Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles New .358 Win puzzle!

Took my new .358 Ruger all weather out to the range today. I had purchased 50 Winchester .358 cases from Midway which I ran over the neck sizing die and proceded to load from 43 up thru 51 grains of TAC behind a 200 grain hornady with a CCI LR Magnum primer. I also bought a box of Wisconsin Cartidge Corporation .358W loads with a 200 grain roundnose (RNSPCL). I got the rifle on paper with the loaded rounds and then backed off to 100. Pulled the trigger on the first reload "click", this happened for the rest of what I had loaded up, "click". The primers were deeply indented but the indentation seemed off center. I then tried each cartridge multiple times, and I was able to get most of them to fire eventually. I then shot 5 more of the store bought rounds, but even thought they fired every time as expected these had primer indentation that seemed off center. Got a couple of good groups anyway with TAC, great way to tell if your flinching when the gun does not go off everytime!! Back at the ranch I took 3 peices of new brass out of the bag, primed it without putting into the resizeing die then taking the bolt out of the gun hung the brass under the extractor. Pushing the empty brass home, and fireing I got "click", I tried this again with 3 times with CCI LR magnum, then WW LR Magnum primers none fired all had light primer strikes. I then tried it with a federal 210 primer in the new brass and it fired. When I extracted it the primer was 0.02 inches protruding above the back of the case. I did this 3 more times, each time the fed210 on fireng backed out very close to 0.02 inches, I then reprimed some of the fired brass with CCI LR Magnum primers and it fired. The fired brass was 2.08 to 2.19 in length the unfired brass is 2.04 in lenght. Any thoughts, is the gun a lemon or is the brass from Wincheser incorrect? Never had this happen before, the off center primers strikes worry me now.

If I had to worry about off Center Primer Strikes in My Hunting Rifles. I guess that I wouldn't have many left. My 98 Mauser does this, but can still bring it in under 2". If I had more "Bull" in Me, I'd tell You that I have to cant the Rifle to collomnate with the Strike, to get a better group.

My guess - the protruding primer is demonstrating the problem. Backed-out primers mean excess headspace, and if it really is 0.02" that is way too much. The fact that the fired cases did not have the problem leads me to believe that they were driven back against the breach (stretching the case walls along the way). The cases now fit the chamber and the firing pin can reach the primers more easily. Unfired cases put the primer too far away from the firing pin for reliable ignition.

What is the cause of the problem? The brass may be too short in the head/shoulder dimension, or the rifle's chamber may be drilled too deep. Since even the factory loads showed a light primer hit, I'd put my money on the rifle chamber. An off center firing pin is not uncommon and seldom causes ignition problems.


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Did you full-length size the new brass? If so, you may have bumped the choulder back a bit, depending on what shellholder you're using and how well it matches up to the dies you're using. Try just neck-sizing the new brass, adn see if that helps.

I'm curious why you're using magnum primers. Not enough powder in a .358 case to need a magnum igniter, I don't think. WLR standards should do just fine.

Dennis

I think jimmy is duplicating mule deer's loads per Handloader. TAC is a "ball" powder, and Ramshot data uses mag primers for the 338 Federal. No listed loads for the .358 Win yet. I don't think the mag primers are hurting anything, and I plan on using the same.

Yep, sounds like cartridge headspace issues IF you FL resized the new brass. If not, it may be chamber headspace issues that Ruger will have to correct with a new rifle.

I have the Hawkeye stainless and have had no problems with mine. I reload also and use mag primers with 748 & H335. My local gun shop sold a wood/blue Hawkeye with the same problems that you have. They sent it back to Ruger and they replaced the firing pin.

Ken

The new brass was run thru the sizing die before I shot today, it took 2-3 attempts to get the rifle to fire. I did get one 1.4 inch group despite all of this... To check and see if this was the problem, at my bench I primed 3 brand new pieces of brass out of the bag without sizing them. These did not fire. All went "click" and all exhibited a light primer strike.
The Wisconsin Cartridge corporation loads all fired today at the range. New unsized brass with federal 210 fired but backed out the primer by 0.02, fired brass that was FL resized and primed fired, 3 resized 308 brass that was primed, fired as well! Could it be a chitt run of brass? Is there some kind of a guage you can buy to see if the headspace is too much?

damn I hate having to worry about this in a brand new rifle!

Have you measured the difference in head to shoulder distance between unfired and fired brass?

Chamber wise you could get a no-go gauge.

Buy a set of go/no go gages. They will be the same for 243, 260, 7-08, 308, 338-08, and 358. They're cheap and you'll need them again someday. Or just go to the gunsmith and have him check.

Its probably the brass. Did the factory ammo leave protruding primers?
Three solutions;
-send back the brass, buy new.
-neck up the brass to .366 or .375, then run it through your 358 die backed off, a little at a time until it chambers with a little crush. Load and shoot. Don't set back the shoulder too much when you reload this.
-Load brass as is, wih bullets jammed into the lands. This will fireform the brass without stretching near the head.

The RCBS precision mic set can help you determine if your brass matches your chamber, but you need fireformed brass without protruding primers.

All good info above, another option, neck up, create a false shoulder on a couple pieces of brass. Then neck size it back to .358, but do it little at time testing bolt closer each time. When you get some resistance, and bolt closes, prime that brass, and test fire then... This will give you a mark on the neck to measure. If it goes off, repeat above, and load one up live, test fire, measure case. Another way would be to build a light load, let the bullet engage into the rifeling, and fire form some brass. Either one of these options will give you some true cases to measure.

The bullet jammed in rifling creates a better case than the false neck, some times the fireing pin drives that shoulder forward, and the brass is not as strong as the spring slamming the pin�.

Good luck,
Hope it is not the chamber, would hate to see Ruger making long chambers..


Later...

Does the rim fit loosely behind the extractor claw? Could rims be thin on that brass? Some controlled round guns hold the case firmly against the bolt face, others seem loose enough to let the pin strike move the case forward.

More on this latter as I have resized 10 308 brass, and reloaded with 49grains of TAC+CCILRM primers. If they all shoot reliably I am going to call Midway and tell them I want my money back on the .358 brass. Tell you what though it sure is a lesson in how sensitive Federal primers are!!!

Make sure the datum line on the shoulder is the same to compare apples to apples.

is there an easy way to do this? The calipers seem to be "guesstimates" as there is no hard easy line to read.

Do you have an empty piece of 40 S&W brass hanging around? It's all you need to use with your calipers to compare head-shoulder distances on 308 class cartridge cases.

Many of the Limited Edition Ruger M-77 Mk II in 35 Whelens used to do that. A lot of guys sent them back to Ruger, who fiddled with them and sent them back without solving the problem. In some cases, the rifle would make several trips back and never get properly sorted out. Ruger rebarreled/replaced a bunch of them, but I read about more than a few guys who were without their rifles for a year or more.

I took mine to Jim Cloward, a fairly well-known riflemaker. He felt the problem was a weak firing pin spring. He told me he had fixed the same problem in other Ruger M-77 Mk II's with a Wolff extra-strength spring.

The spring and a trigger job cost less than $40, and my rifle ran perfectly after that.


Okie John

Okie John, I would agree with you except that the federal primers backed out 0.02 when I fired new unsized, primed but notloaded with powder or bullet, WW brass in the gun.

Mathman, I can get a .40S&W tomorow, how do I use it? Thanks.

If it's a new rifle I'd take it to a gunsmith to have him check the headspace or call ruger directly and tell them what's up.

I would also check a piece of fired brass to see how long the should was but you'd need a guage.

Spot

You'll want a 40 case whose mouth is round and smooth. A sized and deprimed one is best, but not strictly necessary. Just put the mouth of the 40 case over the neck of the rifle case and measure the whole thing head-to-head.

You can compare the brass before and after firing, different lots of new brass, fired brass from different intensity loads or different chambers and you can measure how far you're bumping back the shoulder of the rifle case when you resize it.

You want to keep using the same piece of 40 brass so you don't have calibration issues so to speak.

mathman