Just got a Sinclair concentricity gage and need some help evaluating what I am seeing, and what I might be able to do to fix it. I made up 20 rounds of 7-08 rem tonight, checking run-out on the necks during each step. Was working with twice fired Norma brass. Checked out the necks before I did anything, all were less than .002".

My first step was full length sizing. Redding series A dies. I size with the expander removed, and bump the shoulder .001"-.002". Necks after this sizing remained .002" or under.

I expand the necks using a neck sizing die (again Redding) with the die loose in the press, and the expander loose in the die. I feel this lets the expander find its own way as I push it down into the neck. To be clear here, I only run the case up high enough to push the expander through the neck, and then back it out. Most necks still ran .002" or under, with one or two of them at .003".

Primed and charged the cases.

On to the seating. Standard Redding series A seating die. I was loading Hornady 139 SPs. Was disappointed with what I found after seating. Indicator tip was running on the bearing surface of the bullet, just behind the ogive. Inconsistent is the best way to describe the readings. I would say almost half ran at .002" or under. Five or six of them ran between .003" and .004". The other four or five ran between .005" and .008".

This is the first time I've been able to check concentricity so would appreciate any insight you all might have. Something wrong with my process? Or perhaps this is somewhat typical with a standard seating die?

Thanks for the help.

When seating, instead of seating all in one stroke, try starting the bullet down, turn the case, seat a little deeper, turn the case and finish...........I usually take three strokes.....

get your fingers out of the way between.....


Having said all that I'm not sure anything needs to be 'fixed'

Have you ever tried using a regular ol FL die with the expander set-up the way it's supposed to be? You might just be surprised how little run-out you get if you adjust your dies properly. It's obvious that your process and your fancy die is over rated... All those extra steps are a waste of time. In the end, it only matters what the finished product says the TIR is... . Why you guys fu ck around with all this extra bullchit is beyond me... Just to be clear, I do use a concentricity gauge and the run-out on loaded ammo is all less than .003" with plain jane ol FL RCBS reloading die set bought from the LGS... Keep it simple at first, then step on up to the big boy toys if you are shooting competition where you need less than .001" TIR... Some guys might think it's your bullet choice. I call BS on that right now, as I load interlocks with minimal run-out. You got to learn how to set that seater die up for minimal run-out and you'll be golden. I was just out a couple weekends ago and shot some loads from my 338wm that were all less than .002" TIR. Here are the results:


Keep this chit simple.

So which is it. Sizing or seating. Im not screwing the necks up during sizing, the measurements show that.

As far as wasting time with extra steps, it was only one step, doesnt take long, and I have the time.

If you have any pointers as to how I should be setting up the seating die Im all ears.

Thanks

Get yourself a LEE Collet neck die and a Forster Competition Seater die and thank me later

I was going to suggest the collet die. Not a big investment, worth a try. I use one when loading for bolt guns. I also like the factory crimp die, but that's neither here or there if you don't tend to have them in a rifle to get recoiled a bunch.

Get a Redding carbide expander ball and decapping rod. The carbide expander ball floats eliminating the need for the neck die to expand necks.

I'd say your sizing practice is fine if you are maintaining 0.002" on average. A few little tweaks might get you down a bit further...or not.

I'd be willing to bet that if you pulled the bullets on those few loaded cartridges that have higher runout, you would find that there is a bit of variation in the neck wall thickness. If you're really worried about it, there are calipers and gauges just for it. Or you can mark them and see if they load crooked again after firing, sizing, and reloading. If they do, you know there is likely a problem with that case. You could either discard or turn the neck.

Or you can just buy a tru-tool and correct the few and call it good. You didn't say what your loading for or just how important accuracy is.

Yes,

Better dies make a huge difference.

I skip the Lee collet die and just use the Forster Competition sets. Run out goes away.

I like the Redding body die, Lee Collet neck sizer, and Redding or Forster Competion seating die combo.

Did you sort your brass for neck thickness variance? If not that will show up on the concentricity gauge.

With the Lee Collet neck sizer, neck thickness variance will have lees impact on the final concentricity reading.

In all fairness a man is gong to end up w/a couple that are .003+ to .005 out of a box of brass when loaded. Hunt w/everything that's .003 and below and you'll be good. Don't let these guys fool you into thinking all of they're ammo has .oo1 or no run out. powdr

I believe I saw JB in a video where he said anything up to .005 is good for hunting.

That being said, anything over .003 sees my trutool. I'm retired.

I try to get anything I fire in a rifle that is intended to be halfway accurate to .002" or under. It doesn't always happen, but...

What I have noticed is that those unexplained flyers seemed to have gone away. I don't shoot any better, but the groups are rounder.

Ha!

How does the load shoot?

I think your run out range is fine given that one has not been completely anal about his brass prep. I'd venture annealing then neck reaming/turning might knock it down a couple more thousandths.

I see no issue what so ever with attempting generate consistent ammo whether it be a bench or sporter unit.

Thanks for replies. I'm fully aware that I dont "need" perfect ammo to kill deer, which by the way is the intended purpose of the rifle. Im interested in how to make my reloads better because I want to, not because I have to. Fact is reloading is just as big of a hobby for me as shooting and hunting. I enjoy it a lot and have learned a ton right here on the fire.

Back to business. In my mind the most inconsistent part of my process seems to be seating. Being I checked the necks at each stage and everything seemed cool until seating, I would think that would be the place to start.

Those of you who have used the benchrest/competition seaters, do you see an obvious difference compared to a standard die. Im willing to make the investment if it eliminates a variable for me.

And does anybody have any idea what bsa is talking about re: setting up my seati g die for minimal run-out? Not sure what options there really are with a standard Redding? Insert die, screw seater plug down to set desired length, maybe Im missing something.

Your initial results are what I found when I first started checking concentricity

Before you spend $$$ on expensive tools give this a go ... it works for me.

First, I ream the case mouth in two steps. Use a standard 45 degree reamer to bevel the mouth and then use a VLD reamer with a couple of backwards twists to knock to edge off. It will make you bullets seat silky smooth with no hang up at the case mouth. If they hang up it can induce run out.

When seating the bullet I raise the ram (just contact only) and check with my fingertips to see if the case tilts/wobbles/moves on the shellholder. If it tilts then rotate the case and check again. Do this before the bullet ever enters the case mouth. The idea is to make sure that the bullet starts perfectly straight. If it starts straight it will remain straight(er). If it starts crookedy it will induce run out. Rotating the case after the bullet has entered the neck won't change anything. Once the bullet starts in the neck ram it home.

Don't expect every round to come out perfect but you can reduce the number of rounds that are way off.

Sorting necks will also make a difference.

That's my two cents.

Another help with standard seating dies is the Lyman M-die, used for expanding the case mouth. This would replace the second expansion step the OP does. With proper adjustment the mandrel expands the case mouth with a step (not a flare) of slightly greater than bullet diameter. You can finger start the bullet straight into the case without it tipping during the seating stroke of the ram.

Setting B:




Cutaway:



This type of expander is also great for ironing dings out of the necks of new brass.

That makes sense fish, thanks. I like the idea of feeling to see if the case tries to tilt a bit at first contact, should be a good way to see if you're out of whack before driving it home.

I can definitely feel some bullets getting a better start than others. I assume this isnt helped by the fact they are flat based bullets. Probably tougher to give them a good start.

I have been using a vld tool and only a few quick turns. I'll try more of a bevel and see how I do.

Mathman, I like that idea a lot too. Would you run any type of crimp after seating or just leave the small step as is?

I've left many thousands as is, probably 99% of the time. But there's noting wrong with applying a very light crimp just to smooth it in, not crimping into the bullet at all.

I've gone to the Redding body die, lee collet die, & Forster seater too. I have Forster benchrest full length sizers too but they don't give the straightness of the body/collet die setup.

I'd say your problem is mostly in your sizing, necks running out at .002" will result in more runout at the ogive because it's further out on the lever arm. I'd go back to the regular full length die, I suspect you'll get better numbers than that.

They, like any FL die, work much better when the neck section of the die is of a diameter such that the sized brass is just lightly kissed by the expander ball on the way out. The nice thing about Forster is they will hone to suit.

I've got two FL Forster dies that I've had honed, a 6BR & 6.5x47L. I completely removed the expander balls , they work great too & are a big improvement. I didn't mention that option because I thought that might be throwing too much at the OP.

The best advice I think is to get rid of expander balls all together, they're the source of a lot of problems. Whether that's by the body/collet die combo, the honed Forster die, or a bushing neck sizer/body die it doesn't really matter, all of those are a big step up. My two honed dies are used with Lapua brass which I think is part of the reason it works so well. If you're gonna use cheap brass then the collet die is probably better or else you need to neck turn.

Good stuff guys thanks.

I don't think there is a single answer to your question, lots of things induce runout, and lots of things will improve concentricity. I've experimented with a few things, and there are many more things to try. I think turning necks is a good first step, helped my runout. Didn't make a lot of sense to me to have brass of various thickness wrapped around a bullet and then hope to see minimal runout. Trimming necks helps. Next is to use higher quality tools. As many have stated the Forster dies are well reviewed. The Lee Collet die is well reviewed. I've settled in to using Wilson hand dies. The runout results have gotten better for me with Wilson dies. But I'm going to try some Forster and Widden dies too.

A consistent runout I feel shows consistency in your loading practices. If you do the same thing, with the same components all the time, you should see consistency in the readings. That's one part to segregate from minimizing runout as a separate measure.

For the poster that's worried about why we would go to such lengths to minimize runout, it's a hobby. Learning one way to do things is a stimulating start. Learning several more continues the interest in the hobby. If the goal was to have some minimalist financial target, or to get done with it - yeah, we could surely make it through life just fine with the one way learned first.

One thing I would like to get a better idea of is at what point run-out will show obvious effects on accuracy, and I realize how hard it is generalize here. All my current rifles are hunting rigs with sporter weight barrels. The only after market barrel being a douglas on my 700 mountain 7-08, in factory dupe contour.

I believe I have seen MuleDeer write that doesnt see issues arise until you're over .005" but im not sure if he was speaking to factory hunting rifles or more benchrest type guns.

An interesting test is to check the run-out on some factory ammo that shoots well in one of your rifles.

You're thinking along the right lines. How much runout affects performance depends on what the system (rifle, optics, target selection, etc) can resolve. A full on BR rig has the potential to show more than an off the rack sporter.

A friend of mine inherited a number of ammo cans full of 7.62x51 Lake City Match ammo, both M118 and M852 varieties. That is, 308 ammo loaded with 173 and 168 grain bullets on top of IMR4895 for 2550-2600 fps.

Long story short: I put a bunch on my Sinclair fixture and segregated by runout into batches. I got my friend to shoot them without knowing what he was testing. One test was with a Ruger 77 MkII with a 3-9x40 hunting scope, a known good shooter with straight cartridges. With the runout segregated LC match the improvement cutoff was .005". In a later, similar test my Rem 700 5R Milspec showed improvement down to .003" runout.

Another thing I learned working with the Lake City match ammo in several accurate rifles is, at least to 300 yards, that powder charge variations I expect few on this site would find acceptable in their own handloads had little effect on precision compared to bad runout.

What level of variation did you find with the lake city. Change weight is one of the things I feel I might be too picky about.

An interesting thing. When I had my 243 built, I gave the gunsmith my dies,as he was going to do some load development. He got really tight groups with the occasional flier. He found my dies were putting out a round with moderate run out about every 5th round. He set the rounds with run out aside, and reshot the groups. When he shot the rounds with Run out, he found that they were the ones causing the fliers. Everything else was tight. I bought new Redding competition dies, no more problems.

That is an unhappy thought, as I trickle powder but I don't check run-out... I guess a Sinclair concentrically tool may be on the wish list.

I while back I wanted to closely reproduce a milspec precision 308 type round called Mk 316 Mod 0 whose propellant is IMR 4064, a long kernel extruded powder. The specs called for an average charge weight of 41.75 grains. Here's my old post about it:

Yep, I check run out but throw my powder charge. It will get one miles further as far as accuracy is concerned ☺

As far as seating the bullet the Forster Benchrest Seater is worth its weight in gold. For the OP...the Forster Benchrest Seater holds the case and bullet in perfect alignment while it seats the bullet by use of a sliding sleave. The Redding Competition Seater works the same way but costs about $45 more. I prefer the Forster because it comes with a seating stem that will seat VLD type bullets or non VLD where as the Redding die you have buy a VLD compatible stem seperate.


Trystan

I used a couple of the suggestions here and saw improvements. Another batch of 20 produced the same way I made the first batch with 2 changes. First, I was more aggressive with chamfering the case mouth. Second, I was much more careful and gentle about starting the bullets. Used as little pressure as possible and if it didnt seem to slide in easily, I rotated the case until it did. 19 Rounds with .001 or .002 runout, one with .003. Much better consistency.

I will still probably invest in another seating die. I can see on the bullets that the plug is only contacting near the the bullet tip where the plugs taper ends. This can't be ideal for consistent results. Seems like the Forster Benchrest has done well for many of you. Thanks again for the help.

Congratulations !

You're there as far minimal bullet runout with the dies you're using. Your results are excellent. The next step would be be to start sorting necks by thickness but even with best seater you won't be able to take full advantage of it until you have consistent brass with no more that .0015" variance in thickness.

Here's the other reality of trying to gain a minute improvement in runout. It all depends on the accuracy potential of your rifle. If it's not an absolute tack driver you could be spinning your wheels and unlikely to see any improvements in groups. Long ago I found out that biggest factor in accuracy is the rifle itself. You can craft the finest custom handloads but if you don't have a rifle that shoots you won't turn a turd into bench rest gun.

How's it shoot?

At this point you'll gain more by fine tuning the loads - powder charge, seating depth, bullet type and weight, etc, etc, etc..

fish head - very good post. There are stages along the way in the pursuit of accuracy, and most are satisfied to step off at one of the stages, while others prefer to keep advancing.

Not to pollute the thread with the mention of golf, but I have an excellent book put out by Golf Digest that breaks topics into "Breaking 100", "Breaking 90", and "Breaking 80" with tips for golfers who fit into each category. It would be interesting to see accuracy improvement methods divided into similar categories.

Where would "get rid of the Barska scope and quit putting the barrel directly on the hard front rest" fit in the golf world? How to break 180?

Points well taken, I am certainly satisfied with the results and don't believe I'll be chasing it any further for the time being. The rounds shot quite well with no "flyers" so I'm happy. This is a Rem 700 mountain in 7-08, certainly no bench gun, but shoots great for what it is.

There has been a fair amount of testing on rum out one military test with match 30-06 springfields showed run out less than .005 did not affect accuracy and then at some point .008 or more the chambering of the round would straighten it some so the accuracy was a sort of bell curve.

I just use good dies, collet and comp seater, no expander set up well and don't usually even check run out unless accuracy is off. I usually just roll the rounds on a piece of glass and any that wobble significantly go in the plinking and practice box.

If run out is under about .005 I don't shoot well enough from improvised rests to see any difference.

If you want the best ammo you can get (without turning necks) the above method is what works best for me.

Plus keeping your necks annealed & seating the bullet in 3 short strokes rather than one single stroke.

Never don't work.

MM

Montana Man,

I use the same three dies also. 😀 Apparantly more than 1 person has figured out this combo. IMO it doesn't get any better or easier when loading for a shelf rifle.😎


Trystan

Never found the need to rotate bullets in the Forster BR seating die.

Rotating helped in a few RCBS "regular" seating dies I have. I only rotate once at 90 degrees after the bullet is seated maybe 1/8", or so.

Haven't read this thread, only skimmed it, but here's how to get rid of runout.

1 - Redding bushing sizer and Comp seater

2 - Bushing size determined per Redding's instructions

The easiest way to determine the proper diameter bushing is to measure the neck diameter of several loaded or dummy cartridges with an accurate micrometer. (These dummy cartridges can be loaded with your old set of dies or a borrowed set.) Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet.

3 - Cull any brass with a neck wall variance greater than .001". Nip this in the bud by going with Lapua brass. Lapua makes 7-08 brass. If Lapua doesn't make the brass, look for another cartridge. LOL


Three easy steps and your runout is gone and you don't have to hold your mouth a certain way and stand on one foot. LOL

I used to use the Redding bushing sizers more, but I've converted over to Lee collet dies for most uses.

For $120 less I can do exactly the same thing with a Lee neck sizer and a Forster benchrest seater, plus avoid case lube. 😀

I agree on the brass. Why chase run out with schit brass. I buy Lapua or Norma



Trystan

Along with cheaper, it's sometimes quicker and easier to get low runout with the Lee collet die instead of the Redding bushing die.

Consider the 308 Winchester with a SAAMI chamber. The minimum diameter for the chamber neck is .343", and you know how many chambers are cut minimum in factory rifles? Yeah, right.

So we fire a round assembled in Winchester brass in our factory chamber. A quick check shows the fired neck has an OD of .344". Winchester 308 brass is pretty thin, and we know our loaded rounds had .332" OD necks. So we want their sized OD to be .330" for a .002" interference fit when the bullets are seated. That is, we need to reduce the diameter of those necks by fourteen thousandths.

I tell you from direct experience we're not going to run those .344" necks through a .330" bushing and not induce a bunch of runout. So we'll need to bushing size in steps. Each step requires another bushing, and they don't exactly give away the preferred TiN coated ones. On top of this every sizing step can induce its own runout, though decidedly less than trying to do the sizing in one pass.

In contrast, the whole sizing operation can be accomplished easy peasy with one set up in a twenty dollar Lee collet die. And they come out straight too.

I've even found the collet die to be the better solution for Lapua brass which needs to be sized .336" for eight thousandths reduction from fired.

Now if we're shooting our Lapua brass 308 rounds in a custom .340" neck chamber with the fired cases coming out .338" or .339" after springback, then a bushing die may great. But the Lee collet will still work too.

Mathman,

I agree, not to mention if you don't neck turn your brass the Redding bushing die will induce run out because it sizes from the outside of the neck where differences in neck thickness will push the hole off center.

The lee collet neck die squeezes the neck down to a mandrel that is perfectly centered so the hole, bullet, is perfectly centered reducing run out regardless of neckwall thickness variations. Factory chambers have enouph clearance that neck turning really doesn't give you any return as far as accuracy. However, starting the bullet straight which the lee neck die does do will net results. The Redding die is capable of equaling the lee die but you have to neck turn to do it. In a factory chamber where it won't show up on paper why make it so hard when it can be so easy. 😀



Trystan

Trystan, with Lapua brass and Redding bushing die, most of my loads have bullet runount less than .001 without turning necks. As to Mathman's point, all of my stuff is snug necks with minimum down sizing required.

ctsmith, Lapua brass is some good stuff and I've had the same results as you.
I haven't had the best of luck with some of the other brands. From some of the OP comments I was thinking he wasn't interested in dropping whatever brass he was useing. My comment was geared toward the advantage of useing the lee die in this type of situation though I didn't convey the message very well. Over the years I have a pretty good stash of brass that isn't Lapua or Norma and its one reason I also went to useing the lee neck die.☺



Trystan

My Norma experience in regards to neck wall variance has been hit or miss. Norma 300 WM is good, Norma 280 Rem has been bad. Same with Nosler, some good, some bad. Never had any bad Lapua.

To the OP, and it may have been mentioned already, grab a neck wall variance jig and toss anything over .001.

Unfortunately I've been able to find a bad batch from most manufacturers. I haven't had any bad neck Norma, but I haven't used that much Norma either. I did get a dud batch of Lapua 308's. That one pissed me off since the Lapua I was using had been so consistent I quit measuring. As a result I loaded a large batch of bananas that didn't shoot so well.

Some of the best necks I've ever measured were RP 243 cases from green box factory ammo a friend bought years ago. Other lots may stink. I used to use a bunch of RP in 308 until I got a batch where most had necks .003" thicker on one side and Remington told me that was within tolerance.

If you strictly hold this tolerance the per piece price of garden variety brass may approach Lapua/Norma level because of the reject rate. That's what I found with the QC slide in mass market brass that seemed to start in 2008. I wonder what happened about then?

Yes sir, I agree.

Originally Posted By Trystan

"Ive shot so many sub 2" 500 yd groups with a stock tikka I've lost count. Mount a scope and go hunt."





Trystan,

I (and I am sure many others) are still waiting for you to school us on how to consistently shoot sub 2" groups at 500 yards, with a fixed 6x scope.


I think you mentioned "Next week" a couple weeks ago?




I am ready to be schooled.

Mackay,

If you wish to be schooled pay attention. A picture on the internet is worth a thousand lies. If I was truly a dishonest liar I'd post up some 100 yd target pics and claim they were all shot at 500. Nobody would know the difference. Its called deductive reasoning. There's a reason why I offered a real life demonstration. I proposed to offer tangible evidence that can be believed without any doubt yet everyone declined that offer. Yet everyone begs for pictures on the internet worth a thousand lies. When a man ask for a picture worth a thousand lies it is clear that mans motive is not to seek truth, or that man is uneducated and gullible. Its not the course of wisdom.

I will still post pictures for you as soon as I get the chance. I did make it back to Montana however there was still several feet of snow on the range I want to use. We got over 5' on the level in town this year. Almost broke records but was just shy.

Some fellas from Best of the West are going to be coming up later this year to shoot with some of us. When I post pics maybe I'll post my picture with some of them fellas in it. Or maybe I won't either.



Trystan

The larger the case capacity the smaller the affect of accuracy from the amount of powder variatio

I sure wouldn't worry about a few rounds coming out over .003. I would either buy or make a Tru Tool ( They ain't that hard to make). Fix the problem rounds and go shoot. A person can waste a lot of time and spend money tryingto figure out and fix a problem that doesn't matter.

I think along time ago,Mathman posted that those rounds that had run out and were fixed did not shoot quite as good as rounds that that had no appreciable run out to begin with.

I am not a bench rest shooter and he is by far probably a better shooter than I, but I have no seen any difference.

I usually load a 100 rounds at a time.I may get 8-10 that surpass .003 run out. I fix those with my home made tool, mark them and usually use them as fouling shots when I go check my scope zero before hunting season.Since I only use 3-4 rounds to check zero and 1-3 rounds hunting out of that 100 I loaded,I run out of those fouling rounds long before I run out of the others.

I believe you're referring to this:



The difference occurred when there was significant straightening to be done. Small amounts of straightening didn't screw things up.

Mathman, so those problem rounds started with .007 or more run-out?

Thanks. At least my memory wasn't completely out to lunch which happens a lot now days. I doubt I have ever fixed any run out that required more than .002 adjustment.Maybe why I never saw a difference.

I had been testing a bunch of Lake City match in 7.62x51, M118 version IIRC. Given that it was 'match' ammo I was surprised at the number of bananas I found.

So yes, straightening cartridges from .007" or more down to .003" or less didn't produce as good a result on target as cartridges that were straight to .003" or less in the first place.

Two or three thousandths of straightening mostly did well.

Added: I should say I was making these comparisons using rifles like my Remington 40X or 5R Milspec. I may not have been able to clearly tell the difference with my LVSF that isn't as easy to shoot off the bags and whose barrel has seen a good number of rounds.

Thanks.

My experience with straightening rounds has been the same as mathman's, with a bunch of cartridges.

My other comment on this thread is related to saddlesore's posts: Bullet run-out makes more difference in some rifles, bullets and loads than others. If you're getting the accuracy you want, then why dink around with run-out?

I can't recall many factory big-game rifles that shot better with run-out less than .005". On the other hand, accurate varmint rifles often show improvement with .003 ammo--but not always.

Another example would be the Brno .22 K-Hornet I was playing with last week. Using the old C-H dies that came with the rifle, run-out varies from .002 to .005. Yet 10-shot groups at 100 yards (which I use to judge rifles used for abundant burrowing rodents) go around 3/4 inch, which in my experience is plenty good enough for shooting prairie dogs at 300 yards--and I probably won't use the K-Hornet to shoot them that far. So I'm not going to micro-manage my reloading to reduce the bullet run-out.

Where is the indicator when you check for run out?

Most directions for run-out gauges suggest around .1 inch in front of the case mouth, but that can vary some depending on the ogive.

Hard to beat the Lee Collet Neck sizer and a Body die. I didn't like the Lee FL die. I cut the neck out to clear the case neck, turned it into a body die. Works pretty well. Being I already had it, it was cheaper than buying a Redding body die, which is what I usually do.

DF

Trystan: You're right about still photos being worthless.

Isn't that why you said you'd do a youtube video?




So, do you still think you'd be a schmuck if you don't oblige?

Thanks. I guess I've been doing it wrong since I measure about .1" from the tip. Yesterday I took someone's suggestion and turned the cartridge after seating the bullet and seated it again. I was pleasantly surprised to see some coming out at .001" runout. The worst was .003". It looks like I will be doing this always in the future.

Smokepole,

I agree with you sir. The snow is finally about gone and I'll be in Montana again soon. I will get this project done.


Trystan