Took my new .358 Ruger all weather out to the range today. I had purchased 50 Winchester .358 cases from Midway which I ran over the neck sizing die and proceded to load from 43 up thru 51 grains of TAC behind a 200 grain hornady with a CCI LR Magnum primer. I also bought a box of Wisconsin Cartidge Corporation .358W loads with a 200 grain roundnose (RNSPCL). I got the rifle on paper with the loaded rounds and then backed off to 100. Pulled the trigger on the first reload "click", this happened for the rest of what I had loaded up, "click". The primers were deeply indented but the indentation seemed off center. I then tried each cartridge multiple times, and I was able to get most of them to fire eventually. I then shot 5 more of the store bought rounds, but even thought they fired every time as expected these had primer indentation that seemed off center. Got a couple of good groups anyway with TAC, great way to tell if your flinching when the gun does not go off everytime!! Back at the ranch I took 3 peices of new brass out of the bag, primed it without putting into the resizeing die then taking the bolt out of the gun hung the brass under the extractor. Pushing the empty brass home, and fireing I got "click", I tried this again with 3 times with CCI LR magnum, then WW LR Magnum primers none fired all had light primer strikes. I then tried it with a federal 210 primer in the new brass and it fired. When I extracted it the primer was 0.02 inches protruding above the back of the case. I did this 3 more times, each time the fed210 on fireng backed out very close to 0.02 inches, I then reprimed some of the fired brass with CCI LR Magnum primers and it fired. The fired brass was 2.08 to 2.19 in length the unfired brass is 2.04 in lenght. Any thoughts, is the gun a lemon or is the brass from Wincheser incorrect? Never had this happen before, the off center primers strikes worry me now.

If I had to worry about off Center Primer Strikes in My Hunting Rifles. I guess that I wouldn't have many left. My 98 Mauser does this, but can still bring it in under 2". If I had more "Bull" in Me, I'd tell You that I have to cant the Rifle to collomnate with the Strike, to get a better group.

My guess - the protruding primer is demonstrating the problem. Backed-out primers mean excess headspace, and if it really is 0.02" that is way too much. The fact that the fired cases did not have the problem leads me to believe that they were driven back against the breach (stretching the case walls along the way). The cases now fit the chamber and the firing pin can reach the primers more easily. Unfired cases put the primer too far away from the firing pin for reliable ignition.

What is the cause of the problem? The brass may be too short in the head/shoulder dimension, or the rifle's chamber may be drilled too deep. Since even the factory loads showed a light primer hit, I'd put my money on the rifle chamber. An off center firing pin is not uncommon and seldom causes ignition problems.


.

Did you full-length size the new brass? If so, you may have bumped the choulder back a bit, depending on what shellholder you're using and how well it matches up to the dies you're using. Try just neck-sizing the new brass, adn see if that helps.

I'm curious why you're using magnum primers. Not enough powder in a .358 case to need a magnum igniter, I don't think. WLR standards should do just fine.

Dennis

I think jimmy is duplicating mule deer's loads per Handloader. TAC is a "ball" powder, and Ramshot data uses mag primers for the 338 Federal. No listed loads for the .358 Win yet. I don't think the mag primers are hurting anything, and I plan on using the same.

Yep, sounds like cartridge headspace issues IF you FL resized the new brass. If not, it may be chamber headspace issues that Ruger will have to correct with a new rifle.

I have the Hawkeye stainless and have had no problems with mine. I reload also and use mag primers with 748 & H335. My local gun shop sold a wood/blue Hawkeye with the same problems that you have. They sent it back to Ruger and they replaced the firing pin.

Ken

The new brass was run thru the sizing die before I shot today, it took 2-3 attempts to get the rifle to fire. I did get one 1.4 inch group despite all of this... To check and see if this was the problem, at my bench I primed 3 brand new pieces of brass out of the bag without sizing them. These did not fire. All went "click" and all exhibited a light primer strike.
The Wisconsin Cartridge corporation loads all fired today at the range. New unsized brass with federal 210 fired but backed out the primer by 0.02, fired brass that was FL resized and primed fired, 3 resized 308 brass that was primed, fired as well! Could it be a chitt run of brass? Is there some kind of a guage you can buy to see if the headspace is too much?

damn I hate having to worry about this in a brand new rifle!

Have you measured the difference in head to shoulder distance between unfired and fired brass?

Chamber wise you could get a no-go gauge.

Buy a set of go/no go gages. They will be the same for 243, 260, 7-08, 308, 338-08, and 358. They're cheap and you'll need them again someday. Or just go to the gunsmith and have him check.

Its probably the brass. Did the factory ammo leave protruding primers?
Three solutions;
-send back the brass, buy new.
-neck up the brass to .366 or .375, then run it through your 358 die backed off, a little at a time until it chambers with a little crush. Load and shoot. Don't set back the shoulder too much when you reload this.
-Load brass as is, wih bullets jammed into the lands. This will fireform the brass without stretching near the head.

The RCBS precision mic set can help you determine if your brass matches your chamber, but you need fireformed brass without protruding primers.

All good info above, another option, neck up, create a false shoulder on a couple pieces of brass. Then neck size it back to .358, but do it little at time testing bolt closer each time. When you get some resistance, and bolt closes, prime that brass, and test fire then... This will give you a mark on the neck to measure. If it goes off, repeat above, and load one up live, test fire, measure case. Another way would be to build a light load, let the bullet engage into the rifeling, and fire form some brass. Either one of these options will give you some true cases to measure.

The bullet jammed in rifling creates a better case than the false neck, some times the fireing pin drives that shoulder forward, and the brass is not as strong as the spring slamming the pin�.

Good luck,
Hope it is not the chamber, would hate to see Ruger making long chambers..


Later...

Does the rim fit loosely behind the extractor claw? Could rims be thin on that brass? Some controlled round guns hold the case firmly against the bolt face, others seem loose enough to let the pin strike move the case forward.

More on this latter as I have resized 10 308 brass, and reloaded with 49grains of TAC+CCILRM primers. If they all shoot reliably I am going to call Midway and tell them I want my money back on the .358 brass. Tell you what though it sure is a lesson in how sensitive Federal primers are!!!

Make sure the datum line on the shoulder is the same to compare apples to apples.

is there an easy way to do this? The calipers seem to be "guesstimates" as there is no hard easy line to read.

Do you have an empty piece of 40 S&W brass hanging around? It's all you need to use with your calipers to compare head-shoulder distances on 308 class cartridge cases.

Many of the Limited Edition Ruger M-77 Mk II in 35 Whelens used to do that. A lot of guys sent them back to Ruger, who fiddled with them and sent them back without solving the problem. In some cases, the rifle would make several trips back and never get properly sorted out. Ruger rebarreled/replaced a bunch of them, but I read about more than a few guys who were without their rifles for a year or more.

I took mine to Jim Cloward, a fairly well-known riflemaker. He felt the problem was a weak firing pin spring. He told me he had fixed the same problem in other Ruger M-77 Mk II's with a Wolff extra-strength spring.

The spring and a trigger job cost less than $40, and my rifle ran perfectly after that.


Okie John

Okie John, I would agree with you except that the federal primers backed out 0.02 when I fired new unsized, primed but notloaded with powder or bullet, WW brass in the gun.

Mathman, I can get a .40S&W tomorow, how do I use it? Thanks.

If it's a new rifle I'd take it to a gunsmith to have him check the headspace or call ruger directly and tell them what's up.

I would also check a piece of fired brass to see how long the should was but you'd need a guage.

Spot

You'll want a 40 case whose mouth is round and smooth. A sized and deprimed one is best, but not strictly necessary. Just put the mouth of the 40 case over the neck of the rifle case and measure the whole thing head-to-head.

You can compare the brass before and after firing, different lots of new brass, fired brass from different intensity loads or different chambers and you can measure how far you're bumping back the shoulder of the rifle case when you resize it.

You want to keep using the same piece of 40 brass so you don't have calibration issues so to speak.

mathman

Mathman great thank you for the tip, I have a 10mm, so I used a 10mm case. The new .358 brass from WW + 10mm case head to head is 2.604! Resized 308 brass that was not fired, once fired .358 brass (note this took multiple attempts to fire), Fired .358 brass which had been manufactured from .308 brass, fired .358 brass that had been resized all with head to head 10mm shell is 2.610 or .06 inch difference. The 10mm shell is .977 inches in length. I guess the 0.06 inch is enough to make a difference?

I have had more than my fair share of �clicks� with a Whelen and a .358 Win that were put up on Ruger actions. If you determine that the head spacing for your rifle is within specifications, do as Okie John suggested and change the firing pin spring out. I went to what I was told by my gunsmith were 22 lbs springs in my Whelen and .358 Win and the clicking problem has gone away. CP.

A used R77 misfired quite often. The pin hit in the middle of the primer and the headspace is tight. The problem was that the firing pin did not extend far enough and so the dent was very shallow.

With that design its easy just to turn some metal off of the front shoulder on the firing pin. It does not throw anything else off.

I think .060" is a ton!

2.610" - .977" = 1.633"

I just checked a piece of 308 brass fired in my LVSF that was FL sized so the bolt closes with just a little feel, and when I subtract my "40 gauge" length I get 1.631". This is so close that I might get 1.633" on my brass using your 10mm case.

I believe the shoulders of your new 358 brass are too far back.

Like I mentioned before this cheapie system is good for setting up sizing dies.

mathman

I hate Winchester 358 brass. I had problems with necks being too thin to hold bullets and misfires. I have had no problems with once fired 308 brass necked up, Federal and Remington.

I have loaded 15 more rounds. 10 in resized .308 brass, 5 in .358 brass that I managed to fire after multiple hits, resized, reprimed and reloaded. If I get a nice day on Monday we will see if they all go bang. If they all go bang I will call midway and tell them what I think of the WW brass, not that it will do any good...

I may change out the spring as well, is it easy to do? Where do you get one? Does it increase the trigger pull?

Jimmy you can get a Wolff spring from Brownells.They usually come in two strengths ie. 22-24-26 lbs etc.Get the lighter one in strength as the strongest one has given erratic ignition on several rifles I've used.The strongest is usually very powerful but usually not as consistent as the lighter one.The lighter one will still be significantly stronger than the factory spring which will be identified in ( ).It may change your trigger pull slightly but not much.The one for the 77 is on page 159 #969-640-024.The one for the MK II is on page 160 #969-000-098.If you're having troubles w/misfires this is the first and cheapest place to look.Even if your new brass is a little undersized the new spring will more than likely make all of them go bang.Then just make sure you don't set the shoulder back any!Smoke a fired case over a candle and resize it till it takes the first hint of sut off the shoulder and lock you're die down.You'll be good to go from then on.I like WW cases and do not like to form from the 308...YMMV.Hope this helps...it really is just a weak spring in all liklihood.

*I do not think it that unusual for a fired primer to back out of an empty case.All primers back out some until pressure builds to keep them tight against the boltface or reset them into the primer pocket.Now Jimmy's may be more than normal but before I started crying wulf and looking under the bed for the boogeyman...I'd just install a new spring for less than $10 and go from there.The brass is probably a little undersize and that coupled w/a weak spring is just not gettin the job done.
powdr

Jimmy, personaly, I would fit that brass to your chamber, and get Midway gives you some FREE brass. Then your going to have enough correct stamped brass for a little while..

Take the bolt apart, and make sure the fireing pin moves freely. No grease, clean and light oil, reassemble and test.


Later...

Sounds like a headspace problem as others have said.

Based on what you presented, I think you probably have a weak spring in combination with several other things. I think this because you are have the trouble with magnum primers - primers which are known to have thicker and/or harder cups oftentimes. That being the case, if a spring is weak they can cause problems.

It is also possible that your chamber is slightly oversize, the lot of brass you got could be slightly small, and your firing pin might be just a tad short.

I will say this in defense of brass and chambers though, as a handloader who shoots a 358 (built on a Rem action), I use Lake City (308) brass almost exclusively. I don't recall ever having problems with ignition with any primer. Certainly it isn't a problem with the cartridge itself. Since you handload, adjusting for the chamber/brass dimensions is relatively simply if other mechanical conditions are being met.

with Mathman's help we found that the shoulder on the brand new unsized brass was 0.06 inches further back than that of fired brass, and resized .308 brass. It is more than likely a combination of poor brass, weak spring, slightly longer chamber and CCI magnum primers. What I don't know is if the model 77 spring will work in a new hawkeye? I would not want to call Ruger as they will tell me something stupid like "don't do that, send it to us for a few months and let us do nothing with it"...
Are the Hawkeye bolts and 77 bolts the same? Where can I find directions for takeing them apart and replacing the spring.

I'm with powdr, primers will back out on an uncharged case with no powder due to the fact that when fired the powder charge resets the primer as it is pushed back against the bolt face. Had a friend that had rounds that wouldn't fire and it ended up being a dirty (inside) bolt body impeding the firing pin strike. Once cleaned it worked fine. Comparing apples to oranges here but, you want to see primer back out fire some, just primed cases in a revolver. Had a friend do this and the cylinder got where it wouldn't turn without effort. Just my 2 cents worth.

Don't over react on the spring issue. Just make some brass for the rifle now from 30-06's so as to set the shoulder to fit the chamber.

Meanwhile buy a no go gage. I just use a no go gages for the various chambers with shims to do what a field gage does and more. If your not comfortable with making coupons and dropping it on the back of the no go gage then buy a field gage too. If your buying all that get a go gage also.

Leave the spring alone. Check the firing pin protrusion now however. Just let the firing pin down with the bolt out of the rifle.

This might not be related, but I have read that the .358 shoulder is so small that the case is not supported very well in the chamber at the shoulder area. I have also read that this is one reason the cartridge did not become more popular.

What I think is happening is that the strike from the firing pin is driving the case forward, cushening and softening the amount of force hitting the primer.

You said that you run the unfired cases through the neck sizer.

Take a few more unsized cases and neck size them, but leave the base of the die unscrewed about 1/2 to 1 turn. This way, you won't size all the way to the shoulder, changing it's dimension or moving it back.

Do the same thing with cases that you successfully fired, that is, neck size, but not all the way to the shoulder. Fired cases are fireformed to fit your chamber, so headspace should no longer enter into it.

If you experience misfires with cartridges prepared in this manner, then the problem is probably with either firing pin protrusion or a weak spring.

"When I extracted it the primer was 0.02 inches protruding above the back of the case."

The extractor was the only think holding the case. The force from the primer explosion drove the case forward and the primer backward against the bolt face. Protruding primers is normal for primed cases fired in this manner.

There is an old Gun Digest where a retired gun writer wrote that if a .358 cartridge were to be dropped in the snow and then chambered it may not fire for the reason that you gave. That the shoulder is small.

I think that the .358's shoulder is adequate and in fact its larger than the .35 Remington for instance.

That gun writer is a Connecticut resident and I had a date to go chuck hunting with him but it never came off. I still can't recall his name. He worked for Winchester then.

It was Ed Matunas who was also the one who came up with the OGW formula!

All I know is if I had this gun I'd call Brownells and ask them if either of their springs were available and for $20 I could find out in two days whether a new spring would help.I'd order both springs and send the one I didn't use back or put it in my parts box.With deer season right around the corner I would definitely not send it back to Ruger at this time.While I had the bolt broken down I would give it a good cleaning before replacing the spring.This is such a problem w/new and very old guns that it is almost a no brainer. powdr

If you screw with it Ruger may not fix it.

Spot

"This might not be related, but I have read that the .358 shoulder is so small that the case is not supported very well in the chamber at the shoulder area. I have also read that this is one reason the cartridge did not become more popular."

Pure horsepucky! I have five rifles in .358 and absolutely no problems with headspacing or shoulders. FWIW, two are tang safety Rugers.

I also have a tang safety Ruger in .35 Whelen that does the exact same thing as your .358. I think you have a bad chamber, period. Have a gunsmith check the headspacing and if it's bad, send it back to Ruger for repair with a copy of the gunsmith's statement. They'll fix it for you and you'll have a better gun to boot. I ran into a similar problen with a Ruger #1. it had a two plus inch throat and the gunsmith's chamber cast and written report allowed Ruger to square the gun away, Now it's a tackdriver.
Paul B.

all, please note with mathman's technique I checked the NEW BRASS and the shoulder was 0.06 further back than fired brass or resized 308 brass. The fired brass's shoulder was exactly equal to that of the resized 308 brass's shoulder. I am going to shoot it again this week if I can, if it misfires with the proper sized brass I will take it to a gun smith!

Check the headspace please! You don't want a new rifle where the headspace is way off and only sized brass works. That is just a new production rifle and not some collectors item. Send it back.

Also if the firing pin strike is off center send it back.

1234567,

Perhaps you mixed up your information? It wasn't the 358 that had gun scribes talking about the small shoulder it was the 400 Whelen.

Some 400 Whelens had issues. I just read the best information on that from an older Precision Shooting Magazine. It was true for SOME of the 400 Whelens. The information came from Feb 2001. Author Michael Petrov. To sumarize: the author traced the original chamber dimensions for the 400 which was unique of all the other whelens. The 25, 35, and 38 all had shoulder diameter of .441". The original 400 was .458". When and how this information got lost to modern riflmen and writers he had no idea. The author found all the problems with not enough shoulder with the 400 whelen tracable to the wrong shoulder diameter.

A quote from Elmer Keith's book Big Game Rifles, 1935. "I have used this rifle over a period of eleven years and have a lot of respect for it". "Much criticism has been passed on this rifle and cartridge, some claiming that the front shoulder of the case was insufficient to hold its headspace against the blow of the firing pin. Such is not the case, and that forward shoulder is ample in correctly chambered rifles and used with correctly necked cases."


So if the 400 whelen has enough shoulder (you should see what the case looks like) then there is NO WAY the 358 could possibly have a problem with its shoulder giving way due to the force of the firing pin.

Jimmy I can almost guarantee you the rifle is not going to fire w/unformed cases...period.Please let us know what happens. I feel for you brother! powdr

I still hesitate to think things are too bad - yet. If it fires factory ammo, there likely isn't a really serious problem. One batch of brass does not make a story. If magnum primers in handloads are giving trouble, but factory loaded isn't, I'd look at why that is. I still think there are probably a number of small factors playing a part. The firing pin is probably involved somehow though.

BTW, the 358 has a very adequate shoulder, a lot more than the reliable 9.3X62, 35 Whelen, 35 Remington, and a whole lot more than the military's dependable, yet simple, case mouth headspaced 45 ACP and 9 mm. My 358 is a semi-custom rifle, but the shoulder has never been an issue. FWIW.

.o6 is a lot actually. My Winchester brass started working fine after a couple of firings but my rifle still preferred reformed 308 brass which I used for all things serious like hunting. I also had a few misfires with factory ammo. My rifle a BLR was a very accurate rifle and cases lasted a long time.

AZShooter:

No, I didn't mix up my information. I have never owned a .358, and, as well as I can remember, I have never fired one.

The .35 Rem. has an even smaller shoulder than either the .358 or .35 Whelen, and the .35 Rem. seems to work okay.

But, I did read about the small shoulder on the .358 being a potential problem. I don't remember where I read it, and maybe the author didn't know what he was talking about.

It might be that the problem was with semi-autos, where the force of the bolt closing had a tendency to move the shoulder back, but I just don't remember. There was also something about why the cartridge never became more popular than it did, despite it's potential, and I think the shoulder was related to that issue, also. It might be that it was not popular in semi-autos because of that, but I just don't remember.

The issue with the .45 ACP headspacing on the case mouth is entirely different from headspacing on the shoulder, as the .358 does. I believe it was Mr. Howell that said that a .30-06 could be blown out to a straight wall cartridge, perhaps .45 caliber, and made to headspace on the case mouth, the same as the .45. ACP, and that it would work.

Any theories about a lack of shoulder being an issue in the 358 is ignorance of the same proportion that may have otherwise been an issue in easing the fine little cartridge toward an early demise. Alluding to such only furthers such idiocy. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 358 case that isn't also wrong to an even greater degree in other well reputed cartridges. Sloppy manufacture of barrels or cases should not impugn the cartridge itself.

BTW, sloppy manufacture of cases - ie, the poor placement of shoulders and so forth- could easily be overcome by the inclusion of a belt. Obviously, that would be a redundant remedy for what should be done right in the first place. Still, some irony, eh?

Hey ... if the 358Win has a shoulder problem, my 375/08 must have a really serious problem. I've never had misfires in either 358Win or 375/08 ... even when the 375/08 originally had over 10thou excess headspace. I almost exclusively use opened 308Win brass too.

If store bought ammunition works in the rifle, then I see no point sending it back to Ruger. The brass you received sounds to be out of spec ... either replace it or fireform it to your chamber and then be careful not to bump shoulders back during resizing.
Cheers...
Con

I called Redding because I use redding dies, the guy I spoke with could not find the headspace length for the case. It appears to be at least based on the Lee reloading handbook different from the 308. The headspace for the 308 is supposed to be 1.607, while the .358 is 1.634. Mathman's 40 cal comparator still works because I was comparing fired cases to unfired brand new brass and there was a .06" difference. If I had not had to move my daughter today, I would have shot the gun, tommorow afternoon I will!

do you load for your BLR pretty hot?

I worked up to the max loading of IMR 3031 listed in the IMR handbook using 200 grain round nosed corelokts. However the primers would crater a bit so I backed down 2 grains and started using CCI 250 primers to solve the problem. The cratering problem was due either to the BLR's floating firing oin or an oversized firing pin hole. I then worked up past listed max using 748 and Speer 250 grain bullets still using the CCI 250's and no problems surfaced. Other than recoil became a bit brisk for enjoyable bench work.

the ruger seems to be quite nice in the recoil department, and 51 grains of TAC behind a 200 grain Hornady has not given me any pressure signs. More today....

jimmy- are you using RN or SP Hornadys? Have you tried 250 grainers yet? As soon as I wrap things up with my .308 using TAC, I will start up with the .358 Win using it. TAC is like tiny glass beads.

I am using the SP's. Today I got 17 out of 18 to ignite on the first try. All the resized 308 brass fired the first time, one of the store bought shells did not ignite, most groups tonight were between 1.5 and two inches, so nothing to write home about, two shots with 51.5 grains of TAC went into one hole then the other landed 5 inches higher, this is still a puzzle but it looks like the resized 308 brass works well. Really poor groups tonight however, the 2 in one hole then 5 inch high I cannot figure unless I had a brain fart but there were two RP cases and one WW case, can't see that this would result in such a drastic shift in POI. Still way off center primer strikes, I think I am going to send it back to them....My kimber 45 auto with laser grips shot well however put 5 bullets in about the same hole at 15 yards...you pays your nickle and takes your chances...would you believe it a Ruger that is worse than a Kimber...unbelievable...good thing I have more rifles to hunt with, then maybe I will just send it down the road and get a Kimber custom classic in .338, it has more of a shoulder to work with than the .358!

Give in to the urge.

A couple random thoughts...

NEW Winchester .308 brass, resized, has worked better for me than new Winchester .358 brass. I get 12, 15 reloads from it and toss it for the "bright line of doom", not cracked necks.

I don't mess with annealing, and so once-fired .308 brass tends to split the necks pretty quickly after I resize it. 4 or 5 reloads.

The only shoulder problem I have had with .358, is crushing or deforming it when loading highly compressed loads. Or when trying to seat 140-gn pistol bullets, which don't agree with my die seater very well.

Sorry it's not working for you, Jimmy! Did you try the RL7? What kind of speeds was that TAC showing you?

338 Federal, the one point I see is more shoulder, so you are right in this regard, the second is that the 338 federal is chambered in a lighter rifle the kimber, the third is that I seem to have no luck with any Ruger, but I am going to give them a chance to fix the off center fireing pin strikes and check the headspace. It turns out the headspace for a 308 and 358 are different. Quite frankly I was surprised last night when a factory cartridge did not fire, I am going to send them some of the fired brass so that they can see how far off center the fireing pin is hitting. This MAY be the biggest problem, on the other hand I have never had brand new unfired brass fail to fire.

Have you checked the concentricity of your reloads? Could be the cause of the flyer.
I agree, send it back to Ruger. The sooner the better. Who wants to dick around with a brand new rifle other than just tweaking it for accuracy.

UPS is picking it up today, not a bad service! I told them in the letter that I wanted a new barrel with a proper length chamber and a new bolt with a properly centered fireing pin. We will see what happens!

I wonder if they will have better service than Berretta?

An oversized chamber will provide off center fire pin marks.

Be prepared to tangle with Ruger, I sent back a Redhawk once, for some issues. Got back a mangled,(vice markes) binding mess (cylinder would not turn all the way). Sent it back, told them to replace it, and a new Redhawk was on the door stoop a day later... I atleast liked that part...



Hope all works out with the rifle.

[quote=jimmypgeorgia] It turns out the headspace for a 308 and 358 are different. [/javascript:void(0);
File Managerquote]

The headspace for the 358, 308, 7mm-08, 260 and the 243 are the same. Perhaps the new 338-08 is the same also.

I have both the chamber and cartridge drawings for the 308 and the 358 and indeed they have some of the same dimensions. There is a different datum point for the 358 due to its short shoulder so its measured at a point closer to the shoulder/body point but only due to the fact that the short shoulder will not allow the same datum as the 308. To the shoulder they are the same.

Here is the headspace data from Clymer.

Gauge Name // Also Used With These Calibers
308 Win // 243 Win, 7MM/08, 358 Win, 260 Rem

http://www.clymertool.com/headspac/index.html

You don't need to turn a 308 into a 243 to get adequate shoulder, neither do you need to turn a 358 into a 308 (or 338) to get adequate shoulder. My 358 has seen very few cases stamped "358" -less than a full bag actually, but it has fired thousands of rounds of reformed 308. I can positively say there is nothing wrong with the shoulder as designed. Like even a 243 however, there could be a problem that involves headspace. I hope Ruger comes up with a solution that satisfies you.

I'm reading some major discrepancies in these posts if I'm reading right...If you are measuring 60 thousands shoulder difference that means your chamber is cut 0.060" TOO DEEP. No wonder your firing pin won't do the job. Most firing pins have around 0.060" protrusion. Then you said that a new case and a fired resized case measured the same. To me that means your sizing die\is not adjusted to fit your chamber...NOT what the die makers tell you to do when setting up dies...what they are saying is for a perfectly cut chamber and I haven't seem one of those in a factory rifle in many years.

I just measured several of my 308 based cases and they all measured to 1.615" +/- 0.002" sized using a Stoney comparator with a 0.400 dia hole, the #400 gauge. The shoulder point for all the 308 based cases us 1.56". If your measurements are much outside that number you need to take a good look at what you are doing BEFORE sending off your rifle. You can use ANY reference gauge as long as you subtract the gauge OAL from the OAL of the gauge/case measurement. I've used 1" long x 1" dia pieces of cold rolled steel with 3/8" drilled hole, 7/16" drilled hole and 1/2" drilled hole for many years as headspace gauges for just about all calibers that would fit inside it...before I bought my Stoney setups.

Even having an excess headspace isn't much of a problem as long as you adjust your sizing dies to compensate for the extra chamber length. My 356 Win, the same case basically as a 358 W, measures 1.658" or 0.043" deeper than "perfect" so I just adjusted my sizing die to give me a 1.655" resize at the shoulder and haven't had any problems with misfires...and almost all brass is made to SAMMI minimum specs or less.

You also may have a firing pin spring problems, garbage in the firing pin hole or it needs to be lubed or cleaned...did you unscrew the firing pin, clean and relube and check for shiny spots on the firing pin spring cause by a rough interior? I've had many a Ruger that needed a complete tune-up before it would shoot worth a da**, and that included honing out the firing pin bore to knock down the rough spots and a Wolff spring to smooth up the ignition process.

Also an off center pin hit doesn't mean much unless you are talking about at least one pin diameter away from center...THEN I would sent it back because the bore of the bolt was drilled off center and may be part of the problem.

Last, but not least...measure 3 factory rounds for headspace, then fire them and measure them again. That will give you the probable headspace of your rifle. Resize ONE as you have the sizer set up and measure again...if there is more than about 0.010" difference you need to adjust your dies. Take the second case...back off the sizer die at least 1 1/2 turns then resize the case and measure it. Turn the sizer down a quarter turn and size/measure...continue the process until you get no more than about 0.003" shoulder set back then lock the sizer ring. Measure again and THAT is your actual headspace. Keep the 3rd case as a master gauge.

It this measurement is more than about 0.025" beyond the actual 358 W SAMMI minimum headspace reference the you might think about sending it back in for a new barrel or chamber and specify a SAMMI minimum chamber.

One sure way to find the actual headspace of your rifle and probably the quickest and easiest is to expand a case neck up to .375 or so, then start sizing it down until the bolt close firmly on the case...THEN measure the headspace...there won't be any question as to the actual headspace of YOUR rifle...as been suggested already...I do this as a matter of course with any FACTORY rifle I buy if I get strange measurements from the first factory loaded round fired in the rifle.

The same headspace gauge can be used for all the 308 based cartridges as has been stated already...there has never been any problem with the shoulder on a 358 or any of the 308 based cartridges and the BS about the 400 Whelen is just that...BS...anyone who has done any chamber work or worked with any cylindrical object or actually had a 400 Whelen understands just how much BS is involved. That is one BIG problem with forums in general...KRAP KEEPS GETTING SPREAD AROUND..we men are worse than a bunch of old lady's at a Koffee Klatch sitting around talking about how short their old mens "things" are.

The 358 Win is an excellent cartridge and for the most part the Ruger is an excellet rifle...but as with any factory made item in this day and age...they all need work before they work best.

'Njoy

Actually, if I understood what he reported about the results of the "custom 10mm gauge" measurements he took compared with the "40 gauge" measurements I took, his 358 chamber is within a couple of thousanths of my 308 and it's his new unfired 358 brass that's .060" too short at the shoulder.

I think you and mathman would agree. The drawing in the Lee reloading book latest edition clearly lables the headspace and gives two different numbers they are 1.607 for the .358 and 1.634 for the .308. Here is what I like so far, a nice young woman from UPS picked my rifle up and actually had a bit of a discussion about rifles and headspace with me so Ruger has held up that end of the deal. I put a letter in the box with fired and unfired cases, details of my measurements, details of how it did not fire and when, and then telling them I wanted a new barrel and a new bolt, we will see what becomes of that. If they mangle it up and send it back to me or it does not work properly on return, so be it I will just send it back to them again until they get it right. So far I was very happy with the UPS pick up they promised!!

From the head to a point on the shoulder at the same circumference? Maybe I am seeing this wrong if that's the case.

OK
Modern Reloading Second Edition Richard Lee
Page 585 .358 Winchester Headspace = 1.607 diameter .420
Page 424 .308 Winchester Headspace = 1.634 diameter .400

Lee clearly labels the numbers 1.607 and 1.634 as headspace on these pages.

I can't seem to find a 358 drawing. What's the shoulder angle?

Mathman, I was going along with the idea that it was short factory brass but one of the store bought cartridges went click in my last range session. I sent the gun back. If they return it and tell me it is fine I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

-New Unfired .358 Brass with 10mm guage = 1.623" average for 10

-Once Fired .358 Brass in new Ruger Hawkeye (multiple strikes, black primers, evidence of gas leaks at edge of primer) with 10mm gauge = 1.676 average for 10 (way off center primer strikes)

- .308 brass fired in a 1966 Winchester Model 88 measured with 10 mm gauge = 1.628 inches average for 10

Lee Manual 1.607 at .420 diameter for .358
Lee Manual 1.634 at .400 diameter for .308

The 10 mm guage measures both the .358 and .308 brass at the same datum point. By comparison the Fired 358 brass is 0.048 inches longer than brass fired in a 42 year old Model 88. Secondly if a 42 year old .308 was producing a fired case that was shorter with the 10mm gauge than the Lee Manual number by 0.006 and a brand new out of the box Ruger was producing fired brass at 0.07 longer than the Lee Manual number using the 10mm guage along with a serious offset primer strike, it was just a bad chamber on the rifle. You guys can complain about Kimber's all you want but I think its a Karma thing, my 300WSM Kimber Classic shot 1.5 inch groups out of the box with cheap Federal ammo. This is the second bolt action Ruger I have bought in 30 years, the first tang safety gun I bought at Sportsmans Warehouse in Reno Nevada in 1978 with a wonderful figured walnut stock but was a 30-06 scattergun. Unlike a democrat however I have an open mind, lets see what Ruger does...

Let us assume for a moment that both data points apply to the same shoulder. On one side of the case the shoulder slopes down by .020/2 = .010" over a distance of 1.634 - 1.607 = .027".

Setting up the appropriate right triangle with .01 being opposite and .027 being adjacent to the unknown angle theta, we have

theta = arctan(.01/.027) = 20.32 degrees

So it appears that starting from its specified headspace point the 308 case would slope outward along its 20 degree shoulder in a way that would match the specified headspace point for the 358.



edit: I hadn't seen your latest post when I wrote this. I was trying to see if they could be compared with a common datum, and it appears to be so.

Mathman are you in agreement with me that the chamber is perhaps a bit long?

mm, it's 20 degrees. It goes from .454" on the body to .388 on the neck.
Looks like the shoulder length is .09".

Neck length is .365" head to begining of shoulder is 1.560" Head to mouth is 2.015" 2.015-(1.560 + .365)

OK, now my head hurts.

mm, WTF. Do I have to call my retired professor who specialized in the philosophy of mathematics to explain to me what you just said?

I'm not real sure. The comparison of our brass, other than new from bag 358s, via our "custom gauges" indicates that your otherwise formed 358 and 308 brass comes out within a couple of thousanths of my barely shoulder bumped 308 brass when measured at about the .400" diameter point. My reverse trigoneering indicates a 20 degree shoulder measured at the 308 spot slopes right back to the 358 dimension.

I've got to reread the prior posts.

math, I added a couple more measurements to my post above on the 20 degree angle.

.308 specs:
20 degree angle on the shoulder. Head to begining of shoulder: 1.560" Head to mouth: 2.015" Neck length: .301"
Shoulder length must then be .889" (same as the .308)

I'm afraid that this has become one of those situations where we need to be in the same room with the brass and tools and a pad of paper.

Please do me a favor. Get one of the successfully fired but not sized pieces of 358 brass and gauge it. Also remeasure your gauge case length and post those figures. I'll be out in my shop for a few minutes double checking some figures on my brass.

Thanks.

For what's it's worth, 1x fired brass in my .358 gives me a cartridge headspace of 1.621" using a .400 hole with my head & shoulders guage.

Thanks, that's about .01" shorter than several factory 308s I work with.

2x fired brass grows the cartridge headspace to 1.624"

This thread is getting almost nutz...WTF

The 243, 260, 7mm, 308 and 358 ALL HAVE THE EXACT SAME SHOULDER ANGLE...20�...THE EXACT SAME BASE TO SHOULDER LENGTH 1.56" AND USE THE EXACT SAME GO GAUGE. Where are all your heads???? This link is turning into some esoteric mind **** with all the un-needed math smoke-up-your-backside "stuff".

All you need to do is look in almost any reloading manual for the shoulder angle and any online reamer supplier for the headspace gauge. I mean DAMN...

And a little judicious use of a caliper measuring from the base to about the middle of the shoulder of the 358 case will give you the numbers of a fired case...then resized the same case and if it is way out of whack you will soon know it.

I thought I could get all nitpicky and make a pimple into a mountain, but this thread takes the prize...I can't compete at all.

Sakoluvr's numbers sound well within the normal parameters for his 358. I checked all muy 308 based calibers and they all ran 1.618 to 1.630 at 0.400".

Here we go...I finally dug out my Forster 243-358 headspace go gauge...it is marked 1.630". I measured 1.618" at the .400" point so the SAMMI datum point must be closer to the .420-.440 diameter. Maybe this information will settle some of the dust. Using your numbers from the first page 2.60" and change minus .977 gives 1.627"...pretty close to the go gauge, and if this is the case then there is something else going on with your rifle and sending it off was the best bet

NFG, Oh c'mon man. This is fun stuff.

I am ready to enroll in a rocket science course, or brain surgery. We all know you have to use the same headspace guage, we are just going around our ass to prove it. Like I said, fun stuff.

Yeah...right...not so much fun with all the confusion going on to any newbee trying to make heads or tails of the smoke and mirrors. Ibn dune dis stuff ny unto 50 yar and I was having trouble witda boollsheet. Next time we meet, let me make the drinks....I wonder what I can come up with that resembles what you asked for.

Hey, I resemble that remark. TFF

In all fairness, mathman has always given me and others great advice. He is always out to help, not BS.

No need to yell, when I asked about the shoulder angle I was away from my reference materials and I didn't want to assume.



I hate to tell you but a little basic trig ain't esoteric. I just needed to use it to start at one datum line and see if I could back into the other one with the information I had on hand.

had to go last night, the wife wanted to go to dinner.

Successfully fired after multiple strikes but not resized brass measured with the "custom" shoulder guage and then the exact length of the gauge subracted from the overall measurement consistently gives 1.676 inches. This again is using a fired 10mm cartridge and using a calculator to subtract its length to be sure my brain was not at fault. This messurement is consistent regardless of what the source of the brass is fired in the gun. So fired brass in the new Ruger measures 1.676 inches where the 10mm gauge hits the shoulder. Fired but not resized brass in the .308 measures 1.628 where the 10mm gauge hits the shoulder.

I hope the Ruger gunsmith that reads my two page letter has a reasonable education...

mathman, that is a stretch (1.676"). What did you come up with? That chamber sure seems to be oversize.

That's about .045" deeper than what my brass shows, sure seems like too much.

Let's see what they do or do not do.

Jimmy, I know the rifle is gone now, but did you look at the barrel stamp before you shipped it off? Are you sure it said, "358 Win." and not "358 Win. Imp" ?

Ah, but isn't a proper AI type chamber headspaced even tighter?

AI, perhaps. RI, I'm not sure follows the same rules. In theory any "improved" should fire factory ammo. Seems his does quite reliably.

Let's see what Ruger says and does! If they change the spring and send it back as "good to go" we will have a better understanding of what type of company they are or at the very least who they employ in their service dept. I will at that point send another letter but to someone higher up in their food chain like the CEO.