Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Shot group diagnosis?

Not long range yet, trying to help a buddy out. He sent me this picture of a 10 shot group by a new shooter he's mentoring. First six shots touching last four are the fliers. Rifle is a .243 Win bench/LR varmint rifle that weighs nearly 13 lbs shooting 115 grain BN coated DTAC, and shots are at 100 yards. I'm thinking new shooter lost concentration after the first six, he thinks it's copper fouling. He asked help with diagnosis but is in MO and I'm in CO.



Rifle is a Stevens 200 with McGowen 1:7 twist heavy varmint barrel bedded to HS Precision stock, scope is a 6.5-20X44 Vortex Viper. I know he's using RL22 just don't know the charge. I sold my buddy this rifle and I was shooting .4 MOA at 300 yards for five and had no problems ever ringing MOA steel targets or prairie dogs at more than twice the distance. However, I was shooting 115 grain Berger VLD .130 off lands.

My diagnosis is to load up more and go shoot.



Travis

It's easy to test.

Send the rifle to the range with a different shooter.

If groups remain large, it's not the shooter.

Clean repeat test.

If groups shrink, it just needed cleaning.

This is one of those questions that can only be answered on the range.

Proficiency can't be borrowed nor purchased.

McGowen,HS and Vortex...are far closer to my last choices,than my first,due their relative sanctity...................

Barrel heat

Both the Indian and the arrow................

"New shooter"...NUFF said...

My thoughts exactly.

I'll buy Indian but I don't buy the arrow. I get it's not your favorite 105 grain Hornady, but from what I shot of the DTAC in that rifle they were consistent.

what good is a ten shot group? Trying to get the barrel too hot to touch?

Dude why in the world 10 shot groups. I would never put that much heat in my barrel like that. Is the guy trying to fight a war or something. What in the world is the purpose. I am not surprised at all by the group. Tell him to stop it ain't good on the barrel

SMK's are more favorable on paper,than they are Critters. The bullet ain't the weakest link in the chain.

Glass,mounts,barrel and stock are...though in no particular order...............

Is not the answer obvious by looking at the picture?

Certainly not................

So you're actually talking bow not arrow, I figured. So I'll ask my questions in your order.

Glass, I didn't particularly care for but I didn't hate either. Had a wide plex reticle which was the biggest downfall to me. I would have preferred MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL reticle and adjustments but that's why it went down the road. It did track well and always returned to zero at the yardages I played at. So what's your biggest problem with the Vortex? I'll be trying your super chicken next rifle but I'm more interested in the 3-9 and 3-15 scopes.

Mounts were EGW rail and Warne rings, I know you like Warne so what's wrong with EGW?

McGowen barrel, they had it in stock just had to wait two weeks for them to contour. They throated it for the DTAC bullets just like I asked at 2.80 COAL and it fed great from the magazine even with Berger 115 grain bullets. What's your beef with McGowen and how many have you tried?

Stock was HS Precision PST114 that I picked up used, other than being heavy it was well made and ergos were good from bench and bi-pod for me. So what's the weak link in the stock design that you see?

Keep in mind I never was trying to keep this rifle a light weight, I just used it to bang steel mostly out to 600 yards. I did take it to a prairie dog town for one trip where I shot a coyote and half a dozen pasture poodles with it. Coyote was just north of 650 yards.

Why not 10 shots? I don't personally shoot 10 shot groups, but don't see a problem if someone wants to. Besides those 10 shots could have taken an hour or more to shoot, my buddy didn't say.

Barrel was free floated with plenty of room, no chance of it making contact with the stock. The action is bedded to stock with no bedding forward of the recoil lug. Oversized squared recoil lug and barrel nut were used as well.

I seriously doubt 10 shots even if in rapid succession are going to do much damage to the barrel.

To have even a slight chance(which is an illusion),you'll want to start where I started,which is as follows:

"Proficiency can't be borrowed nor purchased.

McGowen,HS and Vortex...are far closer to my last choices,than my first,due their relative sanctity..................."

I mentioned Indian and arrows.

Hint..............

So you won't tell me your reasons for disliking barrel, stock, or optics? I don't question your abilities to launch projectiles. Other than not being blessed off by Stick, I'm going to have to go with you've never used any of the stock, optic, and barrel mentioned. So since you've never used them, they don't meet your seal of approval.

Please regale us with how exactly 10 shots "ain't good on the barrel"? Also I'd be curious how you came up with that "knowledge"?


Thank you.

Couple of things.

1. You don't have to get your barrel hot to shoot a ten shot group.

2. Three shots is a very poor predictor of where the next bullet is going to go.

You'll have to see it for yourself to believe it so take your favored rig and load and shoot a three shot group. Let the barrel cool and shoot another at the same POA so you're stacking groups. Repeat until you have ten shots at the same POA. Report back and let us know if the ten shot group is as small as the 1st three.

I have a prediction. It won't be. Three shots can tell you if you have a poor load but it will not tell you if you have a good one.

John

Tell me how heat is "good" for a barrel?

I don't understand the discussion...you let the damned thing cool down when it gets too hot.

Amen Hondo. It's apparent many guys here have never participated in any "slow fire" comps where you put 10 shots downrange. 10 shots in (lets say) 10 minutes is not going to hurt the barrel any more than 10 cold bore shots on a warm day. Id also bet taylorce1's rifle is extremely capable with the right person behind it. I'd also add that you don't need a matchgrade bullet to shoot sub moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards.



Bingo Bob. You put it so elegantly....

Tell me how 10 whole shots is "bad" for a barrel?

You guys sure have lots of knowledge. Must be from all the shooting you do.

Shooting will burn up a good barrel.

How are you going to know if you have a good barrel if you don't shoot it? Barrels are consumable IMO just like welding rod. You can't become a good wrlder without burning some sticks.

Show me where I said 10 shots would hurt a barrel................

No problem.

McGowan are corncob rough schit spouts,of schit stress relief and walk like crazy. HS is a POS handle,due both ergo's and materials. Vortex sucks heavy ass,due it's limited adjustment and dog schit tracking.

You be certain to tell yourself,I've never shot a rifle.

Laughing!...............

I'd take 3-shots of POA/POI correlation in a SOUND rifle(the POS cited,assuredly is NOT) and get the warm/fuzzy with the trio slamming targets of interest at say 500,700 and 1000.

'Course,100yd paper punching bores me to tears and offers nothing of substance in reflection of the platform's relative abilities/attributes.

Hint...............

I should have said it depends on the cartridge. if your shooting a 223, 10 rounds is nothing. same with 308. however with an overbore round like the 243 imo its not a good thing. Now if you don't care much for the barrel then by all means its your barrel, cook it. I have a 243 ai with a 5r krieger barrel. I would never put 10 rounds down it all at once. why??? because I like the barrel too much!!! its the best barrel I have ever owned.

I said there is no place for a 10 shot group, I do fire groups like that but ONLY during ladder testing to find a load. I generally only load 8 of a given powder with different charges. I also try to break it up with 4 shots quickly then I let the barrel cool a bit and fire the last 4.

someone said 3 shot groups don't show you anything, bull crap. once you have a load its a great way to check your loads and your zero. 10 shots introduces too much variables if ultimate accuracy is your goal. you get an insane amount of barrel heat. go ahead grab your 243 barrel after 10 rounds and tell me whats up. put another way there is simply no reason to fire a 10 shot group all of the same bullet and powder charge. I have never shot at an animal more than about 3 times. after I have also hit something 3 times I am looking for a new challenge.

its your barrel do what you want. I am not doing it with mine, at least one I care about.

I have ZERO qualm whistling more than 10 through my 1-8" Brux 6-284...with 105's at Warp Nine.

It's a phuqqing barrrel,MADE for shooting.

Hint.................

For more conversation,I've seen alotta 200rd+ 243AI days...simply forming.

You'd be in the fetal position sucking your thumb,if you had an inkling!...............

See what was so hard about that? My small sampling off McGowen, HSP, and Vortex didn't mirror yours, but we don't always have the same exact experience. I'm glad you finally shared yours.

However, no where did I boldly state you never shot a rifle. I just had to push a button to get you to open up.

Funnier than phuqq,that you could "think" I was somehow "unfamiliar" with such things?!?

In fairness...HS do make a fair barrel and I've never failed one of their 1st Gen DBM's.................

10 round groups with a 243w will just destroy the barrel.....

This is some funny shidt..Glad I stopped by today.

To the OP, use the McGowen as a tomato stake, and use the vortex to drive the POS..Life is too short.

You're gonna wear that barrel out prematurely due to excessive heat build up. I fire two shots and let my barrel cool no matter how large the group number is.

One six shot group I fired took six days: One shot every morning for six days. I know where that rifle is going to place its cold bore shot.

Stop it!

Yep...setting that POS in the house for hours/days between shots,REALLY lets a guy "know".

I'm phuqqing crying I'm laughing soooooooooo hard!...............

She sets that POS on the couch next to her and guns CBS "confirmations",between episodes of Oprah and martha Stewart...to pinpoint it's Emotional Stability in the inclement weather of those storms.

I'm HOWLING!.............

I didn't think you were, I just wanted the method behind your madness. It took a little prodding but I got it. You just need to expound on your feelings from time to time.

The method is simplistic.

Shoot,shoot,shoot and shoot.

Roughly in that order.

Hint...............

that is the main reason I like this barrel so much there is no difference between cold bore. It also shoots the same with a clean barrel, no fouler needed.

You gals really get after it!

Laughing!..............

Stick,
I am thinking The Fire needs a "Comedy" topic for you to rant on. You missed your calling. You crack me up! By any chance do you have the complete collection of all of the Moe, Larry, and Curley episodes of the Three Stooges? Just asking.
Also, what other topics are you as learned on as you are rifles, ammo, rifle components, optics, shooting technique, ballistics, hunting, bullet performance , etc.
Have you ever given any consideration to opening up a counciling business. With your "never at a loss for words" attribute you would be an instant success.
BTW a good way to "have to" replace a barrel (if a guy doesn't like it and just wants a good excuse to get rid of it) is to find a load about 2 grains over what's in anyone's manual and spend at afternoon at the range with said barrel and never let it get too cooled off. You can tell when this procedure is successful when you clean it and the bore brush feels like it's running over a bead blasted area about 4" in front of the chamber.
Screw her off and get another one.
Dave
Oh and I cannot wait for your response

10 rounds, casual pace, probably 5-6 minutes total.







Reckon I better get a new barrel in the pipeline...

I "clean" barrels with bullets. Hint.

Never have bought a barrel,not to use and could never shift my brain into a low enough gear...to get there.

Some of you are really "lucky".

Laughing!....................

I need to roll more video.

Clueless Whining Kchunts the World over...would come unhinged..................(grin)

No worries, all my rigs have a half inch guarantee. I'm sure its all good.

What's the point?

All conditions were absolutely identical each morning?

If the point of impact was 1/2" different, the rifle would be sold?

All I can say is you haven't spent much time in a dog town. On an active day you'll be hard pressed to keep a barrel cool on multiple rifles.

My comment on 10 shots had nothing to do with ruining a barrel etc. The first 6 were going into the same hole, so why shoot 4 more? What were you trying to prove at 100 that the first 6 didn't?

It is boring enough shooting at 100 yards, without prolonging it.

IDK if they were trying to prove anything other than letting the guy shoot. I just know they were at the local 100 yard range. They have to drive at least an hour to get to a range they can shoot to 700 on.

So you can go on the internet and write stuff like "I know where that rifle is going to place its cold bore shot."

taylorce, it was all tongue in cheek. I've shot a 10+ shot group or two.

Sorry, I don't hang in this forum much. Its a little too passionate for my tastes usually.

Thanks for clarifying that for him.

You're welcome. It was the least I could do for him.

I reckon it's plum comforting,that zero ain't lost from the kitchen,to the living room.

Laughing!........................

Don't stop guys I'm (eyes rolling) learning so much!

p.s.
More pictures please, after I get tired of reading I like to scroll through the pictures.

I'm not trying to leave good barrels on rifles for those who will either inherit or purchase them on my death.

Like my organs when I die, I hope they are all worn out!

Tough to top kitchen counter zero sanctity,after belly crawling from the living room...through all that shag carpet for a week.

Laughing!.................

I wouldn't swear on a Bible, but I'm pretty sure in 33 yrs of shooting, started when 10, I've only had 2 centerfire rifles lose zero, and both were when the Tasco World Class 3-9's came unglued!

I don't baby them, but careful not to go knocking them into things scope first and since the Tasco's have bought Leupold, Bausch and Lomb (sp?) and SWFA chicken scope.

Mike

Do not go mocking 'worm's Shag Ghillie.

Laughing!.................

10: Cold and kinda warm over 5 minutes or so. When it comes to BG, where the rifle puts them will not be the reason for success of failure.

battue. Pre 64's don't shoot that good

FWT to boot and a 1.5-5. Had to be luck.

Sir,

Light barrels do NOT shoot!................

Yep. I'm going to slap my 30-06 fwt into a swirly soon and see if it shoots as good as your 308. Damn, it might even look just like your 308 too.

1" grid?

John

Winchester "good"..................(grin)

Yes. To both....

Poor rifle. You should put some Leupold QR's on it since you keep changing scopes . Oh, wait it looks like it does have QR's . I think the first time I saw it, it had a 6x leupy, then a 3x, now a 1.5-5??? It's this one I'm presuming:



Very nice rifle!!!

Never mix TSX's with CnC's....with a "burnt up" barrel....

It's ALL about the contour................(grin)

That be it. Flipp'n scopes. Although this flipping is on another .308W



Sometimes I even use it in the real world:








Didn't heat this other Win .308W up as much.



Even use it on occasion:



I tell you, I'm wasting those barrels. I better start placing them in a saving plan�.

Great pictures buddy. My swirly is similar to yours, but the pattern is different (pre 64 montecarlo). A good guy here wanted it to go to me and made me a deal I could not turn down. Hopefully I'll have it by early next week.. Your rifles are tack drivers. My old rifle only shoots like this...:




Damn battue, I like those Leupold QR's. Blackdog1 was showing me a set on his pre 64 fwt '06 a while ago and they look like the catz azz. I may eventually end up going this route as well...

+1
That was the first thing I thought of after seeing the picture. One of the hardest thing to get a new shooter to do is exercise patience between shots and give the barrel time to cool. I struggle with this when my son (18 years-old) is at the trigger. Normally they just want to shoot.

.243 win will heat up a barrel quickly if not given ample time to cool. Even the heavier barrels. Hot pipes do nothing good for groups. Doesn't do the throat any favor's either.