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At the same time we are told to keep guns unloaded and locked up. You wouldn't hear me tell you that! An unloaded gun is just something heavy you can hit your assailant with. If I plan on being able to turn to a particular firearm for self-defense it's LOADED. BUT...my kids are grown and out of the house. When my son visits and brings my 2 1/2 year old grandson with him, I put my pistols in my gun safe, and my night stand Glock 20 goes in the Biometric gun safe. It takes about 1.5 seconds to access the Glock from that safe.
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I may have missed it but what officer involved shooting with a constable are you guys talking about?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Brazos County Constable's Office - Precinct 1, Texas - Constable Brian Bachman was shot and killed on 08-13-2012 while serving papers on a subject in College Station, TX.
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Campfire Outfitter
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At the same time we are told to keep guns unloaded and locked up. Not only unloaded but with the ammo separate... Those who espouse that can go pound sand. I have every gun lock my guns have come with, in their original, unopened packages. Dittos...the only reason I haven't discarded them is I don't want that used against me in court should I ever have the misfortune of having to use deadly force against another human being.
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Campfire Tracker
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The instructor for my concealed carry class told us it is our responsibility to keep em unloaded and locked up.
That sound you hear is them pounding sand.
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Campfire Outfitter
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The instructor for my concealed carry class told us it is our responsibility to keep em unloaded and locked up.
That sound you hear is them pounding sand. I don't know if one of them would tell you what he really thought or not. I'm betting that when they went through the certification course that allows them to teach CC, part of the curriculum written by the state requires them to tell you that. They don't have much of choice - the state administers that program and trains the instructors, and the instructors have to follow the curriculum to the letter. I bet most of them swallow a little vomit each time they have to tell the class that.
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Campfire Ranger
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safariman - IIRC, Marshall and Sanow (sp?) researched, studied, and reported on much that same subject in the 1980's.
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Outfitter
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Want one shot stops...ever see the results of taking one between naval and the nutz....even a .22. I have several friends who have "inadvertently" (as in jerked the shot low) shot suspects there and the results have been instantaneous...drop to knees and then down. Have seen two YouTube videos in the last month for store clerks shot robbers in the same spot with the same results...
One of my friends was cashing a juvenile car theft suspect who bailed out and ran on him. Just as he caught up to the kid, the kid turned with gun in hand and tried to shoot...the gun, one of the el cheapo Clerke revolvers, was missing the center pin that held the cylinder in place. So the kid was trying to hold the cylinder closed with his left thumb and pull the trigger at the same time. The firing pin did not hit the center of the primer and it failed to fire...my friend drew and fired two rounds from a .357 Model 19 at about 8'. The first round hit a few inches below the bellybutton and "Bob the kid dropped so fast my second round went over his head....". The kid didn't die but has a colostomy as a reminder not to screw with the police ever again...
The last shooting I worked was a guy on the ground who unloaded a Ruger Standard Model .22 semi-auto into the upper leg and groin on a guy who had knocked him to the ground and was threatening to throw him out a second story window. He hit the guy six times out of nine rounds fired between the upper leg and the lower groin...the guy turned and took one step and collapsed. He died in the hospital a short time later from a clipped femoral artery.
As to finishing the dance with the gun that you brought...the FBI shooting has several great examples...
Supervisory Agent Gorden McNeil....had a shotgun in an open case on the back seat of his car. Got out without it and after being wounded in the hand and running his revolver dry tried to get back to his car to get the shotgun and was hit in the neck and temporally paralyzed. He later said if he had taken the shotgun out in the first place that he would have probably ended the fight before Platt and Matix ever got out of the car.
Edward Mirales....Got out of the car with both a shotgun and his revolver. Even wounded he was able to empty the shotgun and then put the final kill shots in with his revolver.
Rule #3 of the NRA Safety Rules states to always keep a gun "unloaded till ready for use". We teach that if the gun is being kept in the home for personal protection that is the "use" and as such should be kept loaded for immediate use. That said it is the responsibility of the gun owner to make sure that a gun, loaded or not, not be accessible to unauthorized persons.
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Bob,
Was that the 1986 FBI vs. turds Miami shootout that the last two LEOs you mentioned were involved in?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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RJM, Yep, that "magic spot" works. Want one shot stops...ever see the results of taking one between naval and the nutz....even a .22. I have several friends who have "inadvertently" (as in jerked the shot low) shot suspects there and the results have been instantaneous...drop to knees and then down. Have seen two YouTube videos in the last month for store clerks shot robbers in the same spot with the same results...
One of my friends was cashing a juvenile car theft suspect who bailed out and ran on him. Just as he caught up to the kid, the kid turned with gun in hand and tried to shoot...the gun, one of the el cheapo Clerke revolvers, was missing the center pin that held the cylinder in place. So the kid was trying to hold the cylinder closed with his left thumb and pull the trigger at the same time. The firing pin did not hit the center of the primer and it failed to fire...my friend drew and fired two rounds from a .357 Model 19 at about 8'. The first round hit a few inches below the bellybutton and "Bob the kid dropped so fast my second round went over his head....". The kid didn't die but has a colostomy as a reminder not to screw with the police ever again...
The last shooting I worked was a guy on the ground who unloaded a Ruger Standard Model .22 semi-auto into the upper leg and groin on a guy who had knocked him to the ground and was threatening to throw him out a second story window. He hit the guy six times out of nine rounds fired between the upper leg and the lower groin...the guy turned and took one step and collapsed. He died in the hospital a short time later from a clipped femoral artery.
As to finishing the dance with the gun that you brought...the FBI shooting has several great examples...
Supervisory Agent Gorden McNeil....had a shotgun in an open case on the back seat of his car. Got out without it and after being wounded in the hand and running his revolver dry tried to get back to his car to get the shotgun and was hit in the neck and temporally paralyzed. He later said if he had taken the shotgun out in the first place that he would have probably ended the fight before Platt and Matix ever got out of the car.
Edward Mirales....Got out of the car with both a shotgun and his revolver. Even wounded he was able to empty the shotgun and then put the final kill shots in with his revolver.
Rule #3 of the NRA Safety Rules states to always keep a gun "unloaded till ready for use". We teach that if the gun is being kept in the home for personal protection that is the "use" and as such should be kept loaded for immediate use. That said it is the responsibility of the gun owner to make sure that a gun, loaded or not, not be accessible to unauthorized persons.
Bob
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Ranger
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can think of a few reasons why a gut shot would stop someone right the phug now over a chest shot....alot more liquid than the chest so the shock of the impact is gonna be felt more....same shock waves are gonna push up on the diaphragm and knock the wind out of yah......doubt it is a "magic spot" always effective but can see why it would work even given the lack of immediately vital organs(heart, lungs, cns)....
Last edited by rattler; 03/20/15.
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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...yes, the 1986 Miami shooting....
Lots of nerve centers down there. Think about getting punched in the chest vs. getting punched it the gut... Most guys can take a substantial hit in the chest but will double right over with a punch or knee to the groin. Think of a heavy cast bullet punching you in the gut and then slamming into your pelvic bone or lower spine. And a lot of the people I know who shot I the guts survived...lungs/heart you're usually toast.
I've been told the best way to stop a dog is to shoot them in the guts. They can't take the pain...kinda hard when it's charging but one feral dog hunter I read an article by, he would try and shoot the alpha dog in the guts and while he was withering in pain the others in the pack would stand around and he would drop them before they ran off.
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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I have heard, and it makes sense, that if one can break up the pelvic bones the support support system for remaining upright comes unglued. And I have heard that the pain is immense and intolerable.
This is all second hand stuff, I have thankfully never been involved in a shooting. But it sounds very reasonable.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Campfire Ranger
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actually fair number of times with handguns it just punches a hole through the bone and doesnt shatter it.....yeah it hurts but so does any gunshot and adrenalin can cover it up for awhile....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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The shot to the pelvis originated as a body armor drill. A lot of turds are wearing bullet resistant vests in anticipation of being shot. We followed the protocol of most agencies that drilled on the assumption that the bad guy was wearing body armor. Two choices were practiced: double tap to the body one to the head & double tap to the body one to the pelvis. Head shots are difficult because people move their heads almost constantly whereas the pelvis is almost a stationary target. The whole reason for drilling double tap to the body then one to the head was in the event you had no shot to the pelvis. The shot to the pelvis can cripple or kill quickly; hit the hip joint and the bad guy will drop. The femoral arteries run through there as well. Clip one of those and the bad guy has about 2 to 3 minutes to live before he bleeds out.
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Campfire Ranger
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The shot to the pelvis originated as a body armor drill. A lot of turds are wearing bullet resistant vests in anticipation of being shot. We followed the protocol of most agencies that drilled on the assumption that the bad guy was wearing body armor. Two choices were practiced: double tap to the body one to the head & double tap to the body one to the pelvis. Head shots are difficult because people move their heads almost constantly whereas the pelvis is almost a stationary target. The whole reason for drilling double tap to the body then one to the head was in the event you had no shot to the pelvis. The shot to the pelvis can cripple or kill quickly; hit the hip joint and the bad guy will drop. The femoral arteries run through there as well. Clip one of those and the bad guy has about 2 to 3 minutes to live before he bleeds out. true on all that but most of "the hip" is just muscle, fat and the thin bone of the illiac crest which most low speed pistol bullets arent gonna shatter to the point of crippling....you can hit the femoral artery and you can shatter the actual hip joint but both are small targets buried in tissue and easy to miss....hit them and you are golden, miss and not alot is gonna happen on average....
Last edited by rattler; 03/21/15.
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV, so I'll have to bow to your knowledge of the human anatomy that I lack.
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aint a doc either but my ex did have issues with her SI joint, so like my knees did alot of reading....though aint hard to see what your shooting through....outer 1/3s down there are mainly muscle with the thin bone of the hip going through....in all that tissue the hip joint your aiming for is bout fist sized(so bout the same as aiming for a heart shot, except not as obvious where its at, especially in someone packing extra weight), femoral artery is around an inch wide.....middle third would be better....hit to the lower guts may still push up on the diaphram and knock the wind out...straight back is the sacrum which could destabilize the hips but not sure how bad, prolly depends on alot of factors, to low down to be a paralyzing spine shot(based on my blowing a disk and pinching those nerves they are higher up)
hitting tissue beats hitting a vest for sure but not as sure of a thing as you were prolly led to believe
Last edited by rattler; 03/21/15.
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV, so I'll have to bow to your knowledge of the human anatomy that I lack. But, did you stay at a Holiday Inn Expresss last night?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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