I sold a rifle through the free classified a few weeks ago. I received a pm from a poster with only a couple of posts saying his friend was interested. I sent him my address and a postal money order arrived last monday that I cashed. In the envelope was also the ffl. So upon preparing to ship the rifle, I realized that the postal money order was the only information about the purchaser that I had, and it was already cashed. I pm'd the person that contacted me and asked for the purchasers name so I could fill out a bill of sale and send the rifle to the ffl. I sent several messages and received no response and it has been nearly a week. The messages say "unread by: none". I tried to look up the ffl's number and the only one I found has been disconnected. So I have the rifle, the money and nobody will contact me. Any idea's?

I think it's a good idea just to post this. Once somebody figures out they haven't recieved the rifle I would figure that this will remove any doubt that you have been trying to communicate. Wouldn't move that rifle or spend that money for at least 6 months though.

Good luck!

Sounds like the ideal sale. You get the cash and can continue to use the rifle.

It may take a little time, but eventually it seems likely that someone will get in touch with you....and Carolina Shooter said it right that this post will show you're excercising good faith in trying to finish the deal.

Just a question,could he not write the bill of sale to the ffl and ship it?
BBJ

That sounds ok. Send a PM to say it was shipped to the FFL and provide a tracking number. The only risk is that the FFL gets it and doesn't know what to do with it. But, probably safest to wait for a response from the buyer since the FFL can't be contacted.

good idea. I'd send it. he can alays request a bill of sale.

That would be EXACTLY what I would do. You are REALLY selling the rifle to the FFL in the first place. He will do the 4473 and transfer the rifle on his end. He could do the bill of sale and put N/C for the amt received.

Personally, I'd keep the rifle and funds locked away for several months. You've done your part by sending a PM and posting here. WAIT until you are contacted by the purchaser. If you send it, then it gets lost in transit or by the FFL (if he is still in business), you'll be the one taking the blame - even though you did nothing wrong.

Did you verify the FFL on the BATFE website?

Good Luck!

RH

Why not write a letter to the FFL, explain the situation and ask him to call you. He gave the buyer his FFL so he ought to know who he is.

Thought ?

The MO is for sale of rifle, to �seller� for the sum of the MO; not to the transfer of the FFL.

Buyer is responsible for payment of transfer to FFL to show owner ship.

[/quote]

That would be EXACTLY what I would do. You are REALLY selling the rifle to the FFL in the first place. He will do the 4473 and transfer the rifle on his end. He could do the bill of sale and put N/C for the amt received. [/quote]

The ffl is just doing paper work to make the sale legal. The ffl is not the buyer.

Google...ATFOnline or FFLeZCheck
You can check and see if the ffl is still good .

If you have the $$ and a current signed copy of a valid FFL, you are legally tranferring (selling) the rifle to the receiving FFL holder.

Since the rifle is being shipped under his/her FFL, he/she has to run it through the business, log it into his/her bound book, and will need to complete a 4473 to transfer it to the end-user/buyer and out of his/her bound book.

I'd call the FFL holder and see who he/she gave a copy of his/her FFL to, so that the end-user/buyer could have the rifle shipped.

FWIW, I ALWAYS make a photo-copy of every check/MO that I receive as payment for a firearm and I put that into the file related to that sale. I also keep a copy of the bill of sale and cover-letter that goes out with each sale. If the BATF comes knocking, I want to be able to show due diligence.

Whenever the end user isn't the FFL holder himself/herself, my cover-letters are addressed as follows:

ABC Gun Shop (the FFL holder)
Attn: John Q. Public (the end user/buyer)
123 Main Street
Anytown, AZ 90123

Jeff

Wow! Just freaking wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The BATFE thing escapes so many it is beyond freaking belief. The seller in this case is NOT AN FFL. His requirements under the law are extremely limited. He has ZERO RECORD-KEEPING OBLIGATIONS... That would be NONE!!!!!!!!!

Check the BATFE website to ensure the FFL is valid... The FFL copy should NOT have been sent in the first place, period.

Seller has the money, an FFL number to verify, and an address, Ship the man's gun to his FFL and quite being a total PITA to the buyer. When he realizes seller is being a jerk and not sending his gun, which he has in good faith paid for, he has every right to be pissed!!!!
art

?? for the FFL guys .......

If the seller (non-ffl) has the money for the weapon and sends it to the FFL for transfer (who did not pay for it) and the buyer never claims it! What happens to the weapon ?

Does the FFl get a free weapon ?

Tim

I have checked the BATF site and the ffl is current. However it is just kind of strange that his phone number is not connected, I dont have the person's name to whom the gun is supposed to go to (granted I would if I had made a copy of the money order), and my messages are being read and not replied to. Is there a possibility that the PO money order could be fake? If that was not a consideration, I would just ship the gun and be done with it.

Same situation can happen when prospective buyer is "denied" by BATFE. Firearm is already paid for, but the one purchasing has to find some way to sell it to someone else that can pass a NICS check. At the same time the FFL has to be extremely careful that the new purchaser is actually the buyer as "straw purchases" are a major sore spot with BATFE.

If the FFL posts something to the effect "Not responsible for firearms not cleared within 6 months" he could legally sell them... He would also need to notify the "owner" when doing it.
art

Trying very hard not to be rude here, really, but it is very hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SHIP THE GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postal money orders are the prefered way to pay for one simple reason. You take them to the PO and cash them. The PO makes a judgement on them on the spot and you get your money.

Involving a bank in any way complicates this as the bank will come back at you for the money if the PO later says the MO is forged.

Take the MO to the PO and cash it at the same time you ship. You have your money and the gun goes out ASAP.

Now ship the man his gun and get it over with! He does not need a receipt and you should not be keeping records of other people's guns...
art

There you have it. I wouldn't argue with that, Makes sense. And it is the right thing to do.

Not to hijack the thread but, the Post Office around here won't cash postal money orders unless they're for very small amounts. Does most everybody take their postal money orders to the PO to cash? I've tried several times and finally given up.....

Local PO will cash "IF" they have the money - which they usually don't. And when they do, they don't seem happy. Rather have a MO from Wally World.

PO is required to cash them. Call ahead and tell them you will have a MO for X dollars and please have cash ready. They will comply if they are anything like the ones around here. Their rules state they must do so...

I do not agree that the rifle should be sent to the FFl w/o talking or speaking to him first.

I had a similar situation 2 years ago and sent the rifle to the FFL. He had no idea who the rifle was for and he thought it was some kind of "set up" to get him burned by BATF. He immediatly called BATF and complained. BATF a actually came to my house while I was out of town. Put the fear of God into my wife. It took about three months to get it all straightened out. I don't know if the original person that bought the gun ever even picked up even though he paid for it. Emails to him were unanswered.
I have no idea what the final outcome was, but I had to produce the original bill of sale from when I initially purchased the firearm. I never again heard from the dealer, the BATF, or the buyer, and I cashed his MO.

From that point on in addition to the FFL holder I also require name, address,and phone number of purchaser or I don't sell.

BTW the PO anywhere I have been usually will not cash MO if they are much over $50.00

LC

I think Art is right on. The fellow sent the M.O., the FFL, send him his gun. It has to go to the FFL anyway so you don't need the purchaser's adress.

lefty
"...but I had to produce the original bill of sale from when I initially purchased the firearm..."

Why? NOTHING says you have to keep ANY records. Three months to straighten out what? You sent gun to FFL... DONE DEAL! If buyer did not get permission from FFL first he might have an issue. If FFL forgot about buyer, he might have an issue. You, on the other hand, got your money and moved your gun... END of story.

Nothing says you have to maintain records, period.
art

ship it, the FFL is probably expecting it and knows who the guy is.

make him wait for it.If hes reading your emails,and not responding,Id make him wait for it.Likewise with the FFL.He doesnt have a phone? How does he call in transfers?

And just why would you delay shipping on somebody else's gun?

Why would you assume he has no phone? Simply because the seller could not find one does not mean he does not have one... Could just be the phone is unlisted, under a different name, or the seller screwed up on the search.

If it were my gun and some idiot was holding up shipping for the reasons stated I would be none too happy... There are lots of reasons why the buyer might not be answering emails... None of which have a bloody thing to do with getting the good faith purchaser that which he paid for more than a week ago...
art

I've just generally cashed postal money orders at the bank, never had any issues.


Back on topic, I wouldn't send the rifle to the FFL without any info with whom it truely belongs to. But I would also try to contact the FFL and see if they know who the transfer was for and if they know take down their name and any info you can for your own records if there is any other problems.

If you find out any info from the FFL and do indeed send it, I'd still send a PM with whatever info you have along with the tracking info.

I agree. Insure it, get the $3 delivery confirmation. Once the gun gets there who cares? Your end is covered. Keep the receipts.

When I am expecting a gun at my ffl's I call them daily or every two days. That is my job as a buyer. If he never piks it up....so what?

Please just SHIP THE DARN THING before art blows a gasket. Besides, it's the right thing to do

You received payment in good faith. Why haven't you shipped the gun?

g

Cuz in good conscience, he doesn't want to send the rifle to the FFL without the buyer's name on it. The FFL might be a small outfit or a big one and if it is big, he doesn't want the firearm to be lost in the crowd. He attempted to contact the FFL to check but is unable. This one reason I always get a cell phone to call if I have any questions. I also provide my own.

Art, just so you don't complete blow a gasket, I completly agree with you on the lack of record keeping for private sales.

RH

If the FFL was a big outfit they would have a listed phone number, no? The guy has been holding the gun for over a week and were it me I would be mighty pissed. I may not be in that position, but realize it is the seller's fault 100% that he failed to keep the buyer's name and address.

Buyer completed his end, FFL info and a postal money order. As stated earlier there is a reason PMOs are prefered... Shipping should be immediate as seller can get his money instantly without fear of fraud.

Buyer also provided all of the details seller is holding out for, but failed to keep... The whole deal is a very poor show IMO on the part of seller. Continuing to be a dick about it compounds the lack of basic business courtesy.

just to put wrench into works,what if buyer is felon scooped ffl number [what does ffl stand for] is seller in trouble if felon ends up with gun///////.norm

That is one of many reasons why BATFE no longer wants FFL copies sent or exchanged. They want the shipper to check the FFL eZcheck website and verify the FFL is current and the shipping address posted is the only one the seller may ship to.

The FFL receives the gun and does the background check.

When people insist on a hard copy of the FFL it is not to be trusted and does them no good.

Nonlicensed sellers are under no obligation to screen their buyers.
art

Remind me not to buy anything from pike3. --- Mel

By law the FFL is supposed to reject any firearm shipped to them without a clear understanding of who the gun goes to. So if you mail the rifle and the FFl gets it and it doesn't have a name on it he's supposed to send it back.

In my opinion...ship the gun posthaste to the FFL Attn'ing it to the buyer. Make sure you include a copy of your drivers license info so the FFL can enter it into his boundbook. Get tracking info/insurance on the item and if it arrives to the FFL in good condition,you've completed your obligation...end of story.

This is traditionally how it's done, if you expected different you should have stated that from the beginning.

edited to add: If the signed-in-ink FFL was with the payment, it's the buyer/FFL's responsibility to coordinate it.

Ditto...Also your bank can call the P.O. & verify the numbers & amount for usps M.O.'s
Send the gun. But do a verification of the ez check with the atf.

If it really "torks" you then send a priority mail letter to the FFL explaining the situation and ask that they call you. Just a thought...

I sent the MO on behalf of the buyer. Pike ask for the buyers info,the buyer and i myself have been realy realy busy and are in no grand fizz to get the rifle,iam sure Mr Pike is good as gold as far as trust goes. So as soon as i can get up with the buyer ill get it to Mr Pike. No fight or fuss here. If it makes Pike feel better to have the buyers info that is his way of doing things,I have no questions. So he can hold the rifle until he is satisfide. All will work out and we will all be happy.

Comment not needed here, pike is only is asking for help and info.

This is my understanding also, so he need a name, address and phone number before he can do anything.

.

That is exactly correct...The dealer doesn't need a phone number but certainly does need an address and name... It also helps if the seller sends a copy of his or her ID, a Drivers License works, and or a pistol permit... It always helps to have your ducks in a row...

This is very true!

The FFL holder is not buying the gun, no bill of sale is required in this transaction and as has been stated there is not any record keeping required by the buyer or seller....just the FFL holder. When they receive the gun it is supposed to have with it the sender�s info (copy of DL works best), description of the gun.....make, model and serial number and a note stating it is for transfer to: ??????? This information is required for the transaction to be entered in their books. If they don�t have this info they are supposed to send the gun back. This is from the ATF to my FFL and he has sent at least one back.

You are doing the right thing by NOT shipping. I�d write a letter to the FFL asking for their help. My dealer keeps a record of guns that are coming in for transfer; make, model and who it�s transferring to, and would have the info you need.

It�s an honest mistake, don�t ship without the correct info.....write the letter to the FFL, I�d think you would hear from the buyer before long anyway.....

Just my not so humble opinion......

Dennis.

Show me the written law!...where is it in the USC or CFR's?

+1 Do it right eliminate hassels. Why mess around with BATF...been there done that. Over careful prevents problems.

LC

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is NO SUCH LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The law gives the FFL 7 days to enter a firearm after arrival. He needs to write name and address of shipper in his log. NOTHING states he must have any copy of any ID, nor do anything to verify shipper's ID. Just exactly HOW do you verify ANYTHING on a drivers license ID?

Send a pistol permit copy???????? If you just have to show folks you have one, get after it...

Once again the clueless jump in and start giving advice they are completely unqualified to deliver!

Blackwinch
While your methods are within the law there are a huge number of points you say MUST be done and virtually none of that is correct as far as the law goes.

Keeping records of other people's guns is absurd!

"If you are the purchaser you MUST, not should, MUST include a note stating that you are enclosing payment for the item you are purchasing and on what webiste or forum you found the item..."

Again, show me the law on that jewel... Identify the website? And where does the FFL log that in the bound book?

"As the Seller you MUST, not should, MUST put notification who the firearm is for so that the transfer dealer knows immediately that it is going to be entered into his books and is to be transfered to the purchaser."

If I knew as much as you about gun transfers I would be asking advice, certainly not giving it...

I am happy to dee the buyer chime in and say he is patient... Seller is lucky...
art

Law is one thing a comfy feeling is another thing.
I don't blame Pike for wanting at least a name in case there is an issue.

Craig36 will honor his commitment as I have sold him a rifle. He just isn't a big hurry and don't camp on the 'puter.

There is a dealer and a customer somewhere patiently waiting for this firearm to arrive.

The dealer has agreed to handle the transaction otherwise, his FFL would not have been released to you.

You have been paid. Man, this ain't rocket science!

I don't understand why people are still commenting on this thread. Craig36 said:
"I sent the MO on behalf of the buyer. Pike ask for the buyers info,the buyer and i myself have been realy realy busy and are in no grand fizz to get the rifle,iam sure Mr Pike is good as gold as far as trust goes. So as soon as i can get up with the buyer ill get it to Mr Pike. No fight or fuss here. If it makes Pike feel better to have the buyers info that is his way of doing things,I have no questions. So he can hold the rifle until he is satisfide. All will work out and we will all be happy."

End of story. This thread should be closed.
Jerry/AK

Jerry-
Hooked on phonics didn't reach everyone is what you were trying to say right? LOL...

I agree with you!

Jerry, I see where 99.5% of your post are on the classifieds. There's no surprise that you feel that you run the joint. It's OK, no problem.
One last thing, as you quoted Craig36 in your reply to my last post..... Craig36 is not the buyer, Craig36 is not the seller, and Craig36 is not the dealer.
I'll say no more.

I just bought a Kimber Montana from him with zero problems, good guy, good product and a pleasure to deal with.

I wouldn't ship it to an FFL until I knew the FFL would (1)accept it from a non-FFL, and (2)the FFL knew who the rifle was supposed to go to.
Lots of FFLs won't accept a gun for transfer from a non-FFL.
Now that the OP has created an issue by losing the purchaser's name and address, I think he's wise to contact the FFL any way he can and try to get things back on track.
Communication, communication, communication.

Sorry I'm so late commenting on this...I'd much rather have thrown this out there like yesterday when the subject was hotter, and caused more vessels to needlessly pop on people's necks.

What about "Murphy's Law" If he sends the gun to the FFL, the guy does not pick it up, so after a wile the FFL sells it. Who is responsible for the gun? The FFL or the Seller that cashed the money order?

BB
huh? (1) was NEVER mentioned in the whole thing and (2) who says the FFL would not know who got what rifle? He gave someone a specific copt of his FFL to receive a gun... It is not like the rifle would be coming from out of the blue...

Seems a lot of folks are wanting to complicate a VERY simple thing...

tracy
Internet posting while high is never a good idea... You can "what if" anything to death, but this is a stretch...
art shaking his head slowly...

Well lets put this one under the rugg. Mr Pike should have the info he was looking for this morning. If it makes him feel safer, its not any problem, i have just been busy and the buyer has also.Iam sure Pike will send the gun, he has been paid,I have no reason not to trust him,Sounded like a very nice fellow on the phone when we talked, i am the FFL holder,iam a smith and as we all know we do favors for friends,the buyer is a friend so i know just who it goes to,i can agree with everyones coments in someway that posted here, we all have our thoughts on things and i think that is what this Country is about. The good old USA. So lets all hang together so we can buy and ship guns and hope we can keep them. Freedom of Speech and The Right to Bear Arms. Thanks to all and lets let it pass. Craig36

Info received and the gun will ship today.

Sitka,
I am a CYA type of person, sorry if my commits bother you. we all can learn from the "what ifs", someone could have info for the question or commits. Just as craig36 said (i can agree with everyone's comments in someway that posted here, we all have our thoughts on things and i think that is what this Country is about)

I also re-fame from name calling and making negative comments on line.

I do however need to edit my post for spelling before I click submit

P.S. craig36, Welcome to the campfire....

(1) was never mentioned so we don't know if sender is an FFL holder or not and some FFLs will not accept a gun for transfer from an out of state non-FFL holder, period.

It's very possible that the FFL holder didn't know who was sending the rifle, or who was intending to take final delivery of it. This has happened at the FFL holder's shop that I deal with. I make certain he doesn't get a rifle sent to him without my getting ahold of him to let him know ahead of time...just common courtesy because I may carry a signed copy of his FFL with me for a year or more at a time, then use it when I buy something from out of state. I feel I have a responsibility to my dealer to let him know what's going on, or he will not feel the need to let me carry a copy of his FFL.

Uh...... Okay.................








Wow!