Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles New .358 Win puzzle!

Mathman great thank you for the tip, I have a 10mm, so I used a 10mm case. The new .358 brass from WW + 10mm case head to head is 2.604! Resized 308 brass that was not fired, once fired .358 brass (note this took multiple attempts to fire), Fired .358 brass which had been manufactured from .308 brass, fired .358 brass that had been resized all with head to head 10mm shell is 2.610 or .06 inch difference. The 10mm shell is .977 inches in length. I guess the 0.06 inch is enough to make a difference?

I have had more than my fair share of �clicks� with a Whelen and a .358 Win that were put up on Ruger actions. If you determine that the head spacing for your rifle is within specifications, do as Okie John suggested and change the firing pin spring out. I went to what I was told by my gunsmith were 22 lbs springs in my Whelen and .358 Win and the clicking problem has gone away. CP.

A used R77 misfired quite often. The pin hit in the middle of the primer and the headspace is tight. The problem was that the firing pin did not extend far enough and so the dent was very shallow.

With that design its easy just to turn some metal off of the front shoulder on the firing pin. It does not throw anything else off.

I think .060" is a ton!

2.610" - .977" = 1.633"

I just checked a piece of 308 brass fired in my LVSF that was FL sized so the bolt closes with just a little feel, and when I subtract my "40 gauge" length I get 1.631". This is so close that I might get 1.633" on my brass using your 10mm case.

I believe the shoulders of your new 358 brass are too far back.

Like I mentioned before this cheapie system is good for setting up sizing dies.

mathman

I hate Winchester 358 brass. I had problems with necks being too thin to hold bullets and misfires. I have had no problems with once fired 308 brass necked up, Federal and Remington.

I have loaded 15 more rounds. 10 in resized .308 brass, 5 in .358 brass that I managed to fire after multiple hits, resized, reprimed and reloaded. If I get a nice day on Monday we will see if they all go bang. If they all go bang I will call midway and tell them what I think of the WW brass, not that it will do any good...

I may change out the spring as well, is it easy to do? Where do you get one? Does it increase the trigger pull?

Jimmy you can get a Wolff spring from Brownells.They usually come in two strengths ie. 22-24-26 lbs etc.Get the lighter one in strength as the strongest one has given erratic ignition on several rifles I've used.The strongest is usually very powerful but usually not as consistent as the lighter one.The lighter one will still be significantly stronger than the factory spring which will be identified in ( ).It may change your trigger pull slightly but not much.The one for the 77 is on page 159 #969-640-024.The one for the MK II is on page 160 #969-000-098.If you're having troubles w/misfires this is the first and cheapest place to look.Even if your new brass is a little undersized the new spring will more than likely make all of them go bang.Then just make sure you don't set the shoulder back any!Smoke a fired case over a candle and resize it till it takes the first hint of sut off the shoulder and lock you're die down.You'll be good to go from then on.I like WW cases and do not like to form from the 308...YMMV.Hope this helps...it really is just a weak spring in all liklihood.

*I do not think it that unusual for a fired primer to back out of an empty case.All primers back out some until pressure builds to keep them tight against the boltface or reset them into the primer pocket.Now Jimmy's may be more than normal but before I started crying wulf and looking under the bed for the boogeyman...I'd just install a new spring for less than $10 and go from there.The brass is probably a little undersize and that coupled w/a weak spring is just not gettin the job done.
powdr

Jimmy, personaly, I would fit that brass to your chamber, and get Midway gives you some FREE brass. Then your going to have enough correct stamped brass for a little while..

Take the bolt apart, and make sure the fireing pin moves freely. No grease, clean and light oil, reassemble and test.


Later...

Sounds like a headspace problem as others have said.

Based on what you presented, I think you probably have a weak spring in combination with several other things. I think this because you are have the trouble with magnum primers - primers which are known to have thicker and/or harder cups oftentimes. That being the case, if a spring is weak they can cause problems.

It is also possible that your chamber is slightly oversize, the lot of brass you got could be slightly small, and your firing pin might be just a tad short.

I will say this in defense of brass and chambers though, as a handloader who shoots a 358 (built on a Rem action), I use Lake City (308) brass almost exclusively. I don't recall ever having problems with ignition with any primer. Certainly it isn't a problem with the cartridge itself. Since you handload, adjusting for the chamber/brass dimensions is relatively simply if other mechanical conditions are being met.

with Mathman's help we found that the shoulder on the brand new unsized brass was 0.06 inches further back than that of fired brass, and resized .308 brass. It is more than likely a combination of poor brass, weak spring, slightly longer chamber and CCI magnum primers. What I don't know is if the model 77 spring will work in a new hawkeye? I would not want to call Ruger as they will tell me something stupid like "don't do that, send it to us for a few months and let us do nothing with it"...
Are the Hawkeye bolts and 77 bolts the same? Where can I find directions for takeing them apart and replacing the spring.

I'm with powdr, primers will back out on an uncharged case with no powder due to the fact that when fired the powder charge resets the primer as it is pushed back against the bolt face. Had a friend that had rounds that wouldn't fire and it ended up being a dirty (inside) bolt body impeding the firing pin strike. Once cleaned it worked fine. Comparing apples to oranges here but, you want to see primer back out fire some, just primed cases in a revolver. Had a friend do this and the cylinder got where it wouldn't turn without effort. Just my 2 cents worth.

Don't over react on the spring issue. Just make some brass for the rifle now from 30-06's so as to set the shoulder to fit the chamber.

Meanwhile buy a no go gage. I just use a no go gages for the various chambers with shims to do what a field gage does and more. If your not comfortable with making coupons and dropping it on the back of the no go gage then buy a field gage too. If your buying all that get a go gage also.

Leave the spring alone. Check the firing pin protrusion now however. Just let the firing pin down with the bolt out of the rifle.

This might not be related, but I have read that the .358 shoulder is so small that the case is not supported very well in the chamber at the shoulder area. I have also read that this is one reason the cartridge did not become more popular.

What I think is happening is that the strike from the firing pin is driving the case forward, cushening and softening the amount of force hitting the primer.

You said that you run the unfired cases through the neck sizer.

Take a few more unsized cases and neck size them, but leave the base of the die unscrewed about 1/2 to 1 turn. This way, you won't size all the way to the shoulder, changing it's dimension or moving it back.

Do the same thing with cases that you successfully fired, that is, neck size, but not all the way to the shoulder. Fired cases are fireformed to fit your chamber, so headspace should no longer enter into it.

If you experience misfires with cartridges prepared in this manner, then the problem is probably with either firing pin protrusion or a weak spring.

"When I extracted it the primer was 0.02 inches protruding above the back of the case."

The extractor was the only think holding the case. The force from the primer explosion drove the case forward and the primer backward against the bolt face. Protruding primers is normal for primed cases fired in this manner.

There is an old Gun Digest where a retired gun writer wrote that if a .358 cartridge were to be dropped in the snow and then chambered it may not fire for the reason that you gave. That the shoulder is small.

I think that the .358's shoulder is adequate and in fact its larger than the .35 Remington for instance.

That gun writer is a Connecticut resident and I had a date to go chuck hunting with him but it never came off. I still can't recall his name. He worked for Winchester then.

It was Ed Matunas who was also the one who came up with the OGW formula!

All I know is if I had this gun I'd call Brownells and ask them if either of their springs were available and for $20 I could find out in two days whether a new spring would help.I'd order both springs and send the one I didn't use back or put it in my parts box.With deer season right around the corner I would definitely not send it back to Ruger at this time.While I had the bolt broken down I would give it a good cleaning before replacing the spring.This is such a problem w/new and very old guns that it is almost a no brainer. powdr

If you screw with it Ruger may not fix it.

Spot

"This might not be related, but I have read that the .358 shoulder is so small that the case is not supported very well in the chamber at the shoulder area. I have also read that this is one reason the cartridge did not become more popular."

Pure horsepucky! I have five rifles in .358 and absolutely no problems with headspacing or shoulders. FWIW, two are tang safety Rugers.

I also have a tang safety Ruger in .35 Whelen that does the exact same thing as your .358. I think you have a bad chamber, period. Have a gunsmith check the headspacing and if it's bad, send it back to Ruger for repair with a copy of the gunsmith's statement. They'll fix it for you and you'll have a better gun to boot. I ran into a similar problen with a Ruger #1. it had a two plus inch throat and the gunsmith's chamber cast and written report allowed Ruger to square the gun away, Now it's a tackdriver.
Paul B.

all, please note with mathman's technique I checked the NEW BRASS and the shoulder was 0.06 further back than fired brass or resized 308 brass. The fired brass's shoulder was exactly equal to that of the resized 308 brass's shoulder. I am going to shoot it again this week if I can, if it misfires with the proper sized brass I will take it to a gun smith!