Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Acid test for Leica HD-B's and 142 gr 6.5mm Matrix VLD

Over a week ago, I was out hunting Utah's spike elk and/or a cow elk. I was using my light 6.5x47 pushing a Matrix 142 gr VLD to 2917 and my new Leica Geovid HD-B 10x42 ranging binoculars.

Preseason practice with both rifle and bino allowed me confidence as far out as 1390 yds, though I was limiting my shots to around 1150 altitude and temperature dependent.

The Leica HD-B's, when utilized with the micro SD card will give precise dope to 1000 yds, per the published info. My pair will do it to 1008 yds. No compliants here. All one does is drop your ballistic data in to the Leica web site and save it to you SD card. Insert the card in to the tiny slot in the battery compartment and i've always managed to be within one 1/4 moa click of my Shooter app.

Beyond 1008 yds, I pull the yardage, angle, baro and temp data off the HD-B's and drop the info into Shooter and get my dope that way.

The temps during the hunt had been unseasonably warm so the elk were leaving any opening they were out in and heading into the trees within minutes of the start of legal shooting light or not coming out of the trees until, again, minutes of legal shooting light ending.

For the last two hours of the day, I'd been sitting where I could watch a sizable Western facing slope. Nothing showed except a dozen does in 3 different groups. With just 20 minutes of legal light left, I decided to move over to watch the other side of the valley, where sage met the trees. Within a minute of glassing, I spotted two elk in the fading light which was even darker than usual due to the increasing cloud cover.

With the 10x binos, I could not make out the type of elk I was seeing. I quickly pulled out my 15-45x Zeiss spotter and verified a cow and spike. Both legal for me. I first ranged the bull at 1020. Knowing my HD-B's will give dope to 1008, I simply took several ranges on different sage until it gave me a 1008 yds where I pulled the 91 clicks off it and added 1 more to come up with 92 clicks/23 moa. I then set up for the shot. I had a solid prone set up using the PRS SLIK tripod and their SSP-1 rifle cradle. The rear bag was my beloved Dog Gone Good large Field Bag. Once he was broadside and standing still I triggered the shot and could see a puff of dirt beyond and over his back. I was flabbergasted to say the least. I quickly pulled a range and this time it was 950 yds. He had moved in 70 yds while I was setting up for the shot. This time I got 83 clicks or 20.75 moa off the HD-B's. I quickly dialed down and got set for the shot. This time he was quartering towards me showing me his right side. I quickly checked my watch and realized I had 4 minutes of legal light. The MOAR reticle of my Nightforce NXS compact was getting hard to see so I turned the illumination on and was blessed with an easy to see reticle.

Some of you might ask how easy it is/was for me to convert 1/4 moa clicks into decimal form of moa. I cheat! I created a small EXCEL division 4 cheat sheet, miniaturize it and laminate it at Kinko's using their luggage lamination sized plastic and two luggage tags to attach it to the HD-B's. It's not caliber specific so it stays with the binos at all times.



At the shot, I saw no reaction. "I missed again" I thought. I bolted another round into the chamber and started to squeeze the trigger when I noticed him do a little stagger to the right. He caught himself, stood still and staggered to the left, but this time he kept sidestepping left until he could no longer keep his feet under himself. The bullet, I later found, had entered just to the inside of his right shoulder, penetrating through the thoracic cavity. I could find no exit in the dark when I got to him, without my smart phone, so no pics. Sorry. I broke him down in the dark using the gutless method so no looksie into the rib cage area.

Oh, and the Leica glass is pretty darn good world class glass too!

Alan

What in the [bleep] are you doing taking a 1008 yard shot with 20 minutes of legal shooting time left? Somebody ought to slap you upside the head and pull your hunting license for about 5 years.

^ this

GSSP,

Thanks for posting. Fun read.

Way to put 'em down Alan!

Good thing you had all the right equipment to put some tender meat in the freezer. You obviously did a lot of work (that's a hell of a lot of fun too) in advance to be able to get 'er done.

As you've read, there's a few around who haven't a clue of what can be done and wouldn't know step 1 of the journey to get there.

The 142 at over 2900 is awesome! What's the BC? H-4350?

Post some pics of your light rifle and fill us in!

Good job and congratulations!

Obviously you don't have a Ffuuking clue as to what he's doing.

You think it was luck that he won the Utah State Sniper Championship?

He knows what he's doing; the shot was akin to you taking a 200 yard shot in the same light in the same conditions...

Rick,

G7 = .318. G1 = .625. Rel 17 and Fed 205m seated .045 off the lands. This bullet didn't like it up close. Extraction is easy and cases look fine with no ejector marks or smears.

Just weeks before the season, I confirmed the ability of the rifle/round with the HD-B by taking it up to my private steel range. Running up first round hits using the two in combination with each other starting at 435 and going on to 558, 616, 732, 857, 1014 and 1390. I knew about the ability of the HD-B's max yardage of 1008 because I did the exact same thing at the 1014 yd target. Ranged a spot until I got 1008 yds and simply added 1 click.

These are all uphill angles too. This is my practice range. Note the distances and up hill angles annotated in yellow up the ridge.

Rick,

I took a peek at Goat Fu*&ers posts. He loves to run around to different forums and make snide little remarks. He's not worth it but thanks for watching my back bro!

Alan

They will be able to save money at his funeral, it won't take much of a coffin to bury a mouth...

I should be so lucky to have a place like that to shoot! NICE!

I just spewed coffee out of my nose. It was hot...

Five minutes from my house!

Nice shooting ....5 min I'm envious!

prairie_goat likes to run his mouth no doubt....if it isn't what he has, uses or likes, its not worth schit...............

Yep. Go ahead and try to turn this around on me.

Keep up with your unethical schit. When you have guys like Ringman and rcmagulia in your corner, you gotta be in the right...

The "unethical schit" ended up with a bullet through the vitals and meat in the freezer, doofus....

Come on Billy...... are you serious?

Is a 200 yard shot at a deer running full sprint into a canyon with 20 minutes of light left "ETHICAL"?

Give it up man......

Thanks for the write up and details. I too would like to see a picture of your rifle....

David

I've been using a pair of the HD-B's in 8X, since April. They've proven to be top notch so far. The program has been spot on for both my 6 Creedmoor, and 6.5 SAUM. I've used them up to 11,000', down to 2000', from 20*F to 100*F. Great tool! No more fumbling around for a range card. Under perfect conditions, I've ranged out past 2000 meters with them. The ergos and optics are what you expect from Leica..

Pat

How did your HD-B'S do at 11,000' when it came to baro pressure? My Leica 1600B ' s would not give me baro several years back when I was at 11,200'.

Alan

GSSP and Pat,
How are the HD-Bs in bright sunlight? I have used the Geovids almost since they came out and in bright sunlight it is some times difficult to get a reading even at 6-700 yards.
Bill

What does one have to do with the other? It's like a crackhead being confronted about his problem and saying "Meth kills more people, so I'm good". It's a deflection that doesn't cure the issue at hand.

I can't believe people are defending this sort of action.

The "dope" was spot on....there was a couple inches of fresh snow, and the temp was 30*F. They worked well in the snow and bright sunshine too. Angle compensation was perfect as well..

The HD-B's are a completely different animal compared to the Geovids....much better laser, and better optics to my eyes anyway.

Bill

In bright light I've been able to ALWAYS range to at least 1600; 2100 in optimum light.

Alan

What I can't believe is that you are taking a man to task that did nothing wrong, except the fact that he accomplished something that you can not.

I have had both 8X and now have 10X HD-b and both seem to have a bit of a green cast to them. Do you notice this? The rangefinding does surpass that of the EL, however...

I haven't noticed that, but when going head to head with my Leica 10X42 Ultravids in fast fading light, the Ultravids hold a slight edge over the HD-B's.

FWIW, my Vector 21(7X42) blows both away for optical clarity in any light. The accuity, power, and precision of the laser diode in that device is unmatched. I picked up the HD-B's for the size, weight, and ballistics program....I still have, and always will have the 21's.

For clarity, my 8X32 EL Swarovision beat the HD-b. I expected more with the Perger porro-prism. I am not disappointed with the rangefinding aspects of the Leica. I am waiting to see what Swarovski comes up with next...

What makes you think I couldn't accomplish said task?

It's exactly the same thing.....

there's a reasonable doubt about where that bullet is going to end up.... in the case of the OP, I have ten times the faith that he'd exicute the shot he made..... over Average Joe Hunter making a running shot at 200. But, I don't ever hear you bitching at guys for taking that shot..... why?

You're continual hounding of guys taking and making shots they PRACTICE ALL THE TIME..... and acceptance that just because a shot is inside an arbitrary yardage it's 'ethical'..... shows a serious disconnect usually reserved for Liberals.

Yeah, those guys making 200 yard running shots next to a canyon 4 minutes from dark are in the wrong too. Where are those guys posting up bragging pics on this site?

Is it ok 1 hour before dark?

What made this shot ethical?

I'm thinking about posting to one of the forums whose subject I know nothing about and letting all the regulars there know that they're a bunch of knuckle-draggers.

Hmmm...
I'm thinkin' I'll start with the Cowboy Action forum.

What makes a 35 yard bow shot ethical?

The confidence that you can make it, without any doubt. If there's any doubt, don't break the trigger or pull back the string.

Pay grades will vary....stay within them.

Just to clarify I was saying this to the equipment used

No doubt.

When a guy sends one over the animal's back, then takes a quartering shot at a wee bit closer range minutes from dark, there was damned sure some doubt about the shot. Especially when the word "flabbergasted" was used. Curious if we would've heard the story had it ended with a search in the dark for a wounded elk.

You.

In the case of big game, especially considering the circumstances? No way I'm taking that shot.

In the case of E-types or rocks? Sure.

Walking away to hunt another day or eating a tag is always an option, and either of those options beats a late night rodeo by a damn sight. It only takes one of those to make a guy seriously re-evaluate how bad he needs to make an iffy shot.

Apparently it, wasn't iffy since he dropped it. Only you choose to take the low road.

Does making the shot mean it's ok?

I dunno' Billy... I might not agree 100% with the extreme LRH guys, but in my mind, there are far more worthy causes to take to task. How about the Humane Society lobbying for shutting down wolf-hunting? Don't you think there are better fish to fry? Alan obviously puts his time in far more than 99.9% of people out there...

Personally, I'd rather get my blood boiling over some city-slicking salad eater telling us what we can and cannot hunt.

Tanner

PG,

To me, what it boils down to a personal decision. I put in the hours at the reloading bench and with trigger time. I shoot about 40-45 Saturday's a year and a few extra weekday mornings each week through the summer when I don't have to get a 16 yr up and off to school and even then, a few more mornings once he's on the bus. I know what my rifle/load will do and I know I will hit my mark. If I feel I can't I won't take the shot. The fact that I was flabbergasted was the remark I made because I knew it was going to hit the mark. What I didn't expect was that the "mark" moved in closer without me knowing about. It's called "hunting" not "shooting".


Where do you get off implying my ethics are less than yours? You're not anything to me. I stand by what I did and I surely stand by my comment about you taking snide remarks at not just my OP but about 90% of your comments on other sections of this website (just looking at the first page of your posts) are negative in nature. As I said, it's a personal decision accompanied by one's abilities.

Alan

Time to ignore the dude.

The rifle in the shooting range picture isn't the rifle you were using, was it? Some of us would like to hear a bit more about its stats and see a pic if you have one.

Also good to know that the Matrix will smoke elk at a Grand!

What equipment do you not approve of?

It makes reading some of these threads easier.

Have fun with your rodeo. It's coming.

P.S. I could really give two schits what some wannabe sniper on the internet thinks about me. Peace Out.

Yet you are the first guy to throw out the judgements on others.

Do you see the hypocrisy? I do.

Rick,

Sorry, I had to run out and get some groceries. With a wife on dialysis, I do it ALL!

Here is my light (9 lb) 6.5x47. The heavy one in the earlier pic with the mountain in the background is my heavy, 17.5 lb 6.5x47.

Pierce SA and 20 moa rail
McMillan Rem Sporter
24.5" #3 Broughton with a 2-port Farrell brake
Rifle Basix @ 2 lb.
Farrell 30mm rings
Latest NF NXS compact 2.5-10x42 with MOAR reticle and zero stop.
PTG BDL bottom metal
Pillar and glass bedded
Built by Chris Matthews of Longshot rifles, Missouri. Now out of business. Wonderful 'smith, horrible businessman. I found him on Accurateshooter.com as a benchmark gunsmith.

Sorry for the poor pic. Just now took it.

None the question was why would you take the shot. The answer is the subject line no objection at all. Wanted that to be clear is all

9 pounds is just right.

I have problems putting 20 MOA rails on my hunting guns. Can't ever get a comb that's high enough to give me a good cheek weld with sight picture. I see you have a rifle backpack on your comb. I even have to do that without the rail on some of my rifles with the scope as low as possible. I always use a 40mm objective to help get it as low as possible.

I hate that

As I understand it, Fred doesn't have a dog in this fight. He was just giving an approval which I thank him and all the rest of the support which has occurred.

Alan

Actually the rifle I built on the Manners EH-1 is working well in that department. No rail but no backpack either.

I have a Manners 1A folder in bound between T-day and Xmas. It will have the Elite Tactical Shell in Elite Tactical GAP camo. Should be able to drop 2-3 lbs off the AICS 2.0 I'm currently running on my 338 Edge on a Surgeon 1086 LA.

1600 is amazing. Guess I am on the hook for an HD-B..damn it..
Have either of you had any experience with the 15x HDs?

It is obvious that you could careless that you are totally of base and a dick too boot.

GSSP, I enjoyed your post. Very, very interesting. Can you tell us more about your rifle (barrel, length, contour, stock, weight, etc.).

Thanks,


Jordan

There it is.

Alan,

You need to vacuum

And cook and clean, and shop and pay bills and work, and take care of the sick wife and raise the 16 yr old son and, oh yeah, SHOOT!!! Wait, vacuming is my son's chore.

Alan

So, no hesitation or qualms using the 10X scope? Lots of discussion about magnification lately.

Never mind on the reticle question, went back and read the OP.

Alan, if I may ask, why did you chose the 6.5 x 47 Lapua over the 6.5 x 284? Doesn't the .284 have the capacity to shoot a fair bit faster with your bullet weight? Just curious.

Thanks,


Jordan

Jordan

Six years back I had my heavier 6.5x47 built for sniper competition. I loved the cartridge so much I built this to be lighter and still have a longer barrel life than, say, a 6.5x284.

Alan

Probably couldn't shoot the 142 much faster in the 6.5-284 to make it worth the while.

Now with the .264 Win.....

My new wildcat will be about like a .264 Win with a longer neck and no belt. I can hardly wait!

gosh alan you really stired up a shy et tay storm. on another note how do you like that particular model of nightforce?? I like the MOAR reticle I have it in my 3-15 model. what did you think of using 10x and that reticle to make that far of a shot?? beyond that how do you like that reticle in a 10x scope.

One floater doesn't make a storm...

David

Cummins,

I still have my previous 2.5-10x32 NF, on my AR15, and it's a great scope but the new 2.5-10x42 stands head and shoulders above the 32mm. The old turrets have a sort of spongy movement, 10 moa/revolution where as the new one has solid, 20 moa per revolution, where the clicks are VERY tactile and audible. Other than starting to loose the reticle due to the fading light and simply switching on the illumination, I didn't feel under "magnified" at all. My 1011 yd plate is 13" high and 22" wide, just perfect for an elks vitals and I practice on it all the time.

Alan

no one around seems to have a very good selection of compact NF models. it looks like the compact knobs are the same as the full size NXS knobs

Kents Grocery store in Tremonton, ask for Jeff or Dave..They sell more optics out of that grocery store than cabelas' and sportsmans combined..No chit.

I have a feeling you will like the prices as well.

I'm a NF dealer.

Oh ya, congrats on the spiker GSSP. I bought a general bull tag, but should have just got a spike tag close to home. Seen a few decent bulls on the south slope..I just have a hard time pulling the trigger on elk for some reason...that Some reason being they are big as hell..

Rosco,

Big has hell as in "room in freezer". That's my sentiment. A neighbor called me up saying he has some mitigations tags and was offering me a cow or doe tag. Had to go home and check on the freezer space. I'm taking a cow tag. It will either be my 257 Roberts, the 6.5x47 again or my Ruger NMBH Bisley in 45 Colt topped with a Trijicon RMR and my own 282 gr cast WFN by LBT.

Alan

Alan, I guess nobody told you that you need at least 16x, and really it should be 20x, to shoot that far??

GSSP,

Great story of your long range prize. I got a bit of a chuckle about the sniper comment. I know a few guys who hold that designation that would be happy to shoot alongside you and compare notes, learn about new equipment, etc.

Well done Friend.

GSSP you did good.

Nice work Alan!

I've been thinking about giving another 6.5x47 Lapua a try and going sporter this time around. I have a 6.5 8 twist rock rem standard sporter I've considered sending to long rifles inc on their snipers hide group buy. They have a reamer with a .295 neck and .123" freebore that I think should work well with 130 vlds. I'm thinking 22" barrel length and a lighter weight stock, probably a Ti take off to start and get an edge later.

I think I could do a lot of things with a sporter 6.5x47. I love my creedmoor but that Lapua just fits a rem mag box better.

Bb

Please elaborate a little more on this.

Thanks,

David

Congrats - enjoy those steaks.

My 16 yr old son and I have been tearing up the jerky so far.

Alan

My creedmoor rounds with a 140 vld shoot best at 2.89" coal. It's on a tac 30 aw so it's ok there but my rem actions mag boxes only allow out to 2.83". It was chambered with the standard creedmoor reamer which has .199" freebore which is a lot. You can get a creedmoor reamer with less freebore but people have them had pressure issues with factory ammo. The Lapua is a shorter case and allows you to seat things out a bit and still be under 2.83".

That's the irony of the creedmoor. They touted it as a great short action round and then had to give it so much freebore that you can't kiss with a vld and fit in a rem short action. I still think the creedmoor is a great round but the Lapua fits a short mag box better and leaves you more room to chase.

Bb

Thanks!

David

Don't want to talk for BB but let me chime in.

Take a standard 2.820" long magazine. Some may vary in length, but, hopefully, you get my meaning. The 260 Rem case is 2.035" long with a standard 2.8" seated bullet OAL per Wikipedia. The 6.5 Creedmoor case is 1.920" long with a standard 2.820" seated bullet OAL per Wikipedia. The 6.5x47 case is 1.843" long with a standard 1.736" seated OAL, per Lapua.

When seated to the standard OAL, the shorter cartridges are going to be able to "chase" the lands as the throat wears out through out the life of the barrel. In a longer cartridge, such as the 260 Rem, one might not be able to chase the lands since the standard OAL is already at the max for the magazine anyway.

My sniper grade 6.5x47 with 2200+ rounds, when using the Berger 140 Hybrid seated at .015" off the lands, where it likes to be, is at 2.85"; beyond the standard length for most magazine any way. Fortuneately, the AI mag length accommodates this.

Help much?

Alan

Ha! Hadn't realized Bb had posted before I came back, hour later to post. Good post/explanation by the way.

Alan

I've owned a couple Creedmoors and still have one. Although they both shot well jammed (130VLD), they also shot well with some jump --- lots of jump actually. If building again, I'd have no qualms using Kiff's reamer with less freebore. I don't shoot factory ammo anyway. The bullet is still is a nice place in the case when loaded to typical 700 mag confines.

Im not knocking the 6.5x47. I may do one in the future.

I have a Creedmoor that almost seems indifferent to jump (or much of anything else)....

But I understand the points that were made.

David

As do I...and I know a little about your Creedmoor(grin). I shoulda kept it!

Great shot and gear you have there. You did well.

Love jerky, never tried elk jerky. Bet it's fabulous.

Re: 6.5's - never met one I disliked.
Had TCU, 6.5-308 Win (pre-260), 260's, Swedes, and a Creedmoor.

Running a 47 currently

Alan,
Great story, great shooting.
Enjoyed reading .
Chuck

Nice poke GSSP, I like your setup! I would appreciate your opinion on the killing performance of the Matrix whenever you form one.

Don't pay any attention to the the "Goat", he thinks ethics in hunting only apply to those with your ability. It has never dawned on him that any ethics argument that can be made against LR hunting applies to all hunting.......

The world is full of "ass clown's" and he is the perennial champ. However, top contenders abound on the Campfire these days so "The Goat" is just trying hard to defend the title...



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