Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Is NRA HighPower Dying? If So, Why?

I am told there were only 208 registered shooters for the match rifle category this year at Camp Perry.

Not enough young people interested in HP to replace the old farts that leave for what ever reason.

F-Class is growing by leaps and bounds.

There is the vision thing for irons and I'd wager the economy and reloading components and their cost are a consideration for a serious HP shooter. A family man has to prioritize sometimes.

I hate to say it but IMHO when something becomes easier to master, IE scopes and f class, even though the target is harder, the newest generations are all about the easiest way to do it.

That and the economy cost of shooting are probably 2 factors.

Regardless we loved doing it for years, but no longer do so as we can't afford to both shoot and hunt, for many reasons.

Yes, I agree, HP is too hard for most people. When they come to a F-Class match, they see they can buy their way into only losing by 10 points or so, but when they come to an NRA HP match and lose by 100+ points and see they can't just buy their way into a psychologically satisfying score, they run away.

For the most part too, people hate the truth that is paper.

It really doesn't have much to do with money. If you can't afford a service rifle and .223 ammo, you can't afford any other shooting sport either, except maybe Field Air Rifle. HP is arguably the cheapest center fire shooting sport out there.

I haven't seen that happen. On average the Midrange FRT winning score will be in the low 590s. Entery level, even with a custom built rifle is usualy in the 550 range.

I may be off a few points one way or the other, but the point remains. The spreads aren't anything like Across the Course.

The F-Class equipment race has gotten ridiculous at my club, with guys buying March scopes and having $4,000+ rifles built so they can eek out another point or two. I hope someone with a Rem 700 & a Tasco comes along and cleans their clocks, that may be the only way to save it for working men.

The same "arms" race is seen in HP. Didn`t make poor shooters any better IMHO.
To move up in any classification took work, and dedication.
"F" class removes most work. Belly matches are much less stressful, one dosen`t need to practice hours on end dry-firing to up off-hand scores, where the Masters and Hi-masters are made.
So the short of it, "F" class is simpler.
BTB, one area range is going to try a "G" class, shooting from benches, for thoese that can`t shoot prone. Maybe this`ll get out more shooters.

I believe much of what is being said about Highpower doesn't apply to Service Rifle. CMP week at Camp Perry is still filled to capacity. And the AR has been the great equalizer in the Service Rifle game. A match winning AR can be had for somewhere around a grand. And don't think that one off the rack hasn't won it all at Perry already.

That's what I love about Svc rifle - no arms race.

But I see that ending as scopes and $400 railed float tubes work their way into it.

Remember the NRA has F-class as a subdiscipline of HP.

What is any seasoned HP shooter fighting? I think most would say the wind, this is true for both sling and F-class shooters. Keep in mind that your wind calls have to be twice as good in F-class as it does for sling shooters.

Yes there are differences in the subdisciplines but is that bad? F-class seems to be a great thing for HP shooting as it is getting younger blood into HP, so maybe 20 years from now when there are fewer sling shooters F class shooters with be numerous enough to keep KD ranges open.

I think the decline of competition shooting is a combination of all the above notes.
The new generation would rather stay indoors and play video games than go to a KD range. Plus, most folks look for the easy way to do something....real shooting is hard to master.
How many give up or never try NRA Bullseye pistol matches?
Try 50 yards-one hand- 1911 .45 hardball....most folks today would quit after the first match. They shoot HP because rifles are easier to shoot than pistols. Just my thinking.

Wind calls do have to be better. But try reading the wind while looking through iron sights... vs looking through optics all the time. At least with optics you have a much better chance of seeing the change... with irons... you can look through the spotter and at the flags but at some point you have to focus on thr front sight, and press the trigger, only to look back at conditions and say oh F....... and thats not F class... LOL.

I shot Service Rifle last season and had a great time. Had too many commitments to shoot this season so far, but want to get back into it. Definitely have to do research and travel to find matches, even in an area like Texas with as many gun people as there are here. Regarding equipment, I bought a White Oak Precision upper with a Krieger barrel and was shocked how many of those 7- and 8-ring hits that I thought were me went away as compared to my RRA NM upper. Even in Service Rifle, equipment makes a difference.

Would love to figure out how to get more people participating in this.

We were able, in TX to shoot almost every weekend, and sometimes twice a weekend. All within 3 hour or so or less drive.

Figured that was pretty good.

you had a bad RRA or a bad load if you were getting 7/8s and simply buying a WOP changed them to Xs.

RRA should be capable of winning about every match its shot in, with the right ammo. The sights would worry me more than anything in any non WOP rifle. Trigger notwithstanding.

There's been National Matches won with chrome-lined Colts. Service Rifle ain't about the bow.

DesertMuleDeer, I agree with Jeff. Was that barrel worn out? I had one shoot a lot of Xs and a decent score at 600 one time, only to let go in 300 Rapids and throw shots all over the target, including into the 6 ring. That was about 4,000 rounds on that particular barrel.

SS, die instantly from what I've seen. I never gave it any thought that the tube could have been shot out....

Who? When? That's a new one for me.

A Junior won one of the matches about 10 years ago with a chrome-lined Colt.

Chris

Nez shot a chrome lined Colt for a time.... lets just say the barrel was more than capable, with Nez loading for it, to win...

But like me, he sucked at highpower.. and just couldn't quite pull it all together all the time to be the nations best...

When I first started shooting rifle I used an M1 Garand right out of the box except for blackening the sights.
Then I was lucky enough to find an M1A
Supermatch which got me an expert card.
I wanted to make Distinguished but never did. Then the AR-15 clones came on the scene about the same time my eyesight
got worse.
I thought about shooting match rifle but realized that they were all one of a kind custom made rifles. I could not purchase a new factory made target rifle.
whelennut

I thought they used the spotting scope set up to look at with their non-dominant eye to watch the wind. I was told by a HP power shooter that he could watch the wind using the spotting scope with his left eye and be behind the rifle so that he did not need to move his head to see the sights with his right eye and shoot. How about any-any matches.

Maybe we should just accept that sports change, as technology changes. What is allowed in service rifle competitions when most of the M$'s going out for use in the service are sporting an optic like an ACOG or similar?

Isn't grand that there are options so others can find a discipline that they like or is suitable to their physical situation. I can shoot F-class some but could never shoot sling due to some severe back and neck issues. Every year it seems we get another F-class shooter who was a sling shooter but due to eyes, back or whatever finds that they need to shoot F-class or stop shooting. The comment about wind came from one of those sling shooter convert, I never would have made the connection.

Have a good day,
wade

May be my load in that I threw together 77s with RL15 and TAC without much workup but my WOPs are definitely way more accurate, even from position shooting, than my RRAs. Maybe I am not looking hard enough, but matches in NT, where I live, and panhandle, where I frequent, seem leaner. Panhandle people seem to be traveling to Capitan, NM and maybe a few other areas for matches. Up here closest seem to be Terrel (if there still doing it), that town east of Tyler where the Jack Black movie was set and Pearland. Never shot your way nor spent much time there but much of my extended family is from High Hill near you so maybe I should get down there if there are matches.

Of course I did not know where you lived.

We are more central TX. Going from Waco, to Beaumont, to Carthage, to Lake Jackson, to San Antonio and all in between. Austin has matches, Temple, Ft Hood no longer, Pearland still does I think, as does Bayou Rifles and Lake Jackson. But its been 10 years since I fired a round in competition.

Obviously afew or more than 2 hour drives.

Loved shooting in Capitan! Just loved that range for some
reason. Likely the smell and sight of the mountains.

Obviously the WOP is going to be a better gun, but like I said, I've lost matches to folks with RRA, with nothing done to them other than re crown and tune the RRA trigger up.

High Hill is such a large town. LOL. ITs about the south end of our fire response area. I am north of town and we never ran south much even to this day, unless going to the coast. Know a few folks from that area though. Drove through last Saturday on way to and from coast on a quick duck hunt/redfish trip.

I hate shooting in a sling, so I've never got serious about highpower. If you could shoot with a combat style sandbag rest, as is actually done in combat, I might have gotten more interested. F-class looks interesting.

Highpower is not combat related so much... service rifle more so.

Slings are easy to use and much better than any field expedient rest short of an actually rest setup like on benches.

One reason I think highpower is dying though, is folks don't want to put the effort forth. Dont' want to sweat in a jacket, don't want to get rained. Don't want to learn how to use irons, adjust sights, use a sling, a glove etc....

Its the way teh US has become, more so instant gratification.

And in a way, its things moving "forward". While I don't agree that not learning the hard way is moving forward, it sure seems like the way the world is going.

My nephew, 25, and in good shape, and I did all I could to mentor him, is in teh fire dept as a volunteer with us.

We are always to put SCBA on on a fire call, regardless, and he is young enough he always asks, as does about anyone his age, as they get in, should we put it on? You heard the page.... put it on. Its really easy to take off... and if we get there and its needed, it could cost someone their life if you don't have it on ready to fight when you open the door....

Just my take on things.

BTW another great thing about irons.... unbelievable how easy a scope is if you take a few years to master irons....

Oven mitts, straight jackets and Helen Keller targets. What's not to love...

I kinda like it in a way. Makes what one accomplishes in the game a bit more meaningful, in the way that not everyone has the will to even try it...

I'm still proud of the fact that I won my first leg on Distinguished with a NM M1 in the Marine Corps Far Eastern Division Matches in Okinawa in 1965. I didn't make it to the Maine Corps Matches or the Interservice Matches or Camp Perry that year, since I, like the rest of the 3rd MarDiv, was in Vietnam.

In my first leg match, in 1963, it was M1's only, no mats allowed, but by the time I went Distinguished in 1983, the National Match M14 and the M1A were in use and the stocks were definitely plumper than the issue service stocks.

I had to quit high power a few years ago after almost 50 years of uninterrupted participation. I can't take the heat, and my arthritis won't allow me to get into position, but the memories remain. We real high power shooters always looked down on the small bore competitors with their covered firing points, wind flags and grotesque single purpose rifles. Cleaning a target at 300 rapid or 600 slow fire is an accomplishment to be truly proud of.

Then there's the camaraderie of the team matches, the "rattle battle", and the pride of accomplishing something as a group, not just as an individual. F Class will never replace that.

But if I was still shooting, IE wanted to, and could no longer shoot position, I'd sure grab an F Class like JJ Conway did. I think I've almost more respect for JJ than almost any other shooter out there and like you, I know a few of the "bigger" names in the game.

I did like cleaning 300 and 600. For some reason 200 rapid was harder for me to clean than 300 or 600 often. Just never could get a great position there. And never did clean 200 standing. Just was not in the cards I guess, though when wife and I quit shooting, I was getting closer to the ability.... 99-97 in strings at times...

Yep, shooting in the rain...I remember when I first started and was amazed that they only stopped matches to save targets, not competitors...

Yep, thats no squat.... I bet you were there a few times with the 2x4 carrier boards snapped off in the wind, had to use extra ties to hold em in, I got to the point that i carried 3M adhesive spray in my pack, and extra baling twine for those bad days... that pail of glue sometimes really sucked...

Been looking for my 3 inch spotter from a 600 yard string that has 17 holes in it... really hope I can find that... wasn't important at the time, but for some reason sure would like to find it now....

Rain... where we learned goretex sucked. Where we found that huts flooded, don't leave ANYTHING on the floor. Especially the mini fridge... LOL.

I think High Power is slowing down for multiple reasons.

1) Attitude. Moreover that of the older participants. I've many clients in my shop mention this. Turns people off FAST.

2) Technology. Let's face it rifles,OPTICS and ammunition have come a long way in a relatively short time. A bit of "laziness" involved as well here. For most optics are "easier" and in general bear more fruit for less time involved.

3) Dynamics. High power is as square range and square COF as it gets. IMO, the newer generation competitive crowd thrives on "added dynamics" stress, short par times, themed stages, complex shooting scenarios.

Imo, this is why 3 Gun, and precision rifle competition such as the the Precision Rifle Series are growing leaps and bounds.

I shot from 92 through 2000. Went to Perry every year but one. It was strange watching people drive in from all over the country on their big pilgrimage, while it was a 90 minute drive for us and we went home on off days (Whistler).

going home on Whistler... yeah, bla bla... 26 hour drive one way for us average.

Shot from 91 to 2004 as I recall. Sure were some different years... the tornado year was nuts too...

RE teh older participants attitude, unless its changed in the last 10 years since we quit, teh top folks were always more than willing to help you out and let you learn.
They didn't even care if you ended up outshooting them.

I doubt thats seen in many other sports..... but the advice was liberal and free.

I even recall Alonda Roy watching my wife be so upset shooting 69s at 600 in a really bad wind match, that the next day Alonda and Arch walked up and handed us an M1A and federal match ammo. Wife was much happier, I learned she could handle a bigger gun easily, and it cost me about 2000 bucks that day... but she had a Mc stocked M1A in a few months... and neither Arch or Alonda would even accept money for the ammo. Alonda did very well at mentoring me when I started, as she did with Carolyn.

And I've sat and had fun chats, questions answered and such by Tubb, Tompkins, Gallagher, etc.... over the years.

I remember when I first started, I had an alibi at 300 in the NTI. There were only a couple of us on the alibi relay and I mentioned to my scorer, a Marine Team Gunny, that I was anxious because the whole line would be watching me. He immediately calmed me by saying "no they won't, they'll just be happy to get a few extra minutes to get their equipment back to the 600yd line".

yep, that was no chit too... very little time compared to home ranges... alwyas lucky if you got your brass back too.

I had a double alibi NTI once.... so first round was maybe a few of us.

My first round was before the rules change... 10 rounds fired, all in 10 ring actually.. can't find but 9... ok... next round, first alibi, same thing, 10 rounds fired all in 10 ring....9 found... next round, second alibi ONLY one on the line, Viale.... fired 10... its like they were waiting... as a lowly expert, I shot a 99, with a 9... fug... well it was still a good score but took 30 shots to get there. I loved doing that with the M1A. Took a lot of work for me to figure out how to shoot rapids decent with the recoil involved.

The recoil of the M1A didn't bother me in sitting, but I sometimes had problems with my right elbow moving in prone. The AR solved all that.

Bro, you’re the LAST person that should say you sucked at HP. You were one of the best and quit at your peak, all it would have taken was a little more “luck” at the critical time.

I'm really proud that I got to 'cut the heart' out of it when I did!

LOL. I"d like to think you are right. And likely so, mental and physical game was starting to jive a bit.

Regardless of accomplishments, it sure was fun, and meeting and shooting with folks of your caliber, made it some of the best years of our lives!!! Carolyn and I really enjoyed it!

Keep your head low and watch your six as always!

Jeff

It's been dying in my area. I think all that's mentioned plus the emergence of other shooting games like precision rifle etc.

I backed off a few years ago when components were scarce and travel was expensive.

For fun I would much rather shoot a novelty match like Garand or bolt action service rifle these days.

The youngsters much prefer tactical or scoped equipment games.

Want to try your true personal ability play the smallbore and HP silhoutte game. It's dieing too , people want to think they are the stud , blow and go than come shoot a match and see they really suck a** and never show back up.

We had a lot of fun with smallbore silhouette. Sure helped our offhand shooting too. Even though it was scoped.

never had a close HP range though for the metal. Sure would have liked to try thta too.

I hate to say it but the nation as a whole sure seems so much into instant gratification, that any work on their part seems to be a non issue, IE they don't want to do it so if they can't win the first match with no practice, they give up.

They all want to "run and gun" in 3 gun matches and pretend that they're in Delta. They don't know what accuracy is.

Run and gun is a little more practical than putting on a funny jacket and oven mitt to put ten shots downrange on a stationary target...

"Practical" for what? HP teaches marksmanship.

We used 3 gun type stuff as cross training

Instead of being elitist snobs like I used to be when doing years of archery only hunting, we became aware that every thing has its place.

The run and gun stuff really really helped our highpower as did other cross training.

And if you think 3 gunners are not accurate, you've another thing coming. Its all relative anyway.

So does 3 gun, IPSC, sniper matches, etc...

Same as Sporting Clays or Five Stand has done for shotgunners.

Highpower, PPC or Bullseye doesn't have the draw they once had.

I'd actually think that the ability to shoot tiny groups would come from learning BR, which we never tried.

Then field expedient accuracy could start with various highpower including field, f class, the "sniper" type courses etc...

I know some damn fine shots involved in 3 gun, one of which is a former world record holder in bench rest. So I would never buy the notion they are not accurate.

I think Bullseye pistol helped my HP the most from a trigger control standpoint. I was always involved in many disciplines at the same time including 3d archery, skeet, trap, sporting clays along with hp/service rifle and bullseye pistol.

I have been toying with trying some precision rifle matches because there are now a few places within reasonable distance that are putting on matches.

I was saying that we needed to adopt benchrest reloading practices back when F-Class switched to the half-MOA targets. I'm not saying Highpower shooters don't pay attention to their ammo, the smaller ring size on the FC targets placed a greater demand on precision shooting.

I think in benchrest (shortrange) we generally have a better windflag system than found in Highpower. We pay more attention to the flags when shooting than mirage, trying not to shoot in a boil. Highpower shooters have a better feel for reading mirage... sometimes the flags lie

Yep, I've seen the flags flying in three different directions and only had the mirage to trust.

Somewhere there is the photo on Viale, 2 flags blowing opposite, middle one straight up...

I don't know that highpower needed BR reloading, but as the distance got further I got pickier on my ammo...

But F class cuts it all in half target wise, and lets face it, you just don't shoot the much better because you have a scope and a rest. YOu do some, but not twice as good, so something had to give... reloading techiques and building more accurate rifles had to come along.

Bullseye was great for trigger control. I really wished I had shot a 4th leg pistol match to maybe finish my pistol dist badge, but thats life. Maybe one day I'll go back and try to finish it.

RE mirage, I learned as I got to be a better shooter, that everyone can be about the same on low wind days... watching the mirage and such... and learned that, at least in service rifle, shooting in a boil was no big deal, in fact a BR shooter taught me that, and the fact I could clean a target at 600 really quick if I could break all my shots in boils if it was that kind of day.

But I also learned flags can be different lengths, materials etc... and that flags lie, BUT if you look at the overall wind and terrain you can maybe figure which flags to look at.

Bottom line was you also had to learn to wtach grass, bugs, birds, trees, leaves etc.... nature, a LOT because you could not rely on mirage at all, you could not rely on flags and so you more or less had to figure out all the other signs to rely on, incluidng your neighbor cussing....

ITs worked out very well in the game fields too since then... as you know no flags out there, but you need to read what wind does as it goes by valleys, tree lines, hills etc.... and since mirage flat lines out at low wind speeds, if the wind is enough to worry about often the only thing I can use mirage to check for is search direction for a boil to know "true" wind direction at least.

It never hurt to be on top of things and shoot fairly fast too... check it all, shoot, glance at indicators again and adjust sights if needed before you see shot location, then again if you need to tweak from shot location vs call and fire again.

Jeff in shortrange BR score shooting we're trying to hit a 1/16" dot (@100 yards), five bulls, one shot per bull. Tough to get your POA in a boil. In group shooting IF everything is perfect (gun returns to the exact POA for each of five shots) you can hammer em down quickly, IF the boil holds. In group shooting the group doesn't have to be in a specific spot on the target as long as it's in the upper section on the paper.

Yes, as noted the sports are all different and we have a gracious enough target in highpower to be able to ding as many Xs downrange as long as the boil holds, and hten the time to wait for it to come back.

If you have direction to the mirage, then you have to correct for both the wind its indicating, and the optical illusion its creating, 2 totally seperate issues that you deal with at the same time.

I can certainly see that trying to hit a specifit dot in a boil could be interesting, not only are you dealing with a horizonal error of wind and mirage, but now a vertical factor of the mirage effect, not to mention possibly the effect of a head or tail wind to compound it even more.

Not HP, but my father used to shoot smallbore back when his Winchester 52 match rifle was the hot set up. He did reasonably well, somewhere around here there's a box with a couple of dozen medals he picked up along the way.

In a lot of years of hunting out of many deer camps no one ever had to go out and help him find a deer he hit badly. Coincidence?

Never ran into a rude Service rifle shooters. They are serious folks and I'm learning why with each shoot I attend. It's serious work. I showed up at my first match with my green boxes of ammo ... problem it was ammo for my 22-250! I had three different shooters offer me ammo to get through the shoot and not one of them would take a nickel!! (my 223 ammo is now in a different colored green boxes and labeled!!)
I have folks here giving advice and assistance to get me started. My is used ... I don't even know its twist rate, but to date doesn't like 77 grain boolits. No keyholes, just poor groups. It does love 69 SMK from all distributors.

So I guess what I'm saying many folks confuse serious with rude. Ask and they will help. It's a good community IMHO. Same goes with the F-Class folks. I was starting in that until I discovered XTC styled matches (service rifle, Sporting rifle and Garand matches). I like the variety of the different positions (although I seem to suck at aweful hand).