The Nov/Dec 2014 issue of Sports Afield arrived here today, containing a John Barsness article "Still The One". The article begins
Think had for a minute, or even an hour, and try to come up with any mechanical device developed before 1900 that's still considered the best. Steam locomotive? Pocket watch? Alexander Graham Bell's version of the smartphone? Nope, nope, and nope.
Well-researched, well-written, and well-illustrated, John's article extols the Model 98 Mauser as the best of the bolt-actions for hunting rifles.
It took only a minute or so to come up with the likelihood that the best dropping-block action for a hunting rifle was developed before 1900. However, there doesn't appear to be any consensus of "best dropping block" that is equivalent to that for the M98 in the bolt-action category. The Farquharson, Rolling Block, Sharps, Sharps-Borchardt, M1885, all have advocates for best-in-category.
However, apart from firearms, it took a little less than an hour for me to come up with another mechanical device in which a pre-1900 model was best: Dover hand-held hand-operated egg beaters. Like the M1898, the Dover beater incorporated a number of patents. Several million were sold before 1900. They became so popular and commonplace that some recipe books used the term "dovering eggs" to indicate the eggs were to be beaten with a hand-held mixer. Like the M98, the patents on Dover beaters have expired long ago, and there are modern imitators for sale, perhaps with "improvements"; none do their job better than a good old Dover. You can find them in antique shops and eBay. Also like the M98, prices for original Dover beaters have started to rise sharply. --Bob . .
The safety pin and humble paper clip come immediately to mind, though I would rather have a Mauser '98. Well done John, keep our minds focused where betterment lay.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
In nominating the Dover mixer, I was attempting to stay within John's category of a "mechanical device". My inference from the article was that, first, the device had to possess some moderate (at least) mechanical complexity. Second, it also must have been available in several design variations so that one or another pre-1900 model of the type of device might be called "best". --Bob
I hesitate to state the obvious here but another mechanical device developed before 1900 that is "still the one"- how abut the 1894 Winchester? . and invented in America, too.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
A Colt SAA has got to be near the top of pre1900 inventions...
Very likely true. However--
JB wrote to support the proposition that the Mauser 98 is the best hunting bolt action ever. He argued this by citing many points of the M98's superiority to other actions, and noted that the M98 is widely regarded as being the best bolt action for a hunting rifle. (I found his arguments convincing, but I will admit prejudice; even the shotgun I use for turkey hunting is an M98, somewhat modified.)
The challenge which introduced the article was to name another pre-1900 mechanism besides the M98 that was better than anything since developed in its class. The only example I could come up with quickly was a hand-cranked egg beater, which compared with hunting rifles is admittedly a pretty obscure category.
In this context, the question for the Colt SAA would be this: Is the Colt SAA, a pre-1900 mechanism, better than any other single action revolver? For the title of best-in-class, the Ruger and Freedom Arms revolvers, introduced post-1900, might be tough competitors of the Colt.
A previous suggestion that the M94 Winchester might be the best lever action for hunting is intriguing. It was developed well before 1900, and is undeniably the most popular such action. Would it be considered a better lever action than the M71?
A previous suggestion that the M94 Winchester might be the best lever action for hunting is intriguing. It was developed well before 1900, and is undeniably the most popular such action. Would it be considered a better lever action than the M71?
I hesitate to state the obvious here but another mechanical device developed before 1900 that is "still the one"- how abut the 1894 Winchester? . and invented in America, too.
Savage 99 has it beat six ways to Sunday (and still pre 1900).
I would nominate the Thermos Bottle, invented in 1892. Originally called a vacuum flask or Dewar flask after its inventor, it has been keeping hot things hot and cold things cold for over a century.
But the mystery remains: how do it know? How do it know?
This has been very interesting, partly because (per usual) most of the people who've posted haven't read the article.
I probably should have specifically mentioned "complex" mechanical devices, but space is always at a premium in magazine articles these days, and I thought my list of other devices would make my point plain. If we really want to be sticklers, probably the oldest human-made device still considered the best for the purpose is the club, and millions are still made every year, whether in the form of baseball bats, golf clubs or nunchuks.
One of several points made in the article is that shooters are STILL spending money to convert old 98 Mauser military actions into custom hunting rifles, whether "using" rifles for hard knocks in the wilderness, or rifles made by famous semi-artists with stocks of the fanciest walnut.
Very few people do that with old Model 94 Winchesters, and as we have seen here, there isn't anywhere near as much agreement about exactly which lever action is "best," even among Winchester addicts. The suggestion that the 1873 Colt is the best single-action ever is even more debatable.
While the Savage 99 is a great lever-action (and demonstrably "better" in many ways than any of the outside-hammer, tube magazine lever-actions, whether made by Winchester or not), it isn't even made anymore. 98 Mausers are, and most of the essential parts of new 98's are interchangeable with those in the actions of original military rifles--and you can't rebuild old Dover eggbeaters with parts from those sold in Wal-Mart.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
This has been very interesting, partly because (per usual) most of the people who've posted haven't read the article.
I probably should have specifically mentioned "complex" mechanical devices, but space is always at a premium in magazine articles these days, and I thought my list of other devices would make my point plain. If we really want to be sticklers, probably the oldest human-made device still considered the best for the purpose is the club, and millions are still made every year, whether in the form of baseball bats, golf clubs or nunchuks.
One of several points made in the article is that shooters are STILL spending money to convert old 98 Mauser military actions into custom hunting rifles, whether "using" rifles for hard knocks in the wilderness, or rifles made by famous semi-artists with stocks of the fanciest walnut.
Very few people do that with old Model 94 Winchesters, and as we have seen here, there isn't anywhere near as much agreement about exactly which lever action is "best," even among Winchester addicts. The suggestion that the 1873 Colt is the best single-action ever is even more debatable.
While the Savage 99 is a great lever-action (and demonstrably "better" in many ways than any of the outside-hammer, tube magazine lever-actions, whether made by Winchester or not), it isn't even made anymore. 98 Mausers are, and most of the essential parts of new 98's interchangeable with those in the actions of original military rifles--and you can't rebuild old Dover eggbeaters with parts from those sold in Wal-Mart.
I guess my point is not which is the best ever, but the lasting impact is similar. I would also guess there could be a good debate as to the 98 being the best bolt action available today, as there have been modified versions that certainly eclipse the original.
The Colt still functions and works reliably today without modifications the same as the 98 Mauser. Improvements is a term that can be loosely used in either case, but as they were originally designed, they both perform well...
Been around one of those lately? They have changed a lot.
Lasting impact, socially and politically is impossible to measure, though. The America we know is the direct result of the cotton gin & the steam engine.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
Although she had electric and hand turned egg beaters, my late Mother always used one of these, eggbeater , for beating eggs used in Her cooking. She was a great cook and did everything Her way even if it was harder and took more time. I miss Her a lot. miles
The Nov/Dec 2014 issue of Sports Afield arrived here today, containing a John Barsness article "Still The One". The article begins[list][*][i]Think had for a minute, or even an hour, and try to come up with any mechanical device developed before 1900 that's still considered the best. Steam locomotive? Pocket watch? Alexander Graham Bell's version of the smartphone? Nope, nope, and nope.[ .
Automobile: No other mechanical device did more to expand hunting horizons and for the most part still the best way to get there.
The article was about ONE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, specifically the 98 Mauser, not an essay about the history of human technology in general.
I always love the posts generated when somebody quotes a couple sentences from an entire article, and then a bunch of Campfire guys who've never read the article make irrelevant comments.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
On a different tack, thanks for the inspiration. Will begin my next article on hunting rifles by going back to the beginnings of human history, reviewing all the changes in technology from the first moment we made fire. Then I'll finish up the piece with a paragraph on whatever subject the article is supposedly about.
Dang! I just remembered another gun writer who uses that technique all the time....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I love old mechanical devices and one of the reasons I like repeating shotguns as they just represent Yankee ingenuity. Having said that one of my favorite gizmos is my grandfathers old hand crank corn sheller . Drop a cob in the top turn the crank and its spins around while all the kernels are removed and then the spent cob is ejected out the front takes maybe 15-20 seconds.
It means you have come late to the dance and all the good looking girls have been taken and you get the zitty, buck toothed skank and didn't realize the 222 Remington magnum was already on the dance floor...
Locales was what I meant-it just didn't look right-but you are right I'm close, and I would bet it is more than rumor.
Addition: to stay a little on track, a slimmed down and balanced 98 would be a nice choice. Started out with a 98 in 8mm and had a re barreled 09 Argentine with a Brown pounder that in hindsight I should have kept.
The article was about ONE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, specifically the 98 Mauser, not an essay about the history of human technology in general.
I always love the posts generated when somebody quotes a couple sentences from an entire article, and then a bunch of Campfire guys who've never read the article make irrelevant comments.
So, basically the same thing that happens on almost every thread here, every day?
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
As a matter of fact that's how I started posting on the Campfire, years ago. I'd been lurking for six months or so, then somebody mentioned an article of mine that had just appeared, quoting maybe three sentences. Whereupon several guys posted that I was FOS, so I posted, explaining the context, and exactly why they were FOS. And another Campfire tradition began....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Bailey hand plane, as made by Stanley and many others- and still in production. I use one of my No.s 1 through 8 hand planes at least a couple times a week in my shop/job, as do pretty much all serious woodworkers I know. As with the Mauser 98, parts from current production planes generally fit early pre-1900 ones. In fact, the No. 2 I use probably more than all the rest combined, was made pre-1899.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Unchanged since 1882, and still the best way to open a bottle of wine.
Quote
Sommelier knife
A sommelier knife, waiter's friend or wine key is a corkscrew in a folding body similar to a pocket knife. It was conceived by the German Karl Wienke in 1882 and patented in Germany, England, and America.
No modern bolt action rifle design has improved on the basic Mauser 98. Some are cheaper to make, some are fancier, some may be stronger (questionable), but the M98 sets the standard in style, functionality and ......
There you go, wine bibbing. Wine openers helped France stay on the "most occupied" status for two consecutive World Wars...
Note that it was invented by a German...
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
There you go, wine bibbing. Wine openers helped France stay on the "most occupied" status for two consecutive World Wars...
Note that it was invented by a German...
The sneaky bastids...
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
There you go, wine bibbing. Wine openers helped France stay on the "most occupied" status for two consecutive World Wars...
Note that it was invented by a German...
It was also Germans that planted the trees along the boulevard to the Arch de Triumphe so that whenever the Germans invaded France, they could do it in the shade...
John, in your opinion what would be the best genuine Mauser 98 action to build a working rifle on? Probably not interested in mark -x, or non C ring FN's.
I like Mark X's and FN's (and don't really care whether they're C-ring or not), partly because all the major "sporterizing" stuff has already been done. Plus, the bolt handle shape hardly ever interferes with scopes, and the knob is swept back far enough that you don't have to reach forward for it.
But if you just don't like either action, there are several good military actions--and for a working rifle the conversions required wouldn't be all that expensive. I'd even just rework the military trigger.
1909 Argentines are normally very well made, and they already have a hinged floorplate if that's what you want, but they're usually pretty expensive these days. (The real 98 super-custom loonies often replace the floorplate with custom bottom metal anyway, even though it's really all that distinguishes 1909's from other good military actions.)
Usually you can get a decent pre-WWII VZ-24 action for a lot less money than the 1909's, but the actions made during German occupation can be iffy. I'd probably look for a good VZ-24, and the non-hinged military floorplates won't EVER open accidentally. The German- or FN-made military 98's for South American countries are also usually good.
Some FN commercial actions came with the military style floorplate, though more streamlined and without the extra-locking screws. It's what's on my FN-actioned .338, for instance.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Got a chuckle out of this caption on page 70 Nov/Dec 2014 issue of Sports Afield. "Few mechanical devices developed in the eighteenth century are still considered the very best. This K98 was made in Erfurt factory in 1915."
Didn't know that the 98 Mauser really meant 1798.
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Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
The kimber shares virtually no desgign features with a 98. I dont know how to be more clear. The only lighter version I am aware of is Stuart Satterlees TI action.
This has been very interesting, partly because (per usual) most of the people who've posted haven't read the article.
I probably should have specifically mentioned "complex" mechanical devices, but space is always at a premium in magazine articles these days, and I thought my list of other devices would make my point plain. If we really want to be sticklers, probably the oldest human-made device still considered the best for the purpose is the club, and millions are still made every year, whether in the form of baseball bats, golf clubs or nunchuks.
One of several points made in the article is that shooters are STILL spending money to convert old 98 Mauser military actions into custom hunting rifles, whether "using" rifles for hard knocks in the wilderness, or rifles made by famous semi-artists with stocks of the fanciest walnut.
Very few people do that with old Model 94 Winchesters, and as we have seen here, there isn't anywhere near as much agreement about exactly which lever action is "best," even among Winchester addicts. The suggestion that the 1873 Colt is the best single-action ever is even more debatable.
While the Savage 99 is a great lever-action (and demonstrably "better" in many ways than any of the outside-hammer, tube magazine lever-actions, whether made by Winchester or not), it isn't even made anymore. 98 Mausers are, and most of the essential parts of new 98's interchangeable with those in the actions of original military rifles--and you can't rebuild old Dover eggbeaters with parts from those sold in Wal-Mart.
I guess my point is not which is the best ever, but the lasting impact is similar. I would also guess there could be a good debate as to the 98 being the best bolt action available today, as there have been modified versions that certainly eclipse the original.
The Colt still functions and works reliably today without modifications the same as the 98 Mauser. Improvements is a term that can be loosely used in either case, but as they were originally designed, they both perform well...
I gotta ask... Which bolt action do you consider to be better than a 98, as a HUNTING rifle?
Toilet paper. Toilet paper rolls were patented in 1883. Nothing better yet....
No comparison Worth every penny of the increased cost.
Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
its always interesting and entertaining to compare action designs. Another way to compare is to look at a part by part comparison of the primary action components and rate and compare them. Too me, the primary components would be as follows although I might have forgot some:
1) receiver design 2) smoothness of feeding 3) breeching and gas handling 4) extractor design 5) ejector design and location 6) safety design and function 7) trigger design and function 8) floorplate function 9) bolt ( is it one piece or fabricated with 2 or more pieces)
I would say that for # 1, 2,5, 6, 7, and 9 the old model 70 rates pretty high.
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