Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 30-06 AI

So I am going to have one of my 30-06's rebarreled to a 24" tube. Is the AI version worth it? Would appreciate your thoughts and comments.

No.

You'll get an insignificant amount of velocity benefit, but have to fire form cases. You'll likely have to modify tried and true 30-06 loads. You'll need new dies. Feeding would probably be fine with both cases.

The only benefit I could even remotely consider would be if you just couldn't stand trimming cases, as AI cases require less trimming.

Or you could rebarrel to a 270 and have a real flat shooting hard hitting cartridge

Have AI w/the throat let out.

If did over again...just to omit case forming I'd keep the standard case and let out the throat to shoot long bullets without sacrificing case capacity (providing you have the action for it)

The 165s and down aren't helped...period

OTOH, in an unmolested action, the AI will give you 4g more capacity which will offset the loss of case capacity when deep seating heavies

Well the NO's have it for a win. I will stick with the good ole tried and true, plain jane, work horse, boring, get er done, do all, 30-06 Springfield.

Thanks for the replies.

Look at the 30 gibbs

Yeah, you will be just fine with the standard 30-06 in a 24 inch barrel.
I have a 24 inch #2 contour on mine, shoots great.

Maybe you should reword your question to address those who actually have and shoot a 30-06AI - concur with tomk - not much difference in the lighter bullets but significant with the heavier stuff - throat it to seat 180's way out and you'll be impressed.

The "significant gain" is about the same as another inch or two of barrel length. In other words, a 22" 30-06 AI should be similar to a 24" 30-06. This can also be read as "not enough to matter".

^^^^^^^


This.

then add the 2" of barrel to the AI

The '06AI is great for heavy bullets. If you are interested in shooting 180's, 190's or 200's it will damn near match the ballistics of the 30WSM without having to buy a short fat action.

I worked with one for a while, and with heavy bullets, it will do everything the Nosler manual says it will.

Why? It won't change anything except the final two digits of the chronograph readout. Certainly won't make any difference in the real world.

in the real world...why have anymore than a single caliber & cartridge for all big game in NA?

I will not be pushing a 24 inch 30-06 anywhere close to 2985 fps with a 180, now would I run it to 2758 with a 200. Yet both loads are listed in the Nosler manual.

The caveat is, they used a 24 inch tube to do it. If I still thought I needed a 30 cal, it would be wearing 26 inches and we could add 40 fps to those numbers.

This is pretty basic stuff here guys. The 30-06 is limited to 60,000 PSI by SAAMI, while the Ackley is not. That's where you are seeing a significant portion of the gain.

Do the math on the case capacity difference (4 to 1 rule), and you come up with around 20-25 fps difference at equal pressure. In other words, an inch of barrel length.

I was thinking of having my old 06 reworked for shooting exclusively the heavier bullets; primarily the 208 amax and the SMK's over 200. I even thought of a 1/9 twist to experiment with the SMK 240's.

So y'all are saying an AI with long throat is good for that?

Put a 7mm 9 twist barrel on it chambered in 280 Ackley...nosler brass, lee collet die wilson seater, go kill things !

that be my thinking...not a good sign generally speaking, for the wallet

Gee, Ingwe must have gone to bed, so let me say it for him:

If we all lived in the real world modern cartridge development would have ended with the 7x57 mauser

Yup; it will be a reworked 06 or a 280AI before it is all over.

Nonetheless years ago Montanna Marine posted pics and reports of his tactical 06 he was using to fling long distance and the idea of an 06 purpose built for long distance kinda grabbed my mind. Loading for the RUM kinda gave me the revelation that up beyond the 06 case efficiency seems to fall of dramatically.

I am thinking that a purpose built long range 06 with heavy bullets can beat a 280AI

I would enjoy exploring that debate.

I think the B/C of the 240smk is over 7.

I would prefer it over a WSM.

But that is just me.

A great deal of what influences my thinking these days is component availability and cost. O6 cases and 30 cal bullets; can't get much more generic than that.

Do the math on the capacity of 7mm Rem Mag vs 7mm Wea. You should get about the same 25 fps velocity difference. In the real world, it just ain't so.

If it was just about case volume and maximum pressure, the Nosler load manual would list a higher max velocity for the 165 than for the 180.

Powder choice and pressure curve duration also matter.

The 7 Mag difference is due to freebore.

Not sure why you're so caught with the Nosler manual - barrels differ. Idiosyncrasies exist within any manual. When I run both through Quickload, it comes out with very small differences between the 06 and 06 AI, just as the math figures. There's no magic here.

For that use, I would choose a 300 Wea length action and mag box.

Just to clear things up, I will be mostly shooting 165 gr bullets out of this rifle. I have no intention of shooting the heavies, that is why I own a 300 WBY.

That number is almost 200 fps higher than I have ever seen posted for the 7 RM (from a source I could trust)

If you can convince me that a Wea throat is good for 200 fps, I will have one machined into every rifle I own.

Holy Schit the 30-06AI would hit 3100 fps with 180's with a Wea throat, were that the case.

In that case you would be better off with a standard 30-06.

Or a 280. grin

The AI chambers make no significat improvement in anything.

There is a loss however.

You will loose:

A. Resale value
B. Reliability that all ammo will fit that odd chamber.

I would not bother with a 24" 30-06.

Why don't you go ahead and tell everyone what the Nosler manual shows for a difference between the 7 Rem Mag and the 7 Wby with 140s, since you were so hot on it earlier.

Nosler #4 shows 3340 with RL 22 in 7RM it shows 3336 with RL 22 in 7Wea. Does that negate John's findings with MRP?


There is not a lot of published data from the major companies for the 30-06AI. The Nosler manual is the only one I own which shows the cartridge.

I have loaded for the cartridge and got results very similar to those shown by Nosler.

That is why I refer to it as a source when discussing the '06 AI.

Not necessarily, but what it does tell me is if I have a 26" 7 Rem Mag, and load it to 65,000 psi instead of the 61K SAAMI max average, it's going to be a lot less than 200 fps difference.

Nosler also shows data for 30-06 reloader 22 62 grains = 2812, H4831 62 grains = 2754, IMR 4350 56.5 grains = 2734 while their 30-06 Ackley loads are reloader 22 62 grains = 2985 fps, H4831 60 grain = 2798 fps, IMR 4350 56.5 grains = 2835. Both have 24 inch barrels. Must be the magic of the Ackley that gives you more velocity with the same or less powder charge of the parent case

It's magic! No explanation necessary.

bigswede358;
Good evening to you sir, I hope this finds you well and thanks for the reply on my elk antler query.

I personally "like" the AI concept and have been shooting a .22-250AI since the mid '90's, have loaded for our daughter's .205AI for 6 or 7 years now and have played briefly with a .30Gibbs. As well over the years I've loaded for a smattering of standard .308, .30-06, .308 Norma Mag and .300 Win. Mag rifles, so with that in mind I'd offer the following.

All things being equal and of course they seldom are, I've found John Barness' 1 to 4 ratio to be pretty much spot on when predicting velocity potential in a cartridge. Years ago John wrote that one can expect a 1% velocity increase for every 4% case capacity increase - again all things being equal.

If folks are beating the velocity numbers significantly then it's my belief they are doing so with more pressure. Truly there seems to be some small anomalies with individual rifles, but that's been my overall impression.

I'd make a bit of an educated guess too that longer barrels make AI's "all they can be" in a few instances - so the 26" Douglas on my .22-250AI will run with most predicted .220 Swift figures in the manuals I've got.

That makes good sense though since as close as I'm able to measure the .22-250AI cases have about a grain more capacity than the .220 Swift cases I had on hand.

Lastly the 24" barreled .30 Gibbs - with the H4831 I tried it with - ran almost exactly to the predicted numbers so as another poster mentioned, the last two numbers on the chronograph were all that changed.

I do realize these are small samples and not an exhaustive study, but hopefully it was somewhat useful information to you or someone out there tonight.

All the best to you this fall, good luck on your rifle build whichever way you decide and on your hunts this fall too.

Dwayne

Dwayne,

Thanks for the information. I have made up my mind to just go standard 30-06. I will be putting a new take off remington barrel on an existing 30-06 that currently has a 22" barrel. The current barrel is a slow barrel, I've tried different powders, seating depths, bullets, you name it. 165 gr barely reach 2700 fps and my 200 grain loads average 2475. It shoots good just slow, in fact there is only about 20fps difference with the same load with it and one of my 20" barreled 30-06's. Just thought it would be fun to run a 24" on a 30-06 and see what it could do.

Good luck to you this fall as well. My most anticipated hunt is my wife's Shiras moose hunt in 3 weeks.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3345217/1

It seems you just cannot find anybody that gets all excited over AI'n the O6 or going 30-Gibbs.

I dunno know about anyone else, but the number of times I have sat down with a new factory hunting rifle and had the loads jive exactly with what the manuals say I should be getting velocity wise ,have been infrequent. There is always some kind of difference that we can talk about when it comes to this cartridge or that giving as much or more velocity,but I have been disappointed more often than not when I expected a smaller case to do the job of a larger one.

I think this is because of the differences in barrels and throats more so than anything else (and maybe likely the manuals are using different powder lots,tight pressure barrels, different barrel lengths, etc).....whatever.

You can play games with barrels,lengths, and throats in your custom barrels and chambers,use some miracle powder, load to higher pressures,and get some cartridges to look as good as some larger one's, or better than they should.I have generally found this approach unsatisfactory and I have done plenty of it.

But IME at the end of the day the only really certain way to insure you will get to a certain velocity level is to buy more case capacity in the form of a larger cartridge.

With very few exceptions (usually having to do with inefficiency),I have never failed to see this approach work to perfection.

Personally I would run the 06 "as is" and if I wanted "more" I'd grab a 300 WSM or Win Mag...this will end all speculation and eliminate a lot of drama....OTOH maybe speculation and drama is what this is all about.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7225907/1

Some good info.

I am going to be the odd man out here and say go for it. I firmly believe if you have got an itch, you should try to scratch it. miles

I built a 30-06 AI back in 1995. a Rem 700 30-06 that I bought in 1973. I shot that barrlel out. Wanted something different. Had a Shilen with a 23.5" bbl put on it. Also bought a Chronograph about that time. Had read all I could about the 30-06AI. Worked up loads using a variity of 180 bullets and different powders. Had lots of fun, and learned alot. (dont believe every thing you hear or read). Ended up with a load using IMR 4350, standard primers, and a velocity of 2934fps with the 180 bullet. Not pushing it either.
All rifles are a rule to their own. Loading manuals are good guide lines to follow. You can compute all you want. like trajectory, velocity will be what it is from your rifle. Dont trust the calculations. Get a chronograph,ruler,and a place to shoot , and check it out in the real world. As a old Iron worker told a Engineer one time when the drawings and figures dident work out. " You can draw a A$$ hole on the paper, but you cant make it [bleep]".

I'm with ya.

If you're going to re-tube, why not. Costs are the same. You can get quite a bit of shooting done with just a cheap Lee Collet die for the parent case and a good seater.

I have one and like it a lot. Nothing magic but I get 2950 with 165 Nosler PT out of a 22" barrel and it shoots very well.

If you want one build one, you only go around once I hear.

I think the 30-06 AI might get you an additional 50-75 fps with heavier bullets at equal pressures but not much improvement for lighter bullets. My 30-06 factory barrel Rem 700 mountain rifle with a 22" tube gets 2858-2893 fps with 165 grain bullets and 59.0 grains of H4350.

You will loose the following with a AI.

1. Barrel will be set back so it will not fit the stock bedding or forend.
2. New expensive loading dies.
3. Expense to have the new chambering stamped on the barrel.
4. Resale ease and value.
5. Waste of bullets, powder, primers fireforming.

I've had 2 AI'S and traded both off but keep and use my Gibb's.

1. ? Its a rebarrel.
2. 30-06 Lee Collet dies are cheap. Seaters for a '06 are everywhere.
3. ? See No.1
4. If you build rifles to sell, yes.
5. It's called shooting. Kinda the whole point.

I'll be the last to say people should AI everything, but if ya want to, there is little down side.

Never had an O6 AI, but have a few others. Except for the 250AI, few really move the velocity meter enough to matter. Frankly if your striving for velocity, there are lots of bigger 30's, your 300wby near the top of the list.

For me the beauty of the AI's is in low case stretch. With an AI if you keep the pressure under control, you can use a collet die and rarely ever trim. Every now and then I bump the shoulder with a body die and trim but its rare. This makes more sense as the cost per case gets higher, but O6 brass is fairly easy to find and cheap.

I wouldn't AI it, if I wanted more than an O6 could deliver and less than the wby.. Id trade for a 300wsm (or a H&H if that lights your fire)

Or, the 30-06 JDJ from SSK Industries. Same, same.

Very good read right there. I think I am going to stay with the standard 30-06. It seems the AI really shines with the heavies. I plan on shooting up a supply of 165 BT out of this rifle. As I said before I have a 300 WBY that I shoot 200 gr bullets out of.

Thanks again for all the information and opinions.