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Mr Shoemaker,
If you don't mind I have a couple questions for you?
I was reading an old Gun Digest and came across an awesome article about Kodiak Bear hunting by a couple of guys by the name of Ray Orodica and Andy Runyan. I was just wondering if you knew them? The gentlemen I mentioned favoured big bores .458's, doubles and especially .416's and Mr Runyan also favoured using the lightest bullets for his .416. Funnily enough he had nothing nice to say about the .375 for big bears but I'm sure his choices are all based on personal experience. As I stated it is a great article!
My second question is how do shotgun slugs work on big bears? I'm not talking about fancy ones just the plain jane lead ones fired out of a smooth bore?
And lastly what is your opinion of the .303 Lee Enfield as a bear rifle? As an Australian, I dearly love the old .303's and figure as a scrub rifle they have a lot going for them. Rugged, handy (once sporterised), fast to cycle, 10 shot mag and powerful. Just not sure if it is powerful enough?
Thanks so much for your time and expertise.
Regards,
Russ.
Last edited by BadboyMelvin; 09/04/14.
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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Oh, and I love my .458 too! :-)
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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Russ, I knew Andy Runyon well and he was one of the truly great Alaskan bear guides and a knowledgable rifle loony as well. Andy killed as many big bears as any other famous Kodiak guides and after a failing to stop a wounded bruin with his 375 decided to get a bigger rifle. He loved the 404 and 416 calibers. I talk a little about him in an upcoming feature in Rifle magazine on the 416 Ruger. I only know Ray Ordorica as a part time writer/journalist who wrote a few articles and apparently was fascinated with big bores and Alaska.
As for the 303 and bears, after I gave the 416 Rigby that I kept in our outhouse for bear protection to my son I replaced it with a sporterized 1906 SMLE. As a Lee Speed fan I had no doubt as to the 303's effectiveness and thought having a SMLE in the outhouse had a certain poetic appeal as well.
And I have never seen any reason to use a soft Foster style shotgun slug as protection from animals that can weigh over 600kg but every person whom I have talked with who tried have claimed that they would never do it again due to lack of penetration.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Oh no, I had no idea that Andy Runyon had passed. That's so sad as he seemed like a character and a really nice bloke. Very sad and I hope he went on his terms..
I had a feeling that shotgun slugs would be pretty ordinary. A lot of people I know go on and on about them and how great they are, but in my mind, a hunk of soft lead shot out of an un-rifled barrel doesn't sound like the best choice to me for big dangerous game. What about big buckshot? Some people rely on it as bear defence. What would be your opinion on it as bear defence?
Is there anything the ol' .303 can't do? I thought that it'd make a pretty fair bear rifle and after talking to you it's confirmed! After all, it been killing the hell outa pigs, deer and buffalo down here for decades, so why not bear too! And those glorious Lee Speed's... a more elegant rifle I have yet to see..
Once again thanks for your time. It really is appreciated.
Russ.
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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Phil, have you had any experience with the Woodleigh 215 grain .303 bullets? I would imagine the difference between those and a 220 grain out of an '06 would be negligible.
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A few years ago we had a problem with bears while we were at camp. One of them refused to stay away in spite of the use of proven methods of deterrence. Finally at 2:30 in the morniing - after the 'problem child' was clattering around on the porch a measly 1/4" of Plexiglas away from being inside with us - I went back out and gave him a slug through the shoulders as he loped back and forth. The slug didn't make it through the broadside animal in spite of hitting only muscle rib and lung. I keep common slugs handy as noise makers as they splatter on the rocks just fine (which is generally one of the better ways of deterring these animals anyway). I have no use for buckshot; a 170 SP out of a 30 WCF penetrates better than they do.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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I figured you would repost that info, so I didn't mention it.
Russ- Poster 458Lott has posted a nice treatise on the buckshot question. You can search for it or perhaps he will see this thread and reply with it. Short answer: don't use buck.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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I had a feeling that shotgun slugs would be pretty ordinary. A lot of people I know go on and on about them and how great they are, but in my mind, a hunk of soft lead shot out of an un-rifled barrel doesn't sound like the best choice to me for big dangerous game. What about big buckshot? Some people rely on it as bear defence. What would be your opinion on it as bear defence?
Russ.
My instincts tell me that if a large, slow and soft hunk of lead is ineffective then a bunch of much smaller ones will not be an improvement. 00 buck has about the same diameter and power as a 32 acp, but is softer. More like a volley from cap and ball black powder pocket pistol. The only guide who I have talked with who actually used 00 Buck on a brown bear at closer range said that they peeled a lot of hide off it's head but severely pissed it off !!
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Russ- Poster 458Lott has posted a nice treatise on the buckshot question. You can search for it or perhaps he will see this thread and reply with it. Short answer: don't use buck.
I think it went something like, place a target at 10 paces and unload your baddest charge of 00. If you get a pattern, then you'll realize you're relying on at best one maybe two pellets of stopping or killing a bear. A single pellet of 00 buck weighs a whopping 54 gr, at a blistering 1200 fps that equates to 172 fpe. Let's see what the mighty 380 auto can do. It fires a much more impressive 95 gr bullet at a bit more sedate 950 fps, but wait produces 190 fpe. I'm not a fan of fpe as equating to terminal performance, but it is in this case useful to show how anemic 00 shot is. So if the argument for buckshot is that aiming isn't as critical as a single projectile, you're trusting your life on perhaps one pellet that has less terminal performance than a 380 acp. I don't know about others, but that falls way shy of what I'd trust to protect myself from a bear. Hence with the multi projectile theory in the crapper, where it belongs, you should choose a single projectile with sufficient terminal performance to do significant damage. While the 12 ga slug is impressive in diameter and recoil, the terminal performance lags significantly behind a high powered rifle. So with the choice of a single projectile, leave the shotgun for shooting birds, and carry the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately. And shoot it accurately!
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Thanks!
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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00 buck works pretty good on people at about 5 yards.
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Yep, I've been told it does!
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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I have also heard from reliable sources that slugs do just as well.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Phil; Top of the morning to you sir, I hope you and yours are doing well so far into the day. On the subject of two legged predators, a local EMT who is also a fellow hunter/shooter was relating to me that he was first responder on a call years back where a couple of local chaps involved in the pharmaceutical business had some franchising issues. Anyway chap one was attempting to enter the door of number two's house when he received a charge of buckshot to the front of his chest - which spun him 180� - whereupon he was given a Foster slug between the shoulder blades for insurance. The EMT noted that while the insurance shot was likely not required, none of the projectiles exited...... On a bear related note, I had occasion to speak at some length with a bear biologist here in BC some years back who had converted from a pump 12 gauge with slugs to a Featherweight '06 with 200gr Partitions. He was what I felt at the time being intentionally vague about why he'd abandoned the slugs Phil, but I do recall he was quite certain they didn't work as he'd wanted them to. Thanks as always for taking the time to share your real world experience with different cartridge/bullet combinations, I for one very much appreciate it. All the best to you and yours this fall Phil. Dwayne
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Mr Shoemaker,
What would be the most common caliber you see for hunting bears? Would it be the .30-06? What would be the smallest caliber you would let someone hunt bears with? Do you ever guide bow hunters? What would be the largest you recommend? (I'm assuming that there is no such thing as over-kill for big bears??) Would you rate big bears in the same league as lions etc.. as far as being dangerous to hunt? And finally, on average how hard are big bears to kill with an adequate caliber? Some animals are just notorious in how hard they are to put down and I was wondering if bears are in this category?
Thanks so much for your time mate and I'll know that I'll get factual answers (not BS) if I ask you.
Thanks again,
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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Wow, I've just re-read my post and it's a lot of questions! I hope you don't mind!
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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I'll try to answer them The most common caliber was one of the .300 magnums ( usually the Win) when I started guiding in Alaska 35 years ago. then it was the .338 and now is probably the .375 ( either H&H or Ruger)
The smallest I recommend is the 30-06 but I have allowed hunters to use the .270 Win with 150 gr Nosler partitions and it works fine. As for danger I would rate the big bears in between lions and buffalo. they are almost as quick as lions and the big ones as large a cape buffalo. Plus they are genuinely smart. As for killing, I would also rate them in between lions and buffalo. They often react immediately to the shot, like lions, but can absorb a lot of poorly placed lead while traveling long distances ( if you are lucky and they are not charging)
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Thank you very much for answering! It really is a blessing to be able to ask an expert and get an answer the next day. Something that we all should never take for granted and something we all should be thankful for..
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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