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Spec a special build #9139104 08/30/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 My father lives in Western Montana, and wants a special gun for wolf protection when he is out hiking. The protection is not for him, but for his bird dog. Wolves have killed a number of dogs in recent years, so the threat is credible. The performance parameters: able to dispatch a wolf up to 100 yards multiple repeat shot capability very light--4-4.5# would be ideal compact more accuracy than a handgun permits. The only thing I can think of that comes close to meeting these parameters would be built off the AR15 receiver. But this is not my specialty, so I thought I would get some advice. This gun is for carrying, not for high volume shooting, so a polymer lower is certainly a possibility. He has suppressed weapons, so getting a tax stamp is not out of the question. He does not have a .22 can. What would you build? (The more details you can provide, the better.)

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9139129 08/30/14 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Montana .223 with a 4x33 scope, shooting 65 gr. GKs or similar. Not going to make your weight, but plenty light. Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9139144 08/30/14 Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 10,798 Likes: 1 Good Life Esox357 Campfire Outfitter Esox357 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 10,798 Likes: 1 Good Life 1/8 or 1/7 Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) using a 10.5 inch barrel. He will need to get a Class 3 license to own ($200.00 tax stamp and up to 6 months wait) but it would be compact and have the firepower to go with it. I have made hits standing with an eotech to 250 yards on Steel Poppers. For the money I would look at LMT or Daniel Defense. He could also get a 357 Sig in the handgun of his choice for longer shots with a red dot style aiming device on it would be another option?

Re: Spec a special build Esox357 #9139178 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile J jimmyp Campfire Ranger jimmyp Campfire Ranger J Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile 4-5 pounds with an optic wow. Get a tactical solutions X ring 22 LR and 4x fx2!

Re: Spec a special build Esox357 #9139230 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado DD, Wilson, and VooDoo all make 16" lightweight contour AR barrels with mid-length gas that weigh in right at 1 1/2 pounds. Midwest lightweight handguards are 1/2 pound, and very slender. I'm not sure you can 5 pounds, but you can get close. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9139233 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska It'd be tough to beat a Montucky 223 for Utility. I'd happily chop one to 20". It would be NICE,if Woofs chased Dogs and it were a problem!..................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9139249 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado Montucky 223/.243/.257, they would all kill wolves just fine. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9139251 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Seen it................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Rancho_Loco #9139329 08/30/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco Montana .223 with a 4x33 scope, shooting 65 gr. GKs or similar. Not going to make your weight, but plenty light. BTDT. He really wants to push the weight down.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9139336 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska If a Montana is "too heavy",go TacSol or similar Ruger pistole,wearing a good dot............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9139366 08/30/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 He is 79; his pistol shooting is not as fluid as it used to be.

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9139377 08/30/14 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Why chase unobtanium . Lever action 22 mag.. Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9139395 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska The noise would do it. Unless a 22LR Pistole is a Woof Call...then I'll be adding to the herd..............(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Rancho_Loco #9139398 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska All my Rimfire levers are heavier than that................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9139420 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 The only AR lighter than a Montana or close to the same weight, is a S&W 15-22 and I'd rather run a Montana. AR's are not light. Even my Colt light weight weighs 7 lbs with an ACOG on top. I really love AR's but for LW, I carry one of my Montana's.

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9139436 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Just might be guilty of same............. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9139472 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,494 Alaska R rost495 Campfire Kahuna rost495 Campfire Kahuna R Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,494 Alaska light 22 or 22 mag, scoped. Noise will do it and if not a few hits with a 22 mag should get anything out there headed the ohter way. I"d really be thinking pistol myself.... but you noted his shooting is not that good anymore, though I'd offer to think that optics could change that... We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....

Re: Spec a special build rost495 #9139666 08/30/14 Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California RUM7 Campfire Tracker RUM7 Campfire Tracker Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California Maybe something along these lines? http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16d/rifle/ "The Ballpark burgers were free, why not eat them?" - Wabi-

Re: Spec a special build RUM7 #9139811 08/30/14 Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,244 Kansas and Minnesota Mesabi Campfire Regular Mesabi Campfire Regular Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,244 Kansas and Minnesota M1 Carbine, maybe with a rail and red dot, comes close to your criteria. Weight would seem to be the biggest hurdle.

Re: Spec a special build Mesabi #9139924 08/30/14 Joined: Jul 2013 Posts: 598 K kududude Campfire Regular kududude Campfire Regular K Joined: Jul 2013 Posts: 598 Personally, I'd simply buy a Noveske Thunder Ranch and put an Aimpoint H-1 in a Larue LT660 mount. http://www.shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/thunder-ranch-rifle Hey Wait, I own precisely that combination and it is my very favorite AR. I LOVE IT. The all-up weight is a little over six-pounds, which is pretty darned light, considering. Good luck with your choice, kd

Re: Spec a special build rost495 #9140117 08/30/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by rost495 light 22 or 22 mag, scoped. Noise will do it and if not a few hits with a 22 mag should get anything out there headed the ohter way. I"d really be thinking pistol myself.... but you noted his shooting is not that good anymore, though I'd offer to think that optics could change that... I appreciate all of the ideas. What is happening is that wolves interact with off-leash dogs and exhibit all sorts of submissive/"come play" body language, and then then the dog is close enough, they turn on it and kill it. It would be a shame to loose a mature, fully trained GWP that is a member of the family to such an encounter. But it does mean that the fatal encounter could easily be playing out at 50-60 yards, maybe further. It is going to require quick and precise shooting--you don't want your dog falling to friendly fire. I really think a handgun is out, unless your name is Miculek. Early evidence is that wolves in MT are not super shy to gunshots--they have not been hunted enough to have that fear. Popping off a couple of rounds of .22 mag in the hopes that it will run off does not seem to be a robust strategy.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9140553 08/30/14 Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 F Formidilosus Campfire Tracker Formidilosus Campfire Tracker F Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 The point that they are trying to make is that what you want doesn't exist. You're not getting an AR to that weight. A Montana doesn't make weight. Viable options- An 8in 300 Blackout AR. A 10.5in 5.56mm AR either as an SBR or as a "pistol" with a SIG Stabilizing Brace. A Keltec PMR 30 with a red dot.

Re: Spec a special build Formidilosus #9140716 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado Originally Posted by Formidilosus The point that they are trying to make is that what you want doesn't exist. With that in mind, where are you/he most willing to compromise? You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9140750 08/30/14 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana If I have a 22 mag and a wolf at a 100 yards, I'm shooting to kill it, not scare it off. I'm still only seeing unobtanium past the .223 montana. Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: Spec a special build Rancho_Loco #9140788 08/30/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska The Montana is the highest connect percentage................... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9140822 08/30/14 Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 28,605 NE Montana rattler Campfire Ranger rattler Campfire Ranger Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 28,605 NE Montana if you want light weight and range without going pistol ill also say go with a Kimber Montana in 223....my 84M in 260 makes my AR feel heavy as hell and it only has a red dot sight right now....the Montana is a joy to pack.... A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books

Re: Spec a special build rattler #9140833 08/30/14 Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California RUM7 Campfire Tracker RUM7 Campfire Tracker Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California I'll throw out another model.... Only suggestion I've heard that pretty much meets the criteria the OP asked for. Not an AR, but would put the hurt on a wolf out past 100 yrds. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16b/rifle/ "The Ballpark burgers were free, why not eat them?" - Wabi-

Re: Spec a special build RUM7 #9140852 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 54 V ValorsMinion Campfire Greenhorn ValorsMinion Campfire Greenhorn V Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 54 AR pistol with the right components could be your 4lb system. You can put a rubber cover on the end of the buffer tube and put the tube on your shoulder and get by to 100+ yards no problem. Mount a red dot well forward and you are in business. Also the rossi ranch hand would work in a similar way (shouldered with a forward red dot) and weighs 4lbs.

Re: Spec a special build ValorsMinion #9141127 08/31/14 Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas I think I'd rather let my dog get eaten than touch off multiple rounds from a 10.5" AR without earpro. Originally Posted by SBTCO your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling

Re: Spec a special build Formidilosus #9141229 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by Formidilosus The point that they are trying to make is that what you want doesn't exist. You're not getting an AR to that weight. A Montana doesn't make weight. Well, he is beginning to admit that you may well be right. He dug out about a dozen of this lightest rifles last night and weighed them all. He now realizes how much lighter than everything he has--including his .22lr rifles--a sub 5# gun would be. But I have been poking around over on ar15.com. Some guys are building things lighter than I thought possible on that platform. It is hard to read the weight on the scales, but it looks like 3# 15 oz to me. But just the photo is posted--no details on the components that were used. But other components are discussed in the thread in which the photo appears. Lightweight AR15 builds

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141311 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado On the above rifle, the stock and lower and a single piece of plastic. They were selling them a few year back at the gunshows, but you don't see them anymore. They lacked sufficient structural integrity around the receiver pins. In addition, you cannot swap in a collapsible or different pistol grip. The ergonomics on the grip leave something to be desired. The free-float tube is carbon fiber, very light. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141320 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Set him up for success. Hint............. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build RUM7 #9141332 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by RUM7 I'll throw out another model.... Only suggestion I've heard that pretty much meets the criteria the OP asked for. Not an AR, but would put the hurt on a wolf out past 100 yrds. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16b/rifle/ That is a good suggestion. I have thought that the 16c could be handy.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141412 08/31/14 Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 F Formidilosus Campfire Tracker Formidilosus Campfire Tracker F Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 Easy to pass on the Keltec...... You can build a lightweight AR but not 4.5lbs. The garbage receiver that you posted is just that, garbage. Tell him to come off the weight and build/buy something worthwhile.

Re: Spec a special build Formidilosus #9141467 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida deflave Campfire Sage deflave Campfire Sage Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida My 10/22 takedown with Williams rear peep weighs 4 1/2 pounds. Might not kill it. But it probably won't want to play with the dog for awhile. Travis Originally Posted by Geno67 Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Originally Posted by Judman Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. Originally Posted by KSMITH My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house

Re: Spec a special build deflave #9141494 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska You boys are going to talk me into a Montana 223 yet..................(grin) Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9141535 08/31/14 Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 153 Northern Virginia S shooterschmidty Campfire Member shooterschmidty Campfire Member S Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 153 Northern Virginia KelTec sub2000 might be a good option. Mine weighs in at around 5 lbs and 9mm +P out of a 16" barrel is more than adequate for 100 yards. The stock sights are chintsy but functional and you can swap them out for AR type. Adding an optic isn't as easy but can be done with a forearm swap.

Re: Spec a special build shooterschmidty #9141553 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska I'm hoping he loves dad,a BUNCH more than that POS................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Rancho_Loco #9141567 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado The guy is 80 years old. He's not some 16 year old Mall Ninja. What he really needs is a simple reliable bolt action rifle with a quality fixed power scope. Oh wait....someone already suggested that!! Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco Montana .223 with a 4x33 scope, shooting 65 gr. GKs or similar. Not going to make your weight, but plenty light. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9141696 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 7,132 TC1 Campfire Tracker TC1 Campfire Tracker Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 7,132 I'm not a big fan of the poly lowers but the Cavalry Arms Mk II lower is about the best of them and they are light. It does away with a lot of the small items that tended to crack and break on most poly's. The trade off is you give up a lot of choices, stocks, grips, etc. Considering this is going to be a "light duty" application and weight is paramount that lower might not be a bad choice at all. Mate it up with a 14.5" lightweight barrel, upper receiver W/O foward assist, pinned flash hidder, carbon tube and a red dot sight and you would have a handy little rifle.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141744 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming Originally Posted by utah708 My father lives in Western Montana, and wants a special gun for wolf protection when he is out hiking. The protection is not for him, but for his bird dog. Wolves have killed a number of dogs in recent years, so the threat is credible. The performance parameters: able to dispatch a wolf up to 100 yards multiple repeat shot capability very light--4-4.5# would be ideal compact more accuracy than a handgun permits. The only thing I can think of that comes close to meeting these parameters would be built off the AR15 receiver. But this is not my specialty, so I thought I would get some advice. This gun is for carrying, not for high volume shooting, so a polymer lower is certainly a possibility. He has suppressed weapons, so getting a tax stamp is not out of the question. He does not have a .22 can. What would you build? (The more details you can provide, the better.) This is one of the last Carbon 15s built in Lake Havasu after Bushmaster took over Professional Ordnance. It is under 5lbs with the sight. I have around 1000rnds through it with zero problems. The barrel is very nice, it is plenty accurate, and it is very reliable. If you can find one of the Bushmaster marked guns that were made in Lake Havasu I would give it a shot. The current Bushmasters are horrible and the poly used is very weak. My gun is gassed pretty heavy and if you find a used one I would put a new bolt in it and shoot it just enough to be familiar. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: Spec a special build TC1 #9141754 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Terry-- You have violated the fundamental rule of the campfire for answering the original question as posed and you may have to be docked several thousands posts in your count as punishment. Hint...........

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141816 08/31/14 Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 13,234 NC T tjm10025 Campfire Outfitter tjm10025 Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 13,234 NC Given your dad's age and other parameters, Travis' suggestion about the 10/22 seems like the most promising choice, so far, IMO. Two spare mags in the pocket will give him 30 rounds all up. His main job is to keep his dog and himself alive and whole.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141834 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 7,132 TC1 Campfire Tracker TC1 Campfire Tracker Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 7,132 Originally Posted by utah708 Terry-- You have violated the fundamental rule of the campfire for answering the original question as posed and you may have to be docked several thousands posts in your count as punishment. Hint...........

Re: Spec a special build tjm10025 #9141889 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by tjm10025 Given your dad's age and other parameters, Travis' suggestion about the 10/22 seems like the most promising choice, so far, IMO. Two spare mags in the pocket will give him 30 rounds all up. His main job is to keep his dog and himself alive and whole. I would not be too dismissive of his capabilities. MT Dept of Fish, Wildlife and Parks says there are 4 collared grizzly bears hanging out in close proximity to his cabin near the Bob Marshall wilderness, and maybe another 40 uncollared in the general area. When he is up there, he carries a Remington pump 35 Whelen. I do not think we need to demote him to .22lr just yet.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9141964 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 If there was a good dependable AR that weighed in under 5 lbs, I'd have one. But there are certain things I won't settle for and the carbon/plastic guns are not for me. As to John Burns' carbon 15, I've seen too many of those have problems when a friend used to sell them way before BM bought them out. John is lucky he found a good one. But if sub 5 lbs is the goal, I'd look at a Contender carbine in 223 and start drilling holes and scrapping anything non essential.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9142424 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile J jimmyp Campfire Ranger jimmyp Campfire Ranger J Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile First wolves now bears, interesting.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9142439 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 Flyover Country Teal Campfire 'Bwana Teal Campfire 'Bwana Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 Flyover Country Originally Posted by utah708 Originally Posted by tjm10025 Given your dad's age and other parameters, Travis' suggestion about the 10/22 seems like the most promising choice, so far, IMO. Two spare mags in the pocket will give him 30 rounds all up. His main job is to keep his dog and himself alive and whole. I would not be too dismissive of his capabilities. MT Dept of Fish, Wildlife and Parks says there are 4 collared grizzly bears hanging out in close proximity to his cabin near the Bob Marshall wilderness, and maybe another 40 uncollared in the general area. When he is up there, he carries a Remington pump 35 Whelen. I do not think we need to demote him to .22lr just yet. Is this him? Me

Re: Spec a special build Teal #9142594 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 No, he looks more like this... You guys out of places like Georgia need to realize people in the northern Rockies simply need a different situational awareness than all y'all. Nobody is waiting to roll us when we come out of the Piggy Wiggly. But we have jumped four bears near the cabin in the past couple of years. None felt like pushing the issue, so no shot were fired. My father, to use his words, has been "obsessing" about "how light can you go?" I thought there might be some credible answers to that question, not the threadworn 'Montucky or die, hint hint' self-aggrandizing character assassination bullshcit that the campfire has devolved into.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9142613 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile J jimmyp Campfire Ranger jimmyp Campfire Ranger J Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 18,336 Likes: 1 Mobile You bring it on yourself by escalating from wolves to bears, reads like a "but what if there were" bullshite thread. If you got a question don't be an ass and dribble out your requirements, spell it out boy, folks will accommodate.

Re: Spec a special build jimmyp #9142679 08/31/14 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana I didn't assassinate anyone's character. I seriously think the .223 montana fits the bill the best, even if it fails at the rather ridiculous weight requirement. Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: Spec a special build jimmyp #9142681 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 The five specific design criteria in my original post still stand.

Re: Spec a special build jimmyp #9142696 08/31/14 Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,949 Nomad V varmintsinc Campfire Tracker varmintsinc Campfire Tracker V Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,949 Nomad Well a different solution might be in how it is carried. When I went from carrying a rifle in my hands to throwing it in a kifaru gunslinger the weight was not near as important. As my dad has gotten older he also looked at ways of lightening his load without ditching his beloved boat anchor, a Ruger 77. The solution was a gunslinger and treking poles. The combination has put him back on the mountain after sitting out a couple of years due to knee problems. My go to gun when I want something light and handy is my .45 colt lever gun. It wear a huge ghost sight, the kids and wife can all shoot it well and a 280gr LBT goes pretty deep even when only pushed to 1300fps. Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies. "In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper

Re: Spec a special build jimmyp #9142728 08/31/14 Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas I'm confused...Is he a feeble old fella that's just out ambling through the woods with his dog or an elk slaying, Whelen toting man's man? Originally Posted by SBTCO your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9142741 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Montucky 223. Hint. I ain't guessing. That'd be another hint................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9142763 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines kwg020 Campfire Ranger kwg020 Campfire Ranger Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines ONe of these http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu103.htm And one of these http://www.tnarmsco.com/sale-flat-dark-earth-complete-lower-magpul-moe-equipped/ And an A-2 handle and a nylon sling and you are right at 6 lbs. Add the weight of a 20 round magazine and you might be up to 6.5 lbs. It's easy to carry and fast to handle. kwg For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.

Re: Spec a special build kwg020 #9142768 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Pass the Montucky. Hint............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9142779 08/31/14 Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Bluedreaux Campfire Outfitter Joined: May 2007 Posts: 14,653 Texas Originally Posted by utah708 The performance parameters: able to dispatch a wolf up to 100 yards multiple repeat shot capability very light--4-4.5# would be ideal compact more accuracy than a handgun permits. If a 10/22 is not the answer and a Kimber .223 is not the answer, I'm not sure what is. A quality, reliable AR isn't likely to come in under 5#. And if bears are suddenly a possibility I wouldn't be looking at a .223 anyway. Originally Posted by SBTCO your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling

Re: Spec a special build Bluedreaux #9142809 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado So, a 35 Whelen won't kill wolves? You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9142824 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado This afternoon was a Father/Daughter day. We hit a half dozen gun stores and passed a couple dozen rifles through her hands, including the Savage Lady Hunter and some high priced, ultra light AR. Her hands down favorite was a Kimber Classic in .308. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9142836 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska If I had a daughter,I'd get her a Montucky or two............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9142847 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Though I'd draw the line at letting a girl,shoot a Bear................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9142893 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan U UPhiker Campfire Tracker UPhiker Campfire Tracker U Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan If you want something nice and compact, but a little heavier than you'd like, how about a FNH PS90?

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9142896 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado Originally Posted by Big Stick If I had a daughter,I'd get her a Montucky or two............... They were on my list, we just didn't see any today. The Classic was as close as I could come. A .223/.308 set with a pair of gold rings would cover alot of ground. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build jimmyp #9143005 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 22,884 D DakotaDeer Campfire Ranger DakotaDeer Campfire Ranger D Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 22,884 For the situation originally mentioned, I would run a Ruger 77/22 Magnum, in the original stainless/boat paddle configuration, with a Leupie 2.5 Ultralight shooting Federal 50 grain bullets.

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9143020 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming Originally Posted by TWR If there was a good dependable AR that weighed in under 5 lbs, I'd have one. But there are certain things I won't settle for and the carbon/plastic guns are not for me. As to John Burns' carbon 15, I've seen too many of those have problems when a friend used to sell them way before BM bought them out. John is lucky he found a good one. Well I got a good one. I think they had all the bugs worked out about the time Bushmaster did the hostile takeover of the company. Kind of sad that nobody is making something equivalent. My nieces love the thing. Far right. They get to shoot HD ARs too. That thing is about a perfect match to the OP specs. I would love to wade into a wolf pack with it and a 20 round PMAG of 70gr VLDs. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9143042 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines kwg020 Campfire Ranger kwg020 Campfire Ranger Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines Originally Posted by antelope_sniper Montucky 223/.243/.257, they would all kill wolves just fine. Can you hook me up with a link? Thanks kwg For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.

Re: Spec a special build kwg020 #9143062 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan U UPhiker Campfire Tracker UPhiker Campfire Tracker U Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan Originally Posted by kwg020 Originally Posted by antelope_sniper Montucky 223/.243/.257, they would all kill wolves just fine. Can you hook me up with a link? Thanks kwg Kimber Montana. http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84m/montana-3

Re: Spec a special build UPhiker #9143067 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by UPhiker If you want something nice and compact, but a little heavier than you'd like, how about a FNH PS90? Another interesting notion, which I appreciate, but the price might be a bit of a stumbling block. Not that it is out of the question, but I would probably need to make sure there were no equally effective choices at a lower price point before recommending it.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9143086 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines kwg020 Campfire Ranger kwg020 Campfire Ranger Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines Thanks for the link UPhiker. kwg For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9143115 08/31/14 Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 F Formidilosus Campfire Tracker Formidilosus Campfire Tracker F Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 A P90!? Holy crap mall ninjas are real..... You realize the 5.7 is virtually identical to a 22WMR in terminal ballistics, correct?

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9143122 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado Originally Posted by utah708 Originally Posted by UPhiker If you want something nice and compact, but a little heavier than you'd like, how about a FNH PS90? Another interesting notion, which I appreciate, but the price might be a bit of a stumbling block. Not that it is out of the question, but I would probably need to make sure there were no equally effective choices at a lower price point before recommending it. The 16" version is 6 1/2 pounds before optics and a loaded magazine. You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build Formidilosus #9143123 08/31/14 Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan U UPhiker Campfire Tracker UPhiker Campfire Tracker U Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,856 Michigan Originally Posted by Formidilosus A P90!? Holy crap mall ninjas are real..... You realize the 5.7 is virtually identical to a 22WMR in terminal ballistics, correct? Yeah, and I hate the PS90. It seemed like it would fit his scenario. He was worried about wolves (plural), which would probably mean that he wanted a semi and he didn't have the steadiness for a handgun. The PS90 is short, light, handy, overpriced and ugly. Last edited by UPhiker; 09/01/14.

Re: Spec a special build Formidilosus #9143134 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 I have never worked with it, but I thought it was more Hornet/.218 Bee category. I can scarcely imagine the look on peoples' faces when the pleasant looking old guy and the fuzzy dog go ambling past, with a PS90 slung on. That would pucker the Missoula latte crowd. But back to our regularly scheduled programming...I am not an AR15 wonk. I do not know all the tinker toys that are out there that people are using to build them up. I posted this in the AR forum because I wanted to learn from people with more experience how light one could feasibly go in that platform. We are on page 8 of the thread, and I really do not have a much better sense of an answer to that straightforward question than I did before, except that it is possible to go so light as to become questionable in terms of function. It is clear that Big Stick likes the Kimber Montana, but I think we learned that about 15,000 posts ago.

Re: Spec a special build JohnBurns #9143136 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 Oh how I wanted one of those to work and I'm sure some did but Murphy knows where I live.

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9143139 08/31/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Originally Posted by TWR Oh how I wanted one of those to work and I'm sure some did but Murphy knows where I live. And if it is not reliable, it is not worth carrying.

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9143148 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Ever give thought to a 223 Montana? Hint................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9143170 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming Originally Posted by TWR Oh how I wanted one of those to work and I'm sure some did but Murphy knows where I live. What were the issues? Mine cycles fast and a good mag is a requirement. It is gassed pretty heavy but that does not bother me if the mag is up to the task of getting the next round set for feeding. I will replace the bolt at 2000rnds. Like a pistol gased AR it just makes sense. Sure would beat a silly bolt gun if a fellow was neck deep in a wuff pack. Originally Posted by utah708 Originally Posted by TWR Oh how I wanted one of those to work and I'm sure some did but Murphy knows where I live. And if it is not reliable, it is not worth carrying. Yet mine is very reliable. And worth carrying to boot. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: Spec a special build JohnBurns #9143182 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado John, you know a lot more about AR's then I do. What light profile barrel would you choose? You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9143191 08/31/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska I've shot or got,everything thus far cited...save the P90. Pass the Montucky 223 and hold the Fluff. Hint................... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9143204 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 But if one was to pursue the lightest possible AR without compromising too much, start with a 14.5" pencil barrel from BCM or Daniel Defense, pin an extended flash hider on it to save the NFA. Rainier Arms sells a forged aluminum upper with a dust cover but no FA. A standard forged lower too. JP Enterprise sells a low mass carrier, spring and buffer set up that is expensive but will save the most weight. You might need an adjustable gas block to. A carbon float tube if you must or maybe one of the new key mod rails that are supposed to be light. An old plastic carbine stock is about as light as they get. An Aimpoint H1 red dot in a DD mount ought to be good enough. Now that should get you close to 5 lbs, use a 10 rd pmag. Now the downside, you can add about $300 for the JP stuff, cut 100 fps from a 16" barrel, the red dot isn't the best option for older eyes, it's gonna need lots of fine tuning to make the mess run. Approximate price not including the $600 Aimpoint, $1000. My 22-250ai Montana weighs 6.5 lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold on it. Which would you prefer?

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9143250 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming Originally Posted by antelope_sniper John, you know a lot more about AR's then I do. What light profile barrel would you choose? My goto carbine has this contour. 0.750 at the gas block, 0.800 under the handguards, and 0.720 in front of the block. With heavy fluting ( 0.125) this is a 1 lbs 12 ozs barrel in 16 inches. The "pencil weight" profile with a 0.625" gas block is 1 lbs 8 ozs. A standard Med Con barrel without the aggressive fluting will go 2 lbs in the 16 inch configuration. Originally Posted by TWR My 22-250ai Montana weighs 6.5 lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold on it. Which would you prefer? Carrying everyday with a slight chance of use? This. Neck deep in a wolf pack set on the destruction of my dog. This. I have used the Kimber (back when they was made in OR) for canine killin and while it works OK is falls well short of a properly setup AR. Not the best picture but you get the point, canines and the Kimber 84 many years ago. One might say I have been there and done that and the Kimber simply does not stack up. Of course that is just my opinion and should be taken for what it is really worth. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: Spec a special build JohnBurns #9143257 08/31/14 Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado A antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana antelope_sniper Campfire 'Bwana A Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 31,072 Likes: 4 Colorado John, that's very nice. Thanks for sharing. Have you began marketing them yet? You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it. You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell

Re: Spec a special build antelope_sniper #9143270 08/31/14 Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 Wyoming Originally Posted by antelope_sniper John, that's very nice. Thanks for sharing. Have you began marketing them yet? Not much as demand seems to exceed supply. Our Governor, Matt Mead, here in Wyoming is an early adopter. Cody Carroll, Magpul Dynamics, Goofy fellow, Wyo Gov Matt Mead, Wyo Arms Jeff Leisy. Wyoming Governor Matt Mead policing up his brass on the range. It is good to live in a free state. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: Spec a special build JohnBurns #9143446 09/01/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Burns, Your incredible Cluelessness is never not a phuqqing riot and you'd greedily phuqq a blue-haired old lady outta her last nickle. You greasy Snake Oil Salesman are a phuqqing riot! I got killed (7) times last year,by packs of Wolves alone. Laughing...you poor poor STUPID phuqq. Wow................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9143693 09/01/14 Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 13,234 NC T tjm10025 Campfire Outfitter tjm10025 Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 13,234 NC Originally Posted by utah708 Originally Posted by tjm10025 Given your dad's age and other parameters, Travis' suggestion about the 10/22 seems like the most promising choice, so far, IMO. Two spare mags in the pocket will give him 30 rounds all up. His main job is to keep his dog and himself alive and whole. I would not be too dismissive of his capabilities. MT Dept of Fish, Wildlife and Parks says there are 4 collared grizzly bears hanging out in close proximity to his cabin near the Bob Marshall wilderness, and maybe another 40 uncollared in the general area. When he is up there, he carries a Remington pump 35 Whelen. I do not think we need to demote him to .22lr just yet. Did not know that much about your dad. In that case, never mind.

Re: Spec a special build tjm10025 #9143968 09/01/14 Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida deflave Campfire Sage deflave Campfire Sage Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida If the 22LR is not worthy, but you are considering a 5.7, I might suggest a Magnum Research 22 Mag. They weigh around 4.5. Put a Roopold Delta Point on top and you'll be UBER close to all your requirements. If bears are in the mix, tell him to go Randall #1 and a large-ish baggie of cocaine in the possibles bag. Travis Originally Posted by Geno67 Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Originally Posted by Judman Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. Originally Posted by KSMITH My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house

Re: Spec a special build JohnBurns #9143977 09/01/14 Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida deflave Campfire Sage deflave Campfire Sage Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida Burns, You're lookin' pale. Hit the salon! Travis Originally Posted by Geno67 Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Originally Posted by Judman Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. Originally Posted by KSMITH My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house

Re: Spec a special build deflave #9144469 09/01/14 Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 21,805 Likes: 2 Alvadore, Oregon B BMT Campfire Ranger BMT Campfire Ranger B Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 21,805 Likes: 2 Alvadore, Oregon Mackay Sagebrush has built an ultralight Ar that he carries all around ID. Under 6 pounds. He posts photos of it from time to time. BMT "The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II

Re: Spec a special build BMT #9144582 09/01/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Pass the Montucky 223 stuffed with 75A-Max. Along with a HERD of angry Woofs! Hint............. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9144672 09/01/14 Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 21,805 Likes: 2 Alvadore, Oregon B BMT Campfire Ranger BMT Campfire Ranger B Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 21,805 Likes: 2 Alvadore, Oregon Originally Posted by Big Stick Pass the Montucky 223 stuffed with 75A-Max. Along with a HERD of angry Woofs! Hint............. "The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II

Re: Spec a special build BMT #9144706 09/01/14 Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Rancho_Loco Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 20,379 The Bozone, Montana It will work on the lawn lions, too.. Originally Posted by captain seafire I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...

Re: Spec a special build BMT #9144741 09/01/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska I get the feeling,that's it right handy...to be afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess. 'Course I'm on the ropes,as there's no Woofs or Bears here in Kansas................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9144951 09/01/14 Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California RUM7 Campfire Tracker RUM7 Campfire Tracker Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 4,646 Likes: 3 Northern California When Big Stick posts I just pretend it's Rooster Cogburn as played by Jeff Bridges talking. For some reason it makes it slightly more palatable..... "The Ballpark burgers were free, why not eat them?" - Wabi-

Re: Spec a special build RUM7 #9145237 09/01/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Facts is disconcerting for many and Pretend is their only move. Funny how it actually works. Laughing!................ Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9145430 09/01/14 Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 17,101 G gitem_12 Campfire Ranger gitem_12 Campfire Ranger G Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 17,101 Originally Posted by Big Stick Facts is disconcerting for many and Pretend is their only move. Funny how it actually works. Laughing!................ Or you're just a useless douchebag, and a kiddy diddler The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell

Re: Spec a special build gitem_12 #9145690 09/01/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Didn't mean to horn you up. Hell...maybe after another 20yrs of working the Drive-Thru window,you'll be able to afford a used Montana and get your first phuqqing clue. Then again. Laughing!............... Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9146290 09/02/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 "I have used the Kimber (back when they was made in OR) for canine killin and while it works OK is falls well short of a properly setup AR." Using a Kimber made back in OR and using a Montana are two totally different things. I'm quite sure I have several "properly" setup AR's and have been using them for years to kill called coyotes. As well as hunting with several others who thought the AR was needed for multiple coyotes, though most could only run their AR well enough to miss quicker. Montana 204 works on called doubles. Even works on escaping kitty kats. I'm quite sure the Montana in 223 I secured yesterday will perform equally well as the one I have in 22-250ai does on pigs or canines.

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9147279 09/02/14 Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Big Stick Campfire Kahuna Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 58,594 Likes: 10 Paradise,Alaska I hear good things................. Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9153517 09/04/14 Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 22,274 Back in Texas, for good! tex_n_cal Campfire Ranger tex_n_cal Campfire Ranger Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 22,274 Back in Texas, for good! well, if one has a Glock or a 1911 handy: http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php around 5lbs less optics & accessories. Calibers up to 10mm auto. Takes Glock or 1911 mags, depending on model. YMMV, 'cuz I don't know if they actually work, or not. I can vouch that the Kel-Tec Sub2000's are not so hot. "...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

Re: Spec a special build utah708 #9153526 09/04/14 Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 17,101 G gitem_12 Campfire Ranger gitem_12 Campfire Ranger G Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 17,101 Originally Posted by utah708 My father lives in Western Montana, and wants a special gun for wolf protection when he is out hiking. The protection is not for him, but for his bird dog. Wolves have killed a number of dogs in recent years, so the threat is credible. The performance parameters: able to dispatch a wolf up to 100 yards multiple repeat shot capability very light--4-4.5# would be ideal compact more accuracy than a handgun permits. The only thing I can think of that comes close to meeting these parameters would be built off the AR15 receiver. But this is not my specialty, so I thought I would get some advice. This gun is for carrying, not for high volume shooting, so a polymer lower is certainly a possibility. He has suppressed weapons, so getting a tax stamp is not out of the question. He does not have a .22 can. What would you build? (The more details you can provide, the better.) Have you thought about an M1 carbine? The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell

Re: Spec a special build Big Stick #9153651 09/04/14 Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines kwg020 Campfire Ranger kwg020 Campfire Ranger Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines Originally Posted by Big Stick Didn't mean to horn you up. Hell...maybe after another 20yrs of working the Drive-Thru window,you'll be able to afford a used Montana and get your first phuqqing clue. Then again. Laughing!............... Yea you did. Apparently I wasn't listening. I'm seeing Montuckys for around $1200. Is that in the ball park? kwg For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.

Re: Spec a special build kwg020 #9153816 09/04/14 Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 9,031 show me mo R rockchucker Campfire Outfitter rockchucker Campfire Outfitter R Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 9,031 show me mo m1 carbine 5.5 lbs 15 rd mag accurate to a 100 plus FJB

Re: Spec a special build rockchucker #9158812 09/07/14 Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,058 Heart of Tennessee, Plateau of... ColdCase1984 Campfire Tracker ColdCase1984 Campfire Tracker Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,058 Heart of Tennessee, Plateau of... If he's not afraid of tax stamps, I'd start w this upper: BCM LW fluted 11.5-in. Take off the dust cover, remove & plug the forward assist, drop an Aimpoint H1 on it Zeroed for 100 yards at the top of the dot & don't even bother w BUIS. Oughta be good to 200 yards easy. Put it on a good polymer lower, w a decent trigger, and a standard RE sans stock and call it a pistol until the stamp comes in. Get 20-rd Magpuls stuffed w 40-gr pills. More tissue damage for gutshots; let those bastiches suffer... Oughta be Uber Wulf Defense Systema, and feathery enough for a mature shooter who packs a Whelen regularly. I'm about to turn 55 and am doing sumpin similar based on an LMT Mk18 upper I Grabbed after Newtown Panic began. I'm replacing the A2 FH w a Troy Claymore to push the noise away from my raggedy azz remaining hearing. Last edited by ColdCase1984; 09/07/14. �When in doubt, I whip it out.� Uncle Ted

Re: Spec a special build ColdCase1984 #9159134 09/07/14 Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines kwg020 Campfire Ranger kwg020 Campfire Ranger Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 North of Des Moines Originally Posted by ColdCase1984 I'd he's not afraid of tax stamps, I'd start w this upper: BCM LW fluted 11.5-in. Take off the dust cover, remove & plug the forward assist, drop an Aimpoint H1 on it Zeroed for 100 yards at the top of the dot & don't even bother w BUIS. Oughta be good to 200 yards easy. Put it on a good polymer lower, w a decent trigger, and a standard RE sans stock and call it a pistol until the stamp comes in. Get 20-rd Magpuls stuffed w 40-gr pills. More tissue damage for gutshots; let those bastiches suffer... Oughta be Uber Wulf Defense Systema, and feathery enough for a mature shooter who packs a Whelen regularly. I'm about to turn 55 and am doing sumpin similar based on an LMT Mk18 upper I Grabbed after Newtown Panic began. I'm replacing the A2 FH w a Troy Claymore to push the noise away from my raggedy azz remaining hearing. I posted this earlier. I have two of these lowers and I am happy with them. ONe of these http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu103.htm And one of these http://www.tnarmsco.com/sale-flat-dark-earth-complete-lower-magpul-moe-equipped/ And an A-2 handle and a nylon sling and you are right at 6 lbs. Add the weight of a 20 round magazine and you might be up to 6.5 lbs. It's easy to carry and fast to handle. kwg For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.

Re: Spec a special build kwg020 #9180238 09/15/14 Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 20,554 Alaska AkMtnHntr Campfire Ranger AkMtnHntr Campfire Ranger Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 20,554 Alaska They are a tad bit heavier than 5lbs but why not a Ruger Mini 14? Or a Montucky 223, I hear they work well too. lol That's ok, I'll ass shoot a dink. Steelhead

Re: Spec a special build AkMtnHntr #9180360 09/15/14 Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida deflave Campfire Sage deflave Campfire Sage Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 South Florida You could buy this and get a Sig Brace: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...shmaster_Carbon_15_Type_97_S#Post9179604 Travis Originally Posted by Geno67 Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Originally Posted by Judman Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. Originally Posted by KSMITH My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house

Re: Spec a special build deflave #9180721 09/15/14 Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 T TWR Campfire Outfitter TWR Campfire Outfitter T Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,181 Did I mention...

Re: Spec a special build TWR #9287423 10/27/14 Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 U utah708 OP Campfire Outfitter OP utah708 Campfire Outfitter U Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 7,578 Just to close the loop in this project... I ordered a Professional Ordnance off gunbroker; it came out to be right at $600 after shipping and paperwork. I put a small Zeiss red dot on it, and with a 10 rd Magpul magazine, it weighs 4# 11 oz. Based on John Burns' thread comments and some PMs with him about it being "overgassed," I decided to slow down the cycling speed by loading some 40 gr bullets and a light charge of BL-C2 using .222 data. So far, with over 50 rounds through it, there has not been a single failure to function. For very niche application, I think it will work out well.