Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns One shot stops.....

I have done a ton of research on the subject and I believe that the most reliable info on the subject is by Dr. Martin Fackler. By the way a water melon isn't a deer, pig or human and doesnot react like tissue and muscle. As the size of the animal increases so does their ability to soak up the hydraulic pressure created by speed.

Whom ever said that a handgun is a "tool to fight your way to a rifle" is an idiot. If one is involved in a lethal confrontation the best way to survive is to end it quickly and that means with what you have at the time of the confrontation.

That "idiot" would be Clint Smith.

I'll side with Clint.

If a rifle is available - I'd MUCH rather have that. If a rifle isn't available - I'd make due with the pistol but I'd rather have the rifle.

I don't think that Clint said that.



Clint did say this

"The handgun would not be my choice of weapon if I knew I was going to a fight. I’d choose a rifle, a shotgun, an RPG or an atomic bomb instead."

Clint Smith

yet hard cast rounds launched out of a 45-70 at that speed dont do what you say cause the speed is not enough to do it.....the ONLY reason mild 22's SEEM to do it at these speeds on SMALL targets is highly frangable bullets dumping their energy in a short distance.....but unless your target weights only a couple pounds your not gonna see anything spectacular as far as on shot stops....for phug sakes as others have pointed out you thought the 223 in an AR was to wimpy to reliably save your arse, you needed atleast a 308....WFT do you think a 22TCM is really gonna do?

Any Peace Officer with 5 or more years on the job will say that.

Truly portable handguns are inherently under-powered if one is looking for a one-shot stop. Handguns are for emergencies that you don't see coming. If you know you're going to be in a gun fight and have time to prepare, holster the pistol and grab the rifle.

The whole "fight your way to a rifle" catch phrase is just that, a catch phrase. IME it's used most often by people who suck at pistol shooting.

The overwhelming majority of good guy shootings in this country are resolved with pistols, and that ought to be clear enough evidence that "fighting your way to a rifle" just ain't so

This has not been my experience. As I mentioned in my earlier posts to this thread, Deer and Elk I have shot with high velocity rounds (more than a couple of lbs, and most often using very non frangible Barnes solid copper bullets) have died in very sudden fashion many times and exhibited bloodshot meat and seriously damaged organs and parts quite a ways distant from the bullet path.

I am NOT saying that for sure a 2000fps bullet from a pistol would do this, I am wondering 1) might they? and 2) Does anyone here have or know of any solid, factual information about or experience with this yet?

RE the 5.56 VS 308 debate, I have gone back and forth on this. It seems that, based upon my most recent readings (and this is all I have, not a veteran) of reports is that within the shorter ranges where velocity is still very high quick stops are quite often exhibited.

The Chicago Police officer interview posted in this forum and reading Allan Jones material as well as other persons who have real life experience is what is leading me to consider other options, opinions and viewpoints other than what has been commonly held for a long time. And I have been a big bullet proponent my whole life. Packing lots more 44's and 45's and 10mm's than smaller cartridge handguns over the course of my now 33 years of carrying daily.

you are an idiot....2000FPS IS NOT HIGH VELOCITY.......for phug sake its barely over black powder numbers........

And who decides what is "High Velocity"? When the 30/30 was first introduced, it was considered VERY high velocity as it was going - GASP! - 2,000 fps! 22LR ammo that is running 1250fps is marked "High Velocity" Most consider the 357SIG to be a very high velocity number for a handgun. To persons accustomed to shooting 230gr bullets at 800fps or so, a bullet travelling 2 and a half times that speed certainly seems to be pretty high velocity. By the standards of handgun speeds - and handguns are what we are talking about - 2,000fps IS very high velocity.

No, it is not high velocity in the same realm as my 220 Swift, 7mm Mashburn Super and such but in the realm of handguns it very much is.

The question at hand, and the one I sought to answer with this post or at least begin discussing is this:

1)IS a 22 caliber bullet at apx 2000fps high velocity ENOUGH to produce tissue damage far from the bullet path AT HANDGUN AND DEFENSIVE DISTANCES and

2) If such a round can and does produce significant tissue damage far from the bullets path, then is it enough additional damage to overshadow the obvious larger permanent wound channel of the traditional rounds, and enough additional to significantly increase the number of one shot stops in HANDGUN RANGE encounters.

Whether the 223 is an effective man stopper at 500 meters or more, is not part of the concern or query.

I could now call you a derogitory name here for still not understanding the question at hand or the parameters surrounding the question being discussed, but I shall not stoop to such.

I guess you two aren't BFF's anymore.

Dink

Exactly. I would suggest that bad pistol shots not impose their limitations on those who can. Again, placement will be your determining factor on effectiveness.

actually having a rifle would be ideal.....but much of life is not ideal, especially when chit tends to go wrong on you and knowing how to shoot with a pistol you have with you trumps a rifle 100 yards away outside in your truck or back in the house by a whole hell of alot........

Mark it is you that does not understand. Since we have mayrs 3000 or more FPS this would definately mean that 2000 FPS is no longer high velocity. My cousin spent 3 1/2 years in Iraq/Afganistan and he found the 5.56 to not be an effective combat round on average at relatively short combat ranges. The 7.62 is vastly superior at all ranges. You should know this. A friend that is a policeman told me about a guy that his department shot over 40 times before he went down and most hits were from the 223 at close range (inside 50 yards).

You argue with everything that does not suit your agenda. Just get a dam 22 TCM and give it a rest.

i publicly ate that plate of crow a fair while back....

Why does anyone ever even try to reason with Mark?

Let's try this in something approaching rational, sane, and coherent discussion, shall we?

First of all, 2k fps is not "high speed". It's certainly not "ultra", or "hyper", or any other "uber" word. It's pedestrian. It doesn't matter whether the platform firing it is a handgun or a long gun, the velocity is still pedestrian. Carry handguns all operate in pedestrian velocities.

Now, look at the bullet weights you're describing; 40-50 grains. Think about that: 40-50 grains. That rimfire territory.

To begin with the analysis of the .22TCM, You're talking about something that has just over 1/2 (yes, ONE HALF) the velocity of the .223 with a 40 grain soft point. Is this round known for "hydrostatic shock" and "one shot stops" on deer size game? Is it known for it at 250-300 yards, where the ballistics equal the .22TCM?

You're talking about something that is roughly 700 to 800 fps SLOWER than the .22 Hornet. Is the Hornet know for "hydrostatic shock" and "one shot stops" on deer size game? Is it known for that at 100 yards (where the ballistics equal the .22TCM)?

You're talking about a round that almost exactly the same ballistics as the .22WMR from a rifle. Is that round known for "hydrostatic shock" and "one shot stops" on deer size game?

You bring up the shock kills of deer and elk with magnum rifle cartridges. Yes, that happens. You're also talking about true HIGH velocity rounds (over 3,000 fps) that deliver to the target energy that is several multiples of the target weight. For example, a .300Wby with a 180 grain bullet delivers well over a ton and one-half ft.lbs. at 100 yards (and at roughly 3k fps) and over one ton of energy at 400 yards. A 200 pound deer is being hit with 20 to 30 times it's body mass. An elk is being struck roughly 4 times it's mass.

Now, look at the TCM. At the muzzle it delivers under 400 ft.lbs. That's barely 2x times the body mass of a reasonable man, and could be considerably less than that depending upon the size of the person involved.

We know from many years of testing and many decades of research that one of the factors that play into a handgun delivering effective results on game and on humans is energy, yes, but it's also bullet profile and diameter, it's penetration, and it's momentum. The TCM is delivering the same energy on target as almost any other decent defensive round, but it's doing so with a needle thin front profile and very little mass of it's own.

The concept of a high-ER speed handgun round is not new. Remington loaded for years the 9x19 with a +P load and a 95 grain JSP. That load clocked out of 4" barrels at about 1500 fps. It didn't perform well on humans because it lacked the mass to penetrate. At 95 grains, it's over 2 times heavier than the TCM bullet and almost identical sectional density (.107 to .114).

We can go back even further and find a round that more closely approached the TCM in velocity: the 7.62x25. The Russian ".32" launched an 85-88 grain slug at up to 1800 fps. The sectional density is slightly greater than the TCM (.125-.129 to .114) and the velocity very close; within 200 fps. The Russian ".32" delivered well over 500 ft.lbs.; more than 25% more than the TCM and did so with a greater front bullet profile. I like the Russian .32; it's a good round. It is not known for being a "fight stopper", though, and it has a very long service record.

If you want a "one shot stop", go with the odds. Those odds stock up heavily in favor of the .357 Magnum with a 125 JHP, the .45ACP with a 200-230 JHP, the .40S&W with a 155-165 JHP, or the 9x19 +P with a 115-124 JHP. All of these, save the .45, have almost identical characteristics as far as velocity, energy, and bullet construction and sectional density. They delivery 400-500 ft.lbs., the do so with a bullet constructed to penetrate well WHILE expanding (and not coming apart), and with more than .35" in frontal profile. The .45 overcomes the slight velocity edge of the others by adding mass to the bullet.

The .22TCM does not compare to those proven show stoppers in any characteristic. It's marginally faster, yes, but it's 1/3 to 1/6 the weight, with a diameter profile that is at least 60% less, and with a bullet that is not designed to penetrate while expanding.

It's a neat design, and it'd be fun to shoot; like the 7.62x25. But, it's no "one shot stopper".

your question has been repeatedly answered....you just keep ignoring it cause it doesnt fit what you want to believe....you think a 2000fps 22 bullet should cause major hydrostatic shock yet show me one big cased black powder rifle round that does....that should answer you phuggin question right their if you could actually comprehend what you read.....

I don't know, but it's always good for 6 or 7 pages.