Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders New Remington 700 ultimate muzzleloader.... Smokeless? ??

Just curious if anyone has shot smokeless in the new remington 700 ultimate.? I feel like remington built this for smokeless but scared to advertise it as a smokeless gun for liability reasons. The guy here in Va that builds custom smokless muzzleloaders uses the same ignition setup as the new ultimate, and remington says it's good for 200 grains of BP, so should hold a small smokeless charge? ??

I feel like you may be about to start a new career in pencil sales.

If they're worried about liability, you should be worried about your ass.

they are not rated for smokeless! BP substitutes only!

What is it with people wanting to make pipe bombs out of guns lately?

I've read this over a few times and have thought about it quite a bit.

I keep coming back to the same answer.

I like me more than to try that. YMMV.

I think it's partly a desire to save money, mixed in with a desire to be edgy and "get away with something".

There's also a feeling by a lot of folks that the limits companies place on their products are the due to liability concerns, not technical realities. It's the same mentality that regards maximum loads in manuals as starting points. Of course, when physics rears its ugly head, and removes a few body parts, these folks are the first ones to lawyer-up and sue somebody.

Or it could just be dumbshititis.

Lol, so none of you guys ever shot or had a savage ml10 smokeless bp???
The benefits of using smokeless in a BP is obvious.... when you are going to deer camp for weeks at a time and using pyrodex your bore gets nasty and rusty, fouled rifling. Using smokeless eliminated all of that and keeps the boreclean. I know lots of guys sshooting smokeless in Thompson center encores and never had a issue. I have a savage 10ml and can't distinguish a good difference between it and the new ultimate 700ml.

So care for it and clean it? Being in camp is no excuse to be lazy.

Have had 4 different Savage MLs, currently have 2. An original 10ML module gun and an MLII. I use smokeless in them because they were designed to do so. I know the benefits and limitations. Yes many people shoot smokeless in Encores, usually in custom barrels made from .45-70 cartridge barrels modified to use Savage MLII breech plugs. If you know "lots of guys shooting smokeless" in factory .50 cal Encores, chances are that soon one will be nick named "Stumpy". If you can't distinguish the difference in the breech design between the Savage ML and the new Remington, you haven't looked too hard.

What guy? How about his first name? What's his business name and website?

I wish the guys on here that want to blow themselves up would just do it and stop asking for permission.

You guys are great, all this good information is exactly what I was looking for.

deathrowmuzzleloadersyahoo.com

Some people know more than the engineers that designed the stuff. Wish I was that smart.

What information are you looking for? That we're idiots? Why don't you go to Dougs Message Boards smokeless forum and post the same question. Those guys know more about smokeless front stuffers than anyone. They'll collectively tell you the same thing they've told others that have posed the same question. NO.

This is the muzzleloader you're referring to: http://www.ashlandguninnovations.com/#!muzzleloaders/c60z
A custom, hand fitted $3000 rifle. He works up one load for you and provides pre-measured charges with it. Kinda funny, here's something on his FAQ page.

Q- Can i try other smokeless powders in my muzzleloaders
​
Absolutely NOT. Experimenting with anything aside from the recommended powder and charge risks damaging or destroying your muzzleloader and risk of injury or death.

Oh, now I understand! It must be okay because he saw it on the INTERNET!

Lots of smart people there!

I thought some of you might be up on the latest technology and may be able to share your experience and knowledge. But looks like a bunch of old skool side lock hunters that think it should still be illegal to have a scope on a BP. Thanks for stating the obvious. I'm just going to order a new remington and use a string to fire the first 10 shots. And keep my fingers crossed

I just hope you keep all of your fingers.

Not me at all. A year ago I dropped a grand on a new Knight and scope. I also have a couple of sidelocks. I believe in using what you want, within the law.

What you are proposing, using smokeless in a gun not designed for it, is foolhardy and reckless and if carried through, will likely get you hurt. You asked about it and didn't like the answers. You are on your own.

Cross those fingers while you've got 'em.

By the way, getting away with ten shots, or twenty, doesn't prove anything. Lots of old black powder Winchesters have been destroyed by the use of smokeless powder. They didn't blow up right away, but eventually the strain wore away at them until they finally blew. If you've ever seen the havoc that escaping high-pressure gas can cause, you'd rethink your plan.

Been using a Savage SML for years. They were designed for smokeless. Hint.

The barrel and breech plug steel is as strong and hard as it gets for a stainless steel, so I do not believe it is the strength of those components that would be in question. I believe the weak link is in the Johnston ignition system itself. The parent Johnston plug is clearly built stout enough to run a big load of 777 in his Johnston rifle, and the new Remington version of the plug appears stout enough to run big loads of BH209, but neither are stout enough according to Remington engineers to seal and hold up to the greater pressures of smokeless. The new Remington would need someone to invent a drop-in breech plug with a stronger and more positive seal to safely hold up to smokeless.

Charlie's smokeless rifle is a complete different animal built ground up around a specific load. Though his route for a 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless muzzleloader is to use a custom ignition system using a primed cartridge casing, vs the many other 45 smokeless builders using various custom 209 module ignition systems, this does not translate into either the Remington parent Johnston plug or the newer Remington version of the Johnston plug being suitable for the increased pressure. It would be a very bad idea with great risks of property damage, injury and death. Charlie's ignition system is designed to shoot his smokeless load, but the Johnston plug is designed to only shoot pellets, and the new Remington "Johnston" plug was improved in design to also handle Blackhorn 209. Neither was designed nor intended for smokeless loads such as Charlie's.

Quite a few have already been converted to 45 smokeless with a change in barrel, breech plug and ignition system; and some are entertaining the thought and are experimenting with designing a drop-in smokeless breech plug/ignition system to maintain the factory 50 caliber sabot barrel. But none of the later, to my knowledge, have hit the market as of yet.

If wanting to use the factory barrel, magnum 150 grain volume loads of BH209 have been proofed, to date, by Western Powders. When they are completed with testing, they will publish Remington Ultimate Only load data, which is expected to show safe the BH209 loads currently being used by Bob Parker, which makes the new Remington a 400 yard gun without smokeless. So if your goal is for a clean powder to use, and you have no need for these smokeless 700-yard game animal kills hyped on the internet, then BH209 in the new Remington is a viable option. Otherwise, choose a smokeless ignition system, and have the rifle converted to 45 smokeless. There are a number of guys having good track records making these conversions.

Best

Also injury to others unlucky enough to be nearby......

You want a smokeless gun buy a Savage smokeless muzzleloader .This is a muzzleloader 4 -50gr pellets or 180 gr loose powder NOT SMOKELESS

dead man walking...............................

I had one in my hand a week ago. I thought they were an either or powder gun like the Savage. Barrel clearly says black powder or substitutes only. I have 2 stainless old model 700s that might get converted. Otherwise I will stick with the 54 flinter.

people are shooting smokeless in lots of guns that are not designed for it. i watched a guy sight in(from a distance)a cva wolf with smokeless powder back before muzzleloader season. he said he'd been shooting smokeless for 3 years now.i also know a few guys that are shooting smokeless in regular encore ml barrels. with blackhorn shooting as clean as it does i really don't see the need to shoot smokeless.

I wonder where these brave souls get their load data?

My first impulse is to say from their "nether regions", but that would be rude, I suppose.

One item I noticed while perusing the Remington site is that the new ML is a firearm, not a ML. I suppose the BATF didn't care for the setup, much like they put the skids on the original Savage.

I wonder if they'll ever catch up with the custom makers of similar designs?

Here in Michigan we have shotgun-only zones in populated areas. Muzzleloaders are included in the shotgun zones, but not the smokeless Savage and I suspect the new Remington 200 grain models. Bullet speeds for those fall into Centerfire Firearms category and are restricted to rifle zones-only.

If Michigan's Department of Natural Resources catches smokeless in a shotgun zone, the fine is huge and loss of hunting priviledges for three years usually are added-on.

Michigan doesn't regulate which muzzleloader you can use, just the powder you load it with. No mention of ballistics in the regs. The Savage ML and the Remington Ultimate are legal as long as they're loaded with BP or a sub. During firearms deer season in the two northern zones, muzzleloaders are allowed with no mention of powder type.
As far as I know, Michigan doesn't have a "stupidity law" to regulate people loading smokeless in BP/sub only guns....or ice fishing on a detached slab of ice with an offshore wind.



From the 2014 Michigan Hunting and Trapping Digest

During the December Muzzleloading Seasons.
"Muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a .. muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."

Firearm Deer Seasons - Limited Firearm Deer Zone.(old shotgun zone)
"• A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
• A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.
• A .35 caliber or larger air rifle or pistol charged only from an external high-compression power source, or a muzzle-loading rifle."

Firearm Deer Seasons - North of Limited Firearm Deer Zone
"Deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, crossbows, bows and arrows, shotguns,and muzzleloading firearms, including black powder handguns."

The reason is you can return the original Savage ML, and apparently the new Remington, back to a cartridge rifle with the installation of the correct barrel. (Think T/C Encore) If a custom maker uses a cartridge rifle action to build their gun, then it is subject to BATF rules and requires a Form 4473 to transfer.

Poster Bodkins lives in VA.

Yep, I got that. I was responding to your assertion that Savage and Remington MLs are restricted in southern MI. They're not, unless you load them with smokeless. You can however, use smokeless in the northern zones during the general firearms season, but not the December muzzleloading season.

Sticks and stones might break my bones...and so might 200 gr of blackpowder!

I never gave that assertion. That's why I wrote 'smokeless' next to the word Savage. Referring to the powder in the gun.

You should consider addressing the correct poster, when replying to poster comments here.

I'm done with this. Not going to get an argument on this subject. It's not anything that needs more of my explanation.

Wasn't intending to argue T7. As far as addressing the right poster, I use the quick reply and don't pay attention to the Re:. Since I posted right after yours, I figured you'd get it.

I've read about the Savage redesign. I'm a bit curious as to whether Remington determined that it would end up classified as a firearm or if the Feds heard about it, decided to investigate, and then declared it so.

Everybody is sharing their knowledge with you. If it aint made for smokeless, dont do it!

Thats the stated obvious.

I believe he's jumped ship on this. Probably went someplace where they'll tell him what he wants to hear.

kaboom.com/ forums?

or maybe the smokeless thing didn't work out in his gun

tmitch your right an the box my friend ultimate muzzleloader the Remington 700 says its a muzzleloader but you have to go threw a ffl because you can change barrels on this .Just like the savage but savage can shoot modern powder. Now old Ned Roberts states this in the book on Cap Locks Rifle they put a small charge modern powder before the charge of black powder in cap locks in 1900s when shooting matches

I'd be willing to bet they knew full well what they were doing. That's a big company with a large legal department, but I don't think they'd try to "slip one under the rug" and risk a battle with the BATF. With the vacating of the market by Savage they were probably just trying to fill the slot as fast and cheap as possible, albeit not smokeless. The gun required very little design work and related costs on Remingtons part. Use a standard off the shelf 700 short action, screw on a .50 barrel and borrow/buy/rent a breech plug design from from someone else (Johnston), and there you have it. I am surprised though that they brought it out before it was proven with BH209. Another cost savings for Remington I guess, Western is doing it for them.

why spend a grand or so to shoot smokeless powder in a gun that it is NOT intended for
when you can buy a nef 45/70 and convert it for less than 500 bucks and not blow you self up

not complicated for me

It doesn't appear that Remington just threw together a bunch of regular 700 short action parts. I have one, and many of the parts used in assembly come straight out of their custom shop. It doesn't have a normal 700 action, mine has a solid bottom 40x action. Even the front ramp and front post on mine are custom shop parts borrowed from their custom shop 458wm.

The Blackhorn 209 deal is something they are working with Western Powders on, not an after thought. Remington went out and purchased the rights to the Johnston plug, so its use now belongs to them, to use as they see fit. They could have easily kept it the same, but their testing proved that it did not work for their needs, so they changed the steel to the highest level of hardness 416 Stainless currently made. They changed the threads, the fit, the casing, and the flash hole design. So now it does work for their needs. Western Powders has already tested the gun to their current highest recommended max published loads for Blackhorn 209. The gun is so strong, that last September they announced plans to work with Remington to test and develop new magnum load data specific to this rifle alone. Once this new level of testing was completed, they promised to publish this new "Remington Ultimate Only" data. Since that time they put out a blog on results shooting 150 grain by volume loads, which performed exceedingly well. Many in the industry have been pushing the gun, such as Bob Parker, with even heavier loads, having spectacular results. I would expect Western Powders to find the new ceiling for this gun before next hunting season, and it appears likely to be where Parker is at now.

I believed they figured things out fairly well. But it is a first year production gun, and I'd expect some bugs to pop up here and there as production guns by their nature will have a wider range of tolerance and QC than a hand built custom. But, I certainly do not believe they slapped together their cheapest parts to make this thing just good enough to fly and get on the shelves.

Best

I hope it works out okay as I find this, like pretty much everything having to do with rifles, interesting but a solution to a problem I don't have.

Sorry Gary, didn't mean to disrespect your gun nor infer that it is cheaply made (even though I used that word). What I was eluding to was that Remington did not bear the costs related to designing, and the tooling required to build, a non-form 4473 muzzleloader action and breeching system from the ground up. They took an almost identical route that Savage did when they brought out their first version smokeless 10ML. I still think it odd that they would bring out the gun without thoroughly testing it with the most popular and highest performing modern sub powder available. Does the owners manual that came with your gun even mention BH209? When they advertise it for 200 grains of Pyrodex, all I can think of is a filthy mess. I'm sure they're getting it sorted out and sounds like it will work fine, but to me that says they were pushing to market the gun. Again, not trying to trash the rifle, I'd probably buy one if I needed another. I like the looks of the laminated stock model with the receiver sight. Good luck with yours.

No reason to apologize, I recognize you have no experience with the actual gun and were speculating. I just thought I'd throw out my two cents based on my personal experience with the particular gun being discussed.

The manual makes it clear that powders proofed as smokeless are a no-no. Black Powder (the real deal), Replicate Subs of Black Powder (Pyrodex or 777), or Non-Replicate Subs (such as Blackhorn 209), would be mandatory. Blackhorn 209 is not a black powder replicate substitute, such as Pyrodex or 777. The replicas are designed to function just like black powder, i.e., load, smoke, water clean-up, etc. Blackhorn 209 is a non-replicate powder, used with nitro solvent and oil, that is proofed and classified as a black powder substitute. Western Powders has proofed this non-replicate blackpowder substitute for a maximum load of 120 grains by volume. They immediately tested the new Remington with this maximum proofed loading, and it was clearly evident that the gun is far more capable to be pushed further, hence, their announced project to work with Remington to develop a new load manual. As long as you stay within their maximum recommended guidelines, you would be safe.

As for replicate black powder subs, the only current recognized duplicates of the real deal are Pyrodex and 777. As for 200 grain volume loads, the manual is specific to a particular granulation or pellet loading by volume of 777. Blackhorn 209 is more energetic, so loading 200 grains by volume of Blackhorn would be higher than published by Western Powders and would be outside a proofed and recommended maximum loading. To the best of my knowledge their last bit of information put out on this subject was shooting 150 grain volume loads, which is thirty grains higher than their initial max load testing. Pretty certain that "Remington Ultimate Only" data should be published before too long.

My particular rifle did have a few bugs needing to be worked out, but it is running exceedingly well shooting nothing but Blackhorn. I don't get caught up in the hype over firing 200 grains in pellets, 209 vs LRM primers, etc., but I do understand the industry debate over successfully burning all four pellets. To my knowledge, no person has designed a 209 breech plug that was capable of using the superior fire power of the 209 primer to ignite all four pellets, because all 209 primer modules have an inherent spacial void between the primer and the fire channel of the breech plug which kills efficiency. The Johnston breech plug re-designed by Remington is able to maximize the fire from the LRP directly into the fire channel, having an end result of a stronger ignition firing into the load. It is clear that the new Remington does ignite all four pellets, which was not done before with the 209. So, that is the hype Remington is marketing via the 200 grain 777 pellet loads. But in reality, the best performance you'll find out of this gun will not be from those 777 loads, but will be found shooting Blackhorn. This has been repeatedly proven countless times since the gun hit the shelves.

Best

with black powder/bp substitutes being a total explosive it should burn everything you put in it.

It should, and evidently does going by GaryVAs experience. However owners of Ultimate Firearms muzzleloaders, whose breechplug design Remington bought the rights to, have found it to be BH209 unfriendly. Remington has apparently tweeked it to be compatible.

Well I'm glad to see at least one of you has the new 700 and likes it. I ordered one last week and should be here any day. Still don't understand how it's super strong, and western is working up a new MAX load chart just for this gun and yet everyone says it will not handle a small smokeless load, like the IMR-4227 That savage recommends for theirs.

The Johnson guy that invented this breech plug, did he invent it for smokeless guns or just BP?

it is called metallurgy(sp?)

bp barrels aint as strong pressure curvewise as smokless powder barrels are


the barrel will go boom
and you will go splat




do what ya gonna do man
no one seems to be able to talk any sense to ya


run on 2nd hand info and 2nd hand advice







better yet call Remington tech support and ask them for their smokeless loads they have tested and shot and recommend for their new bp gun...................................

Yes, and no. BP is an explosive, but it's blast characteristics are much different than smokeless powder, and thus the pressures generated are considerably different.

The Johnston plug was designed to shoot 777 pellets out of his gun. Previously, all production attempts to use and burn a 4-pellet load with a 209 primer failed. Though use of a weaker LRM primer, the Johnston design maximized use of the primer by directing 100% of the fire directly into the breech plug fire channel. The 209 systems required a void to be filled prior to the fire being pushed into the fire channel, which resulted in a loss of efficiency. Remington bought this system to use in their production muzzleloader, and it appears they intended to capitalize on the hype of igniting a 4-pellet load of 777. But, Remington also intended the rifle to be used with the popular BH209 sub, so they further modified the system in materials and design to reduce and/or eliminate the erosion issues experienced with the original design. But even with these improvements, the pressure limits of the design to seal between the nipple and casing, fall within the pressure limits of blackpowder and blackpowder subs. Even within those pressures, the design has limits to the point the seal fails and the nipple begins to erode. This seal, with its production tolerances, between the casing and nipple, in addition to the design of the fire channel itself, is not up to par to withstand the increased pressures of a smokeless charge. Though the materials themselves within the Remington are as strong as it gets, these design limitations would likely erode and fail in relative quick order, which would likely be hazardous to users and bystanders.

In relation to the Charlie Baltz ignition system, his is custom built with specific tolerances around a specific 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless load. Even with his system, use outside his strict smokeless guidelines could be catastrophic. Experimenting with his system is foolish, and using his system as an excuse to experiment with the Remington is far outside the bounds logic and common sense.

If looking for a sound method to address a desire to safely shoot smokeless from the Remington with the factory 50 caliber barrel, then one would need to explore having one of the established smokeless builders to manufacture a drop in breech plug which utilizes one of the proven 209 modules which will reliably seal at the higher pressures resulting from smokeless. The factory Remington is built around a CNC machined user friendly replaceable breech plug that does not require any adjustment for headspace. A builder could take advantage of this by adapting a different ignition system which is plug and play. If this was done, then one could maintain the rifle as factory stock and shoot certain smokeless loads, either full bore sabot-less, or sabot loads like the old Savage. This may be something that comes down the pike if there is a demand from end-users. If on the other hand you merely wish to convert the gun over to a dedicated smokeless gun, well this has already been accomplished numerous times by changing barrels and converting the gun to a 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless using various proprietary 209 module systems. Several builder have done this already.

Best

take your ml and shorten the barrel 5-6in ,i bet it will shoot faster. only thing slowing the bullet down is friction,less time in the barrel,less friction. short barrel shoots faster.
with smokelss it would lose speed.

That is a trait of the different explosive qualities of BP over smokeless powder, and again, the pressures involved are completely different. BP doesn't generate anywhere near the pressures of smokeless powder. This is how and why BP could be and was for centuries fired in barrels that were little more than wrought iron. If you put smokeless in those barrels, they will explode because of the different pressures involved.

The issue at hand is whether the barrel and breechplug in that 700ML was designed to operate with BP pressures (which it was) and whether it can handle the substantially higher, different pressures of smokeless (which it was not designed for).

Really








This has to be the dumbest advice I have ever heard concerning internal combustion properties for blackpowder or smokeless powder.
You need to shut the fugg up,stop putting out bogus science about friction and go read up on barrel lengths and powder burn rates.
Seeing the OP,s numbnut thread about "How I want to shoot smokeless powder in my new Remington 700 BP and BP substitute ML",is enough to drive anyone with common sense bonkers, the OP needs no help in injuring himself and is going to shoot smokeless powder in that gun come hell or high water no matter what anyone says to him about the danger of it.

The guy would lose probably anywhere from 20-50 fps in velocity for every inch he lops off a barrel.
And have unburned powder spewing out the barrel(probably half his charge)from lack of barrel length to burn the charge properly.

This is the stupidest advice I have heard in ages. This poster must be one of those gunshop pro types.

there has been a lot of hype about the new Remington Ultimate and while it is a nice gun and clearly not another attempt by big green to just throw another cheap smoker out there I would steer clear of smokeless.

I think the OP got the message loud and clear..

Seems that every time smokeless is mentioned in a muzzleloader people go into spasms, lots of guns shoot smokeless BUT they are designed to do so SAFELY..

the fact is that all muzzleloaders are inherently more dangerous than CF guns be it a SML or smoker. Why is this? Its the nut that stuffs the goods down the barrel and expects it to work without regard to safe muzzleloading practices. Muzzleloaders get blown up every year and not just from guys shooting smokeless in BP guns. smokers get blown shooting BP etc but its almost always from negligence. same goes for Smokeless guns, double loads, ramrods getting shot from barrels etc...

anyone that desires to get educated on SMLs can go to Dougs Message Boards/ Savage Smokeless Muzzleloading and learn all you care to know about the smokeless game.

the new Remington is a great platform to convert to smokeless, with the 40x style action and a decent stock it will make a great gun with the addition of a .45 barrel and plug system

Really








This has to be the dumbest advice I have ever heard concerning internal combustion properties for blackpowder or smokeless powder.
You need to shut the fugg up,stop putting out bogus science about friction and go read up on barrel lengths and powder burn rates.
Seeing the OP,s numbnut thread about "How I want to shoot smokeless powder in my new Remington 700 BP and BP substitute ML",is enough to drive anyone with common sense bonkers, the OP needs no help in injuring himself and is going to shoot smokeless powder in that gun come hell or high water no matter what anyone says to him about the danger of it.

The guy would lose probably anywhere from 20-50 fps in velocity for every inch he lops off a barrel.
And have unburned powder spewing out the barrel(probably half his charge)from lack of barrel length to burn the charge properly.

This is the stupidest advice I have heard in ages. This poster must be one of those gunshop pro types.

[/quote well,its very obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about.black powder is a explosive and does not burn at a so called burn rate like smokeless powder. you will gain speed with a ml barrel if you shorten it.i cut my tc triumph down to 20in long and gained speed. its been done,its a fact.i've seen it done with 2 tc ml'ers and a knight.oh,by the way,the guy that got me interested in cutting the barrel on my tc is a custom muzzleloader builder that shoots national events and was sponsored by knight for over 10yrs.i think he knows what hes doing.i watched him do his knight hunting ml and after seeing his results i did mine. the numbnut(op) is a good friend of mine and he is not planning on taking a rem ml out and shooting it with smokeless powder unless its been tried and tested to be safely done. he is only trying to see if anyone out there has done it yet.someone will do it very soon ,i'd bet on that.until you learn more and know what you are talking about stop the [bleep] name calling.

It is so dumb Southern Michigan doesn't allow the use of smokeless powder MZ's using smokeless powder.

dumb. dumb, dumb

No it's not. There's been smokeless muzzleloader bullet-holes inside kitchen cabinets of homes in Michigan shotgun-only zones.

If you're talking about the general firearms seasons, I don't think powder type should matter as long as ballistics are held within certain parameters in more populated zone 3. In the dedicated muzzleloader season, no way. I'd even go for further restrictions, and no, I'm not a strict "traditionalist". I have close to a dozen inlines, a couple smokeless and a few side hammers. There's a point where the ballistics and capabilities of "modern muzzleloaders" negate the reason a special muzzleloading season even exists.

Yep.
Personally, I judge distances real well. I hold-true to 150 yards or less and powder volumes to match it, during muzzleloader season. The same applies when I "once-in-a-while" bring my muzzleloader to the rifle zones for Michigan's Nov 15-30th rifle season/zone.

NM used to allow smokeless, they did away with it a few years ago. If you want to shoot long range and smokeless, they call it Rifle season.

Hatcher's Notebook, (by Julian S. Hatcher, 3rd edition, June 1962).

This is a proven fact already well documented in the field of internal ballistics, but it does not always occur in high powered rifle cartridges, and I'm unsure if it would ever occur in the context of this discussion.

The bullet is pushed down the barrel from pressure that peaks and is declining within milliseconds. Pressure behind the bullet begins to decrease, and if the barrel is long enough, at some point, the friction of the bullet against the bore, combined with the air pressure in front of the bullet within the bore, will equal the decreased pressure behind the bullet. At that point, the bullet cannot go any faster, and the friction of the remaining barrel length will slow the bullet prior to exiting the muzzle. High powered rifle cartridges may never reach this point within standard barrel lengths. But, a 22 rimfire, as example, will reach this point of equal pressure at approximately 14" to 16" down the bore. Beyond that point, friction from the barrel can slow it down.

In terms of explosive black powder and patched round balls, I do believe someone like Dixie Gunworks, tested a mid-bore muzzeloader for this effect. I recall they used a 40 or 45 caliber, with something like 40 or 45 grains of powder. Do not recall the starting length, but it was fairly long. They tested for velocity, cut the barrel down, tested, and kept shortening the barrel and testing. In that test, the barrel always lost velocity when cut shorter. Even with the longest barrel, the effect of equal pressure was never reached. So in terms of 100 to 150 grain volume charges of Blackhorn behind a 50cal sabot/bullet, I'd have no clue as to how long a barrel would need to be for the sabot/bullet to reach that point of equal pressure. It could be 28 inches or it could be five feet, I don't know.

Best

I checked, it was Dixie Gun Works. 40 caliber, patched round ball, 47 grains FFFg black powder. Started with 40-inch barrel, and kept chopping it down until it was 20-inches. Fastest velocity was the longest length. Lost velocity each time it was cut. So the barrel was not long enough at 40-inches to reach that point of equal pressure for friction to take over and slow down the patched ball.

been tested here with a chrony,they are wrong. we've done it with a tc triumph,tc omega and a knight. they all gained fps.simple test .i just bought a 45 caliber cva inline that i may shorten today. we have gotten better accuratcy out of all of them with 20-21" barrels. doing away with QLA on a tc gun may be why mine is more accurate.

I posted above to support that such a velocity loss from barrel friction can exist, as it was long ago proven and is well documented in numerous peer reviewed publications. The Testing Dixie conducted was well documented using a scientific method with a repeatable outcome. They were not wrong, they published an article and those results were established.

It is not only Hatcher, Dixie, and a score of other ballisticians confirming such findings, but even Thompson Center Arms used Ed Yard, a well-known ballistics engineer, to conduct accurate pressure and velocity testing in rifle barrels for their company. His extensive testing for T/C resulted in these findings:

"Velocity gain per inch of barrel beyond 28 inches is approximately 8 fps per inch, declining gradually until at about 42 inches there is no velocity gain from increased barrel length. Velocity may be expected to drop as bore friction negates the velocity gains of an increased charge."

I cannot find any reference for yours, or any other peer reviewed testing that negates the published findings from the previous decades to support that a projectile fired from a modern muzzleloader will reach maximum velocity within 20 inches, and that any barrel length beyond that point will reduce velocity via bore friction. Some reference material supporting your claim would be interesting to review.

Best

Remember gunshop pro/tackleberry types know it all and stammer and waffle when asked to show some research to back up their proclamations of great knowledge and experience. He probably has a .270 also.

like i said we've done it 3 times already,it works. i could care less what anyone else say when 2 different chonographs show otherwise.you guys are talking about stuff that you were told or read. i'm talking about being there and seeing it with my oewn eyes.

crasher,your smartass remarks above were uncalled for and anything you post after means nothing to me.

Show us some proof then while you are scrambling to find some. I got some extra lead that you and your gunshop pro buds can turn into gold and then you can tell us all about it,cause you seen it with your own eyes 3 times.

just shortened another today. 45cal is shooting great.

is the wind blowing ,again?

This thread has turned stupid. I'm just here for the name calling so please continue on.



Where's the popcorn!!!

I got my new Remington 700 ultimate. Waiting for snow to melt and gonna take it out and play with it. You measure smokeless powder in a regular old black powder measure right? I have a old powder horn I was going to carry full of smokeless powder and just try to eyeball 100 grains of smokeless but then you guys got me thinking maybe I should carry the old powder measure also...... lol I'm just picking on you I do know you weigh smokeless just laughing thinking about everyone cussing.

Don't waste time, load straight out of the can. Don't forget to shorten the barrel to 20-inches to better your velocity. Also, you may want to consider using a double-base vs single-base. You can get a pretty respectable detonation velocity of about 7,300 m/s (23,950 ft/s) with a single-base powder, but if you're going through all that trouble to chop the barrel down to 20-inches, you can increase the detonation velocity up to around 7,700 m/s (25,260 ft/s) with a double-base.

I'd not bother posting any of your load data, you and srwshooter out of Grottoes would be the only persons on the planet interested. But, I'm sure if it is spectacular enough, you guys may make this years "hold my beer and watch this" Darwin Awards. For that, there needs to be some sort of Youtube video to showcase your self-selecting actions. Now that may be something the rest of us would find useful to post when others are vying for the same award.

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Stupid is as stupid does

In terms of sanity, load the included bullet/sabot with 130gr volume (91gr weight) of Blackhorn 209 and shoot away. You can get respectable groups with that combo. Same load of powder, but shoot Parker Production 275BEs and you can get a most respectable group.

The above charge will handle most any chore needed, but, you may find slightly improved results under certain circumstances by increasing the charge weight some degree. Western Powders have yet to release their new load data for this specific rifle, but they have completed testing so far with loads as high as 150gr volume. Others, such as Bob Parker have recorded exceptional results shooting loads with the 275BE at 160gr volume. I suspect that something around that range will end up being the new top charge of Blackhorn 209 with this specific rifle. It will be head and shoulders above any load of 777.

Good Luck, I'll either see some posts about your success with this rifle, or I'll watch your award winning Darwin video. Those can be rather humorous in the stupidity of self-actions exercised by the recipients, but, I do believe all were killed except one since the awards inception.

Good Luck

If loads are posted, moderators need to delete them as they did on Doug's Message Boards smokeless forum.

yep..........................................................
also muzzleloading Darwin awards as per garyva , handed out to several on here also