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I bought an Interarms Mark X in 25-06. Couldn't get it to shoot with 115-120 grain bullets, as targets showed keyholing. Finally had the bright idea to check the twist rate: 1 in 14! (Yes, I've checked the rate multiple times).
The intended use was for deer hunting. Is there any chance I could salvage it for that purpose with shorter, flat based bullets? I can't seem to find info on how long various 87 grain bullets are, for example, so looking for any guidance here.
Thanks.
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I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
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Try the Speer 100 gr hot core. Worked very well in a 1-14 savage I had, at slower velocity than you'll be getting. Should work fine for your purposes.
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I had thought of the TTSX as well, but figured it was too long to stabilize.
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Try the Speer 100 gr hot core. Worked very well in a 1-14 savage I had, at slower velocity than you'll be getting. Should work fine for your purposes. Do you happen to know the length of the 100 gr hot core? Thanks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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The 80 TTSX isn't going to stabilize. The 100-grain Speer should (average length is about .94") as well as the 100-grain Hornady Interlock (.98").
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Thanks Mule Deer. I have been playing around with the Berger stability calculator, but didn't have the lengths of certain bullets. Should I keep those bullets under 2800 per the cup-n-core, rule-of-thumb?
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What about the 90 grain Sierra HPBT? Their .308 165 grain version of that is supposed to be pretty tough. If the .257 90 is as well it might make a terrific deer bullet.
Mathew 22: 37-39
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I'm guessing it's too long with the BT but can't find the length online.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Have you considered the 87 grain Speer Hot Cor? There isn't a rule saying you have to propel it at full 25-06 power.
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Have you considered the 87 grain Speer Hot Cor? There isn't a rule saying you have to propel it at full 25-06 power. Agreed. Just want decent performance on deer under 300 yards. I do have some h4895 and could do a reduced load if it's suitable.
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Try those 87 g hot-cores, I bet they stabilize for you.
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gotsarock,
That's the Miller twist formula, generally considered the most reliable available--and what I've been playing with here to come up reasonable answers. It looks like any bullet under an inch long will stabilize to a certain extent, depending on conditions, and my guess is the 90-grain Sierra HPBT is under an inch, since the 100-grain MatchKing is about 1.09" long.
On a more material level, I've had the 100-grain Speer Hot-Cor stabilize fine even in cold weather at 2000 feet or so in eastern Montana, from the 1-14 twist of a .250 Savage (and the formula says it should, if marginally).
In my experience, one reason the 87 sometimes shoots well in 1-14 twists and the 100-grain doesn't the supposed 1-14 twists of older Savage 99's varied somewhat, because they were rifled on sine-bar machines. Some were apparently rifled on Mondays and Fridays, because I once owned an 99 .250 that turned out to have about a 1-15 twist. It would NOT shoot any 100-grain bullet, even the Speer, though it did fine with the 87. But all the other 1-14 twist .250's I've owned would shoot the 100 Speer and, often, the 100 Hornady Spire Point pretty well.
I've got enough of both of those 100-grain bullets to spare a little sampler pack if you want to try 'em.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Try them at full or close to velocity as well as reduced the higher velocity might stabilize them where the lower won't.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Mule Deer. I don't understand why they put such a slow twist on this barrel, but I'm glad you and others have good suggestions on getting around the problem. I'll send you a PM on the sampler pack. Much appreciated. gotsarock,
That's the Miller twist formula, generally considered the most reliable available--and what I've been playing with here to come up reasonable answers. It looks like any bullet under an inch long will stabilize to a certain extent, depending on conditions, and my guess is the 90-grain Sierra HPBT is under an inch, since the 100-grain MatchKing is about 1.09" long.
On a more material level, I've had the 100-grain Speer Hot-Cor stabilize fine even in cold weather at 2000 feet or so in eastern Montana, from the 1-14 twist of a .250 Savage (and the formula says it should, if marginally).
In my experience, one reason the 87 sometimes shoots well in 1-14 twists and the 100-grain doesn't the supposed 1-14 twists of older Savage 99's varied somewhat, because they were rifled on sine-bar machines. Some were apparently rifled on Mondays and Fridays, because I once owned an 99 .250 that turned out to have about a 1-15 twist. It would NOT shoot any 100-grain bullet, even the Speer, though it did fine with the 87. But all the other 1-14 twist .250's I've owned would shoot the 100 Speer and, often, the 100 Hornady Spire Point pretty well.
I've got enough of both of those 100-grain bullets to spare a little sampler pack if you want to try 'em.
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Do you happen to know the length of the 100 gr hot core? Thanks. You got an answer already. For future use, most of the time Midway lists the bullet length, BC, and other info ... convenient place to look stuff up online. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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I agree that Midway is useful in that respect. But they don't have lengths for many bullets, including some of the bullets under discussion, like the 100 grain Hot Cor. Do you happen to know the length of the 100 gr hot core? Thanks. You got an answer already. For future use, most of the time Midway lists the bullet length, BC, and other info ... convenient place to look stuff up online. Tom
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What about the 90 grain Sierra HPBT? Their .308 165 grain version of that is supposed to be pretty tough. If the .257 90 is as well it might make a terrific deer bullet. I used that bullet a lot in the .257 Weatherby and it stood up well to thee higher velocity.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My deer bullet in the 257 Ack is the Nosler 100 gr Partition, and my 25-06 is the Nosler 100 gr BT and the 110 gr Accubond, my 25 STW is the Barnes 100 ge TXS
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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You could always go for the 84 grain flat nose Remington makes for the >25-20.
I'll bet that would stabilize in your 14 twist .25-06. Might want to back off a bit from top end though.
Mathew 22: 37-39
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Lots of interesting options, all. I'm going to start with the 100 grain Hot Cor and Interlock, based on Mule Deer's kind offer.
This is also making me consider chopping a few inches off the barrel to make the rifle handier, given that I don't need to generate high velocity.
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100 gr. partition w/nose nipped/filed flat at end of jacket and load it full blast!-Muddy
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MD,
What twist would you recommend to stabilize 120gr bullets in a 25/06? 1-10?
O
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FWIW (me not being MD) I've had no problems stabilizing 120s in a 1-10 twist, even with the slower .257 Roberts, however, one of the barrel makers, I forget which, recommends a 1-9" twist for 120s. Maybe Shilen.
My 120 use has been with flat based bullets ... partitions and hornady pointy hollow points. The longer boat tails might turn out different. If you did go with a 1-9" twist it might open the door to slightly heavier bullets from smaller bullet makers. Neither is a wrong choice.
Another option, if you have a lathe, is to shorten / lighten some X bullets so they would stabilize in your 1-14" twist. It's probably easier to change barrels but for completeness ... gotta mention it.
Tom
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Campfire Kahuna
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Pretty much what TOM said--but will note that 120's aren't usually any problem. Only one that I know if is anything but a flat-base, the 120 Sierra GameKing HPBT, and it isn't all that long.
The longest .25 bullets are generally 115-117's, and while they'll all stabilize in a 1-10 twist it might not be ideal under certain conditions. But I've never had any trouble with any 115-120 grain .25's in a 1-10 here in Montana, even in the .250 Savage--though must also note that extra velocity doesn't make nearly as much difference in bullet stability as most handloaders think.
I just ran the 120-grain Nosler Partition in a 1-10 twist at 40 degrees and 3000 feet elevation (pretty typical deer hunting conditions in eastern Montana) through the best twist program available. The stability rating is 1.48 at 2650 fps (typical .250 Savage) and 1.59 at 3300, which is what I load the 120 to in my .257 Weatherby.
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Thanks TOM and MD,
Thinking of building a custom 25/06. As far as I know, its hard to over stabilize a bullet and I want to be able to use the full range of bullet weights'
While we're at it, I'm thinking a 24" barrel as opposed to a 22". Any thoughts on length? I wanting t build a sporter usable for game or vermin.
O
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Campfire Kahuna
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If you're going custom, a 1-9 won't hurt anything and will help sometimes.
Barrel length doesn't matter as much as people think, except possibly in terms of rifle balance for a particular shooter.
I've had several .25-06's over the years but right now the only one left has a 26" barrel.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I'd at least try the 110Accubond. If not it then the 100gr Hornady Interlokt. powdr
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MD.,
It's a 15 minute drive from my house to G.R.Douglas. So that's where I'm going for a barrel.
O
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That'll work!
I'm sure you're aware that Melvin Forbes uses Douglas barrels on his New Ultra Light Arms rifles. Melvin has told me that he's had really good luck with Douglas barrels in general, their .25 and .30 barrels are exceptional. That's been my experience as well, with three different NULA .25's, a .257 Roberts, .257 Roberts AI, and .257 Weatherby.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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The 80 TTSX isn't going to stabilize. The 100-grain Speer should (average length is about .94") as well as the 100-grain Hornady Interlock (.98"). Shhh! Don't let my 1-14 Mark X hear you! It likes the 80grTTSX just fine...
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Shhh! Don't let my 1-14 Mark X hear you!
It likes the 80grTTSX just fine...
Glad to hear there are other 1-14 Mark X owners. Any other bullets you've used successfully?
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100 gr. partition w/nose nipped/filed flat at end of jacket and load it full blast!-Muddy Might give this a shot too! EDIT: just filed down a 100 grain Partition and it looks to be about 0.91" long without the tip. Sounds promising.
Last edited by qotsarock; 09/20/14.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Art,
That's very interesting!
I ran the numbers through the Miller computer program, and it came up with a stability factor of around .8--which isn't anywhere close to stabilization. While the program isn't a perfect prediction of stability, the number normally has to be a lot closer to 1 for a bullet to work.
One possible explanation is the bullet length, taken from the Barnes website, may be off. If you have some of the 80 TTSX's handy I'd sure like to find out the measured length.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Oracle
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I know they don't work in a 1-14" twist 99.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Kahuna
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That would have been my guess, and as I noted in another post extra velocity doesn't provide nearly as much edge as many shooters assume.
The program does suggest the 80-grain .25 TTSX will stabilize in a 1-12 twist.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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The 80 gr. TTSX measures 1.020" and it will not stabilize in either of my two 1:14" 250 Savages.
Nifty-250
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Campfire Kahuna
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Thanks for the measurement. That's very close to what the Barnes website lists.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Now I have to go recheck the twist...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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MD..,
Its interesting to see what the pros here recommend and have had experience with. My intent is to build a mostly deer rifle in 25/06.
I'll check with the guys at Douglas n see what they say too. BTW they are a great bunch of guys. No such thing as trade secrets there. Talk to them 5 minutes and they'll walk you thru thr shop n show you how to make a barrel.
O
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Campfire Kahuna
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I have spent time with some of the Douglas guys, but never been to the shop. Instead we were all visiting Melvin Forbes, and he has the same high regard for both the guys and the barrels.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Hmmmm... I have an old sporterized Mauser, that dad bought from a less than astute coworker in the 1960's - possibly before Remington standardized the round. The work done to it is less than expert, but it fascinated me when I was a kid, so I had planned to carry it this fall for deer. It's wearing a 26" heavy barrel. I reckon I best check the twist 
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And it checks 1 in 11"  Accuracy with Win Ballistic Silvertip 115 gr factory loads was mediocre. Maybe 110 AB's will be better 
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Lots of interesting options, all. I'm going to start with the 100 grain Hot Cor and Interlock, based on Mule Deer's kind offer.
This is also making me consider chopping a few inches off the barrel to make the rifle handier, given that I don't need to generate high velocity. Quick range report. I had time for a quick trip to the range and shot at 25 yards to check on what would stabilize. I tried the 100 grain Speer Hot Cors, 100 grain Interlocks (with and without tips filed off), and 100 grain Partitions with the tips filed off. Each bullet over 47.7 grains of Accurate 4350. The good news is that there is no evidence of keyholing with any of these bullets and no wild groups in the bunch at that short range. Next step is to sort out which is more accurate at 100 yards. Thanks again for all the suggestions and especially to Mule Deer for the bullets and load advice.
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