Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Lab-springer cross

My current lab can no longer hunt as he developed retinal degeneration and is now blind at age 7.

I have had several labs and one springer and think perhaps the best dog would be a cross. Less genetic problems due to a larger gene pool, better size (for my needs) less coat maintenance than a springer, less shedding than a lab.

I would appreciate any first hand experience that anyone can relate. Thanks

That sounds like a great idea, if you try that I would be very interested in seeing the results. Never had a Lab but have had Springers.

Intentionally creating a mix breed? What are you gonna do with the pup's, free to a good home? Humane Society is full of mixed breed dog's.

I was biting my tongue.
Was hoping someone else was gonna bring this to light..^^^^

It is unfortunate that dog people somehow believe that a little cross breeding is detrimental. Dogs suffer a high incidence of recessive genetic conditions because of this narrow minded breeding.

Breeding hunting dogs with similar traits ie. flushers to flushers pointing breeds to pointing breeds would only help expand the gene pool and lessen those genetic problems.

This is the same reason marrying your sister or first cousin is likely to produce children that are less well off.

If you look at a lot of old hunting photos you see a lot of mixed breed dogs and a wagon load of birds, as it was (and is) more important to breed two dogs that can hunt well than two dogs of the same breed.

Had a Springador...nice but had a bad habit of trying to bite children...Springer rage?

Yeah, why do it? You have generations upon generations with standard breeds to get the traits just right. Cross 'em and you don't know what you'll get, more generations of careful selective breeding to get traits standardized.

A neighbor got talked into two lab-GSH crosses from the same litter - "We're gonna make super dogs." One was very lab-ish and the other more like a GSH. Both nice but very different dogs. One hunts like a lab and the other sorta like a GSH. Nothing super about it.

I have hunted over a number of dogs that were the result of accidental crosses. Some were better than others but most were worthwhile hunting dogs if the owner spent the time...

The thinking that crossing lessens the probability of genetic defects does not bear out, in my experience. But I dunno why...

a neighbor had a very good hunting rott-lab cross that crippled up early and then developed intestinal issues. I owned the lab sire of the litter that he came from. The litter resulted from a neighbor hood party. Old Peet partied harder than I did that night, but he was 8 y.o. and very healthy at the time. Lived to be 12...

I have hunted over crosses of

Shorthair-Pit Bull
Lab-Shorthair
Chessie-Shorthair
Lab-Brittany
Lab-Rottweiler

Of these, the Shorthair-pit cross is still hunting. 5 y.o. IIRC, and a pretty good dog in most respects.

Not saying wouldn't work. However, both breeds have enough genetic diversity that inbreeding is not a problem. I'm not and advocate of line breeding either as often occurs in the bird dog circles.

How do you know you are going to get the size you want with the coat type you want? Like many here you request opinions, but have obviously made up your mind re: the direction your want to go with your comments of less genetic problems, larger gene pool, etc. You don't want differing opinions, you want people to agree with you. Have it it, if that is want you want, but don't BS the players.

Again, how do you know what kind of pups you are going to end up with? More Lab, more Springer, half and half. You don't, you are hoping.

tcp,

Breeding (genetics) is a very complex science, well beyond my knowledge so I leave breeding to breeders. Part of it is crossing lines so recessive genes stay recessive. Good breeders put a lot of effort into that, they don't want physically inferior dogs. Ferinstance hip displasia is a problem in Brittanys. A good breeder will check back several generations for certified sound dogs - x-rays, vet exams, evaluated and graded by an expert. Of course there are a lot of not so good breeders.

You don't know what the pups will be like on a cross. A family friend bred his female cocker with a neighbor's poodle when cockerpoos were the rage. The pups all looked like they were from different litters and their traits varied as much. We got Dandy who was closer to a poodle but with calmer temperament, the ideal cockerpoo. Smartest dog I ever knew. His sister Candy looked like an odd cocker and had the same traits including the piddle problem. I don't know if they ever got cockerpoos to breed true.

So it's like a box of chocolates, you may get one like you want but don't be surprised if you don't. Not that looks necessarily reflect hunting ability, just you can't be sure of the result.

I have owned and hunted over several mixed breed dogs. Some were great and others not so great. If you decide to a do the breeding ,you will just need to make sure that you have homes for all of the pups. The point made that the appearance of the pups will not be consistant is very valid.

If both parents are good bird dogs I think you have a very good chance of getting some good pups that would make good bird hunters.

No doubt, but he is looking for a certain size with certain specific hair characteristics.

Different set of expectations than just having a good hunter.

TCP I had a Lab-Springer cross!!! We named him Curly and docked his tail,,what a great dog!!

He was a hunting machine on land or in the water, we live on a lake and he would swim for miles when the salmon were in or just harrassing the sticklebacks.

He weighed about 45-50 lbs and was built like a beefier springer.

I'd do it again if we weren't so wrapped up in Karelian Bear dogs now.

Jim

I've seen more than a few of these "accidental breedings" in the field. You really have no idea what you are going to get from one, as noted above. The world already has waaaay too many mutts which will just end up in the pound, eventually.

Just say NOOOOOOOOO............

NB

You are right. Any breeding creates a random assortment of genes in the offspring and there is no way to predict which get what. I bred my 80lb male to my friend's 55lb female and the pup I kept turned out to be taller and heavier the father by quite a bit. My son is 6'6", I am 5'10" ( no kidding)

No where in my post did I suggest that I was going to do any breeding. I asked for input from those that had expirience with lab/springer crosses. I am not BSing anyone.

As I have been happy with both labs and springers breeding them to combine their traits makes sense to me.

I actually have had a great deal of training in genetics. You never know precisely what you are going to get. Do you believe all the pups from the same litter have the same potential? Likely not. Better parents equal better offspring, generally and one great parent can't make up the difference for a dud on the other side of the pairing.

There are more than enough MUTTS in the world as it is
Breeding a dog with known genetic defects makes even less sense.

But backyard breeders do what they want, not what is best

I had a rescue dog lab/newfi that was a great waterfowler. He lived to be 12 and was a super family dog.

So he still hasn't said what he's gonna do with all the left over pup's! What he's planning is extremely foolish and irresponsible. You guy's that have had mix breed's you liked, good for you. What happened to the rest of the pup's in the litter? A guy here in Ore several years ago go caught releasing pup's on the grasslands and leaving them. Go to the local pound or H.S. shelter and count the unwanted dogs. Most of them get put to sleep!

WHERE did I state that I was planning on breeding any dogs?

My current male was used as a stud at age 5, he had no known problems genetic or otherwise. Unfortunately, at age 7 he became blind. I hope his pups do not inherit the condition. None of them will be able to pass anything on as all have been fixed. Five of the seven pups were kept by family as both parents were exceptional hunting dogs that were easy to train and live with.

Before you call anyone out on anything you perhaps should get your facts strait. Read my original post and point out where I said I was breeding any dogs.

Where did you state you weren't?

The only way to get that cross is for someone to breed them

It makes little difference if it's you or not, it's still a bad idea

If you didn't want opinions, maybe you shouldn't have asked for them

It's always about them. There are a multitude of hunting Dogs types out there that have been developed over centuries of trial and error. Pretty much something for everyone. Yet some think they can improve on the proven.

Would be hard to find a dedicated Spaniel or Lab breeder that would think this was all that great of an idea. Pick a Dog up from an accidental breeding and you may have a great hunter and good on you. Doing it on purpose is something else.

It does seem you have trouble reading, as my first post asked for input from anyone with first hand experience with a lab/springer cross, unless you have any, you can keep your opinion to your self.

I have experience with people breeding mutts that end up getting dumped somewhere, or taken to a pound where they end up dead, all because someone thought it would be a good idea to make more mutts.

Hi,

I'm no expert, but I think the dog with the traits that you are describing is called a pudelpointer. They have a breeding alliance in the US. They are not a lab springer mix, but they should have the characteristics of what you describe, plus they point..if that's ok.

Another dog with similar traits would be a GSP. There's some diversity in that breed from field trialers to foot hunters, to the German training training system etc.

You could look up breeds on the navhda website and see the breeders records with faults and stuff too.

Anyways, good luck.

Give a Springer a short hair cut once a month and the problem of hair maintenance is solved. A good Wahl clipper is around $45.

Of course if grooming you Dog occasionally is a maintenance problem, then I don't know of any breed that would be a good fit.

A lot of guys pick their dogs for low maintenance. A guy can only handle so much in the way of time spent on his hobbies.

some guys love to shoot and hunt, but never handload.
Some guys love to hunt, but rarely shoot in the off season.

I myself tend to gravitate towards dogs with low maintenance coats.

Those who don't have time to periodically bathe, brush and perhaps keep their hair at an acceptable length perhaps shouldn't have one. Nor do they care if you don't do all that good a job of cutting it yourself. I've found out they pretty much appreciate the Master spending a little time helping them out. After all, they can't do all that good of a job on their own. Around here there are ticks and pretty much daily I look for them. I've already lost one to Lymes. Ticks could care less wither they have long hair or short.
On top of that frequent hands on allows one to feel for lumps or places that hurt.

What's low maintenance? No Dog is really low maintenance when you factor in vet visits for shots, food, etc over what we hope is a long life. Those are real money spent. Grooming is free if you do it yourself. I can cut and give mine a bath in less than an hour. Bush his coat out? 10minutes max.

If he has been busting ass for me in the thickets; stepping on thorns, perhaps cutting his ears or getting stickers in his pits, then it takes longer. Then again he went places I wouldn't, ran 10 times more than I walked and for the most part didn't bitch about it.

Maintaining their coats takes comparatively little time in the course of a year. The fire takes up more of my time in a year than looking after my Dog's coat and health. Much more. Think about that for a moment. It's all part of the deal we make with them and it goes with the territory.

You have a Dog that lives in the house then expect to have hair
floating around. Naturally some are worse than others.


Addition: Ya, I have hair in the house, car and truck. Open up a gun case? You got it, hair. Thank God for electric sweepers.

Oh yeah! Try living with a full coat Apso. In addition to needing to be combed and brushed EVERY day (else they mat) you'll find hair in rooms where the dog's never been, even when the door is usually closed. But oh they look so much prettier than the convenience trimmed Apsos.

Even better, handling during grooming reinforces bonding, and I just plain like it.

There is a clever signature I've seen on one of the forums I visit, it goes something like, "In this house, dog hair is both an accessory and a condiment, depending what it's found upon."

We just go back in from quail hunting with my two small munsters, after brushing the briars from them and massaging some musher secret in their paws and burt's bee hand salve to their ear and belly scrapes the post hunt ritual is complete.

Now one is sprawled across my chest asleep, with her ear on my chin nearly blocking the laptop screen. Once she wakes up, I'll clean the birds and the gun, until then it's time for a beer and dog nap.

I wanted a springer on the smaller side because of how thick it is where I hunt. My springer did so well that I found another smallish AKC registered male to breed her with to get one of the pups for myself. Mom was great as were the pups so no problem getting good homes for all of them and I interviewed each of the new owners to do my best to make sure they were the right ones. Labs are fine dogs but the pressure and demand for them created an opportunity for some bad dog breeders to not be careful about what they are doing. Resulting hip problems and other issues are too often the result.

Where I live, I always tell someone to look for someone selling dogs who loves the breed, has them around and in the house and try to talk you out of owning one of their dogs because they want to find out about you. Not bad mouthing dog breeders but I prefer to deal with folks who are not in it for the money. I too believe that dog breeds are pretty well sorted out for what we desire so I stick with pure breed dogs. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Where are you going to find this dog? When you find such a litter, what are the odds that the parents are worth a hoot? People with legit dogs don't as a rule just let em run around getting knocked up unintentionally, and don't as a rule do breedings that they A) cant sell, B) cant compete C) have minimally accurate prediction of the outcome.


I just bred my female lab, after having elbows and hips xrayed and evaluated, and having 6 genetic disorders tested for, and determining that she is clear of all of them, and having her eyes evaluated to insure she's not going blind early like your dog- I have a lot of money tied up in a breeeding that is where I'm sourcing my next dog. THere' are some pretty nice springers around- but I decided to go with a lab who had comparable genetic testing to my own, as well as performnace pedigree and record that is outstanding, as well as being with a pro who is a friend of mine, so I've gotten to train with the dog, as well as watch him run in field trials, so I've seen the good bad and the ugly. Oh yeah, I've seen 5 pups from 2 prior breeedings as well- and though the bitches weren't as nice as mine- the puppies were damn nice, and I would feed one any day. SO now I have a pregnant bitch who is going to whelp a litter of pups indoors, where they will be exposed to my son, other dogs, vaccum cleaners, dishwashers, etc. they will also get water, birds, and big runs on the farm, rides in the dog box, nights with a sibling alone in a kennel run, and in a crate.
familiarized with trucks, 4wheelers, and boats.

lots of time, energy, money and thought went into and are continuing to be poured into producing the best labrador I can- and I only need 1. some 6-7 other people are going to benefit from all of that extensive commitment of resources, however.

were I you, I would be looking for someone like myself who is absolutely commited to producing the best pup they can, and after evaluating there dogs, to see if they will fit your needs, pony up the dough and go home happy. there shouldn't be any freaking guesswork in getting a gundog/family companion.

I had a springer/lab cross as a kid that was the best dog we ever had. She was the size of a large springer, had a docked tail and was so "birdy" it was unbelievable. We had her given to us by an individual that was moving and she retrieved birds with zero training from us. On top of that, she was great with kids and other dogs.

Seems like a lot of folks are wrapped up in proven breeds and purebred dogs. I don't buy into that at all. I am not a breeder nor do I profess to be an expert by any means, but in my experience there is nothing wrong (and often much better) with a cross breed. Paying money for a purebred doesn't make it a better dog, nor is a free dog necessarily problematic. Don't forget that all the "purebred" breeds we have now are a result of cross-breeding at some point.

At the end of the day I care about having a dog that is obedient, trainable, healthy, and fits the job I have for it. I couldn't care less if it has papers.

SS

Screw it. I'm sold. Where is the litter? I'd like to go get one too. That is, assuming the parents are both sound and healthy. They both, the springer and the lab that is- have all clearances right. And I'm confident they are proven bird dogs themselves? Hopefully something a little more verifiable than "joe hunted with her dads brother for years" ie, hunt test, field trial, or perhaps working as a guides dog?


I don't really need anymore paperwork in my life. If you show me a littler of spinger labs where it's all above board, and both parents have all OFA, CERF, and genetic clearances ill take one.

Actually- however many are left unhomed at 10 weeks ill take and train and give to other disabled vets who want bird dogs. But since I'm not down with throwing more heartbreak at my brothers- ill want to see those health clearances.


So anyway- where is the litter in question? Or is it just a figment of the imagination?

EXACTLY

God we do our best to try and promote purebred dogs and make them the best they can be and people want to breed mutts from them. Im sorry but there is no need to screw around with two very good and capable breeds. Field bred Springers will serve as great upland and waterfowl dogs as will well bred labs. Of all the years I have been breeding Springers and Goldens I have had 1 ooops and the pups were all sold to hunting homes under strict spay/neuter contracts. Did they hunt sure they did they were from FC bloodlines. Dis they do anything better than either of the parent breeds? Not on your life there is no earthly excuse to purposely breed cross bred pups from 2 perfectly good gun dog breeds.

Gotta go with FGD on this one.

At my age, I'd probably rescue one of his "oops" breeding's (providing the tail was docked:) if I were looking for a new gun dog, but I wouldn't go looking for a cross.
That's just me though. Do as you please.

ETA,,, Some of the hound hunters I know do all kinds of crazy cross breeding's. The dissappointments definitely out number the successes but they cull heavily. Something most of us wouldn't be willing to do.

Sorry FieldGrade, tails were not docked, as we dock our spaniels at 2/3 anyway and some are even leaving full tails and as our field bred Goldens have roughly the same tail as a full tail springer I elected to leave them full. Very strange and a classic case of how genes mix the sire is a white and black springer the dam a med gold golden the pups (and yes I'm sure of the sire) are all black with a splash of white on their chest 1 had a snip of white on her nose. Not sure how they will mature but 1 thing I know is they will hunt lol. And you are correct when experimenting with crosses you must be willing to cull heavily.

Forget it then, the deals off.

The two things I can't abide are water in my Burbon and tails on my dogs.

I'll agree with you on the Bourbon if. If our trails ever cross the first rounds on me lol

Done,,,, but don't laugh at my dogs cause none of em have tails.

Well now I know there are 1/4 horses, but 3/4 dogs?????? LOL JK