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My sons (7 and 4) are really, really wanting a dog. We've had dogs in the past, but have been without one for about 2 years now since the last one passed. Mom is relenting and I have negotiated for us to get a breed that hunts and we've narrowed it down to a couple of versatile dog breeds. Our preference is for a puppy and we'll probably wait until spring to get one.
What I'm curious about is if any one has an suggestions as to books/DVDs etc for training versatile dogs. Eventually I'd like to hunt both upland and waterfowl with the dog and may even consider doing some blood trailing. I've searched and found a few books, but just curious if anyone has any specific suggestions. Thanks in advance.
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The only book I have ever purchase on training was richard wolters titled Gun Dog. It is primarily for point and retrieve. But the insight of the early developmental puppy stage of training and discipline can benefit any breed of dog I think.
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What I'm curious about is if any one has an suggestions as to books/DVDs etc for training versatile dogs. Eventually I'd like to hunt both upland and waterfowl with the dog and may even consider doing some blood trailing. I've searched and found a few books, but just curious if anyone has any specific suggestions. Thanks in advance. These books/manuals will provide you with an excellent understanding of how to train a versatile hunting dog: HOW TO HELP GUN DOGS TRAIN THEMSELVES, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF EARLY CONDITIONED LEARNING by Joan Bailey (Swan Valley Press) http://www.swanvalleypress.com/ ARMBRUSTER TRAINING MANUAL by Leonard Armbruster. Available to members of Verein Deutsch-Drahthaar/Group North America. Mr. Armbruster was a German ex-patriot who wrote this manual for the fledgling Group North America. It was/is the mainstay of many novice Drahthaar handlers, and it is an excellent reference for developing your versatile pup through its first year and the breed tests. http://www.vdd-gna.org/documents-forms/ DRAHTHAAR PUPPY MANUAL - Fourth Edition, by Altmoor owners Roger Smith and Nancy Bohs. http://altmoor.com/Drahthaar/index.html THE TRAINING AND CARE OF THE VERSATILE HUNTING DOG by Edward Bailey and Sigbot Winterheld, North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVHDA) http://navhdastore.org/thetrainingandcareoftheversatilehuntingdog.aspx
Last edited by MT_DD_FAN; 11/21/14. Reason: fixed grammar
Pursuit may be, it seems to me, perfect without possession. Robert Kelley Weeks (1840-1876)
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Thanks for the info! I see about getting all of those headed this way!
MT- The DD is on my short list! My wife's preference, based upon looks & reading alone, is for a pudelpointer, but I'm leaning DD. I'm thinking either way would be sufficient if the pup comes from good stock.
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Google "NAVHDA", the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association. The training book available from them covers training of versatile breeds to include trailing. Plus, the name Sigbot Winterheld sounds cool!
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NAVHDA is great.
Google them up, find a local chapter, go to a spring test, and watch some dogs run. You can see some different breeds, find out about breeders and lines, and make some good contacts for training.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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You question on which training program depends to some degree in what dog breed you decide on. If you are gong to include "waterfowl" hunting you may decide on a Lab which also can double as a great upland dog. The labs I have had much preferred upland hunting to duck blind hunting.
What ever dog breed you decide on... RESEARCH the dogs pedigree, buy a dog that is trainable. All my dogs cam from field trial or American Kennel Club AKC hunt test bloodlines.
Just make sure what ever breed you decide on you get more dog than your paying for judged by the pedigree. It'd much harder to train stupid.
Doc
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The only book I have ever purchase on training was richard wolters titled Gun Dog. It is primarily for point and retrieve. But the insight of the early developmental puppy stage of training and discipline can benefit any breed of dog I think. The book that helped me the most quite a few years ago was "Water Dog" by Wolters (same author). Easy to read, easy to understand with lots of pictures. He also had a book out called Family Dog and Im sure thats good too. Just depends on what your looking for.
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The only book I have ever purchase on training was richard wolters titled Gun Dog. It is primarily for point and retrieve. But the insight of the early developmental puppy stage of training and discipline can benefit any breed of dog I think. The book that helped me the most quite a few years ago was "Water Dog" by Wolters (same author). Easy to read, easy to understand with lots of pictures. He also had a book out called Family Dog and Im sure thats good too. Just depends on what your looking for. Richard Wolters never trained a dog, he was a good writer and wrote on Training methods used on his own dogs. Jack Jagoda trained Richard's Labs. Jack told me himself with Richard standing right next to me at a dog event we all attended. Sorry it's true. Doc
Last edited by Doctor_Encore; 12/01/14.
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If Lab's are your choice look up "Total Retrieve Training" by Mike Lardy. You have to train the trainer before you can train the dog.
I was a struggling trainer and attended two of Mike Seminar's and adopted his program. Even if you only want a hunting dog his program will get you a finished dog you hunting partners will want to hunt with and be blind with you and...your Dog.
Doc
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The only book I have ever purchase on training was richard wolters titled Gun Dog. It is primarily for point and retrieve. But the insight of the early developmental puppy stage of training and discipline can benefit any breed of dog I think. The book that helped me the most quite a few years ago was "Water Dog" by Wolters (same author). Easy to read, easy to understand with lots of pictures. He also had a book out called Family Dog and Im sure thats good too. Just depends on what your looking for. Richard Wolters never trained a dog, he was a good writer and wrote on Training methods used on his own dogs. Jack Jagoda trained Richard's Labs. Jack told me himself with Richard standing right next to me at a dog event we all attended. Sorry it's true. Doc I'd like to hear more about that. If this is true, it breaks my heart. Water Dog is THE BEST training guide out there
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Doesnt much matter, if what he wrote was how the trainer trained, it matters only the method, not who used/uses em... IMHO.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Thanks for the additional info and suggestions! Right after Christmas I plan on calling a few kennels and seeing what they are planning for litters in '15.
Mooner- I think I may do that! There's a NAVDHA chapter not too far from me.
Doc- The wife has ruled out labs due mostly to shedding.
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The only book I have ever purchase on training was richard wolters titled Gun Dog. It is primarily for point and retrieve. But the insight of the early developmental puppy stage of training and discipline can benefit any breed of dog I think. The book that helped me the most quite a few years ago was "Water Dog" by Wolters (same author). Easy to read, easy to understand with lots of pictures. He also had a book out called Family Dog and Im sure thats good too. Just depends on what your looking for. Richard Wolters never trained a dog, he was a good writer and wrote on Training methods used on his own dogs. Jack Jagoda trained Richard's Labs. Jack told me himself with Richard standing right next to me at a dog event we all attended. Sorry it's true. Doc I'd like to hear more about that. If this is true, it breaks my heart. Water Dog is THE BEST training guide out there After reading about this, I did some research. It seems it may be true. When I say Water Dog is the best out there, it means from my limited experience. I have trained 4 dogs from start to finish with the methods in Water Dog. I couldn't be happier. Could they have been Field Champions using Wolter's methods? I think they would have been competitive if I took the massive amount of time necessary to complete the jouney. I do know that my hunting buddies are blown away when I can sit my dog on a whistle at 200 yards and handle her into a retrieve.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Thanks for the additional info and suggestions! Right after Christmas I plan on calling a few kennels and seeing what they are planning for litters in '15.
Mooner- I think I may do that! There's a NAVDHA chapter not too far from me.
Doc- The wife has ruled out labs due mostly to shedding. Pointer, I understand the shedding issue, yet all dogs will do more than that inside your house and your truck...just sayin. I bought a 4 hole custom built stainless dog trailer to hold all the training gear, guns, ammo etc. Best dog gear I ever bought. Doc
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I used Wolters methods. My not be the best but they worked on my setters. Hasbeen
hasbeen (Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Thanks for the additional info and suggestions! Right after Christmas I plan on calling a few kennels and seeing what they are planning for litters in '15.
Mooner- I think I may do that! There's a NAVDHA chapter not too far from me.
Doc- The wife has ruled out labs due mostly to shedding. Pointer, I understand the shedding issue, yet all dogs will do more than that inside your house and your truck...just sayin. I bought a 4 hole custom built stainless dog trailer to hold all the training gear, guns, ammo etc. Best dog gear I ever bought. Doc I totally get what your saying and agree. She just has a problem with the hair. Since we are getting a pup, I'm sure it'll chew up more stuff to cost us more money than any amount of hair would. That said, gotta keep momma happy or I'll end up with a designer breed that doesn't do anything but eat and poop...
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Keep the dog in a crate when not supervised.
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Doesnt much matter, if what he wrote was how the trainer trained, it matters only the method, not who used/uses em... IMHO. That's the bottom line. The suggestions in the section on how to choose the specific temperament of pup from a litter was spot on from my own experiences. Even at that young of an age, their personality traits have been pretty well established.
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Thanks for the additional info and suggestions! Right after Christmas I plan on calling a few kennels and seeing what they are planning for litters in '15.
Mooner- I think I may do that! There's a NAVDHA chapter not too far from me.
Doc- The wife has ruled out labs due mostly to shedding. Pointer, I understand the shedding issue, yet all dogs will do more than that inside your house and your truck...just sayin. I bought a 4 hole custom built stainless dog trailer to hold all the training gear, guns, ammo etc. Best dog gear I ever bought. Doc I totally get what your saying and agree. She just has a problem with the hair. Since we are getting a pup, I'm sure it'll chew up more stuff to cost us more money than any amount of hair would. That said, gotta keep momma happy or I'll end up with a designer breed that doesn't do anything but eat and poop... Pointer, Get the dog breed you want your wife will love it anyway regardless of the house "clean up's that will have to be done over time. The best solution is to take you wife to pick out a pup and let her choose the dog. Your wife's maternal instinct will come out and she will choose the right dog for you both... that she can "puppy love". This works every time. Greg
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HOW TO HELP GUN DOGS TRAIN THEMSELVES, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF EARLY CONDITIONED LEARNING by Joan Bailey and THE TRAINING AND CARE OF THE VERSATILE HUNTING DOG by Edward Bailey and Sigbot Winterheld, North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVHDA) These two will help tremendously. Use the crate diligently. This is the method we use and it flat works. No scratched doors. http://coveyrun.net/pages/gsp_owners_guide/potty_training.htmlBird insticts will come with proper breeding, manners will ONLY come with proper training.
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Doc- I'm pretty sure if I got her in a room or puppies of any breed we'd come one with one! That's a great suggestion! The good news, the breed she wants (pudelpointer) and the one I want (deutsch drathaar) are very similar. Either way, I just want a bird dog to work and chase feathers with. The dog will be crated. We did that with our last and it was a much better experience.
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HOW TO HELP GUN DOGS TRAIN THEMSELVES, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF EARLY CONDITIONED LEARNING by Joan Bailey and THE TRAINING AND CARE OF THE VERSATILE HUNTING DOG by Edward Bailey and Sigbot Winterheld, North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVHDA) These two will help tremendously. Use the crate diligently. This is the method we use and it flat works. No scratched doors. http://coveyrun.net/pages/gsp_owners_guide/potty_training.htmlBird insticts will come with proper breeding, manners will ONLY come with proper training. For most sporting dogs, their first 2 years of life equals 25 years in human years so there eagerness to be trained the first two years is time that should never be wasted. Most sporting breeds require 20 repetitions to grasp a training concept and most trainers "STOP" at that point thinking the training concept is now learned....NOT. This is the point where you take the understanding of the task being trained with repetition to a LEARNED response by the dog. The negative side is if the wrong concept is taught it takes a minimum of 40 or more repetitions to "un-train"...YOUR training MISTAKE. Doc
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Thanks for the additional info and suggestions! Right after Christmas I plan on calling a few kennels and seeing what they are planning for litters in '15.
Mooner- I think I may do that! There's a NAVDHA chapter not too far from me.
Doc- The wife has ruled out labs due mostly to shedding. Pointer, I understand the shedding issue, yet all dogs will do more than that inside your house and your truck...just sayin. I bought a 4 hole custom built stainless dog trailer to hold all the training gear, guns, ammo etc. Best dog gear I ever bought. Doc I totally get what your saying and agree. She just has a problem with the hair. Since we are getting a pup, I'm sure it'll chew up more stuff to cost us more money than any amount of hair would. That said, gotta keep momma happy or I'll end up with a designer breed that doesn't do anything but eat and poop... Pointer, Get the dog breed you want your wife will love it anyway regardless of the house "clean up's that will have to be done over time. The best solution is to take you wife to pick out a pup and let her choose the dog. Your wife's maternal instinct will come out and she will choose the right dog for you both... that she can "puppy love". This works every time. Greg Spot on. We went from this. To THIS in what seems like no time at all. It's MY belief that more time should be spent training the OWNER. NOT the dog.
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When you start looking for a pup, don't rule out the Wachtelhund. I have three of my own. I know of a litter that is due around Christmas.
Goofy aka graybird on other forums
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The Wachtelhund looks like a very neat breed!! I hadn't heard of them before. Only downside for me is I'm leaning heavily towards a pointing breed. That's not set in stone and thanks for the suggestion. I'll let you know if I need the contact info.
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This may come off as an AH, but I really give 0 Fs anymore. Don't hang out on the Fire anymore.......but either breed you listed is much more than a simple Craigslist ad. There is a ton of commitment that come with either dog. Testing and travel is not mandatory, but STRONGLY encouraged. And both dogs, if they are worth a half cup of piss, can be hard to handle AT TIMES. They are Machines. The Germans have the systems in place and breeding restrictions to create MACHINES. Every dog in the US has been bred down and dumbed down into a PET. Any true "working dog" or Euro dog bred for a task and not to be a pet is a MACHINE. Look at any Malinios, Rott, even the Earth Dogs like the Dachs are vastly different. The potential for killing all the cats in the county is High. Chicken coops...High. Skunks, Possums, Pets.....High. It's what they do. Running and hunting every chance the door opens? High. I've read your stuff for many years and do not think you're an AH. Just think hard about what you really NEED and WANT in the dog. And how much MACHINE can you deal with. My dog is simply AWESOME. Not because he's mine. Simply because he is. So are the rest of them. PM me if you have questions. May take a while for me to check in . But I asked a question on 7WSM brass sources, so I will look back a few times in the near future.
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Please God, give me some good tags this year....
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Additionally, you could expect a wait list. YOU will most likely be interviewed. I've heard of people being turned down and refused dogs. Do NOT expect to choose your dog. High probability it would be chosen for you.
Just a few of many things that I've experienced that really blew me back.....as it's not the Typical way American's do things or how we expect things to play out. Should be obvious I hold the breed(s) pretty close to my heart. A simple look at the Laborador Retriever paints a clear picture of why I do not want the Drahthaar to become any more popular than it already is. Keeping them quiet and under the radar so to speak is what will keep them tough, high drive, and well bred. You simply cannot buy one and breed it as a Back Yard breeder because "I want a pup outta Ol'Joe...he was such a nice dog". The parameters to make it to Breed Status is staggering.
Last edited by Jesse Jaymes; 12/19/14.
Please God, give me some good tags this year....
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Jesse- Thanks for the pics and perspective! Though I've never really lived/trained one I've been around my pard's and dad's Drathaars quite a bit hunting and just having them in camp. As you say, when coming from good stock they are machines! Funny that you mention cats. The two I've been around the most have not problem corning and making cats into multiple pieces. That said, one thing that has really impressed me about their 3 dogs is the difference between them when in the field and around home/camp. They have a switch and seem like totally different dogs in the two different settings. This would be a new adventure for me, but lots of hand wringing and thought we used to come to this conclusion. That said, what I think and what is reality may or may not match. But, I'm thinking that either of the two breeds could be a fit for me. The plan is to start calling kennels/breeders in an ever widening circle after the first of the year and see about getting on some puppy lists. I do not foresee being able to get a dog until the summer at the earliest judging from what you posted, my pards told me (he's having to wait for a second litter as they didn't have enough in the most recent litter for him to get one), and reading of various breeders websites. I fully anticipate being interviewed and hope that I am no to proud to admit that these breeds may not be for me after going through that process. PS- Thanks for not thinking I'm an asshat! Tyler
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Though an old thread, just thought I'd give it a bump. I've tracked down and gotten 3 of the training books suggested. Thank you guys for those references! I've started to employ the methods on my kids...and it's working! Secondly, I've gotten on two lists for breeders that are close enough I can drive an pick up/out the dog. Both are part of and active with the Pudelpointer Breeders Alliance. One just had a breeding, but won't take deposits until the ultrasound results are back. Though my preference if for a female, it appears there may not be any available from this litter as many are spoken for by other breeders in the alliance. It's a very well respected pairing and the 3rd breeding for these two. Though it'll make housebreaking a bit more troublesome, they are due to be whelped at Xmas time. Can't think of a better gift for two boys! Second breeder won't be breeding until spring, so if this one doesn't work out, I'm first on his list. Getting pretty excited to start this adventure!
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