Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns One shot stops.....

I am wonder if some of the newer mega fast rounds might afford such more often with the effects of hydraulic overload effect (sometimes mistakenly referred to as hydraulic shock) with some of the really fast rounds like 22TCM, 5.7x28 and a couple of others.

Anyone read any reports on these rounds effectiveness?

Mega fast..
Hydraulic overload..

Not sure I understood the comment/question? My 5.7 is fast and deadly accurate, but I haven't shot any people with it lately. The little critters that I have shot with it in the past seemed "shocked" and died quickly.

He's medicated.

357 Magnum 125 gr HP would be your best bet

Actually, I believe the correct term is hydraulic pressure, but why argue semantics?

Or, hydrostatic pressure - or, hydrostatic shock.

Actually, a shock wave can be created when fluid is rapidly displaced by an explosive or projectile.

Tissue behaves similarly enough to water that a sonic pressure wave can be created by a bullet impact,
generating pressures in excess of 1,500 psi. - - - Just off the top of my head. (plagiarized)

Sometimes I use words that I don't know the meaning of so I can sound more photosynthesis.

Yes indeed, the "magic bullet" Haven't found it yet but the search continues.

Careful Blue, you wouldn't want to leaf yourself open to flippant remarks

The wounding effect, that occurs when 2000+ fps projectiles strike tissue, results from that tissue being stretched to the point of tearing and secondary damage from bone fragments.

Depending on exactly where the bullet strikes, incompressible body fluids may or may not be driven away from the impact; but the others are the concern of those responsible for treating the wounded and documenting injuries of the dead.

That is more to the point. I know that big slow bullets work and kill stuff such as my 416Rigby on Elephant and Cape Buffalo and such which are just too big to get 'shocked' to death by any rifle that a normal man could fire from his shoulder but by the same token, deer die - IME and IMO - MUCH faster when hit by a 257WBY than a 38/55 or 44 Magnum carbine. Even, and maybe even especially, up close.

I have observed broken blood vessels on deer and elk as far as 20 or more inches away from the impact point of a bullet when hit by extremely high velocity rounds like the 6/284 on deer and 300RUM on a not too distant bull elk.

And the difference in impact reaction on varmints between a 22LR, which runs in the same speed class as a 9mm loading and a 22WMR or 22 Hornet which is more in the same speed class as the 5.7 FN round and the 22TCM is very dramatic.

So my point or query/thought pattern is this:

Maybe we have been doing this all wrong....

Instead of bigger bullets like a 230gr .45 (which according to some does not give markedly different results than the much smaller - by 1/2 - 9mmx19 or Parrabellum) perhaps we should be looking to extreme speed rounds like I mentioned above.

PERHAPS, and I do not know nor do I have a good way to test this, the result and effect of bursting blood vessels and nerve centers more than a foot away from an entry point and the pressure that extreme velocity brings to the table VS making a larger permanent wound cavity would result in fewer rounds being needed to incapacitate a would be attacker, felon, or other threat.

I know that here in Walla Walla, some officers train with the few FN 5.7x28 pistols the Department has and that these handguns are sent out with officers who are doing high value target protection. The main idea is, I am told, to be able to defeat possible body armor of a more highly trained and equipped potential assasin. That is all well and good and it is pretty well known that a small projectile at very velocity works far better than a 230gr 45 caliber slug (and at typical speeds of around 800fps THERE is an apt name) from a large bore handgun.

BUT... what if these super speed rounds, due to the well known and well documented effects of high velocity are far MORE effective, even with just one hit, than the tried and true rounds of the past?

I am thinking they might, and would not be at all surprised if they soon prove themselves to actually be much more effective.

Has anyone here heard or read about the use of any of these over 2,000 fps rounds in a life or death shooting scenario?

Even if the now oft proffered idea of most pistol fight stops needing more than one hit, and little to distinguish the effect of a hit from one round or another, perhaps the low recoil and thus shootability plus the many round capacities of the double stack 22TCM and 5.7x28 really are a better choice.

I don't know, but I thought the topic worthy of the good folks here and an idea which merits some investigation, conversation and follow up.

It's hydraulic torque converter.

Well a Volkswagen beetle at 100mph or a semi truck at 60mph? Thinking dead is dead. For myself bigger is better.

Apples and oranges, and a very old cliche'

1)The size differences between a Beetle and a Semi are FAR more vast than between even the largest and smallest pistol bullets.

2) Neither is reaching supersonic speeds let alone anywhere near the speed to create the effect of a very high speed bullet

and

3) against human flesh, both would be equally lethal and definite "one shot stop" events.

Pretty poor analogy, does not fit the topic at all.

And we have to now question our old ideas that "bigger is always better" now that empirical data is showing that in the case of pistol or handgun rounds VS quick fight stopping this is just not being shown as true.

In fact, even the fairly old now Evan Marshall data we have was trending in the direction of speed VS mass or permanent wound channels. Remember that the 45ACP was trumped and trounced by the 357 Magnum, and that round with a light for caliber FAST bullet.

Apples and oranges. My favorite is a 45ACP. Perhaps because I shoot them better in a 1911 platform. Could not even make Marksman with the M9. 357 Sig looks interesting, just bought a CCW type CZ Rami in 40 S&W, seems good to go, but then again I haven't had to actually to shoot anything other than paper with it.

Well since the 22 TCM only comes in the RIA 1911 as far as I know, and I don't make a habit of trusting my life to a sand casting made by uneducated kids in the Philippines. I don't think I'll be finding out if it's decisive on bad guys. I also see no value for me and my uses in the FN 5.7 other than shooting rabbits and coyotes. I have nice 22 and 32 revolvers for that duty so I'm not going to be dropping the coin for one of them either.

I have lots of 357,9mm,45acp, and 44 magnum handguns. They've all been proven reliable as fight stoppers using the right ammo. If I feel for some reason that I'm headed somewhere super dangerous where getting into a bad situation is very likely I'll grab one of them, hell I may even take a spare magazine or speed loader. Until I start frequenting such areas I'll happily go traipsing about town with a pocket full of J frame, some common sense, and good shooting skills without getting too wrapped up in whatif ballistic gack.

I shot and carried a 44 Special for a long time, then a bunch of different good 1911's in 45ACP. My daily carry gun now is a 1911 in 10mm with Norma Equivalent loadings in it i.e. 180gr HP's (either Gold Dots or Golden Saber's) at a chronographed 1375fps. So, I am with ya not against ya.

But, anyone with an open mind and capable of rational thinking should be looking that the interview with the Chicago cop plus many other field experience reports and sitting back with thought and cogitation. Looking for a better mousetrap, so to speak.

THEN, we have Allan Jones. Former ballistician at a large metropolitan PD crime lab in TX and chief ballistician at Speer co. for quite a long time. He has also been reciting the 'no guarantee's of a one shot stop' idea of late and reported in a recent magazine article (he now writes the "Going Ballistic" column of Shooting Times) that the 22WMR is about as good a man stopper as most other cartridges. He went on to say that he was excited to see the development of handgun specific 22WMR ammo, and was hoping to very soon test some of the newer personal defense designed ammo for the 22WMR made by Speer (30gr Gold dot) and Hornaday (45gr flex tip "Critical Defense" loading) as he thought those loading might make the 22WMR a quite good option.

If this man is pumped up over the 22WMR, one would generally surmise that the much more powerful 5.7x28 and even faster still 22TCM might be extremely effective rounds. Both from a standpoint of high damage to a bad guy target and from the perspective of easy shooting and quick repeat shots when needed.

To my thinking, this idea merits consideration and investigation.

For now, my 10mm stays on my hip. But the thought of 18 rounds of alternating expanding and non expanding 45gr bullets at over 2,000fps is very intriguing to me. Thus, this query and thread.

Well now, YOU are just no fun at all here!

You cite the rounds you have on hand as having been proven as good fight stoppers. You must have missed the interview with the Chicago police officer and many other recent studies showing that these pistol rounds are actually NOT good fight stoppers. THAT fact, is kind of the point that we all need to be considering.

If mankind never tried to find out if a plan B was better than plan A for defense of home and hearth, we would still be throwing rocks at each other.

Trying to learn what is better and improving ones defenses are always hallmarks of thinking men.

And, FWIW, (though this thread is not about them) the RIA's are damn fine pistols. The one I have is better out of the box than my Delta Elite was after trips to three different 1911 specialists and a fitment of a new aftermarket barrel. And I have had a lot of 1911's that were considered to be among the best of thier time.

you do realize the 22TCM isnt "mega fast" its flying at 2000fps...you can do that with "bricks" launched out of a 45-70 in a strong action.......not sure what shock your expecting to see along ways from the bullet impact

looking in one of my reloading manuals the 357 Maximum launches 158 Grain bullets the same speed as a 40 grain out of the 22TCM if you want a comparison in the handgun realm.....yeah its "mega fast" alright