Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Some Elk Numbers - S.W. Montana

Since the Wolf introduction hereabouts several years ago our Elk herds have been doing some very strange/out of the ordinary things.
One of the things they have never done before that they do now in the face of year round Wolf predation is they take up "residence" on private ranches near ranch houses for much of the year!
This makes for some excellent Elk "viewing" opportunities but Elk Hunting opportunities have suffered significantly.
On September 17th I had occassion to do some wildlife viewing of an Elk herd that had recently come out of the foothills/mountains and was rutting about in an open crop field - at times literally UNDER an active irrigation pivot.
On the 17th of September there were 472 Elk in this huge field and as of 1 hour ago there are now 720 Elk in that field.
Today I had enough time to do some further counting and note taking - and I thought the numbers were interesting enough to pass them along.
Out of that herd of 720 total Elk 44 of them were spike bulls and 27 of them were "mature" bulls - of those 27 "mature" bulls 12 of them were "raghorns" and the other 15 are 6x6 type bulls.
One of those bulls I would field judge to be at least 375 B&C points!
Last year before the Rifle season started here in S.W. Montana there were 1,800 Elk on this ranch and by the first of December (ending of Rifle season) I counted 2,100 Elk in this privately owned field!
This field/ranch is less than 5 miles from my home and I often pass by it.
This "situation" of the Elk now hiding on private ranches is currently and (unfortunately!) very common here in S.W. Montana!
The owner of the adjacent ranch complex took me for a ride through his fields the other day and he relayed how he had been born on that ranch 66 years ago and Elk NEVER came down to this valley floor except in a few of the harshest of winters and that happened WELL after the Hunting season was over.
He also relayed how when he was young on his ranch it was rare to even see a single Whitetail Deer on their property.
I counted 520 Whitetails in one of his pivots and 170 in another!
With less than 40 Mule Deer seen total.
We did not venture into his other 4 pivoted fields that day.
Just some numbers and food for thought on how things change over time and with changes in human behavior (more efficient irrigation/Wolf re-introduction etc).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Pix?

Rancho Loco: I could take some tomorrow and E-mail them to's you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Does that rancher let anyone hunt them?

Please do.

I'd like to see the pics posted here, if possible.

We have about 75,000 acres under center pivot irrigation in my county...I can't tell you how many deer I've shot feeding on crops while the system is running. They are accustomed to pivots from the day they are born...no big deal. It's just "rain" to them.

Tell you something else: Pivot systems make absolutely fantastic deer stands! If a pivot is swung around to a side of a field I want to hunt, I won't hesitate to climb up on it and hang my legs over a support and start glassing. They, naturally, are so used to the pivot, they don't give it another thought and graze freely around it without a care in the world. Case in point: my last buck I had mounted was a main frame 8 that scored 147 6/8". I had climbed on to the end gun tower on the pivot and watched 45 or so deer move out on me in the early evening, feeding on cotton (yes, cotton). I had does milliing around me all evening, 10-20 feet away, unaware I was perched above them. I even had a 125 class 8 pointer walk under my "tower" at one point. The one I shot came out to check on the ladies and I got him at less than 75 yards...had no idea I was there, in plain view.

Killed plenty of does on the ground, hiding behind the tires, with a bow or muzzleloader....

Schuett's ranch in Dillon, MT?

No pix yet..

I will report that I saw one last night...

Can someone explain why the wolves won't go on private ranches after the elk?

Cause they get fuggin shot and they learn quickly, like most canines.

Wolves will follow elk onto ranches, but mostly into timbered areas, where the wolves aren't nearly as likely to be shot at. But they don't usually follow elk onto wide-open hayfields.

I hunted a local ranch a couple years ago where a pack of wolves had taken up residence, and actually ran into them one day when we were driving a pickup along a road through some timber toward a dead elk one of us had killed that morning. But the pack never showed up on a bottomland hayfield, or even in an open park in the mountains--and according to the rancher they ate more cattle than elk, because cattle are easier to catch.

I can't take it any longer!!! Anyone who has watched SWMT knows that this "migration" stuff started before the wolf reintro! I won't go so far as to say wolves didn't aggravate it some. BWalker pegged it, if you have LOTSA $$$$ you are more than welcome to come & shoot an elk here. In my professional life I have necropsied several head of cattle killed by wolves farther away from cover than this elk herd. Remember we are dealing with an animal that does 30+ miles a night traveling. 3-4 to cover is a pretty minor jaunt. Just out of curiosity why haven't I been called to necropsy dead livestock by any of the proximal neighbors?
When I moved into the valley I now live in(1972)there were NO whitetails in it. Not so anymore. Anyone can come up w/their favorite reason. I certainly have mine. But that phenomenon started in the late '70's. Hmmmmm....
I would rather embrace change than waste the energy to fight it. Who knows, we might learn something.
Cheers

Laffin'.....I was waiting for that. For anyone wondering, this guy knows more about wolves than all of the members of this site combined, including me.

Thank you sir!



You are making my head swell!!
Cheers

Not that this anecdotal observation answers any questions raised above, but it sure changed my thoughts about where wolves will travel to get a meal.

I watched four wolves kill an antelope down in the Madison Valley, way out on the flats, two miles from any cover, in bright sunlight of a February afternoon. I had been seeing dead antelope carcasses and was writing it off to coyotes.

Given these ranches benefit from aerial control of coyotes, the number of coyotes is pretty low by the time I start wolf hunting in late January. What I watched that day might have been a better explanation for the antelope carcasses I was seeing.

I would have never guessed that wolves could catch an antelope out on a big flat, but watching it from a mile away, it looked like taking candy from babies. It went kind of like this.

One black wolf emerged from an irrigation ditch and started trotting toward a group of scattered and grazing antelope. Upon seeing his intention, this wintering group of 40+ antelope formed a tight herd and started running at a pretty good clip.

Anyone who knows the Madison has seen that almost every section has a fence around it. Seems the wolves have figured that out also, and how antelope will respond when they are chased by wolves.

Once the antelope herded up, they circled the square mile pasture a few times, with the wolf loping casually behind. I was smiling, thinking the antelope were just giving the wolf some exercise in the futility of chasing them in wide open spaces.

In the interim, three gray wolves emerged from the same spot in the irrigation canal and bedded down on a little knob in the middle of the pasture, watching intently. It almost looked like they had sent the black wolf out for "remedial training." Or, maybe the black one had drawn the short straw and it was his turn to catch dinner.

This game of chase when on for about five minutes. Then, as antelope often do, they tired of being confined and they lined out in a straight vector, the direction of which only the lead antelope can explain. That is what this herd did, with the black wolf following 200-300 yards behind.

When antelope hit a fence, they do not each find their own place to cross and all get across in a hurry. Nope, they bunch up and they all cross in the same spot, single file.

Seeing the herd was now bunched up at the fence, delayed by their habit of single file passage, the black wolf put on the burners. Within twenty seconds, he had closed the gap, dove into the back of the now bunched up herd, and with hardly any struggle, had an antelope by the throat and was dragging it off toward his mates.

Seeing their friend's success, the other three wolves rose from their beds and trotted over to enjoy the bounty of the day. Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have doubted it.

Maybe I am giving wolves too much credit, but this seems like a definite learned behavior where a very smart animal has learned how to use man-made landscape changes to their hunting advantage. And the antelope have yet to figure out a way to not fall into the trap. I suspect they know the antelope winter there and by mid-winter, they know it is easy to make antelope a big part of their winter diet.

Just a couple miles away are herds of winter-stressed bulls with big sharp antlers. I suspect wolves would rather invest the energy and take the lower health risk that comes with killing six antelope that have lost what little headgear they have, than to chance injury/death with 600 pounds of pissed off bull swinging swords from his head.

The ranch it took place on was one of the few where I did not have permission, or I could have easily snuck down the same irrigation ditch and had two hundred yard shots at four wolves feasting on a fresh killed antelope. I now have permission on that ranch and hope the scene repeats itself this winter. I would much enjoy taking advantage of a man-made structure, much the same as the wolves have figured out.

I now carry my video camera on all my trips. That segment would have been an amazing piece of footage, even if it were from a mile away.

I have no doubt that wolves can adapt to human presence far better than their prey. I doubt that event explains the question raised by the OP, but it is still one of the most remarkable wolf-prey interactions I have witnessed in my three winters of chasing wolves.

Which you guys prefer land and shoot? Or shoot from air? Those are the two,options alaska gives the wolves during predator control hunts. I prefer shoot from the air. Everytime the wolf lovers show up crying the blues. NPS asked the BOG to enact a emergency 1 mile buffer around the Denali NP. BOG told them to go take a hike.

Me too!!!!!!!!

That is a fascinating story Randy!

Casey

Interesting

Rancho_Loco: Be patient - I have been busy chasin guns, doin gunshows, sighting in Antelope Rifle etc etc etc.
Plus the skies have been very gray and wettish - not conducive to photgraphy.
Send me your E-mail address and I will get some pictures off by tomorrow night.
Someone asked if the Elk are on the Shuett Ranch and the answer is yes and two adjacent ranches as well one owned by the Koch Brothers and I am not sure who owns the other.
Got a phone call today and one herd is up to 1,000 Elk now.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Ulvejaeger: I disagree with your contention completely.
I have Hunted Montana every year since 1969.
I am personally aware of 7 ranches here in SW Montana that have recently (past 10 years or so) become "havens" for large Elk herds where none came before them in any significant numbers at all.
Furthermore I was told last fall by a LONG TIME Montana Game Warden/Biologist that Elk, as of the last few years, are NOT frequenting winter ranges at all where there used to be hundreds and hundreds of Elk each winter!
If anyone thinks these things are not due to the re-introduction and now over-abundance of Wolves - then they simply have another think coming!
I am not sure who you are miffed at for not being called to "necropsy dead cattle" - I don't own any cattle myself.
And have made no posting of recent regarding same.
The gist of my posting is/was that MANY Elk here in SW Montana have greatly changed their habits and this to the detriment of human Hunters.
All right then, if you want to go along with large numbers of our Elk "holing up" on private ranches where the vast majority of Hunters are not welcome to Hunt them then go right ahead and "embrace that", if you so desire!
Just now got a phone call from a Hunting buddy of mine and he relayed how the ranch adjacent to the Schuetts has (as of a week ago) instigated a predation Hunt!
Apparently 88 human Hunters have signed up for this Hunt and as of today 20 of those Hunters have been called in and have Rifle killed Elk off of that ranch!
Not my kind of Hunting, but opportunities, at least temporarily, for some Hunters.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I've hunted SW Montana since the late 1970's and I've noticed a lot more elk can be found on some of the larger ranches now than in the past. Not sure it is only because of wolves though but I'm sure they have had an effect. It may also have something to do with the ranches no longer allowing much hunting. The elk like to avoid all types of hunters, two legged or four. It's known that the wolves have changed elk behavior in many ways, so pushing them onto ranches is certainly quite possible. For what ever reason they have gone there in greater numbers than in the past. I also heard from locals in the area that cattle on leased public land shared with elk, had been allowed to overgraze much of the area and that may well have had an effect on the elk too. Well there is a wolf season so let's keep them in check.

[quote][/quote]
Bingo! IMO.
Time for a law similar to Alberta that disallows leasing or selling hunting rights, maybe.

I would suspect that if the elk are on private ranches, the wolves will go there after them. Less elk hunters on the private ranches mean less guys with rifles to shoot t the wolves, too. Also, I would suspect that the wolves would quickly learn to hunt the elk at night, if being shot at by the ranchers was an issue.

I am not sure why Fish and Game has to set up special depredation hunts for these big ranchers that don't allow hunting. It seems to be a way for the state to subsidize these private hunting preserves of the ultra rich.

Elk have been gathering on lightly-hunted lowland ranches along the upper Missouri River near where I live for a number of years, and we only started getting significant numbers wolves around Townsend about 5-6 years ago, long after they showed up around Dillon.

The first wolves to appear around here were apparently spin-offs from the Canadian packs that migrated south across the border into northwestern Montana years ago, and they are still mostly in the Elkhorns where they first showed up, not the Big Belts on the east side. So elk moving onto valley ranches during early fall sure wasn't originally due to wolves.

One study a few years ago indicated elk will stay on private land with little human hunting pressure even after wolves move in. Apparently they'd rather deal with a few wolves than humans with rifles.

That was certainly the case with the ranch I hunted an hour south of here two years ago, which only allows a few rifle hunters each fall. The pack had been living on and around the ranch for quite a while, but elk still moved onto the property from surrounding public land as soon as hunting season began--and stayed there even while four of us hunted and killed bulls.

However, we hunted only on horseback and foot, and didn't go whooping and hollering and high-fiving after a bull went down. Instead we sat quietly until any other elk moved off, and even when retrieving the bulls we killed, we never drove into the area where most of the elk lived except during midday. As a result the elk stayed on the ranch, despite our hunting and the wolf pack.

Rancho_Loco: I went out this morning and took many photos of the Elk.
To add to the previous information I provided the Elk are NOW bugling non-stop and at one instant through my wide angle binoculars I saw three seperate bull Elk mounted on cow Elk!
In other words the "rut" is at maximum - at least that I have seen this year to date.
I was a little pressed for time but did get to do a slow and thorough count of all Elk - there are now 1,090 Elk on this one ranch alone!
Or an increase of 300 or so since my last count.
I just did not have time to recount the Bulls as I previously did - I am baby-sitting a pair of Labs while my friend is out of town.
Anyway the VarmintWife will assist me in downloading and then E-mailing the photos to you at 6:00 P.M. tonight.
Please provide the E-mail address here, via E-mail to me at VarmintGuyaol.com or via P.M. to me on this site.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Interesting to compare to north Colorado, where the only wolf is an occasional loner passing through. We too see elk collect on large private ranches. Larger ranches, fewer hunters means more elk on the ranch, but even small ranches get them. For example, last fall during rifle season 400 elk collected on a 320 acre ranch that I buy hay from. No hunting ever allowed on this ranch, even for the guy that manages the ranch (absentee owner). The elk stayed out in the hay meadow until he got permission from Parks and Wildlife to haze them off. As soon as hunting starts on public land the elk start moving to private. Even archery season seems to move them...but reportedly this year Colorado has 10,000 more bow hunters than we did a decade ago, and some days it seems like every single one of them likes to bugle a lot.

Rancho_Loco: E-mail pictures are loaded and waiting to mail to you!
Please provide E-mail address so I can forward them.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmitGuy.

Can you just post some of the pictures on this blog/forum? I would (and I am sure many others) wouldn't mind seeing them.

Thanks for sharing.

JMG: I went back out to the giant herd of Elk in question this afternoon in hopes of getting some close-up ictures. Unfortunately the Elk had moved a bit further from the public road (now 600 yards distant as compared to 300 yards distant last week).
So I got no pictures today but did do some counting of Bulls only - there are now 46 5x5 or better Bulls and the rutting (mounting of cows, bugling, chasing etc) is still going strong.
Maybe the number bugles per minute is down slightly but still plentiful and very entertaining.
The distance to the Elk today now made it difficult to count the non-antlered Elk as they are "thick".
And unfortunately I do not possess the ability to post photos here - I will gladly send you an E-mail containing five pictures of the Elk herd/circumstances.
You would be more than welcome to post them here after you receive them.
Just send along your E-mail address via E-mail to me (VarmintGuyaol.com) or P.M. your E-mail address to me here.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Rancho_Loco: Still waiting for you to provide me with an E-mail address..

Your post - quote: "No pix yet.."

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Here are Varmint Guys pics

Randy,

Very interesting story. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

Back in 2009/2010 I became a "pro-wolf" advocate in MN. in order to "invade" their world via meetings. I can sum up their sentiment in a couple of sentences.
The pro-wolf crowd believes they have just as much right to be free and breed unencumbered by man. If they impact ranch herds, elk or deer so be it - they "were here first"! A great majority of the pro-wolf members also are devout believers in climate change, are anti-oil recovery, right down the line of socialist causes.
Members actually said they didn't care if wolves started to make inroads in big game populations. Can you guess why? They are staunch anti-gun ownership. So if the hunters had fewer harvest chances, so what, screw them.

Its NOT about a biological balance, although they talk this sentiment up big time. Its about using the courts and the ESA to get their way and frustrate hunters.

Just to the south of varmint guys neighborhood the Red Rock lakes National Wildlife Refuge has the same size herds of elk on it and right out in the open. No hunting pressure there either...

That's a delicious looking field

I see a lot of Elk here spending more of time on private or becoming resident. Not sure why ? We don't have wolves, but many areas once they hit private, there isn't much use in hunting the area and they seem to be hitting it earlier and earlier every year

Ryan_Otto: Thank you so much for using your expertise to post the photos I took.
Pardon my slow reply and thanks to you as I have been out scouting for Antelope in a new unit for me!
This is just ONE ranch of several I know of that are now "housing" Elk where pre-Wolf they were unheard of!
Especially in August, September, October and November of each year!
The herd of Elk on this one ranch is so large I can not get all the Elk in one picture and have any definition for the observer!
Someone mentioned that "Elk" have been frequenting lowland ranches for some time.
Well over the weekend I ran across the owner of the huge ranch adjacent to this ranch - in fact he was born on that ranch 68 years ago and has been there ever since.
I asked him without prompting or prejudice of ANY kind, if Elk had frequented his and adjacent ranches in numbers and in months like they are doing now?
His reply was "NEVER"!
I followed up again without prompting or prejudice as to why they are now frequenting places they have never done so before?
His reply was "WOLVES"!
As you can probably surmise this native is a person of few words.
I agree with his contention 1000%!
I have only been Hunting in this area since 1969 and have only lived here for 17 years now but this new life style of the Elk can not be refuted - it started when the Wolves became over-populated in this area (2,006 - 2,007)!
Thanks again Ryan_Otto I very much appreciate your help/efforts.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Laker: I bet there is a double lifetimes supply of Elk meat/liver in that one field alone.
One of my rancher friends relayed to me that each adult Elk eats 7 to 9 pounds of grass/crops per day!
Multiply 8 pounds of crop by 1,000 Elk by 200+ days and that comes to one hellacious amount of feed that this one rancher alone misses out on each year - he can't sell it nor can he feed MORE cattle with it!
I do so love Elk meat.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Bullcrap.

Don't even try to bring that line of thought out here.

Why is that?