Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Smaller dispersion at longer range than at close range.

It'd be annoying to keep getting hit with the scope. I'm sure that would start to make my shots disperse after just a few.

Then explain why I saw it when shooting irons only...

Mirage could be, but you can read the mirage and what its doing through a spotting scope between shots...

No human could run a mile in less than four minutes until Roger Bannister did it. Scientists had proved it physically impossible, and proclaimed it loudly.

Certainly, I think Litz will get to the bottom of this question, because he is committed to the process of learning new things. Until then, I am not going to dismiss out of hand what others are reporting, and what I have seen to some extent. Ignorance is not a defensible position for claims of fact.

Unless one passed those groups through screens at both 100 and 200 yds, he is still comparing two independent events.

Yes, one may do .5 at 100 and then subsequently do a .5 at 200. The question is, will that first .5 at 100 also generate a .5 at 200. I think not.

Sir,

I'm very interested in having you visit my lab in Michigan to demonstrate this rifle on my shoot thru target. capturing the same group at two ranges is the only way to know for sure if the bullets actually fly that way, or if something else (like optics) explains your observations.

Please email me at: bryan.litzappliedballisticsllc.com if you're interested in a paid trip to my facility.

Thank you,
-Bryan

Please email me: bryan.litzappliedballisticsllc.com if you're interested in a paid trip to my lab in Michigan to demonstrate this effect on my shoot thru target.

Thank you,
-Bryan

I am just back from Kansas, where I checked zero in an M-70 BOSS 30'06. This rifle will shoot a composite 100 and 200 yard group of about one and a half inches. (4.5" high at 100 and about the same at 200 for about a 285 yard zero)

The 300 yard target showed an inch and a half low for a three shot group of 1 1/8" about .4MOA.

Nothing special WW brass Varget and 150 TSX. Same gun and BOSS setting shoots similar size groups with 220 HDYs and too much RE22. Scope is a beat up VXIIc. Only two loads tried in the gun. I am so ashamed.

Are you interested in a paid trip to the ballistics lab to demonstrate this rifle? I'll be happy to pay your way in exchange for witnessing a working example of group convergence, which is what I understand you're seeing (1.5" groups at 100 and 200, and 1 1/8" groups at 300)

Let me know if you're able to visit and we can start making arrangements.

bryan.litzappliedballisticsllc.com

Thank you,
-Bryan

Bryan

I"m really sorry you didn't do this 10 years ago! Or that I had not shot out those uppers on the AR that would do it.

I've not seen it with anything much other than happenstance, excepting the 90 jlks with 6.5 twist. I did run them in 7 twists and they would lightly keyhole, so I'm still saying not totally stabilized and "asleep" until they get further on out there.

I do hope that you get some responses from some of the folks here though, it sure seems like you have access if they are willing, to see whats going on.

Thanks, Jeff

I have two 30'06 rifles that do this. Very generous offer there Bryan... especially as airfare from Alaska is a bit salty. That said it occurred to me that maybe just maybe a shooter is a bit stressed at long range and through nature better able to perform (shoot as it were). I shoot trap a bit better in a league than in a practice session, and I shoot silly better demonstrating a drill before students...that is good stress!
So parallax...sure and or just a little better ability due to stress factors ???

No one will take the test, because it would prove them wrong

I guess you have to be NEGATIVE to know something.

Uncas,

I am pretty sure Bryan will go for airfare from Alaska, if you're willing to bring your rifles along.

PROVE me wrong
SHOW, not "tell"

this happens to me a lot.

yes, I know the problem is me. I don't see anyway possible for dispersion to 'recover'.

Aim small--miss small.

"I don't see anyway possible for dispersion to 'recover'."

The way I understood the concept of a bullet going to sleep was that the bullets path was also a spiral rotating around the bore centerline. I guess the thought is that it spirals further from the centerline at first and then as it gets further out the bullet spirals closer to the bores centerline. So according to this theory a group could be smaller at a further range than a closer one.

That would have nothing to do with group size, even if it were possible, which it's probably not

There's no logical reason to think a bullet travels in a "corkscrew" manner

If it's true, it should be easy to prove since POI would change at different distances

Now all that's needed is for one of the people making the claims to take the man up on his offer to prove the theory

I too have been led to believe that a spiral is what happens. I have witnessed increasing accuracy with boattail projectiles in both 303 and 308 cartridges. I was told that this can happen (with boattails in particular) because the gas escaping at the muzzle as the bullet leaves the barrel will push/pull the base of the projectile and ever so slightly cause the bullet to cant (a boattail design presents a long surface for the escaping gas to act upon, and maybe the effect is more like lift generated like airflow over a wing). The rapid spin rate then corrects the cant gyroscopically but results in the spiral (a force acting in another plane) that luckily dissapears.

I never did fully understand this but accepted the "gist of it". It's a bit like holding the axle of a spinning bicycle wheel out in front of you and then trying to turn it, say, to the left, and then having the whole wheel twist is another direction (eg the top of the wheel will try and go to the right which will lift your left hand and push down your right hand - a reaction 90 degrees to that of what you tried to do with the wheel in the first place).