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Long read, but today, the Catholic Church forever changed...

http://news.yahoo.com/bishops-acknowledging-reality-catholic-families-094555875.html

VATICAN CITY (AP) � Catholic bishops signaled a radical shift in tone Monday about accepting gays into the church, saying they had gifts to offer and that their partnerships, while morally problematic, provided homosexual couples with "precious" support.

In a preliminary report, released half-way through a Vatican meeting on family life called by Pope Francis, the bishops also said the church must welcome divorcees and recognize the "positive" aspects of civil marriages and even Catholics who cohabitate, as well as the children of these less traditional families.

While it does not change church doctrine, the tone of the report on a host of hot-button family issues such as marriage, divorce, homosexuality and birth control was one of almost-revolutionary acceptance and understanding rather than condemnation. It will guide a closed-door debate until a final document is issued Saturday.

Gay rights groups hailed what they called a "seismic shift" in the church's attitude toward gays.

"For the LGBT Catholics in the United States and around the world, this new document is a light in the darkness � a dramatic new tone from a church hierarchy that has long denied the very existence of committed and loving gay and lesbian partnerships," said Chad Griffin, president of Human Rights Campaign, the biggest LGBT rights organization in the U.S.

Some conservative cardinals downplayed the report as insignificant or derided it as unacceptable, while conservative groups denounced it as heresy and a "betrayal" that will only serve to confuse Catholics.

"Confused, contradictory chaos in Rome," headlined the arch-conservative commentator Michael Voris.

Bishops clearly took into account the views of the pope, whose "Who am I to judge?" comment about gays signaled a new tone of welcome for the church. Their report also reflected the views of ordinary Catholics who, in responses to Vatican questionnaires in the run-up to the synod, rejected church teaching on birth control and homosexuality as outdated and irrelevant.

In a sign of the chasm that is apparently underway, Francis decided late Friday to add six progressives from four continents to the synod leadership to help prepare the final document after several conservatives were elected to leadership positions. None of Francis' appointees were Africans, who are traditionally among the most conservative on family issues.

"The drama continues," a wry Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle, archbishop of Manila, said of the debate.

The bishops said gays had "gifts and qualities" to offer and asked rhetorically if the church was ready to provide them a welcoming place, "accepting and valuing their sexual orientation without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony."

For a 2,000-year-old institution that teaches that gay sex is "intrinsically disordered," even posing the question was significant.

"This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic Church speaks of gay people," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit author. "The Synod is clearly listening to the complex, real-life experiences of Catholics around the world, and seeking to address them with mercy, as Jesus did."

The bishops repeated that gay marriage was off the table. But it acknowledged that gay partnerships had merit.

"Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions, it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners," they said.

Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, a Catholic gay rights group said that though the report repeats doctrine about gay marriage, "the move toward accepting and valuing the gifts of gay and lesbian people is a major step forward."

Cardinal Timothy Dolan, archbishop of New York, downplayed the significance of the report, saying it was merely a draft and did not represent any kind of "earthquake" in church teaching. "It's not the final word and we're going to have a lot to say about it," he said in an interview with the SiriusXM/Catholic Channel.

Indeed, Polish Cardinal Stanislaw Gadecki called the report "unacceptable" and a deviation from church teaching, according to an interview with Vatican Radio.

Conservative groups rejected the report as a "betrayal" and even heresy.

"What will Catholic parents now have to tell their children about contraception, cohabiting with partners or living homosexual lifestyles?" asked Maria Madise, coordinator of the Voice of the Family, which says it represents several pro-life and conservative groups. "Will those parents now have to tell their children that the Vatican teaches that there are positive and constructive aspects to these mortal sins? This approach destroys grace in souls."

The tradition-minded blog Rorate Caeli called the document "heresy, homoheresy."

In the report, bishops said the church must grasp the "positive reality of civil weddings" and even cohabitation, with the aim of helping the couple commit eventually to a church wedding.

They also called for a re-reading of the 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, which outlined the church's opposition to artificial birth control. The bishops said couples should be unconditionally open to having children, but that the message of Humanae Vitae "underlines the need to respect the dignity of the person in the moral evaluation of the methods of birth control."

There has been much talk inside the synod about applying the theological concept of the "law of gradualness" in difficult family situations, including over contraception. The concept encourages the faithful to take one step at a time in the search for holiness.

In matters of birth control, the concept amounts to a tacit acknowledgement that most Catholics already use artificial contraception in violation of church teaching. But applying the concept pastorally would encourage priests to meet these couples where they are, and then help them come to understand the full reasoning behind the ban and then adopt it themselves.

Bishops also called for "courageous" new ways to minister to families, especially those "damaged" by divorce. The document didn't take sides in the most divisive issue at the synod, whether Catholics who divorce and remarry without an annulment can receive Communion.

Church teaching holds that without an annulment, these Catholics are living in sin and thus ineligible to receive the sacraments.

The document said these Catholics deserve respect and should not be discriminated against, and then laid out the positions of both sides: those who want to maintain the status quo barring them from the sacraments, and those who favor a case-by-case approach, in which the couple undertakes a path of penance.

Pope Francis has called for a more merciful approach to these couples, but conservatives have insisted there is no getting around Jesus' words that marriage is indissoluble.

There have been suggestions that the conservatives were being sidelined, if not silenced, behind the synod walls given Francis' known position on the matter.

Asked about the perceived sidelining of conservatives at the synod, Tagle, the archbishop of Manila, said there had been "ample space" for people to speak their minds.

On other issues, the bishops said:

�The church must speed up and streamline the annulment process to make it "more accessible and flexible." Proposals include removing the automatic appeal for annulment cases and allowing an administrative rather than cumbersome judicial process, the bishops said.

�Divorced Catholics who remarry in civil unions must be treated with respect "avoiding any language or behavior that might make them feel discriminated against."

�Children of gays and divorcees require special pastoral care. "The church pays special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given a priority."


This is no longer your Grandpa's Catholic Church.


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Being Catholic would be a lot easier for folks, if the church just did away with all moral teachings. Become more like the Unitarians.
Good thoughts are all that really matters, eh?


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I am reminded of Luther's confession when commanded to recant...


Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
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Stupid people will always amaze me.


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the "gifts" he is refering to is MONEY

ked


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The catholic Church has always been about money.... They think if they let them in and "accept their money - ugh I mean Them" that they will gain more members than they lose...

never had any respect for the catholic church after seeing some of the most ornate gold filled churches in south America and seeing the people around it living in such poor conditions and filth... they care about them selves... not the people.

What do you expect from a group of people who put up with child molesters


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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Being Catholic would be a lot easier for folks, if the church just did away with all moral teachings. Become more like the Unitarians.
Good thoughts are all that really matters, eh?

Uh, no.


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1. Never tell everything that you know.
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ACtually the thought that homosexuals have nothing to offer anyone or anything is crazy.

But how they go about it can be just as crazy.

Bottom line they are people too. And they can either be a positive or a negative in life, aside from the sexual part.

How they handle it and how folks receive it is what is going to matter.

I will say that we had a homosexual pastor for years that no one knew his leanings. And he was one of the very best ministers that church had. But he never followed his leanings, stayed single, and probably 10-20 folks out of maybe 600 ever knew....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by Sako
The catholic Church has always been about money.... They think if they let them in and "accept their money - ugh I mean Them" that they will gain more members than they lose...

never had any respect for the catholic church after seeing some of the most ornate gold filled churches in south America and seeing the people around it living in such poor conditions and filth... they care about them selves... not the people.


I feel the same way about Bank of America.

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Originally Posted by slumlord
Originally Posted by Sako
The catholic Church has always been about money.... They think if they let them in and "accept their money - ugh I mean Them" that they will gain more members than they lose...

never had any respect for the catholic church after seeing some of the most ornate gold filled churches in south America and seeing the people around it living in such poor conditions and filth... they care about them selves... not the people.


I feel the same way about Bank of America.


And both have voluntary membership....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Mortgages are not casual participatory. Cept maybe for neegroes.

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Originally Posted by Sako
The catholic Church has always been about money.... They think if they let them in and "accept their money - ugh I mean Them" that they will gain more members than they lose...

never had any respect for the catholic church after seeing some of the most ornate gold filled churches in south America and seeing the people around it living in such poor conditions and filth... they care about them selves... not the people.

What do you expect from a group of people who put up with child molesters


I've yet to find a church that exists without money.

I've also yet to meet a person that was molested in a Catholic church, not saying it ain't happened, just ain't met one.

I HAVE met a few that have been molested by Baptist deacons. I also know of the churches that have kept it quite.

Here's a hint, if a church is made of people, they ALL have their bad apples.


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Homosexuals are people too. No less, no more, a sinner than any Catholic, or folks from any other religion.

They should be welcomed into any church. Would the Lord turn anyone away? Performing their marriage is another story though. I dont believe though that any church has the right to perform same sex marriage. Letting them in isnt condoning their sin. Performing their marriage is.

But I do believe, though I hate the idea of it, all states should allow same sex marriage. Big difference between mans law, and Gods.

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Originally Posted by rost495
ACtually the thought that homosexuals have nothing to offer anyone or anything is crazy.

But how they go about it can be just as crazy.

Bottom line they are people too. And they can either be a positive or a negative in life, aside from the sexual part.

How they handle it and how folks receive it is what is going to matter.

I will say that we had a homosexual pastor for years that no one knew his leanings. And he was one of the very best ministers that church had. But he never followed his leanings, stayed single, and probably 10-20 folks out of maybe 600 ever knew....
We're all tempted to sin, ALL of us. Being tempted by illicit sex is almost universal. However, being tempted is not a sin. Giving in to it IS a sin but its one we can resist. The Bible promises that we can't be tempted beyond our ability to resist. God will always give us a way out. It sounds like your pastor found the way out.

We will all sin but we can all be forgiven if we repent and ask for it. That's the downfall of homosexuals. They're convinced that what they're doing is 'normal' and they refuse to repent. Without that repentance, they're doomed.

Before this is over, the true church will be underground. The visible church will be regulated by laws that force it to allow sin. The real Christians will leave and join secret churches that will obey Christ, leaving the visible, 'official' churches to wallow in sin.


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
I've yet to find a church that exists without money.

You don't get around much. Yes, the most visible churches are visible because of what they do with money, but there are thousands of house churches that try to follow the New Testament. They are not visible because they have lay leadership and give their money away. The third world is full of them, and a movement exists in the United States that is pursuing this model. There could be one in your town without you knowing about it.

Steve.


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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Being Catholic would be a lot easier for folks, if the church just did away with all moral teachings. Become more like the Unitarians.
Good thoughts are all that really matters, eh?


Hey now don't go to picking on the Unitarians. grin


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Originally Posted by Everyday Hunter
Originally Posted by Steelhead
I've yet to find a church that exists without money.

You don't get around much. Yes, the most visible churches are visible because of what they do with money, but there are thousands of house churches that try to follow the New Testament. They are not visible because they have lay leadership and give their money away. The third world is full of them, and a movement exists in the United States that is pursuing this model. There could be one in your town without you knowing about it.

Steve.


Sweet! I take it the houses were gifts from God?


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by Everyday Hunter
Originally Posted by Steelhead
I've yet to find a church that exists without money.

You don't get around much. Yes, the most visible churches are visible because of what they do with money, but there are thousands of house churches that try to follow the New Testament. They are not visible because they have lay leadership and give their money away. The third world is full of them, and a movement exists in the United States that is pursuing this model. There could be one in your town without you knowing about it.

Steve.

Sweet! I take it the houses were gifts from God?

In a way, yes. Private homes privately paid for by the owner/occupant who thanks God for the skills and energy with which to produce an income. Even you could have a house church in your home.

Steve.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
[quote=rost495]
We will all sin but we can all be forgiven if we repent and ask for it. That's the downfall of homosexuals. They're convinced that what they're doing is 'normal' and they refuse to repent. Without that repentance, they're doomed.


Now Ya went and did it, Antlers ain't gonna like that! Ya had to go and tell the truth eh?


Paul

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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by Sako
The catholic Church has always been about money.... They think if they let them in and "accept their money - ugh I mean Them" that they will gain more members than they lose...

never had any respect for the catholic church after seeing some of the most ornate gold filled churches in south America and seeing the people around it living in such poor conditions and filth... they care about them selves... not the people.

What do you expect from a group of people who put up with child molesters


I've yet to find a church that exists without money.

I've also yet to meet a person that was molested in a Catholic church, not saying it ain't happened, just ain't met one.

I HAVE met a few that have been molested by Baptist deacons. I also know of the churches that have kept it quite.

Here's a hint, if a church is made of people, they ALL have their bad apples.


Churches have to have money... True they have to be good Shepard's of the money. The catholic church does not care about much other than money...

True that churches are made up of people... and there is always a % of bad apples. But I do not see the SBC or the CBF run like the mafia.... it is all the about the money with the catholic church leadership...

The sole reason this pope is in place is to try and bring people back to the church (for the money) no matter what they have to ignore in the bible....


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