With all the talk of the new Chinese binoculars I can't help but wonder if we are witnessing the beginning of the end for the current high end optics manufacturers. I have not looked thru any of the new budget offerings, but too many respectable optics people have stated the quality is there. If the warranty service and durability issues are placated I don't see how the European manufacturer's will be able to maintain the status quo.

I don't think that the folks carrying the 2K+ Leica's, swarovski's and Zeiss are gonna give up their name sake BINS for Zen-Rays for a long time to come. While those of us a bit pragmatic about how we spend our money might consider some Zen's or Promasters, The big three have proven their worth, resale value, collectability and durability, ect. If you have the money, why chance it at this point and not go with a know commodity? When someone who does not read these forums (birdforum, et al.) goes to the store with 2K in their pocket and they see one of the big three (known names) and some off brand chinese name, I think name recognition at this point carries allot of weight. It may happen some day but not anytime soon in my opinion.

I won't believe until I see it. Everyone loves to hate the winners, and might even convince themselves the optical quality is there in the chinese optics when, in fact, it really isn't. I won't.

It doesn't take the proverbial brain surgeon to put quality parts together. Give them the parts combined with assembly skills and the wage differential and things could turn quickly.

Acceptance is another question, but 10 years ago how many knew what a Kia was.

What power does this "Kia" come in?

I believe both 4 and 6 cylinders

I am not giving up my 8 x 43 Victories anytime soon. I want to try the 7x36 ZenRay's however.

Right on! Good assessment.
Swaro, Zeiss and Leica have FAR too much going for them to have some Johnny-Come- Lately Chinese Optics company knock them off the ratings charts. Japan has been at the optics game since shorty after WW II, and Swaro, Zeiss and Leica are still strong; no way are Japanese optics going to destroy the Big Three, ever, nor are the Chinese optics going to do it either.

There will always be a place for the so called big three. They will just raise the price to pick up on declining market share and there will be those willing to pay. An example would be Krieghoff shotguns. Today they raise the price about 5% every six months to a year and still keep making their limited number of 500 shotguns per year. People are standing in line to buy each one.

In reality it is a $5,000 shotgun that they sell for $10,000. The advantage Krieghoff has is that they can charge more for one with a bunch of gold chickens on the sides, top and bottom and in the process individualize the shotgun for a specific customer. The big three will have a harder time differentiating their product, but then they have more different optic variations to sell. As long as they maintain quality they will be there. However, fewer people will be willing to pay the price.

There are already lot of good binocs out there, that are priced less than Leica, Zeiss, and Swaro. Kahles, Nikon, Pentax, and Minox have not "ended" the big three yet, so I doubt some chicom binocs will either.

I don't think the Big 3 will fade away either, but with soaring personal credit card debt, a poor economy, etc it just makes sense people will save where they can. You gotta have gas and food, you don't have to have $2000 binos and $750 scopes to kill stuff. Wasn't it a few short years ago Leica filed bankruptcy, or was considering it? I also highly doubt if Zeiss' sport optics division makes enough money to support the entire Carl Zeiss empire.

I'm buying one of the new Zen Ray 7x36EDs. I'm not a collector (thats what I tell myself), yet after that purchase I will have 6x30 Yosemites, 7x36 Zens, 8x32 SE, 8x42 Ultravids and 10x42 SEs. If the Zens are as good as reported on this and the birdforums, I don't know hat use I would have for the relatively heavy Leica's, I just might sell them.

I'm keeping an open mind on them, I'm not as sceptical as some on the Chinese ability to make a top of the line competitive bin at a much lower price. But to answer the OP question, I don't think any of the big three or four are going to fade away.

John

You will probably get most of your money back for your Leica`s.maybe even more than you paid. You buy the Zens and do not like them say goodbye to your cash.

I don't think the alpha glass has a lot to worry about now, at least from the ZEN ED class glass. They do probably have more concerns about the economic situation. They may have some decisions on how much they actually can charge for their product. The new Swarovski EL series has been reported to have a cost of nearly $4k, and it has been put on the shelf for awhile. They say for quality assurances in the manufacturing process. But I wonder if they do not have some trepidation about selling many at that price.

I think the first market reaction to the ZEN class is represented by the Bushnell Legend Ultra HD. This costs even less than the ZEN. The market adjustment, whatever it is, I think will scramble the mid range binoculars. Remember these cost about $400. I think people will look more toward the ZENS who were going to spend in that range in the first place.

Edit to add: The thing is that whatever product, comparisons are always made to the top tier. In the case of these binoculars, they are good enough optically that the best optical comparison is with the alpha, and not with anyting else in their price class.

I dunno what is going to happen with ANYTHING in this world economy,but one of the drawbacks of being over a half a century old is that you see a lot of 90 day wonders come and go,mostly barging on the scene under rave reviews,and with promises of getting more performance for "less".

Generally this turns out to be a faustian bargain.No doubt today we have better technology,and can get the optical performance of yesterday at cheaper prices today.

There are two aspects to optics instruments performance;the optical side and the mechanical side.I've found that great optics in rifle scopes and binoculars are worthless without mechanical reliability,and the one thing you can't tell about any optical instrument is how well it will stand up to actual field use,the rigors of travel,changes in altitude,rigors of hunting,etc.This comes only with years of use,and is only established by reputation and years of hard times afield.

I bought my first Zeiss Classic in 1980 for the princely sum of $750,used it continent wide for hunting for 19 years,until my eyes changed,phase coating came in,and it became obvious I could "see" better through the new technology glass.In 2000 when I sold them for $500,they were mechanically sound (still);I "rented" these binos for $250 bucks for 20 years,used them hard,and they taught me what good optical instruments were about.

Am I going to get that kind of performance from the Zen or any other binos costing 1/3 the price of a Leica, Zeiss or Swaro? I don't know,maybe.....

But what hunting I have left is too valuable for me to chance it,and worth far more than the cost of one or two top binos with a long track record for great optical and mechanical performance.The Big 3 ain't going anywhere soon IMHO.

I remember when the Simmons Prohunter scopes were supposed to be the latest and greatest scopes...

One look through them was a quick cure!

Although the ZEN, Promaster offer the most serious challenge to Big 3 on Optical quality, those big names will not go away any time soon. They are catering different groups of people. Just like Ferrari vs Audi R8. 3x in price difference with the same machine under different hoods. They seem to get along very well.

Bobin NH,

Ditto to your remarks on the Big 3.

I will really pay attention to the Chinese glass if it shows up with a technology or innovation not already found in the European or Japanese products.

How do you say Six Sigma in Mandarin?

jim

AMEN!

Jim: I dunno! But don't Leica's come with instructions written in Chinese as well as English?

I'm sure the Zen's and others similarly priced are gonna be great bino's.But I only have so much time; I don't wanna experiment much anymore

Though I beleive this is true (maybe) the problem is the the Teuronic bin makers started off as BMW, Mercedes and Audi but seem to be heading for Ferrari, Lamborgini and Gumpert. They're very different business models.

Another possibility is that sport optics as a small part of their business and the real money is in other optics (Zeiss is the best placed of the three for this).

The difference in this case is they survive the look ... they are good.

Great post Bob.

When I was a child it seemed everyone in my family hunting party used Zeiss Dialyt B series binoculars so they were one of the things I wanted most after college. I remember reading in the magazines about the B/GA T (Rubber Armored T* lens coated) 10x40s making a big splash right around that time � 1983 or so, and when I could finally afford them in 1987 that is exactly what I bought. I remember VERY well, because a friend bought a pair and lauded it over me, that the P* phase correction coatings appeared on these binoculars not long after that in 1988-1989. The only physical difference I recall in the glasses was that mine had a small �T� engraved opposite the focus ring and his a couple of little triangle/diamond thingies which I can only speculate were meant to be a prism These were really a great binocular for the time and the friend I gave them to several years back still uses them today.

After I made the gift of them I went with a Leica 8x32 BA as the smaller/lighter thing was the trend at the time. After only a season I knew these weren't for me so I traded them on a pair of 8x42 BN's. I love these and still have them and think they are optically still more than most could comprehend and probably the toughest design ever. They are heavy however...mine are right at 34 ounces with Butler Creek type flip up lens covers. What I found after a couple of seasons was that for my eyes and for real "all around" use I really prefer a 10x glass. I probably would have just gone to the BN 10x42 but was working in Kansas City at the time and received a Cabelas gift certificate as a Holiday gift so I decided to visit the new store there. It turned out they had the Zeiss 10x40 ClassiC B/GA TP on a special at $649. Applying my gift certificate and having them mailed to my home to avoid tax I ended up $549 out of pocket to replace my old companions and since then have used the heck out of them, in NA, SA, Eurrope, Africa and the Pacific Rim.

I do believe that technology has surpassed these great (Classic is a perfect description) binos in the form of the FLs and Ultravids ( I have both), but both my trucks have 10x40 ClassiCs in them for a grand total of $1189 for both pair from Cabelas.

The only equivalent bargain I�ve ever found on glass was the 3-9x40 Leupy Vari-X IIs I bought for $29 at a going out of business sale in the �80s.

I�ve reported here before my experience with Pentax, when they were the �equal of the Big 3� dejour. Based on that debacle, when even one pair, let alone an entire series, of these contenders to the crown has proven itself for decades in the field I may feel comfortable again in trusting a hunt to them.

The big 3 will continue to innovate and the Chinese/Japanese/Korean/whatever asian will continue to copy their designs and technology. About 2 dozen different manufacturers have binos that look like El's for goodness sakes and all are made in the Asian Rim.

For the Minox fans here one should not that they now have Chinese in addition to German an English on their website. AFAICT they don't make anything in Germany.

Steiners too have a big component product (and assembly?) plant in SW China.

So like our other people who avoid "made in china" stickers they may be using Chinese bins even when they don't have the "made in china" marking (assembled in Germany). Just like trying to build something that doesn't have fastners made in China or Fastex style connectors or any number of components.

The world has globalized guys. Get used to it.

Jim,

I have a question, and it is merely of a curious nature. I have no wish nor intention to seem argumentative.

My question is this, just what do you see as technological innovations in the alphas glass?

Now to serve to frame my point of reference, I will try to illustrate a couple of thoughts. With the exception of the Abbe Koenig prism system of the Zeiss FL, everything else from a $20.00 BSA or a Barska on up the quality scale is a Schmidt-Pechan roof prism. Technology has got us to the point where it is no longer either particularly technically demanding, difficult, or even expensive to build a binocular. Computer controlled CNC operations have seen to that, as well as a lot of industry wide optical experience. It just is not difficult to build a roof binocular anymore. Same with coatings. a lot of industry wide experience has really simplified coatings.

When Leica and Zeiss finally got a good handle on the Schmidt-Pechan roof prism and finally figured out how to properly phase coat a roof prism binocular, the alpha class glass had a serious technological and innovative lead. At that point (IIRC phase coated alphas showed up in 1988) it was a very technologically demanding process that required materials and knowledge that were proprietary secrets of the highest order, and did absolutely require a high degree of input from very highly skilled technical people to put it all together right. It was also expensive .

Pentax got the first technological intrusion with the first phase coated mid-priced binocular in about 1996 or thereabouts. We've seen mid priced steps up the ladder from non alpha manufacturers since. Pentax again with the DCF SP, Vortex with the Razor and now these Chinese entries.

So, we seem to be left with the advantage to the alphas in their use of the highest quality glass they can make, the best quality parts and engineering they are capable of, and by constructing the most durable binocular they can. That is a significant advantage I will grant, and I have never tried to say there was not superiority or even equality of the lesser binoculars, regardless of brand. I'm not sure if that is innovation or philosophy. That gap will probably shrink too.

However, the process of building the optic itself is not much of an innovation any more. It used to be, but everybody else caught up. The amount of innovation still possible is probably big, but we have just about gotten to the point where it is pretty easy to produce all of the optical quality the eye can use anyway.

As I said above I think these will impact the mid-price arena more than the alpha anyway. The comparisons to the alpha are the ones that get made, because, well they are the alpha, and it is the best comparison.

So if you like your alpha enjoy it. The whole point to these is to fill a need for decent optice below the very expensive glass. I can just about guarantee Zen Ray does dot see themselves as the next Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica.

Peace of mind from spending on product durability, longevity, and absolute top quality, in my mind anyway, is the real reason to justify an alpha purchase.

To the point of the original thread, the longevity of the alpha will hinge on "how much will people ultimately spend on an optic?" They have their advantage, how will they use it in the future?

Chinese copies of Rolex watches look real nice until the finish starts wearing off and they quit running after a few months.
Chinese riflescopes seem like a great deal until you look through them side by side with a top quality scope and then they break when you put them on a heavy recoiling rifle.
The Zen-Rays looked like a great deal until they fell from the seat to the floor of a Safari truck and were out of action for the rest of the hunt.

I don't see why the chinese can't manufacture some of these items to the same standards as the top brands, they just haven't done it yet.
They make computers, telephones and just about everything else now but I have yet to see them make an optic that truly compares in quality AND durability to the big 3 and a few others for that matter.

I actually hope they do. I'd a lot rather be paying a lot less for equal quality but it hasn't happened yet. I don't think the big 3 are much worried..........................DJ

Just remember when Hyundai (I know it's Korean) burst on the scene in the US maybe 15 yrs ago ( I forget exactly). They were a piece of crap. Nowadays tells a different story, as they make some of the most reliable vehicles made. They were a joke then, but now they have Toyota nervous, and they have admitted it. Like many others I said when I first heard of these chinese super binocs that time will be the ultimate judge. They do at least have the optics part of the equation figured out though. Optical engineers (koshkin), JB and other experts have proven this part to be true already.

How come you're looking for a Zeiss spotter, not something offered by Zen-Ray?...

FYI, I use Lecia Trinovid 10x42's, and true, I want a Zeiss spotter. Now tell my why it's any of your business.

None of my business, just curious why if the "experts" say Zen-Ray is so great, why anyone would look elsewhere?

You do savvy this thread was referring to the binos, not spotters, right? And the experts are talking "optically" since that's really all that is known right now, got it? And I do consider Koshkin and JB experts and that's who I was referring to. What else can I answer for you?

Their spotters don't make par, but their binos do?

That would be the consensus thus far.

It doesn't take a genius to search various major outdoor and shooting forums to see what people are saying about them. I won't explain it to you since I've never looked through them.

My point being, Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski are known quality goods and the chances of Zen-Ray (or any variation thereof) putting them out of business is about as likely as me waking up tomorrow to CNN reporting that Obama's birth certificate was located and he was declared ineligible to be POTUS.

If you'd take the time to read what I've said in this thread all the way through you'd find we agree on that. It would have saved you from asking me a dumbass question.

Dumbass previous post I guess.

Feel free to put me on ignore and mind your own business now.

FWIW, I hear Zen-Ray's offering 20% off new orders.

Neither will put the other out of business and there will be a market for all. However the mid level participants because of labor cost advantages can and probably will someday in the not distant future make some question how they spend their fun dollars.

It's just history repeating itself in a different arena.

All this makes me think that today our very own Leupold is the best deal currently offered with an acceptable price combined with multiple relevant products, quality and service.

When the established optical experts refer to the different brand names that come out of the same factory in China, Japan or other Pacific Rim countries doesn't that make you question the company who's name is on the product? These companies are not optical development companies, but marketing companies who are selling a product made for them by another production company in China or Japan... Ever wonder why so many optical products look alike? Bingo.... Look real close at the MINOX 15x58 and the Vortex Kaibab 15x binocular� As Sgt. Shultz would say� �Veeeeery Interesting��.

So, would you folks who are pledging allegiance to these marketing companies tell me what optical innovation they have ever brought to the market? Kind of hard isn�t it�. The European manufacturers actually have R&D departments� FYI�That stands for Research and Development � while the oriental manufactures have R & D people also�but their R & D stands for Reverse-engineer and Duplicate� A huge difference!

And not all European optical companies are equal� Leica and Zeiss have upgraded their binoculars multiple times while the Swarovski EL in current form is over a decade old design. Ovis_Chaser

So what's your point? I should be prepared to pay 4X to support the R&D activities of the Big 3 versus 1/4 for a quality knock off? In the end the market sorts these things out. For example, pharmaceuticals. The big names make their money by getting out there first and charging what the market will bear until patents expire and the generics take over. As for me, if I have a choice of paying $100 for a brand name prescription or $10 for a generic, I think I will take the generic. I guess what I am saying is that it takes all kinds of suppliers to make a market work, I don't see the Big 3 going anywhere. I also think the "fast followers" that try to take a product and redesign it to meet a lower price point in the market have their place too. I just ordered a pair of the Zen Ray ED's and suspect that Leica could really care less.

I don't think the new Chinese stuff is going to put the Big Three out of business--but it sure may shake them up. They are already exploring ways to make binoculars (and other optics) cheaper. A lot of people assume the Zeiss Conquests are German scopes, but the majority of the parts (including lenses) come from the Czech Republic. The Leica rangefinders are put together in Portugal.

Some of the other name European "manufacturers" have already branched out quite a bit. Minox makes no secret that their stuff is only engineered in Germany, but made elsewhere, but others aren't so open about it. The next time you examine a Euro-optic you're interested in, look to see if it actually says "Made In Germany" (or wherever) on it.

I have been testing the Zen Ray and Hawke binoculars for several weeks now--and I own enough of the recent "alpha" stuff to directly compare the optical quality. The people who've been posting that the Chinese glass can't compare without looking through a Zen Ray or Hawke are in for a big surprise if they ever condescend to actually put their eyes on one.

The big question now, of course, is how will they hold up? I haven't been always impresed with how some binoculars from the Big Three have held up, but some models do. I also know (from long experience) that some other binoculars from less expensive factories not only rival some alpha stuff optically but really take a licking. Meopta comes immediately to mind.

Then there's the example of al the Japanese junk that came out after WWII--and the fact that a Japanese automaker is now the biggest in the world, with a superb reputation for quality. The Japanese just about own the professional photography market as well. "Never" can be a very fleeting length of time.

I'd rather commit an illegal act with a farm animal that use a pair of binos made in china....jorge

15-20 years ago for a short time China imported a car to the US. As I remember it looked like an aborted Kubelwagan and sold like dirty diapers. It quickly disappeared from American dealerships. China still makes lousy cars, one just got a "0" on it's crash test in Europe (which of course isn't stopping GM and Chrysler from trying to import them), I don't think they've gotten the car thing down yet like the Japanese have. The Chinese can certainly manufacture computers and other consumer goods to high quality levels.

We'll see if they've started to make better optics that will stand up to a little abuse. I hope they have but I'll beleive it when I see it and they've proven they will hold up a at least a couple years..................................DJ

It will never matter to me that they may be or get to the point of being almost as good as the top three because the top three will always be better and I will pay the difference in price for the superior product-its nice to be able to own the very best of something!

Whoa! So that means you have considered it?
TMI

I took him to mean he is too busy with animal husbandry to look for a new pair of binoculars.

But this is the internet, so I may have misunderstood.








Sycamore

I'll go along with Bob on this one. Being able to see the tiniest detail on an optical chart isn't the one and only thing that we should seek in our optics.
I recall very clearly that while my nice light, cheap, 6X30 Leupold Yosemites were no where near as good as my 8X42 Leica, the heavy Leicas didn't see near the field use that the Leupold or my 8X32 Nikon LX did. I've got a Pentax SP 8X43 that is very close to my 8X42 Leica. So close that it takes me a while to see even the tiniest difference after stacking both. As far as field results, the only difference between the two is a result of the Leica being much heavier.
This is something that has coming for sometime. I don't know about how tough the latest bins are, but we do know that the Nikon LX are every bit as tough as the so called big three. In fact, I understand that 458 Win has found them as good as anything even under his very tough conditions. E

Keep your China optics..

I'll stick with my 10x40 Classics, 65mm Diascope, and 1200LRF.

Whether one believes in the Darwinian theory of evolution or not, science has shown us that species have become extinct, as they could not adapt to change. The business world has experienced a similar phenomen.
Should the big 3 become as complacent as GM, Chrysler etc, they will suffer the same fate.
I am more than happy with my Zen ED's and would never consider paying more for a bino. I wish they had been made in the West, but the bottom line is that they provide me with top quality optics at a price that I can afford.

If one believes in adaptation, then you can look ahead to Euro companies surviving as government services...like GM...

I imagine if the Chinese equal the quality, the Euros will survive simply by raising their price point well above the Chinese....you can count of a certain percentage of folks (once having paid the big bucks) to evangelize the product religiously...and another certain percentage to always equate desired outcome with price.

The chinese "cheap labor" advantages are quickly coming to an end. The Euros will be at the forefront of innovation in optics and the asians will continue to copy it but remain a step behind. That "step behind" technology is probably more then what is needed by 99% of all Birders and Hunters but nevertheless the big three have that advantage and brand image.

The big three also realize that demand for their products from the current generation of hunters in the US and Europe is literally a dying proposition. They are trying to maximize profits before that happens. I will stick with European optics for now.