I am shooting a 308 with lapua brass and 45.5 grains of Varget powder. Bullets are 155 grain lapua scenars. This is a compressed load. Very accurate, but have been getting some run out problems on some rounds that were .004-.006 thousandths. This has caused issues, especially at 4-500yds. I have used Redding bushing dies, rcbs standard dies and a Wilson inline seating die. On an empty case with no powder I can get .001 runout. On cases with powder, the compressed powder load with the bullet causes runout, regardless of the seating die. Any ideas to get the bullet to seat without runout? Shooting this load in a tikka, and an older rem 700.

When you say problems, what kind of problems?

What kind of groups are you getting with lower runout?

Is it a waterline problem? What is your ES and SD?

So my tikka shoots a very consistent 3/4-1" 5 shot group at 100 yds with rounds that have run out of .001-.003 . Rounds that have .005-.006 runout will give me groups of around 1.5", maybe a touch less. I have ran this drill about 3 different times. So at, lets say , 500 yds my group (5 shots) is quite a bit bigger with rounds that have .004-.006 run out . This is what I'm trying to eliminate. The bullets seating in a full case is causing this. Again a seated bullet in an empty case is showing .001 run out.

45.5 of Varget doesn't seem like it would need a lot of compression. Up to 46.5 is pretty standard for Lapua brass. What overall length are your loaded cartridges?

A couple of things can help with settling the power for more room. A long drop tube will help as will slowly filling the case, but another effective method for me is to take my MTM loading tray with 50 charged cases in it, sandwich a second tray on top to seal the case mouths and press it against a running case tumbler. That will settle the charge about as much as possible IMO. I much prefer powders that do not require these sorts of tricks though...

I forget the exact coal, I have it written down, but in terms of my tikkas magazine, the bullet runs right out to the very end of it.This was the sweet spot in terms of seating depth when developing the load. As far as a drop tube for the powder, or some other method like you mentioned, I will do it if I have to, but I'm not crazy a out it either.

Is the Varget up into the neck? I shoot up a lot of .308 Lapua brass, but haven't used Varget in years. I used at least 3 jugs of settled or compressed N150 a couple of barrels ago, just because it was available, but did not have any runout issues. Best of luck

Its just below the neck, but up far enough that when I seat the bullet, its pushing into the powder about the last quarter of the way. Thanks for the response.

I ran into the same issue recently myself.I was making some test loads and working up by half grain increments.My last loads were at max and were compressed.I decided to just check the runout,not really expecting it to be much since the brass was once-fired.I had four groups of four.I started with the lower charge weight loads and nothing was over .002,but when I checked the last four that had the highest charge weights,every one of them was .004-.006.I guess I need to watch this closer too.The only remedy I see for this is try dropping the load .5grs and see if the runout changes or try seating the bullet a little longer.I never noticed that much of an accuracy issue with .004-.006 runout at closer ranges,but then I never checked to see if it was an issue at longer ranges,

Wondering if CFE223, AR Comp, IMR 8208 XBR, or even RL 15 would be better options for powder, so he's not having to compress the loads? Just a thought. Where's mathman on this??



I'm seriously doubting you are finding the "sweet spot", with the factory 308 magazine. I'm not exactly sure how you know it's the sweet spot either. How far off the lands are you running that bullet? In all likelihood, if you are using the 308 mag, you are way off the lands. I run the M+ mags in my 308, and my buddy also does the same thing in his T3 stainless varmint model. That way you can load much closer to the lands. More info needed there, like how far off the lands you are. You could find out that with the bullet seated closer to the lands, you won't have a "compressed" load. A lot of my loads in the Tikka run 2.9"+, and the 308 mag is only about 2.8" internal length. The M+ mag will net you around 2.98"

Thanks for the responses. My overall length is 2.78 in my tikka and that's fairly close to the end of the magazine. Could maybe go out a touch more, but not enough to fix my compression problem. Ill look at the load data for r15.

I don't think 0.005" vs 0.003" of runout is causing your group size to double. If it is manifesting on the higher runout cartridges, it may be psychological. More than likely, it is normal distribution for your load.

If you want to eliminate runout, and you're certain it is being induced with bullet seating, the above advice of using a drop tube is good. Additionally, use a "bench rest" or Competition seating die if you're seating with the press. Another thing that can help is using an in-line seating die and arbor press.

Be sure to anneal every firing as well.

I just checked some 308 Win ammo I had loaded with 150gr Interbonds,46.5grs of Varget.OAL was 2.78 and 150gr Ballistic Tip,46.5grs of Varget,OAL was 2.82.I'm seeing very little runout on those loads and I'm a grain more Varget than your load.I'm using once-fired Winchester brass,that may have a larger case volume than your brass.One other thing I have found that will cause higher runout is hard brass.I've watched this working with a group of brass that starts out with nearly zero runout.By the time the brass was fired and resized around four times,the runout really started to increase.Annealed the brass and the runout decreased back to near zero again.

I went to an inline seating die, and arbor press. Same situation. On an empty case there is virtually no run out. On a case with the powder in it, the run out returns. I think the drop tube may be my next thing to try. Agree on the annealing of hard cases. It makes a difference for sure. These cases are on their second firing, and feel pretty good.

Do you have any TAC? That will solve your compression problem.

I load Varget or Shooters World Precision (VERY similar) under 155 Scenars in Rem 308 brass with CCI200s and shoot them in a Tikka T3x. I load on a Dillon 550RL B that's 30+ years old with Redding dies.

Haven't checked for runout, and never do. I shoot them and look for accuracy.

Are you having an accuracy issue and trying to resolve that? If not, why does run out matter?

Yes as I mentioned above, this is about accuracy, especially at distance. With strait rounds at 500 yds laying in the dirt, good conditions, I will shoot a 5" group, sometimes a little less. (5 shots) Take rounds that have .004-.006 runout, and shoot them on the same target the sameday, and this group goes to 7-8". I have duplicated this several times. Same result. Hense, trying to eliminate the run out.

No I dont, but i may go there next. Thanks.

Or Win 748.

Both meter very well.

I don't have any Lapua cases to compare,but I put 45.5grs of Varget in one of my Winchester cases and it was a good bit below the bottom of the neck.I added Varget to the case until it was just up to the bottom of the neck and weighed the powder and I got 49.5grs of Varget.The Lapua cases must have a good bit less volume if 45.5grs of Varget is putting it up to the bottom of the neck.Since it's seating empty cases straight,you might try loading the case with 45.5grs of Varget and seating the bullet long and check the runout.It should be straight.Then seat the bullet in at small increments and keep checking each time to see at what seating depth your picking up the higher runout.You could also anneal a case to see if the runout decreases too.

Winchester 308 cases have become more variable recently, but for most of the time since I started using Lapua cases twenty years ago I've found Lapua 308 cases to be almost twenty grains heavier.

You did not answer my question. How far off the lands are you running those bullets? The mag is a non issue. You likely need to be using a M+ magazine. Seating up closer to the lands will more than likely fix your "compression problem". Your stated 2.78" is very short.

Also, like drop point said, a difference of .005 vs. .001" TIR is not going to cause your groups to double. At least I've never seen groups double with that type of run out. If it were .010+, I'd agree that it may be influencing group size. I'd shoot some 10 shot groups, and see what that load is actually producing. You may be surprised. I'd also get that bullet up closer to the lands. Most guys I know, run them at around .015" off for best results. Work up and find OCW. The only real way you are going to be sure your load is consistent is multiple 10 shot groups. That's what I call "confirming" the load.

Also, I'd shoot for 1/2 moa (for 5 shots, after confirmed), and check it out to your 500 yard distance. It should still remain 1/2 moa at that distance. After all, you are using all the fancy toys, your load should be capable of that type of precisioin..

I don't mess around with unnecessary chidt, but I do make sure my ammo spins true, bullet seated near the lands, and loaded for OCW. All that can be done on a good single stage and regular ol RCBS dies you can buy at Wally world..

Are you using the Scenars for hunting or targets? If 500 yards or so is your max distance there are equally accurate 155s with shorter ogives that would free up some case capacity. Different bullets can be easier to get than different powders these days.

I've been shooting TAC in my Remington 788LH in 308. From memory I think that 45grs of TAC under a 150gr TTSX is one of the most accurate rifles I own.
Yeah... I'd give TAC a try.

I will give the m+ magazine a look. That would certainly help in getting closer to the lands, and give me more room in the case. As to the scenars, we have been hunting with them for years, and have killed a lot of critters with them.They work great. My sons 308 is an old rem 700 that we got from Pat (Scenar Shooter) along with the load data we are using. Upon his recommendation for the scenar bullets we gave them a try, and have never looked back. As an update from yesterday. I built a drop tube and found that this settled the powder about 1/8" more than just pouring the powder in. The bullets seated easier in these cases although there was alittle compression. Just not as much as before. I loaded 3 rounds and checked the concentricity. One measured .001, and two .measured .003. A marked improvement. I thinking will load a batch of these and shoot them at 500yds and look at the results. I might try some tac powder if I have time to play with it as well.

A Tikka mag should get you to 2.810" COAL. That's ~ 1/4" of powder column height you don't need to compress. (2.78" + 0.23 = 2.81")

I've never used a drop tube myself. I will drop about 1/3 of powder into case and then tap the case head on the loading bench. Rinse and repeat for the other thirds. You can visually see this for yourself versus just dumping powder in all at once. Vibrating (tapping) the first and second thirds helps the most.

Atse, sounds like you have a handle on it. For hunting I'd stay with the Scenars as well. If you get the longer mag, see if you can seat them for .005 to .010 jump.

Ummmm

Battery powered tooth brush is your friend for decompression.
Even for ball powders.

atse, if you got the rifle and load data from Mr. Sinclair, you aren't going to get much better than that. That guy knows what he's doing. On your Tikka, though, good idea to check into that M+ mag. It will allow you an OAL of around 2.96" instead of the 2.83" of your M mag. You do need to know where your lands are though. Like MikeS said, experiment with .005-.010" off the lands. However, like I said, I know guys that run them at .015" off and get great results. I've ran the 155 Scenars for a little while, but then went to the 168 and 175 instead. Good luck with it!!

Agree with everything said about. 2 tikka 308's

T3 Lite, 47g varget, 155's, CCI-200, R-P brass, 2.810", (10 shot group, 2862fps, .519 MOA 100 yards)
CTR 20" 47.5g varget, 155's, CCI-200, R-P brass, 2.810", (10 shot group, 2840 fps, .790 MOA 100 yards)

Get the M mag and a long action bolt stop or modify yours. I had a L mag lying around and used it instead of buying another. Seat the bullet out further. At 47.5 grains in my CTR, I still didn't have any pressure signs of any kind, no swipe marks, primer issues and the bolt cycled just as it would with factory ammo. I did try up to 47g varget at 2.860" which is .010" off the lands, but I didn't shoot much. It was lasy summer and it was around 96* and I had enough of the heat playing around.

At 47g, I do get a little crunch in my T3 lite, but it shoots so damn good. I'm not gonna mess with it. The CTR on the other hand I'd like to squeeze every drop out of it. As BSA mentioned, other powders could allow you to not be confined to compressed loads. I tried TAC also but didn't experiment as much as I did with Varget because I didn't have a lot of it. I had 4 lbs of Varget so that was the powder of choice when testing. I've also heard CFE-223 will get you some velocities also, but also heard it temp sensitive to almost 100 fps from cold to hot. I haven't personally confirmed that, just what I have read.

The only thing I'd correct in your post is the "get the M mag". His Tikka rifle should already have the M mag. The mag he needs is the M+. That will allow for about 2.96" OAL, which is far more than anything I've ever needed in my Tikka 308's.

As for CFE 223 powder, it is great in a 308win. I would not worry about the temp stability, if you are sitting in a good solid node. Again, the only way you are going to know, is by shooting the rifle and knowing where the node is. If you shoot well enough, you can see it on the targets, while working up loads with varying charge weights. It will be like a sine wave, that is pretty easy to read, if you can see that type of thing.. YMMV

Ive shown this before, but just to show a reference of how CFE223 works in one of my 308's. Sorry it's not a 155 Scenar, but a 175 SMK:

Load developed in cold weather:


Load re-tested in hot weather:


Also, like I said earlier, a good stable load will also shoot consistently at range. This load was also tested at 400 yards, as I generally test all of my loads:


At 44 degrees^^^ And since this thread is about concentricity, those loads are all sub .003" TIR. Loaded on an old RCBS Rockchucker press, using RCBS dies that I bought at Walmart.

So, don't let temp stability scare you off with this powder. I've seen some that were a whole lot worse.



I like how you explain how to do this. It's a simple way to find your lands, and doesn't cost a damn thing. No special tools etc. etc. The only thing I'd add: Always be sure to soot the bullet, when using this technique. That way, if the lands grab the bullet, and pull it a little (that happens a lot more than you think), you have a reference mark. Slide that bullet to the witness line, and that is where your lands are, or your max oal where the bullet is kissing/touching the lands. Make note of that in a booklet, and try varying seating depths, if you so desire. I generally just use .020" off the lands for hunting loads and then find OCW. You do that by shooting groups, and let the rifle and load tell you what it likes. It's a very simple method, and usually doesn't waste a lot of components.

BSA, my mistake, your correct about the M+ mag.

Also, when checking the lands as I did initially, it was exactly the same as when I checked with the Hornady tool. So if your doing it on the cheap, that bent brass trick does work.

Hell yes it does. Been doing it that way for almost 30 years not.

Just be sure to soot the bullet. Hopefully that made sense in my last post:



You can see in this pic, what I was talking about. The lands grabbed the bullet, just a little and pulled it out a hair. Slide the bullet back to the witness mark, and then measure. Do this a few times, with a few different bullets. No need for spending extra money on a comparator. It's pretty easy to find the lands on every rifle I own. Guys seem to like to complicate things and suggest you go out and buy every gadget available. Most of those are unnecessary. Knowing where your lands are, is not..

One thing I suggest buying is a concentricity gauge. Those are needed for checking runout. You can also do this on the cheap, if you already have a set of v-blocks and a dial indicator. But how many people have those? I do, but a lot of guys don't.

I make a dummy round for length to the lands this way: With a resized case,seat the bullet your going to use,then pull the bullet and reseat back into the case three times.then seat the bullet long and chamber the dummy round in your rifle.The neck should be stretched enough that you can chamber with a little resistance when the bullet reaches the lands,but it should be tight enough that it will hold the bullet in place when you eject the round.I'll save the dummy round as a reference and write the OAL,comparator length and bullet type.When I get ready to set up the seater die,I'll back the seater screw out a little,put the round in the die in the seat position and screw the seater down until it touches the bullet.That will get me to the max length when I start seating my bullets then I can then start making the final adjustments by screwing the seater in until I get to the desired seating depth like say .030 off the lands.Then you can make another dummy round if that is your desired length,write the info on that case and save it for easy quick die set up.So you will have one dummy round at length to the lands and one dummy round at the length for your load you've developed for your rifle.Store them away in a plastic bag or whatever you choose for future references.

If your RCBS dies and methods are so good why do you need a concentricity guage?

Without a guage you will never know your having issues or what's causing it.I've learned brass that has very little runout can have increased runout seating bullets after it starts to get harder.Annealing that same brass,helps a lot in reducing runout.Another thing I learned is,a compressed load may or may not cause runout,it depends sometimes on how much the load is compressed and probably the brass hardness may be a factor too.How bad does runout have to be before it has a real affect on accuracy?Close range it's not that noticable but the longer the distance the more it will be a factor. .008-.010 runout is about where I being to notice the affect on accuracy inside 200yds.Since I started paying more attention to runout,I rarely see anything over .004 runout.

I dont anneal my LR hunting rifle brass or haven't measured runout on cases or loaded ammo in probably 10-12 years and I can tell you i get great accuracy to 700 yards on plenty of rifles. Good brass, Good dies set up properly and inline seating dies and you can throw the concentricity gauge in the garbage.
Good methods and equipment show up on target.

Just a follow up, thus far. I loaded 7 rounds using a drop tube, and in line die. Run out was .001-.003. I shot these at 100yds and had a very tight group, except for one, which was pilot error. 4 of the 6 were 1 ragged hole,with 2 others nearly touching. I'm going to 500 tomorrow. The next thing I tried and will test tomorrow, is 5 rounds with a rcbs sizing die, and 5 rounds with a Redding bushing die. The rcbs die is showing slightly more run out, but not much. It will be interesting to see if there is much of a difference at longer range.

For sure

What I’ve done a few times is secure a flat piece of masonite or something similar over the case mouths and secure it with rubber bands to cover the case mouths. Then set it on top of the clothes dryer and run it through a cycle. You can also seat your bullets just enough to keep them in place and run the dryer. Then seat your bullets. Works like a champ.

When I'm comparing 2 different setups, I prefer to compare groups of 20 shots and to focus on mean radius, not group size.

For my target rifles, I shoot these groups at match pace to simulate course of fire.

For my hunting rifle, I shoot a sequence of 3 shots and aggregate the targets to get a combined target of 20 shots or more.

I use a smart phone group analyzer app that makes it easy to take a picture of the target and input the impacts. The app then analyzes the group, including calculating the mean radius. It's very fast and easy to do.

The thing about mean radius compared to simple group size is that it tends to be predictive with fewer shots than group size.

Which is to say, I personally no longer compare 2 different set ups based on a small number of 3 or 5 shot groups, even when averaging the results. Better to aggregate to get a single larger data set.

As droppoint noted, I would suspect that you're seeing statistical noise.