Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Lost my elk

Had a great time with my son-in-law for the three days he hunted. Saw lots of elk every day while he was with me (3 days). Focus was on helping him get his second one and opening morning he had a 200 yard shot at opening light. He passed because he had a fixed 4x and couldn't determine if the animal was really a cow or had short spikes. I had a 14.5x cranked up and it was definitely a cow. That opportunity was lost but we headed up Agner Mt. and saw lots of elk on the south face headed around to the north side and up to the top.

Agner has three peaks on the area we can hunt and we were on the eastern one. In 2010 my son-in-law made a 363 yard shot from the east peak to the middle one and took his first cow. This time we had cows at about 400 yards and he wasn't comfortable taking the shot. So I did, at a lasered 389 yards. The 7mm RM barked and I heard the familiar "whump" of a good hit. The cow raised its head and the trees exploded with a stampede of elk. The one I shot disappeared into the pines a few yards behind it.

After we crossed the valley we circled around above the pines and immediately saw blood -- not just a few drops here and there but the biggest blood trail I have ever seen, with foot-wide pools of thick, dark blood and what can best be described as ribbons of blood, 2-3 feet long and 4-5 inches wide, also thick with dark blood. We were sure we would find the cow down in the sage within a few yards. Instead the blood trail led us over the top of the ridge, across the next valley and over the crest of the next ridge - over half a mile according to Google Earth and the best I can plot our path.

The blood trail gradually decreased. Each time we thought it had disappeared we would flag a tree or a bush near the last blood, search until we found more, then continue following the trail until we lost it again. Must have put up a dozen flags in the last 300 yards. In the end we lost the trail for good, about 100 yards from an adjoining property that was off-limits. Some elk went straight for it, others headed down hill towards another property boundary not much further away. It was getting late so we opted to follow the elk down, which would take us closer to the truck, hoping to get out before dark, which we did but barely. By then we had walked about 5-6 miles for the day and my right hip was killing me.

We made it back up there the next day and continued the search but never did find any more blood trail or the cow. We found elk but they were on the neighboring property half a mile over the property line. The third day we found elk on the north face of Long Mountain (not to be confused with Long's Peak, which is in Rocky Mt. Nat'l park), We couldn't get within 800 yards in the morning and in the afternoon climbed up to the steep face near the top. To our dismay there were horses tied up in the pines (trespassers) and the elk were gone.

Son-in-law went home Sunday, after hunting 3 days. I continued to hunt the RFW ranch through Monday, last day of its season, without any luck, I saw lots more elk on private property and got a small 5x5 buck, counting brow tines, but 3 tines were broken off - not a trophy for the wall but a freezer-filler. The migration wasn't really started so my Unit 3 cow tag wasn't worth much. A lot of time was spent sitting on hill tops in Unit 3 scanning the distance for elk, reading books and listening to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. The election results made me so happy the disappointment of not getting a cow wasn't that big a deal. Only a couple disappointments, including the CO governor's race. Overall, a true slaughter of the obamacrats.

Still, very disappointed about the cow I lost. This was the first one I've shot that hasn't been put down and recovered. (I did have one jump a fence and get put down by someone else last year.) In retrospect I think I know what happened. I had practiced with clay pigeons and steel plates at the range at 300, 500 and 600 yards. There isn't a good berm to put them on at 400 so I ignored that range, thinking I could interpolate well enough and, based on experience, anticipating any shot would be under 300 yards. (Since 1982 I've only taken 3 shots at longer ranges.) The pines behind the cow were lasered at 399-400 yards before she stepped out into the open and I lasered her at 389. I used a point 1/3 down between the 300 and 500 aim points in the scope and aimed about 1/3 down from the top of the shoulder, sure I wouldn't shoot over and thinking I might hit a bit lower. Later, based on blood found on bushes, I figure I hit exactly at the height at which I had aimed. That would have been good but I didn't allow for any wind coming through the saddle at the top of the valley, ahead and to my left. We were behind some scrub oak and couldn't feel any real wind until we stood up after the shot and took a few steps toward the saddle. Then I got a couple good gusts. I think the wind carried the bullet to my right. Based on a B.C. of .387 for a 160g North Fork SS (estimated based on bullet shape and weight and B.C. for a Grand Slam) and a 10mph crosswind, the bullet would have drifted almost 12.5". That would have meant a high shot toward the back of the lungs or top of the liver. Given the height where we saw blood on the brush (entrance wound) and the darkness of the blood on the ground (from the exit side), I'm convinced that is what happened. My fault and I was pretty depressed about it - not because I didn't get a cow but because I caused one to suffer so horribly. Still pretty disturbed about it and keep playing it over in my mind and thinking about how I will do it differently next time.

Sounds like you had good range data.

An elevation turret would take the guesswork out of the reticle holdoff.

A high BC bullet would cut that wind drift in about half.

I find it fascinating a 160 grain 7mm has a b.c. under .4. Sorry 4 your loss.

Sounds pretty much like partial liver shot. My hunting partner this year, clipped on at 400yards and we tracked it for 3 hours,probably a mile and a half at least .Same thing.Gobs of blood ,but it finally petered out to spots a 1/4"in dia. every 50-75 feet and then nothing.
I had killed my bull on the firsts Sunday, so I was just along as a wrangler/packer. I know the feeling and I wasn't even the shooter

Yup dark blood is liver, elk love life and will live it to the fullest. In my eye the hide shifted hence the los of a blood trail.

Sorry for you loss CH.

Dark blood is liver. When it runs out the critter is dead on its feet. She didn't get much further.

Hit a 32 in Muley through the liver with a TC Hawken in .50 with a TC maxiball ? 385 grain. Dark blood, trail petered out that night. Next day found the buck 300 yds away from last blood on an oak brush ridge where he died headed to water from the end of what started as a good blood trail that petered out to nothing.

Happened a few miles west of Chama.

Dayom, CH, sorry to hear of your loss. As long as we hunt wild, this will happen.

She probably didn't suffer much longer than the blood trail lasted.

If that's any consolation.

Still sucks though.

Well doggone it CH, I know that loss of the cow had to bother you.

Guy

I am glad to hear it's bothering you. Not for the guilt, but because it's an indicator of your ethics.

Sooner or later things don't go just right. If it hasn't happened yet to you, you're turn will come. I've not lost an animal with a rifle, but smacked the shoulder blade of a nice bull with my bow a couple years ago and it still haunts my thoughts.

Sorry you didn't manage to recover the animal..Its a great pity you guys are no allowed to use tracking dogs in situations like this; a good dog has help me out of the mire more than once..

Rumor has it that CO might be looking at permitting this as long as dogs are on leash.

Bad deal!! Sorry you didn't find that old gal..

saddlesore How would a person go about working a bark into something like that, then maintaining on the of season?

No worse gut sinking feeling than losing an animal.

I'd think saving your latest kill's green hide and work the dog on it. I usually bring my hides home unless it is a long pack. Then I hang them in my mule's stalls to get them use to the smell. Those hides carry scent for a long time and just about any scent tracking dog should be able to pick up the task fairly easily.
My problem would be I am usually 200 miles from home and the dog stays home with my wife. Don't knowhow I would keep the dog in camp while I am out hunting and surely could not make a 400 mile round trip to get the dog.

You would save some of the blood from your last kill and freeze it down in small quanties to lay practice blood trails during the off season.

Some folks go as far a keeping (freezing) the feet and lower legs from a kill and use them as part of the trail laying process..The thinking is that a blood trail is too strong so you want the dog to get used to following primarily the foot scent of the wounded animal..

The dog can't ask permission of the landowner to track the animal. That is the hunters responsibility.

I have brought my cattle dogs on hunts and they track well but would never expect them to trail a single animal from the tracks of an entire herd.

I've raised the dog issue in wildlife regulation meetings and the general rule is with a firearm - No. Without firearm OK if obeying other rules and regs.

In practice I do see guys hunting big game with their dogs. I've asked the opinion of CPW officers about that. The answer I get is that it depends on the dog. Carrying a firearm with herding dogs (like mine) or with tracking dog breeds - that will usually bring added questions. The guy with the Jack Russell however tells me they never even mention it to him.

Even landowners that do not permit hunting will almost never want to be the cause of an animal going to waste. I've consulted field offers on this issue also and the response has been please contact us. They say they can help contact the landowner faster and if necessary they can sometimes gain access in situations where an individual may not.

A small minority of hunters I've spoken to claim that they simply answer to a higher authority and would leave their firearm at the fenceline and do what they feel is morally right. They would rather take their chances in court and keep a clear conscience. Personally, I'm not sure I'd have the courage to put myself in that group.

[quote=Alamosa
A small minority of hunters I've spoken to claim that they simply answer to a higher authority and would leave their firearm at the fenceline and do what they feel is morally right. They would rather take their chances in court and keep a clear conscience. Personally, I'm not sure I'd have the courage to put myself in that group. [/quote]

That's for sure, try crossing the fence at Wolf Springs ranch ,south of Westcliff ,CO and see what happens, or one of those hobby ranches , north of Gunnison or the Forbes Trinchera ranch.

The problem with contacting a CPW officer is that the offices are never open on weekends and they won't give out the contact information of the field guys if you do get ahold of them.

Then too by the time that is all over and done with, the meat has spoiled.

A trained and experienced blood trailing dog will do just that..

The Germans (and other Europeans) test their blood trailing dogs as we have bird dog trials. A good dog would be expected to follow a two or three day old trail several miles..They actually test them in the live situation so to sppeak, not just on artificial trails.

The practicalities of things like crossing boundaries and local politics/legalities are of course another matter..

Quote context was edited to omit that I was referencing my own dogs. Really!?

Plenty of tracking hounds will do as described. North American Hunting Retriever Assn. trains and tests on those skills as well beyond Started level.

Sure it would be handy to have a highly specialized dog standing by each season on the rare chance of a bad hit. Guess we just never had that European expertise to guide us in hunting elk.

This was the scene yesterday at Wolf Springs.

I couldn't get them all in the photo. There were elk above on the public land too but the big bull eluded me.

+2 on Trinchera. I've had them run my plates and then leave a note on my windshield to let me know they did just for being parked on a county road near the Trinchera.

True about contacting an officer but I don't think they would encourage one to try to in that situation if they did not intend to try for a good outcome.
I get where that might not be top priority at the moment.
If faced with that circumstance contact State Patrol.
I've always gotten at least a callback from the DOW officer on duty or his supervisor.

Back in 2001 we took a really big bull up in North MuddyCreek drainage during ML season.

Sorry, my mistake, as I missed the original context...

The "German style" of blood trailing is fairly new to the UK, and to be frank, it seems to encompass a lot of elitism and snobbery as to what is considered a good deer dog..

A few years back, I had a Border Terrier I used from time to time on deer.

He was more a pet than a working dog, but he would still follow a trail a few hundred yards into cover, and really that is all I needed..

I doubt he would have passed even the puppy tests the Germans use, but he still managed to be very useful and found several deer that I would probably have other wise lost, so I do get where you are coming from....

I actually think its great when a dog can go to elk camp.
It's probably the highlight of their lives.
I've read about Montana outfitters that use heelers to warn of bears.
A campfire just seems more enjoyable when the dogs are gnawing a hoof or dragging a piece of hide around.
Three elk seasons ago I brought my 12 year old heeler to elk camp because I was sure that it would be her last year due to her health. She made herself valuable guarding the hanging elk meat from the martins and Canada Jays. She is still with us today.
I've noticed that elk are pretty easy for a dog to trail. I think that's because many elk pee a bit as they move. I noticed my dogs could follow an elk trail long after it had been completely obscured by blowing snow.

I was grateful to have mine along on this hunt. A bear had claimed this gutpile by piling leaves around it. The bear was still close by and the dogs were haired-up and barked at his location as we hauled out meat.

Coyote_Hunter: I may have missed this part of the post, but did you invalidate your cow tag once you realized you had lost the elk?

In my opinion that is the ethical thing to do when one loses an animal. After all, an elk hit hard enough to bleed pools and ribbons is no doubt dead, correct?

I would never pass judgement on the shot or your marksmanship, as it sounds as though you had plenty of practice and a good range finder. We have all lost game animals (or will at some point) and it is a painful experience.

Better luck next year!

Dead ain't dead unless you find it dead IMHO.

What folks call pools of blood and such, well lets just say I"ve seen some amazing survivals of game....

So then how many do you hit before you say enough?

my very limited knowledge is from helping to train a drahthaar. the dog is not tracking it is blood trailing. the standards test is about 1 cup blood on a 600 meter(its german) trail with 2 90 degree turns, left for appx 11 hours. the dog will run down this as fast as you can keep up. Rain doesnt effect this as much as you may think. Sounds like bs, and if i hadnt seen it i would have doubted it too.

From over a 100 bowkills and years of experience I can pretty much tell from the way the blood looks and the blood trail starts... and ends...

I"m not going where you think I am or you are insinuating, I'm just saying that a good hunter and tracker can't find an animal, its often not dead. I"ve seen more survive shots they are not supposed to than folks would believe.

OTOH not being able to follow into private land and the animal may well have been just over there dead...

But I won't punch my own tag from a lost animal unless I know in my mind it is dead or going to die. The few in my days that I knew we screwed up and the animal was going to die IMHO, that was a tagged animal for me.

Pretty simple.

Its why I despise the part on a guided hunt that says draw blood and you pay and are done....not that I've done guided hunts. But I totally see why its put into play having guided enough...

And dogs are a huge plus IMHO.

Last deer I trailed for a nephew, I said right away this is a waste of time. Flesh wound only.

Finally called the wife and got the dog. Dog said same thing. Nope.

I wished everyone had a dog. Working on training ours as much more as we can thanks to Ingwe's input this fall.

OK. So then this elk in question could still be suffering ... or not.

The question still left unanswered is How many?

"Dead ain't dead unless you find it dead" is a whole lot different from "... that was a tagged animal for me." Lots of room between those two positions.

IMHO once you pull the trigger you are responsible for that animal, live or dead, period. It should take a while before that is no longer the priority. Few landowners will want a life to go to waste regardless of whether they allow hunting.

I'm OK with a guide stating draw blood and you're done. If he doesn't state that then what does the client expect - a guarantee? If the guide gets the client blood he did his part.

Anyone who knows their rifle and their limitations, who does their level best to find a wounded animal, and who genuinely feels bad for losing one is not the problem. Sometimes they get away, that's the truth. If you have the time and the drive, I say fill that tag if you can.

Conversely the guy that shoots at any range, doesn't even look for blood, doesn't really care if he finds it or not after a short look... he's not gonna quit either. He'll wound them til he gets one.

The point is, the first guy deserves to fill a tag and it's his business if he wants to keep hunting, not yours. Come to think of it, it's not your business either way.

Well said huntinazz! Plus that blue heeler & bull picture is awesome!

CH I feel your pain. If you hunt long enough something like this will happen. Four pages into the thread and no one has stated what I consider the obvious. That shooting 3-500 yards at the range is/can be different from actual hunting conditions. Most rifle ranges have a flat terrain where we can see the wind at different yardages. Some ranges even have flags set up on the range. It is much easier to dope the wind at the rifle range where we have these types of indicators. This changes in an actual hunting condition and as CH stated the wind gust was not noticed until after the shot. Beating up on CH is not my intention. Just stating that sometimes what we think we know, we don't. Spoken by some one who lost an elk a long time ago and still remembers the event.

Coyote_ Hunter: Sorry about that Elk not coming to bag for you.
It happens.
Better luck next Hunt.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Well this sort of thing is going to happen the longer you hunt, sounds like you gave it your best effort in trying to find the cow. The fact that it bothers you speaks well of you, I had a fellow on my property shoot a deer, claimed a big buck and well spent three days looking for it, lost the trail, a tracking dog would have done the trick, but the Nature of Deer hunting in Connecticut and trespass rules made a mess of the whole thing along with his poor shooting, should have never taken the shot in the first place, live and learn and he has not been on my ground since! This was dam near 30 years ago and it still bothers me to this day when I read your account, I remember my own, if it didn't bother me, it would be time to not hunt any more! You did fine in my opinion!

It is hard not to feel for someone who has had misfortune on a hunt.
Who wouldn't?

The obvious white elephant in the room is when that person is someone with thousands of posts about their experience, marksmanship skills, hunting accomplishments, and pages of advice to others. That bragging sets the bar high for themselves. No one else is doing that but them. OK to play cowboy as long as it is not all hat and no cows. Torture elk with novice mistakes and then expect sympathy? No.

Private ranch with limited access in a state hunting program? Most of us would treat that with respect from the start. Can't get in range on a ranch? Flinging a long shot under those circumstances? Even if you were a public land DIY guy faced with the only shot opportunity of the trip are you gonna risk that? Ya gotta think your hunt still ends well if no shot is fired. Not so if it turns into a rodeo. If you really are, for lack of a better word, an 'expert hunter' how do you justify that risk over a cow?

So for whatever reason an accomplished hunter decides this is acceptable risk. Goes bad. Still - this could happen to anyone. The cardinal rule no matter what type of trouble you are in is don't make it worse. There is more to being an experienced hunter than hunting skills. Most do not get to that point without developing some better judgement and skills - for instance, - becoming experts at contacting landowners. Gotta think that nearly any ranch knows its adjacent ranches. If not - the phone number on his burglar alarm system will know to contact the owner for sure and it is often posted at the gate. Locked gate call CSP or county dispatch and get help. That's just a few offhand ideas. With a smartphone there are more possibilities.

Continue to hunt? Some years go by where I don't come across an elk carcass fully in tact that was never found by that hunter. Most years I find one.
What is worse than finding that carcass?
Finding a second carcass nearby. Hope he got the 3rd one.
Possibly even worse still is someone else finding it - someone not on the side of the elk hunter. But just tell them it's nobody else's business. If you are at that stage where you are supposed to be setting an example and showing leadership how is continuing to hunt doing so ... and over a cow?

One could empathize with young man making these mistakes who is doing his best to improve. On the other hand someone who talks themselves up but then devotes more explanation to their radio programming than their elk recovery - not so much.

It took 33 years to lose the first one. I hope never to lose another.

You didn't miss it and no, I didn't invalidate the tag. I had a second cow tag as well, with an overlapping season. After losing the cow I focused on helping my son-in-law fill his tag, which he failed to do. Then I spent time filling my buck tag.

I did hunt the second tag a couple days but mostly it consisted of driving around and exploring Unit 3, an area I'm not very familiar with. The migration hadn't really started, which means elk were very scarce in Unit 3, and I only heard reports of a couple elk being taken there.

Since we are now considering the ethics of the issue - and we obviously won't all agree on this; I'm not even going to throw out my take on it- would you: under similar circumstances and on open public land, punch your tag on this deal and quit hunting even as you trail the animal over the hill only to find another hunter, with oil still in his barrel, standing over 'your' animal with his tag attached?

My dad told me years ago it is best to tell people you didn't see anything. No matter how your hunt really went. If you did not see anything no one holds you accountable for anything. If you must confess see a priest...... it helps the image of hunting immensely.

Alamosa -

Your depiction of what happened doesn't jive with what I experienced.

I do a fair amount of practice at what most people consider long range. My favorite targets are clay pigeons at 500 and 600 yards, second favorite is the steel gongs at those ranges. Do I always hit them? Heck, no, but I rarely miss by much once I have a rifle and load dialed in. A few days before the hunt I had been hitting at 300, 500 and 600 yards with the rifle and load I used on the hunt. The shot at the cow was from a good, solid sitting position, off a tripod. We had walked up to our position without noticing any significant wind, nor had we noticed any while sitting in the brush, which we had been doing for some time. In my opinion the 7mmRM and 160 grain North Fork SS were more than adequate for the task at hand, based on 20+ years of using that rifle and 160 grain bullets for elk. Finally, I had - and took - a lot of time to prepare for the shot. Under the circumstances I did not, and still don't, consider the lasered 389 yard range to be a particularly long shot and certainly wouldn't describe what I did as " flinging a long shot". In fact, except for wind drift, I hit pretty much where I aimed. My error was in not compensating for a wind I didn't know existed.

Could we have gotten closer? Just as likely - or more so - we would have simply spooked the herd as we tried to cross the valley and ended up with nothing.

We could have kept searching after dark but chances of finding the cow that way were slim and none - and in fact when we returned the next day we found no additional blood past the orange flag we had put up to mark the last drop we found the day before. Do the ranch hands know the people on the neighboring ranch? Yup, and from what I've seen hunting the ranch four times now they don't get along at all. Cooperation, from what I've seen, is non-existent. Once an animal is over the fence it is gone, not because the other ranchers want an animal to suffer but because they all have hunters paying to hunt their land and don't want hunters from other ranches on their land disturbing whatever game that may be present.

Nowhere have I asked for nor do I expect any sympathy from anyone. It doesn't matter to me that I didn't' get a cow but I am not happy about causing one to suffer, either.

By the way, I devoted two paragraphs and part of a third to the recovery efforts and one sentence about what I listened to on the radio. Get your facts straight.

Edited to add�
While the title of my original post suggested the result with regard to elk, the post was about more than that and summarized the entire hunt. There were 1110 words in the post, exactly 8 of which dealt with what programs I listened to on the radio. According to my word processor there are 401 words dealing with the cow that we eventually lost. The final paragraph adds another 397 words discussing additional details of my pre-hunt preparation, the shot itself, evidence from the blood trail with regard to where the animal was hit and what I think went wrong. That makes 798 words related to the cow versus 8 devoted to radio programming, a ratio a hair shy of 100-1. Just putting some numbers to your contention I put �more explanation to their radio programming than their elk recovery�. Feel free to criticize me but as I said above, get your facts straight.

With regard to the shot the range was 389 yards with a good, stable sitting position using a tripod � not exactly a bench shoot but about as close as you can come in the field. Moreover I was able to take several minutes discussing the shot with my hunting partner and settling into the shooting position � it was not in any way a hurried shot. In 2013 and 2012 my elk were taken at 487 and 399 yards respectively. Both of those were also cross-valley and both were one shot affairs - so I had some recent experience suggesting a successful outcome was likely. I was the one behind the trigger and the one responsible for making the shoot/no-shoot decision. When I made the shoot decision I did so fully expecting to be breaking out the knives in very short order. Hind sight is 20-20 and you are free to find fault with my decision, but you weren�t there. My confidence level was very high and if a similar situation arises I will likely take the shot again.

Well, I say good on you for posting about your lost cow; not many people do that, and there is a lesson in there.

I hate to admit it, but well said smokepole.
I learned a lot following this post.

So you didn't post for sympathy nor to find how to correct or improve. Clearly no room for that.
Just for readers enjoyment then?

If you've gotta go on forever recounting your practice, bullet, etc. and seeking approval of that then do you really believe in it yourself? Endless talk of distances and calibers and calculations make it clear those elk are being reduced to mere targets. Any actual elk behavior, strategy, observation, connected to this 'hunt' is nowhere to be found. Sometimes you can't approach them. That's why it is not called a harvest.

The aspect of neighboring ranches making money from this public resource and causing elk lives to go waste so that they may do so. Now that is something I certainly AM interested in hearing more about.

I'll say this about bad hits: I've learned that if sign does not look good (wrong-colored hair, paunch, bone, meat, dark blood, etc.), I quietly back out and come back at least 6-8 hours later. The animals will often run less than 100yds, lie down, stiffen up, and bleed out. Have seen several jumped up 10 minutes into following bad-looking sign, never to be seen again. The hardest is when there is no sign at the shot location. Maybe the animal soaked up the bullet in the vitals, maybe not. Those are tough calls to make as to withdrawing or starting to search.

No, I didn�t post it for sympathy. The thought never crossed my mind.

Nor was I seeking approval of my �practice, bullet etc.� If someone wants to make suggestions as to how I might improve, it might help them to have some background as to the details and my preparation, which I provided in brief. If readers enjoy or learn anything from what I wrote, good. If not, no one forces them to read it. Why do you bother? Put me on your ignore list and be blissfully happy.

If you don�t already understand that ranchers make money off landowner tags, trespass fees, hunting right leases, services provided, etc., or that they are protective of such revenue streams, then nothing I can say or do will help you with such understanding.

One other thing � when it comes time to apply pressure to the trigger, the elk ***is*** a target. With the grace of God I will do my part and put the bullet where it will be effective. It is my fault if that doesn�t happen as was the case this year.

You hate to admit it?? I've gotta tell you, I say it well all the time, ain't no big deal.

Alamosa -

Apparently you took the "Lost my elk" title of the thread in ways I never my imagined would be done. Those three words were chosen for simplicity and because they very succinctly provided a wealth of information to potential readers, albeit with a modicum of inference required, to wit:

1. I recently went on an elk hunt.
2. I had an elk tag.
3. I saw elk.
4. A shot opportunity on an elk was achieved.
5. I took the shot.
6. The elk was hit.
7. The elk was not recovered.

That is a lot of information to be conveyed in three short words totaling nine characters. Perhaps you would have chosen a different title considering the original post was a summary of the entire hunt rather than just about the cow. After re-reading my original post I still feel the title summed things up pretty well and was entirely appropriate.

I couldn't care less about the title.

Anyone who brags on themself as much as you do then insists their own train wreck couldn't be helped and plans to do it again?!!?

Beat it.

Coyote Hunter after re-reading your initial post, this is perhaps two years on the trot the wounded elk has run off over the fence. Same fence?

No, different fences, different range, different rifle and load and about a 100 yard shot. The one last year was on public land. It went about 100 yards and laid down in some tall sage. I knew about where it was but not exactly and was studying the area and waiting for it to bleed out when some other hunters came over a rise, walked up on it from a different direction and pushed it out of its bed. It jumped a nearby (40 yards?) fence to private land and it was shot by hunters there.

I've been hunting elk since 1982 and these are the first two I've shot that I haven't recovered. The one this year is the first that wasn't recovered at all.

The shot I took this year was one I�ve made hundreds of times at the range. The �train wreck� could have been avoided with a simple no-shoot decision on my part and I�ve never claimed differently. But yes, based on my preparation at the range and experience with longer shots in the field (I guess the �bragging� you are talking about), in a similar situation I would probably take the shot again.

Nowhere have I ever claimed to be the best marksman around, or even a particularly good one. There are many here at the �fire that are far better than I am or will ever be. Hitting gongs at 600 yards isn�t a big deal � I�ve had my nieces do it after a few shots and a bit of coaching and they had no prior shooting experience. Hitting clay pigeons at that range is a different story but I�ve never claimed to do anything other than hit them often enough to keep me interested. It�s kind of like the intermittent success that is so addictive to gamblers.

Nor have I ever claimed to be a great elk hunter. When I started in 1982 I wasn�t very successful and had average success until the late �90�s when I started focusing on filling the freezer rather than big antlers. Since 2000 I�ve put, 13 elk in the freezer, mostly cows. That�s not a bad record and it�s not bragging, just the facts.

�Beat it�? Really? Seems to me you have anger, reading comprehension and other issues you need to deal with. You read what you want into what I�ve written, then make false claims about it as a justification for your rants. Don�t hold your breath waiting for me to �Beat it�. Or do, I really don�t care.

On and on about bullets and distances and elk are targets.
Still nothing about hunting.

A herd of elk standing around a saddle maybe a little out of range, man that is the kind of rare opportunity I wait years for.
Not because there is an easy kill there, just the opposite.
It is because it provides the opportunity to hunt.

If I can somehow find an approach, solve the terrain puzzle, use the wind, or think a few moves ahead, then that becomes an animal that I've earned. My definition of fair chase. That is beating them at their own game. That is a story worth telling.
If I can't outsmart an elk I don't deserve an elk.

Risking a long shot at first the sighting? I can understand that if it is your first or second elk. If you have traveled across the country and your only chance � I get that. Local, experienced, private ranch, WTF?

Novices chase bulls for antlers, but the real thing that is so enticing and so much fun about hunting bulls is they understand, they know the score, and they are good at it. I'm getting better at it.
That goes to the heart of the game. Reach the stage where it's not much about meat or antlers.
Hunt for the hunt itself.

That encounter with elk on their own terrain, in a place of their choosing, that is where the real hunt begins.
I can't imagine throwing that away on buck fever.
I'd never waste that great opportunity on a long shot.
It's not about what your rifle can do - hunt using your mind.
It's a lot more enjoyable stalking the quarry than trying to clean up a mess.

Don�t bother to try to notify a ranch you�ve hit an elk there? I couldn�t carry that on my conscience. Keep hunting? Not the sort of example I would want to set.

Want to see what kind of experience someone has? Pay attention to what they do and the choices they make - beware what they claim to have done.

Why waste such great stalking and snarking here when you can slather it so much poignantly over on the long range forum?

What, did I miss a good thread over there?

Sure a lot of words for one lost elk.

I have lost two elk in a lot of years of hunting. One I know why. The other I could never figure out. Three of us hunted all day for her. I went back several times to check for crows,etc, circling. Never did find her, but I know she was dead. 50 yard shot, blood coming out both sides.Looked like a good double lunger. She stood there 4-5 minute until bull she had been with came running back past and she took off with him, never to be seen again.

You try to make sure things don't happen, but they do. I felt bad, but sure didn't punch my tag because of it. I think I have only shot two elk past 200 yards, and less than 100 is the norm. Not saying anything bad about those that do, I just don't. Probably I'm not capable of it any more either.

I think this thread needs to be put to bed

Nah, it needs to be spanked and put to bed without dinner.

Nothing I write is intended to please any particular person, including you.

I write about what interests me or I don't write anything at all. In this case the hunt went pretty much as expected right up until we failed to find the cow in short order after finding what started out as - by far - the most massive blood trail I've ever seen. What interested me, and still does, is what went wrong with the shot so I can correct it in the future. Deal with it.



Before I left the house I told my wife and daughter my primary goal was to help my son-in-law get his elk. " Risking a long shot at first the sighting? " No. He was unprepared to taking the shot, said as much and suggested I do so. This was some 3 hours after first sighting, 3 hours of trying to figure a way get closer without spooking the herd and miles from the truck. The range was well within where I practice and we were both in agreement on taking the shot. My thought was to get mine down and to the truck and return my focus on helping my son-in-law. If you want to judge with 20-20 hind sight go right ahead but as I said earlier, you weren't there.



For me it is all about the hunt. The best ones are where everyone has fun and returns home safely with good memories, regardless of whether or not any animals are taken. That said, my family enjoys the meat and if antlers were the only reward I wouldn't bother with the hunt. I generally have two elk tags, one for either sex but two cows this year, and one or two hunting buddies that also have tags they want to fill with limited time to do so. As a result I generally take the first healthy adult that I can get back to the truck with my bad hip - and I do so with no apologies.

Perhaps you missed it - or more likely just chose to ignore it as it doesn't support your rant, no surprise there - but I wrote pretty plainly that I was more distressed about losing a wounded animal and causing it needless suffering than not getting an animal at all.



Watching and waiting 3 hours to take a shot is hardly "throwing it away on buck fever". You do it your way, I'll do it mine.



What elk would that be? Once again you read into what I wrote just what you want to so you can continue your rant, not what was actually written. All we know is that we couldn't find the cow down anywhere near the end of the blood trail and that a fence was fairly close to the west and another was much further to the north. What we didn't know was which way the elk went. For all we know it went south and didn't approach a fence at all. Depending on which way it went the elk could have been on one of two other ranches, more if it made it a little further, or none of them. Just which ranch were we supposed to notify?




You hunt your way, I'll hunt mine. I make no apologies for making the decision to shoot.

How could you wait three hours to shoot and not notice the wind?
Why you shooting such a low b.c. bullet in the wind?
Why do you take such "long" shots at elk but you have a bad hip?
If your primary deal was to get your relative an elk, why you shooting after "three hours"?
I am sorry for your loss, but whoa I think this confessional should have gone to the priest. just braying John

I guess what I am trying to relate I will use the following analogy of a baseball pitcher.

When he/she throws meat over the plate and gets hammered over the wall for a homerun... he/she HAS to get over it RIGHT NOW...end of story. Otherwise he/she will NOT be pitching. As hunters we are dealing with the suffering of animals.....not homeruns.

I would suggest reflection on a hunting failure; if not to learn or help others learn from the mistake; is detrimental to the future success of the person that had the failure.....and most certainly detrimental to hunting as a whole ....especially using such a public domain medium. JOHN

Good questions.

1. B.C of .387.
This is an approximation (guess) based on bullet shape and weight and comparisons with the 160 grain Speer Grand Slam I used successfully in the 7mm RM for 20+ years. Since 1982 when I got started I've only taken 4 shots of 350 yards or longer, including this year. Off the top of my head, I think all the rest have been 300 yards or under. The North Fork SS bullets have proved to be excellent bullets, providing exactly what I want from a hunting bullet, including reliable but controlled expansion with high weight retention over a broad range of impact velocities and excellent accuracy, with animals dropping at the shot or quickly thereafter. Launched at 3028fps and 2.6" high at 100 yards provides a Maximum Point Blank for 6" target of 297 yards with about a calculated 253 yard zero (more numbers that I'm sure will raise Alamosa's blood pressure). For the vast majority of my shooting this means I don't need to make more than a 3" range adjustment, up or down, when choosing my aim point. It also means that inside 300 yards, which is the norm, I often don't make any adjustment at all.

As to the wind, we hadn't detected any significant wind on the way to our position or while we were there - just the expected air movement that rarely stops, maybe 2-3mph. We knew there was some wind along the south facing slopes but it wasn't reaching us at our position, which was more sheltered. We only noticed some gusts when we headed toward the saddle, which also took us to the top edge of the southern slopes.

2. "Long" shots with a bad hip.
Lots of reasons, starting with it was the shot opportunity that was provided and probably the closest I was going to get under the circumstances. Alamosa thinks I should have tried to get closer, which I've done many times when hunting by myself. In this case I had my son-in-law with me and, much as I love him, he doesn't do slow or quiet, let alone both.

Another is that, although I once felt anything over 200 yards was long, that time was years and hundreds of shots at much longer ranges ago. For this particular shot I was shooting a grazing elk broadside from a solid sitting position, off a tripod. It doesn't get much better except off the rock-solid steel benches at the range.

As to the hip, an extra 100-200 yards for a shot just didn't make a difference. Although the truck was about 1-1/2 miles away, the nearest 4x4 track was only about 1/2 a mile away and mostly downhill or level for a relatively easy pack-out. That was a much bigger consideration.

3. Shooting after 3 hours
The opportunity was there, the elk weren't getting any closer and we didn't think we could close the range without spooking them, it was mid-afternoon and chances of finding elk elsewhere on the part of the ranch we were hunting were slim at best, it was already too late to check-in at the other part of the ranch (which was over an hour's drive away) and my son-in-law didn't want to take the shot. One thing I've learned about elk hunting over the years is not to waste a good opportunity. Taking the shot was the logical thing to do.

4. Confessional
This thread was never intended to be that, just an honest summary of the hunt. It still bothers me that the animal was lost but I'm not asking anyone's forgiveness.

Hopefully some people that read this thread will learn something useful to them but one thing is certain - people can't read and learn from words that are never written.

I'd suggest that reflecting on one's failures is healthy and helps one avoid repeating them. And as you said above in your other post, failure equates to an animal suffering so I'd also suggest that the analogy of the pitcher is totally off-base because personally, I would not want to hunt with someone who didn't take time to reflect and ask himself a few hard questions when he wounds and loses an animal as valuable as an elk. But I would want a pitcher on my team who can "shake it off" without another thought.

As far as being detrimental to hunting as a whole, I think it's the opposite; it shows that hunters don't generally take this kind of thing lightly.

At least that's how I see it. And yes, the part about the pitcher being off-base was a pun, intended.

This^^^. Nothing was wasted, coyotes and ravens gotta eat too. It's hunting, not killing and getting.

Bad shots happen. Continuing to hunt just because a second tag is in the pocket is where the ethics get sketchy to me.

Why? I've filled two elk tags more than once.

But....but....what about the BC?!

Can't figure that out. In Colorado, you can buy an "A" tag and a "B". I killed an antlerless elk in muzzle loader season and a 5x5 bull in rifle season. Why is that unethical. Colorado sells them so they must want you to kill them. I can't help it of some can't even find one elk to kill.

Apparently aknome thinks hunters are supposed to quit hunting at all for a while if they lose an animal. I wonder what "mourning period" he considers appropriate?

One must shuffle on knees for three miles uphill in the snow over rocks and gravel to prostrate to a set of elk antlers on an alter. Then beg forgiveness from the secret squirrel residing behind the alter.

It's not a specific period. The length of furlough is related to how long it takes to go back for a faster snow machine and whether or not one needs to save up to acquire it.

(Seriously though, Alaska has some pretty tough laws when it comes to punching tags or harvest tickets. "Attempting to take" qualifies as a tag puncher in many instances. That might be defined as taking a shot, but certainly a knowing hit fits the criteria. A wad of back hair and a few flecks of blood and 'done' - even if it becomes quite evident that nothing lethal or serious transpired.)

Yeah, I know about those laws--but do they mean the hunter can't try to fill other tags?

My "mourning period" would last as long as it took to hop that fence and recover that dead cow. We can shoot five caribou a day up here and I have done that when the freezer was empty. But I have never shot a sixth because the first one got away .

Nope, and I would have absolutely no problem with doing the same. What CH's post points out in very stark clarity is the vastness of the differences that are found in various parts of the country - and which aknome seems not to be cluing in on. (That is my inclination as well, to jump the fence, but I know there are the other realities in other places. And 'don't' means don't.)

It's pretty hard to preach tag use ethics to someone who can take two (or maybe only one) per year while folks in some parts of Alaska, as aknome alluded to, can take over 1800 (caribou) per year.

Just which fence would you hop when there are multiple possibilities leading to different ranches, end of light is rapidly approaching and you've lost the trail and don't know which fence the cow jumped or even if it jumped any of them?

On one hand you're preaching your own form of ethics and suggesting I ignore others, such as respecting the rights of landowners, while willfully and blatantly breaking laws Colorado's big game and trespass laws? Glad You're not my lawyer.

aknome,

Apparently I was wrong. You don't "think" anything about this subject, and your reading comprehension is lacking as well., Where did CH say he was going to try to continue hunting to fill BOTH his elk tags?

He had another elk tag, and was going to continuing hunting to try to fill the other tag. This is the same thing you say you'd do when trying to kill five legal caribou per day: You wouldn't quit because you wounded and lost the first, but you wouldn't shoot five more.

For the record, taking two elk was never in the cards - my goal was always one down and done. Meat that doesn't fit in the two refrigerator-freezers and chest freezer I already have typically goes to Denver Rescue Mission, who requires professionally processing of neat donation. Given that a single elk would have overflowed the freezer space we had available, the best case with a second elk is I would have had to pay processing fees for meat that would all be given away. To keep it I would have had the additional expense of yet another freezer. Neither scenario was attractive.

The purpose of having two tags for different areas and overlapping seasons was to allow me to hunt longer if necessary, not to take two elk.

Let me get this straight - you hunt caribou with five tags in your pocket and would continue to hunt caribou, taking up to four, even if you lost the first one? At the same time you preach it is unethical for someone with two elk tags in their pocket to continue to hunt elk if they lose the first one?

No, you misunderstood me as I misunderstood you. We hunt to eat, and knock on wood, have never lost a big game animal. A normal hunt would be one to three caribou. (Fall ATV hunts are 65 miles off the road system and a week or so in duration) Winter hunts with snow machine are usually 4 to 6 caribou because of easier meat care.
My partner hunts with a bow and has three growing boys, so there are times that the freezers get low. I'm not saying we don't enjoy the sport aspect of it ,but the number one goal is meat.
Our situations are different, and I haven't hunted in the lower 48 in 30 some years.
I apologize if I offended you; I have watched thousands of caribou file by while I made sure a previous caribou was indeed on the ground and dead.
Bye the way, if you look back, I did no preaching. I misunderstood you; hence my comment of sketchy. Beef T bone steaks are $16.00 a pound here, burger $7.00 a pound. Game meat we bring home costs us $6.15 a gallon for gas, and thousands more in equipment to access the country. So we're pretty serious about the game.
Those of us living north of the Yukon river could legally shoot 1825 caribou a year; no tags, just a harvest ticket we fill out each year.

.

aknone -

You called my actions "sketchy", then proceeded to explain how you would have broken the law to do it differently. That's "preaching" in my book, especially when it still isn't certain the elk even jumped a fence, as I think was pretty clear.

But never mind - I'll take your word you didn't mean it that way. It's' not like things I've written have never been taken in ways they weren't meant to be.

By the way, we eat the game meat here, too. It is more expensive than beef but I think better for your health than prime (read "fatty") beef raised on growth hormones and antibiotics.

Some day I'd like to get to AK for a hunt. Don't need 5 caribou but one would be nice.