Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Really frustrated with Savage ML 10 -II

OK, long story short I've got a Savage Smokeless ML that was given to me. It's not that it's inaccurate, it's probably the most frustrating gun I've ever fired in my life. The bore looks great, no rust / pitting / etc. It's not the accutrigger model but it does have a Rifle Basix trigger on it.

I've tried Barnes T-EZ, TMZ, Expanders, Hornady SST (300g). None of them group well but the TMZ bullets sometimes will not even group on a 2x3 FOOT piece of paper. I've tried two different scopes, two different mounts, iron sights, and three different powders.

It's decidedly worse with Smokeless loads than Blackhorn 209. It's about 4" groups with Blackhorn which isn't what I'm looking for but would work in a pinch. With 5744 42g it literally shoots 12" to 14" groups at 100 yards and sometimes I cannot even find the impact on the mentioned 2x3 piece of cardboard. The loads that do not hit most certainly feel like squib loads (less recoil) but why? I am using Winchester 209 primers and the supplied Barnes Sabots.

I'm not real experienced with ML rifles but I have a TC Omega that will consistently group < 2" with 3 different bullets and blackhorn 209.

So I returned this gun to Savage about 6 weeks ago. They looked it over, replaced the breech plug, fired it, and returned it. They sent what is more or less a one hole group target with it. I took it to the range today and it was every bit as bad for me as it's ever been. 3 out of 10 shots didn't impact my target frame at 100 yards and the group was over 10". I'm seating the bullets to the witness mark on my ramrod and I'm out of ideas.

I've ordered some of the short black MMP Sabots that Savage recommended and a box of the 250g .452 XTP they recommended. Is it possible I'm just running into issues with Sabots or is this gun just a turd they didn't fix?

Oh I yes, I am individually weighing charges and for my own sanity I have three different scales I put the powder charges on just to make sure they were correct.

What has the temperature been when you were shooting. These rifles are known for melting sabots in hot temps. Some guys are using a sub base wad to protect the sabot. A couple of friends of mine had good success with Hornady 300 XTPs and a Harbester Crush Rib sabot over 44 grains of 5744.

winchester w209 primers or winchester 777 primers?

Standard Winchester 209 primers. It was probably about 80 this morning when I was shooting but the last time it could have been anywhere from 85 to mid 90s, I don't recall. I was wondering if there was any chance of a blown sabot because just shooting a lousy group is one thing even if it's consistent but when you can't even find the impact at all, something certainly went very wrong!

I was not shooting slowly but the barrel didn't feel overly hot. When I cleaned it there were probably 10-11 unburnt powder kernels in the bore - not sure if that's to be expected or not?

In those kind of temps expect a 15min or more wait between shots. Did Savage test it with your scope? I dont think they normally will. Have you shot it with just iron sights?

Have you checked your vent liner. After .035 accuracy goes south.

TMZs are boattails and that usually equals BAD with smokeless. Especially with fast burning powders like 5744.

TEZs come with EZ load sabots, Thats bad too.

SSTs come with red 3 petals EZ load sabots. Again those are bad.

IIRC Savage test loads use SR4759 which is now hard to find. Its a bit slower than burning 5744 but gives better fps.

Try 63-65gr of Reloder7 and 300gr flat based bullets in the MMP black short. Its far more forgiving on sabots and easy to find usually. Harvester black crushribs are usually too loose unless you use a .458 bullet. With a 458 they are usually excellent shooters with the black crushribs

Very interesting guys. A friend just picked up 2# of SR 4759 for me, I will get it next week. I order some of these

http://mmpsabots.com/store/black-sabot/

I use the TC bullets with their sabots and 5744 and mine shoot about 2". What load did Savage say they used? I've shot about 100 shots out of mine and never cleaned the barrel, remember with smokeless they do not need to be cleaned like a black powder or triple 7 load.

I shoot the 250 grain sst with 46 grains of IMR 4227 with the mmp sabot,tried other combos like the barnes and i dont remember which sabot now but they would barely make it out of the barrel.Accuracy is about 2-3 inches at 100 yards. Hope you get it worked out.

Excellent Buzz.

SR4759 is a good powder. Fairly easy to ignite but not as hard on the sabots as N110 or 5744. I like it better than either of those if you plan on shooting 300gr bullets. N110 gives better FPS but its super hard to find and pressures are really up there with a 300gr.

I still like Reloder7 better but SR4759 is more flexible. 250gr bullets are pretty much a no go with Reloder7.

BTW you should register on Dougs message board. Its almost all smokeless oriented and they have more knowledge then you will find anywhere on the net.

Savage quit recommending 4227 a while ago. It has ignition issues. If it works for you fine but keep that in mind. Its a known problem.

Did not know that,what would be a good substitute? Shoots really good right now.Thanks Shawn.

I would call Savage and see if they would be so kind as to tell you the load they used, and find out if it was actually shot at 100 yards or 50.

SR4759 or N110 would be my choice for 250gr bullets if you can find them. N110 is and has been super hard to find the last few years.

4759 is being discontinued and supplies are drying up fast.

5744 is filthy compared to most smokeless powders and performance sucks but it the easiest to ignite. If 2050fpsish is ok with you, 5744 is fine and super dependable. Its about as dirty as BH209 though just non corrosive. BH209 actually works really really well in the Savage, just make sure you clean it.

Now if you want to use 300gr bullets there are a couple powders that rock. Reloder7 and H4198 or IMR4198 are good powders and still fairly available. You need quite a bit more powder to be reliable so recoil is going to be higher. N120 is my favorite Savage powder but goooood luck finding it. Its super clean and 300gr bullet performance is excellent with just 58-60grs. You can go as high as 63gr if needed.

At one time Reloder7 was a recommended powder in the first Savage ML and many people still use it in MLIIs. 4198 has a similar burn rate and its a bit cleaner.

the 300 grain barnes original with a black harvester crush rib sabot is bread and butter for my gun. I think I was running 70 grains of RL 10 @ 2300 ish fps. groups were a 1 moa easy

44 grains of 5744 with a barnes 290 grain tipped mz in a mmp high pressure sabot. Gets me right around 1950fps. Very little recoil shoots flat enough that out to 250 yards I can just hold upper third on a deer. Out of two different savages the combo shoots excellent three shots at a hundred are always around 3/4".

Waiting between shots, especially at higher temperatures is critical. My groups will go from 1" (cold bore), to 7" (able to feel warmth with my palm.

300g Barnes original with orange sabots, 44.7g of 5744 or 63g Re-7, both accurate.

Again, waiting is key. Wait at least 15min and/or use a cooling rod. When cool mine can do this:


When hot it falls apart. My NULA will do the same thing but prefers Parker bullets and N110 or SR4759. You might give those a try:






Or Thor bullets. They don't shoot as well for me but they do away with the sabot:

7mmfreak

I found that 60gr of N120 was hard to beat but my bore was tighter. I had to use the MMP Orange sabot instead. Sizing the 458s down to .454 also worked great with the Harvester Black CR in mine.

63gr of Reloder7 worked great too but its not nearly as clean as N120. It is far easier to find though. 63gr of Reloder7 gave similar speeds as roughly 58gr of N120. In the 2100-2150fps range IIRC.

The thing i really loved about N120, it does work with 250gr bullets if you want a 2500fps load. You need around 65gr+ to get there. I never tried it in really cold temps to see if it was reliable but a few others claimed it was.

You guys are zeroing in on the smokeless loads.

Why was he shooting 4" groups with BH 209? That gun should shoot BH better than that.

Wow - thanks for all the info guys! I had NO idea that I needed to wait as long between shots or things would fall apart like this.

Bar Hunter - the 4" groups with BH209 were with Barnes T-EZ bullets. That's all I tried so it's quite possible it simply didn't like those bullets / sabots. That was also basically loading them and firing them very briskly and it was with the old breech plug and ventliner which was replaced.

I have a couple more I can try with the BH 209 this weekend. I have some 300g SST and 250g shockwaves I can try with BH209. I was really hoping to hunt with it Sunday and I suppose if it can do reasonable with either the SST or Shockwave, that will be fine until my MMP Sabots and other bullets arrive along wit the 4759.

Savage test fired my gun with MMP Sabots, 250g .452 XTP, 209 primers and 42g of 4759.

Ok, good luck.

The largest problem is his bore size, he needs to first find a sabot and a bullet to suck up the space provided then move to the powders. I think his bore is lager and yet he stated he is using sabots and bullets know to be smaller?....Counterintuitive.

If it were me I would first slug the barrel and measure it out then move from there.

In my CVA I have a slugged measured .503 barrel so because of this I use a MMB HPH/12 sabot and a larger .453 250 grain T/C Shcockwave (Hornady 250 SST) bullet coupled with 120 grains of BH209 and a CCI 209M Primer. She loads a bit tight but shoots 3 shot MOA at 100 yards so who cares.

In my Knight it has a slugged measured .5025 barrel and it likes Harvestor black Crush Rib sabot, 250 grain Hornady .453 bullets, 120 grains BH209, and CCI 209M primer.

Using EZ load sabots is not good, especially for smokeless. If it were me, and saying this from no actual experience in the Savage, if I were to start some where and through money at it I would pick up a bag of MMP HPH/12 sabots and some 250-300'sh grain bullets of your choice, some Hornady .453, some .451 Scorpion PT Golds, or even some .452 Barnes bullets. That will give you .003 variance just in the bullet differences. Then play with some of the sabots. You could also move to a .458 bullet and run a tighter .452 MMP black crush rib sabot as was posted pervious.

MOST Savage MLIIs run on the loose side. Mine did not but it still would not shoot the EZ load sabots or the crushribs as well as a tighter sabot.

If you have some 50cal bullets like the 50/300gr FTX its easy to tell. If the 50cal FTX will drop down your bore its a looser model. The 50/300gr FTX runs really close to .501. They would not start in mine.

I could shoot the MMP short in mine with a 250gr but they were a bear to load. Mine liked loaded sabots in the .505-507 range the best. Anything under .504 would not shoot very well with a couple exceptions. The Harvester smooth black for under 300gr bullets would sometimes shoot ok WITH a .452 300gr bullet.

Problem was the heat and the stock sabots..........get better sabots and wait till the barrel is cool or make a barrel cooler and you will find the gun shoots better............

Definitely a learning experience for me fellas I will update what I find this weekend and next.

go to Dougs Message Boards/ Savage smokeless muzzleloading and learn all there is to know about the savage, more info than you can digest in a month.
ask questions, any and all and get good answers. guys there will help you

I started and ended with the MMP, 250 XTP, and 5744 in both a Savage and a NULA using the load that was recommended in the Savage manual. Nothing special but it was accurate and has killed everything I pointed it at.

While never having shot the savage...

I have not seen an inline that doesnt love 100gr of pyrodex or bh209 with a 300 gr Barnes redhot or EZ with federal primers. That combo has worked in 3 differnt knights, 1 encore, 1 remington and 1 traditions.

I wouldnt put Pyrodex in my Savage if you paid me and cleaned it for me. BH209 though can be very good in the Savage, Ive also shot a fair amount in a 45cal sabotless. I was surprised how well it worked with hot 300gr bullet sabotless loads.

BH209 can pretty much equal 5744 in fps if you dont mind more clean up time and cost per shot.

That combo didn't work for me. The Barnes OD were just to small and both my CVA and Knight hated them.

Its not a problem to switch sabots. Ive seen so many people complain about poor accuracy with (insert brand) bullet but never tried another sabot or tried the wrong sabot.

The only Barnes that ever gave me issues are the boattail TMZs and only because there are about 2-3 sabot choices for boattails. I avoid BTs completely in my Savage. They are known to be problematic with high pressure loads.

My favorite Barnes is the .458 250gr TSXFN bullet. It does not fly well compared to the poly tipped Barnes but it shoots really well. Many Savages show a preference for .458 bullets

Quick update. Last weekend was ML opener in GA. We have a 100y and 200y rifle range on my hunting lease. Between hunts I tried some 250g TC Shockwaves and Blackhorn 209. I have never shot the Shockwaves in this gun but they did much much better with Blackhorn 209 than the Barnes bullets.

I was able to get them into about 2" at 100y. I know that many of you are getting some amazing accuracy out of yours but 2" from what I've experienced in the past is much improved! No squib loads or other odd behavior. I'll use it with blackhorn 209 for the rest of ML days then I will focus on the MMP Sabot, 4759, and the 250g XTP. That stuff may all be here in time for me to try it next weekend.

I would advise you to dump the 250gr XTP and get some 300gr XTPs. The man who designed the gun used that bullet and it shoots very well in every Savage I have owned. I've shot about everything through mine and keep coming back to the 300gr SST or the Hornady 300gr HP in .458" dia. Never could get the mono metal bullets to shoot well.

Tag

I sighted mine in saturday and had no luck with XTP 250 grain bullets and MMP sabots. I loaded up some T/C cheap shot 240 grain lead bullets and supplied sabots and it started to group very well. I use VV 110 powder with a low charge of 37 grains.

May not work for you but I had similar problems with mine. Tried barnes, power belts, etc. Buddy of mine recommended this and it worked for me...

IMR SR 4759 43.5 grains
Hornady XTP 45 cal .452 diameter 300 gr.
with the shorter MMP sabots
winchester 209 primer

I get sub 1" groups at 100 yds 2.5" at 200

My thoughts....

I have all the components now. SR 4759, the 250g XTP, and the Short black MMP sabots. I probably won't get a chance to really try it until next weekend but I'm hopeful this will be much better.

I would get some 300 grainers as well as stated previous.

I have some coming as well.

That is PRECISELY the load I shoot. I have a Leupold 2x7 x 28 scope mounted on it. Mine will consistently group 1 1/2" or LESS at 100 yards rested. Mine is also the non accu-trigger 10ML-II.

How did that work for you?