Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns One shot stops.....

By rifle standards, it is merely a 22 Hornet, if that. By handgun standards, it is indeed very fast.

Maybe it isn't fast enough to create lots of collateral damage to distant tissue. This is what I would like to find out. I CAN say with certainty that collateral damage to rodent pelts is far reaching with 45gr bullets launched from a Hornet rifle or a Contender.

I might have to bring one to the 2016 hog hunt and try it out.

not really even by handgun standards.....in my 13 year old Speer manual there are around 10 handgun rounds(not counting rifle rounds in a single shot pistol, talking straight walled , short handgun rounds) that are within 200fps of a 22TCM launching heavier bullets by 2 or 3 times.....your not gonna see much of any "extreme shock" on anything bigger than a ground squirrel.....

still wouldnt mind one as a rabbit/gopher gun for fun but there isnt anything "uber" about its ballistics.....

still cant figure out how you think if the speed really doesnt cause that much shock out of a rifle it will in a handgun.....most the shock from teh mild velocity 22 rounds is from highly fragible bullets, not cause 2000ish fps is some magic threshold.....

Gawd!

Mark,
I'm not sure of your source re: the 5.7 at Walla Walla PD. That said a good friend who is a SWAT member and Narc detective from an local dept in previous discussions has told me that several depts in the area got (6) 5.7's for T&E and all declined to buy them as the 5.7 never gained much terminal effects, reliability and energy to their issued 40 S&W and 5.56's.

I will have to double check but last i knew the Columbia, Garfield, Adams and Benton county teams all ran 14.5" or 16" AR's with a few residual MP5's and a few new UMP's scattered around for SWAT and special assignments.

In the end KE (if one believes in it) is still determined by the equation of KE=1/2 (m+v^2). Due to this fact an increase of mass will always outweigh an increase in velocity in terms of KE. In other words a 55gr projectile at 2300fps (conservative from a 5.56 with 7.5" AR barrel) will always out trump any 5.7 rd.

A better comparison would be the 5.7 to the 22 WMR. Granted the 5.7 has more effective projectiles then 22 WMR but if the same technology was applied to the WMR the race would be damn near negigible and i cannot fathom a single LE application where either is preferred.

My brother in Law is a Sergeant in the local PD and one of the SWAT team leaders. It is he who told me of the Departments purchase and use of the FN 5.7 pistol and round. He liked the gun so much that he got one of his own.

I do think that speed might count for more than originally thought, that is why I am wondering aloud if the speed factor should perhaps be more of a sought after item in the pistol world. And it could be that the bullets are helping the faster rounds as well. I am not trying to make the case that the fast 22 caliber pistol rounds will or will not be better. I am merely asking the question of the various camps here "might it be THE factor and more than we have thought over the years?" And seeking posts from anyone who has used this round on bigger than a squirrel or have a link to a report of the use of them.

I don't think in a handgun platform we will ever be able to get any "significant" speed to what you are articulating, without going absurdly light on bullet weight. Having said that, I have killed a truckload of game with handguns, many in the man-size range, and I can tell you that light and fast can be a recipe for disaster.

I think the only way to a reliable one-shot stop is placement- CNS.

The 5.56 NATO round is faster than any of these 22 caliber handgun rounds and it isn't a good shot stopper either. Fact is a determined attacker can continue to press an attack after his internal organs are destroyed for a period of time.
The only way to always effect an instant 1 shot stop is to take out the central nervous system.
It is as simple as that.

If I were inclined to research it, I would try to dig up everything I could on the Fort Hood "workplace violence" incident. Major Hassan used a 5.7x28.

Also bear in mind when you talk to police that they may be using ammo not legal for non-police.

I did not know that, THANKS! I will try to look for that.

Don't bring mere facts into this.

Damn, beat me to it, so according to the OP a 22 cal rifle is inadequate for a SHTF rifle, but a 22 cal pistol going at least 1,000 fps slower is a one shot killing machine on men?

Wow

Yep, I am always amazed at his "logic".

Those that insist on defining "hydraulic shock" as something that doesn't exist or can only occur at supersonic speeds rely on a single and often inappropriate definition of the word "shock". In fact hydraulic shock is a well known phenomena that is dealt with regularly n the engineering of liquid transfer systems, i.e. piping, and there are formulas to predict the amount of hydraulic shock that will occur given various input parameters.

Here is one definition:

"Hydraulic shock is the term used to describe the momentary pressure rise in a piping system which results when the liquid is started or stopped quickly. This pressure rise is caused by the momentum of the fluid; therefore, the pressure rise increases with the velocity of the liquid, the length of the system from the fluid source, or with an increase in the speed with which it is started or stopped. Examples of situations where hydraulic shock can occur are valves, which are opened or closed quickly, or pumps, which start with an empty discharge line. Hydraulic shock can even occur if a high speed wall of liquid (as from a starting pump) hits a sudden change of direction in the piping, such as an elbow. The pressure rise created by the hydraulic shock effect is added to whatever fluid pressure exists in the piping system and, although only momentary, this shock load can be enough to burst pipe and break fittings or valves."

The question is whether or not sudden increases in hydraulic pressure can cause damage well beyond the point of impact and of course the answer is "yes". One only needs to shoot a watermelon with a suitable projectile to verify this,

People can argue semantics all day long but in the real world high-speed bullet impacts can and do often do cause damage far from the impact site due to pressure waves. If one chooses to insist "hydraulic shock" doesn't exist or exists only at super-sonic speeds they may want to do a little more research.

I'm with Whitworth on this. I've killed somewhere around a dozen deer with handguns. If you want to track them or lose them, use a 357 with 110 grain bullets. I learned that lesson on my first handgun deer in 1974 after reading some Ayoob story about a Corsican ram hunt with a Jerry Moran Python. I switched to 44's & heavy 45 Colts a few years later using heavy SWC's and JHP's. That was the game changer and I've never looked back.

I have killed some deer with rifles too, including a .223/65 SP running about 2800. Heart shot at 160 yards-



Ran about 20 yards and plunked over as if I had shot him with my 45 Colt.

My standby deer stomper is a 150 grain Nosler BT at 2944 and with shoulder hits it literally drops them from 20 to 250 yards. I have seen plenty of bloodshot meat but I have never seen these 'ruptured vessels' a foot from the impact. But then I was paying attention to the obvious effect of the bullet and not trying to prove a theory irrelevant to the task.

FWIW I spent 33 years as a cop and 12 of those as the investigator for a state prosecutor. Saw plenty of human carnage there including both handguns and high powered rifles. I don't recall a single ME report where vessel damage away from the wound site was noted.

Something to remember about anti-personnel use of the handgun- people getting shot at often reflexively throw their hands and arms up and or turn away at odd or oblique angles. You better have a bullet that will penetrate in a relatively straight line and knock a big hole while doing it. The old 45's do this as well as anything and I'm sure not abandoning them for some little pistol that squirts 25-40 grain bullets.

PS. Do yourself a favor and forget all this 'one shop shot' nonsense, which is designed to sell you books and the latest greatest magic bullet. Shoot well and keep shooting until your problem is solved, regardless of how many legs it has.

This.


Very early in my career we had an officer involved shooting where the suspect ended up with a 12 gauge slug through his belly. He still continued to advance and was brought down by a second slug. This one center ounched him and removed a sizable chunk of his spine.

shot placement is the key to one shot stopping, not what magic bullet or new cal you are using at the time. If i had to pick a round for the semi-auto handgun as having the best potential for one shot stopping it would be the 357 Sig . I don't remember who said this , but a handgun is a tool you use to fight your way to a rifle .

I know of at least one bear that would've appreciated a hot .22 caliber projectile in the boiler room rather than a "T-Rex" round through the azz, but I suppose that's a different scenario....🙈