Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting New 9.3mm LBT mold

My new 9.3mm 250 gr LFN mold was sitting on my front porch when I got home. What's your favorite breaking method for his aluminum molds?

Alan

A ten second dunk in up to temp alloy, a few casts until the heat evens out.

No mould prep or smoke......ever.

If bullets don't just fall with a tap or less, its a temp issue.

Awesome.

Now, I just need to file the living crap out of my RCBS mold handles to get the 4 cavity mould to fit.

Alan

GSSP, READ AND FOLLOW all directions that came w/the mold otherwise the warranty IS void. I have about 10 of them and the only thing I ever did was hose em good w/Brakcleen let dry and follow the directions then hose them (when cold) w/Amsoil MP. Best easiest casting molds made. Got an Elk w/mine in 260 gr LFN .338. Muddy

Thanks Muddy.

Cast some up this morning. Beautiful? And I don't typically cast pretty rifle boolits. 252-254 gr as cast.



255-257 gr with Gator Checks.



Is this seated too deep? Trying to cover up the middle lube groove. As I understand it, one does not want any lead exposed.



They all measure .371" before sizing and .367" after sizing with a .366" size die. When tested for hardness with the LBT BHN Hardness Tester, within an 1-2 hrs of casting, they come up 12-13 BHN. I'm sure they will hardened up a bit more which Veral says is hard enough to not shatter when hitting bear/moose/elk bone.

I use the RCBS Luber/Sizer. The boolit is long enough that I have to slip "bullet ejection plate" out of the way of the "threaded rod" so I can get the boolit in and out of the sizer die mouth. Is this typical?

Alan

Alan, seated a scratch too deep just need to have the front of the check seal the inside of the case neck. As far as sizing goes you need to readjust the ejection rod/plate. Muddy

Got it. What about lube in the middle and front lube groove....ok to expose the lube to the elements?

Alan

Yep, I use LBT Blue and have had no problems. Generally keep rounds in a box except those I'm actually hunting with and if they get gunk in the grooves I switch em out. You can always dig out the old and smear some new in. Muddy

Look great!

The I'd seat out a skosh further, if possible.

I tool use LBT Blue. Just need to get my Echols Legend stock back, install it and start my winter project.

Thanks,

Alan

seat where it shoots, loads and ejects loaded rounds nicely.

I'd not worry about the GC below the neck.

I shoot several loads that have the GC below the neck, it won't hurt anything.

I prefer to have no lube exposed out of the case, as it just collects dust and dirt and stuff.

try various amounts of lube on the groves, you may find less lube is more accurate.

The new mold from Veral Smith. 250 gr LFN, casts to 252-254 gr with WW. Unsized = .371". With Gator Checks and BuffaloArms Lyman sizer cut to .366", I'm getting .3675" to .368". Took a throating reamer to my chamber and am still having an issue getting loaded dummy round to chamber fully. I don't want to take too much out of the throat. I'm thinking that the .3675" to .368" diameter is having an issue getting past the leade to the throat. I am able to fully chamber the cartridge but I'm seeing marks on the bullet a full .19" of the bearing surface. Wondering if I buy a Lyman .363" size die and invert the bullet to size down to the first lube groove.

Opinions?

Alan

I'd look at getting a push through sizer i.e. lee style in .367" and running the bullets trhough there to see if that helps. The thing with lyman sizers is they don't always size the nose of the bullet sufficiently.

That is worth a try. Take a mic to the base/gas check and then the front driving band. Bet the band is fatter...because the sizing die is tapered and the tightest diameter will be at the bottom of the die.

Size nose first, then the base.

I took the bottom guts off one LAM and use flat and cupped punches to size nose first bullets lubed and checked in a larger die in another LAM used just for lubing.

One should also note the bullet will spring back somewhat after sizing.

Exactly. You don't want to size more than needed. Find the tightest diameter that will chamber. That's the benefit of an LBT bullet. It fills the throat.

Select a powder that takes up at least 50% of case volume. You can use dacron in between. Having a lube groove exposed in the above fashion, even two, won't really have an effect. You'll be beating the boys who fool with their fast burning pistol powders and are very careful to make sure that a lube groove is not exposed. Yeah, they need to worry about it. They also need to worry about a double charge.

Those are pretty! I was going to suggest what Hawk1 said about sizing nose-first first. Hope you get the kinks ironed out quickly and get them shooting! Keep us updated!

This is a custom die by Buffalo Arms where they use the Lyman die as the donor die.

I did try and size a few nose first but the results were the same; .3675" to .368". I did order a Lyman, .363" from Buffalo Arms, to size just the front driving band.

Today, I took 10 loaded rounds where the bullet was seated so the front lube groove was exposed. This puts the base about 1/2 down the shoulder, exposing the sides, just above the GC. To chamber the round I had to smartly run the bolt home to get the round to chamber. Unseated one, pulled the bullet, fortunately throwing most of the 52 gr charge of Varget, clear of the action. Glad I had the Sinclair Reloading short brass rods set with me to get the bullet out of the throat.

Gave 2263 fps with a 170 ES from a 24" #3 PacNor. Zero leading after 9 rounds. Accuracy sucked. I shot this mostly to zero the scope @ 50 yds.

Alan

So, you got rid of the front driving band due to chambering issues. You had the right idea in getting a .0005" smaller die. Will you now just size the front band slightly? LBT bullets work great if you don't change the design.

Yes, invert the bullet and size just the front driving band with the Lyman .373" size die. I'm doing this at Veral's suggestion. This should give enough clearance to fit into the leade, not the throat where the lands start.

Alan

The Lyman .363" sizer die arrived today. Sure enough, inverting the bullet and being careful to size only the front driving band, I was able to seat the bullet where the GC was at the base of the neck/shoulder junction. The dummy cartridge was then seated fully and extracted perfectly. Can't wait for this weekend to try some more.

Alan

What is the measurement of the nose after its sized in the .363?

If possible, I'd get an incremental die diameter (.364 or .365?) that stayed above groove diameter after spring back, but still allowed easy chambering without partial sizing the nose in another die.

Also, when sizing nose first, back off the liftout plug to the point that its barely threaded so the entire bullet enters the die to get the smallest size on the nose; it also makes a more concentric bullet, since pressure imparted isn't on an unsupported bullet.

.364" after sizing the nose. I use one of LBT's nose punches for the 45 cal WFN bullets I cast.

That last paragraph....say what?

Alan

There is an assembly at the base of your luber/sizer that adjusts how deep the bullet enters the die.
If this is not backed out all the way, so the entire bullet fully enters the die, sizing nose first won't reduce the nose diameter, especially with your .366 die.

This LAMII has the liftout mechanism and the depth is set with the nuts on the long rods on the sides and a threaded plug at the bottom of the press.
I lube only in this press with slightly oversized dies or with bullets that barely size.

This LAMI has the mechanism removed (cut off) to operate like a Star sizer, but with conventional dies. If a bullet does not travel its entire length through the very bottom of the die, it will not be sized at the point that the die is the smallest diameter (at the very bottom) because they are generally cut with a taper.


I'd also ask Veral why he's now recommending a bore-ride nose...

Since these dies are sizing about .001 larger after spring back, a .365 die might get you the .3665-.3670 range which will be larger than groove, yet still apparently closer to the diameter your throating reamer is making.

I just don't think you are getting to the maximum travel sizing in your .366 die.

Yes, it is, all the way through the downstroke, with the "threaded rod" backed down as far as it will go when trying to size down the nose. It should go so far that the base/gas check enters the top of the die.

Just be sure the "ejection plate" isn't so loose on the upstroke it slips off of the rod (liftout plug).

The nutz on the two rods can be adjusted to do this.

Its best to seat the gas checks and lube before changing your adjustments to get the extra travel needed when nose sizing.

What i've done so far is seat the gas check, lube, and size with the .366" sizer to .3675" to .368". I then swap out sizer die to the .363" and swap out nose punches to the large 45 cal punch so it won't affect the GC then invert the bullet and size down to just the 1st lube grove, sizing the nose to .364". This is on bullets that have been sitting for several weeks, having had a chance to harden up to 15 BHN.

In the next few weeks, I'll perform the same procedure on freshly cast bullets with a BHN of 12, to see if the final dimension are more or less.

Alan

Okay, just something to look at when sizing long rifle bullets: how deep they go in the die will directly effect the diameter, especially with LBT designs, because the area you are having trouble with on the bullet is cut even larger than .371 by Veral and the smallest diameter of the sizing die is at the very bottom.

Nose first, with a GC.


Knurled lock and liftout plug set before sizing.


How deep it will travel into the die. Note the liftout plug(black) and the die pin, when the nose first bullet fully enters the die.


Side view:

I shot a few today.

From a 24" #3 PacNor barrel, my 9.3x62 hit 2349 fps with zero leading but horrible accuracy (19 MOA) using 61 gr IMR 4350 fps. 58 gr of IMR 4350 gave 2226 fps and 2.75 MOA.

With Varget my fastest was 2249 fps with 53 gr; 7 MOA. Best was 48 gr giving 1922 fps and 1.25 MOA.

Alan

Whoops. This post did not belong here.

Varget will reduce to that level fine, but your issue is still possibly with fit and hardness.

Make sure the bullet just barely fits (trying to size JUST the nose can/ does bend the bullet and I don't agree with Veral) and make it as hard as possible. A BHN of 25+ will not be out of line.

If you need to get a .365 die to get a .3665-.367 diameter bullet to fit, do it and size the whole bullet, NOT just the nose and make sure the bullet is sized even.

I've sized rifle bullets longer than yours down .005 (375gr. .418 bullet to fit .412 throat, .411 groove) with minute of angle accuracy and have ran LBT's in ten bottleneck chamberings, most at jacketed speeds, some needed Dacron to maintain accuract, but I've never seen any shoot worse than 3 inches at a hundred yards! Ouch!

I really hope you can get rewarded for going through all of this.

It's a work in progress and i'm still working. Recoil is quite pleasant at 2k. At 2300+ it's reminding me it's a 9.3x62!

Alan

I ended up taking the PTG throating reamer to it again, since with the top edge of the GC at the neck/shoulder junction, I was jamming the bullets pretty hard. Now I get just a touch of land marks where the ogive starts and I can un chamber a live round easily. Still trying Varget, IMR 4350 and 4831. Hit 2400+ with 4831 and zero leading. Still playing with 15 BHN air cooled and 30 BHN water quenched. With the throat lengthened a bit, I can also avoid sizing the nose to .364". Entire bullet stays at .368".

Alan

That's the way they are supposed to work, with minimal trouble.

I've had great luck with heat treating and seated to a slight crush on the lands, like you describe.

I just hate it that you've had to open up the throat so much because the as cast diameter is .373.

Turns out the pilot bushing is .254......012" under nominal bore. PTG is sending me a set of 6 bushings to get a MUCH closer fit. Let me clean up the throat a bit....not lengthen it, just make it "rounder", more true and we'll see where we are.

Alan

I had a similar issue with my 450-400 using 320gr WFN and 400gr LFN. The throat was a bit short for those bullets seated to the crimp groove, they had to be "breech seated" a bit. Got a 408 sizer from Buffalo and ran that up to the front band, sized the bands to 411. with the springback, the nose came back to about 4095, worked well. Been using wheel weights and water dropping them. Ran the 320's to 2050 with Blue lube to match the factory 400gr load. Haven't bothered to run the 400's up past 1880 yet. I like shooting the 320's better, easier on the constitution with a #1. I definitely like both of those boolits though.

Todays results AFTER going over the throat with the proper pilot bushing attached to the throating reamer. Seems I can't go much over 2100 with either Varget, or IMR 4350 and 4831. All shot with air cooled, 15 BHN, sized to .368". All 3-shot groups shot at 50 yds.

48 gr Varget, 1987 fps = 7/8"
49 gr Varget, 2084 fps = 2"
58 gr IMR 4350, 2114 = 1.5" I'd settle for this one if push comes to shove.
57 gr IMR 4831, 2091 = 2"

As soon as I go a bit faster, the groups just come apart; 4-9".

I had a few pieces of brass to shoot one group with 30 BHN bullets and a upper charge of 60 gr IMR 4831.

2277 fps = 4.75" group.

Veral says if a hard, 30 BHN bullet hits hard bone it will be brittle enough to loose it's nose but the remainder should punch through. I want to try and find a mid, BHN bullet; harder than 15 and softer than 30. Maybe I can find a happy medium that will group around 2200-2300 fps.

Alan

Here it is two months later and with numerous trips to the range along with the same number of emails, back and forth with Veral Smith, I found my load.

47 (2200 fps), 48 (2210) and 49 (2258) gr of Varget. CCI 200 though I might still test some other primers to see if I can reduce ES and SD.

Water quenched WW that are sized within 1-3 hours of dropping in water. Seems the BHN is not so hard if sized soon after quenched. They're 25-30 BHN days later but if sized/lubed within a few hours they are only in the 12-15 range. I crimp on 9.3mm Gator Checks when sizing. A custom Buffalo Arms .365" Lyman sizer die is used and the bullets come out .367" to .3675". Seems that at .367" the bullets expand the neck enough that chambering is tight; custom reamer I guess. I called Buffalo Arms yesterday and ordered a .364" sizer die to, hopefully, come out with a .366" bullet and hopefully make chambering of a loaded round a bit easier.

After charging the cases, I use some Ballistic Products #47 Buffer...... http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Mix-47-Buffer-jar_500cc/productinfo/MIX47/ ......and fill the empty space to about 1/2 up the neck. Without the buffer, I get about 2050 fps. With buffer I get 2200. I also tried no crimp vs a slight crimp using the Redding seater die to apply the crimp. Accuracy was better with the crimp and with the buffer.

I tested these this past Saturday at 50 yds and had the following groups. Take out the 1 called flyer and each group, at 100 yds, for 5-shots, would be .8 moa.



Next up is a gallon milk jug test a various ranges to determine my max effective range.

One other issue which could be HUGE. All this time, i've been single loading while testing. I attempted to run several magazine full tests on Saturday and the rifle does not like to feed this bullet from the mag well. With 250 Accubonds, it's nearly perfect except the 1st of 5 rounds out of the mag does NOT want to come out of the mag and chamber. If I seat the LBT's .1" deeper things are better but not enough to trust to save my life against a gnarly grizz.

Alan

What if you change it to the first of four rounds in the mag?

Mathman,

If you're talking about loading down just 4 of the cast loads, it didn't matter. It didn't like having 4, 3 or 2 down. It only liked 1 in the mag.

Good question though.

Alan

I follow now. I had read "the first of five" as there were five in place at the time.

Did a little test Veral suggested. His email was as follows...

"Bullet hardness and remaining velocity will determine maximum range. Set gallon water filled plastic jugs out at increasing ranges and if the impact makes them explode they will kill. If you just get a small hole and small split in the jug you have exceeded the effective range for best killing, but if the shot is well placed that bullet will kill well out to as far as you can hit. A few years ago a fellow in OR took an elk at 350 yards with a 32 cal LFN started at only 1450 fps. Hit through the lungs, the large cow only walked a few steps and collapsed. Not a good choice for that range, but it definitely says, don't quit shooting as long as you might hit if you are trying to take a wounded piece of game down."

So I tried the test at 25 yds for reference then went out to 50 and 110 yds because that's all the time I had before having to head home.

25 yds. 2262 fps [img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...%202262%20fps%2025%20yds_zpsvtuc8yny.mp4[/img]

50 yds. 2250 fps
[img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...%202250%20fps%2050%20yds_zpscgzecbnw.mp4[/img]

110 yds. 2218 fps
[img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...202218%20fps%20110%20yds_zpsomf5d2cr.mp4[/img]

Can't wait to stretch it out further.

Alan

love the videos
BTW I don,t think you'll have any issue with lethality ,your accuracy is obviously very good,and the bullets heavy and large enough too be very effective, one of the guys I hunt with shoots a 45/70 loaded with 350 cast launched at only 1600fps and hes killed 3 elk in the last 12 years, out at 200-230 yards very effectively with a single hit

I asked Veral about the lethality back when I thought my accuracy node was going to be sub 2k fps. The addition of the buffer improved the accuracy and sped things up a bit. Hope to get out next Saturday, early and shoot some jugs further out.

My biggest problem now is figuring out how to handle the feeding issue. If it comes down to it I can load 2-3 Accubonds down with a 3rd or 4th on top. Maybe even carry one in the chamber with with the firing pin eased down or the safety on; not my preferred mode.

Alan

I didn't get a video but I tested another milk jug at 185 yds and results were the same.