Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Beginning of the end for the big 3?

Feel free to put me on ignore and mind your own business now.

FWIW, I hear Zen-Ray's offering 20% off new orders.

Neither will put the other out of business and there will be a market for all. However the mid level participants because of labor cost advantages can and probably will someday in the not distant future make some question how they spend their fun dollars.

It's just history repeating itself in a different arena.

All this makes me think that today our very own Leupold is the best deal currently offered with an acceptable price combined with multiple relevant products, quality and service.

When the established optical experts refer to the different brand names that come out of the same factory in China, Japan or other Pacific Rim countries doesn't that make you question the company who's name is on the product? These companies are not optical development companies, but marketing companies who are selling a product made for them by another production company in China or Japan... Ever wonder why so many optical products look alike? Bingo.... Look real close at the MINOX 15x58 and the Vortex Kaibab 15x binocular� As Sgt. Shultz would say� �Veeeeery Interesting��.

So, would you folks who are pledging allegiance to these marketing companies tell me what optical innovation they have ever brought to the market? Kind of hard isn�t it�. The European manufacturers actually have R&D departments� FYI�That stands for Research and Development � while the oriental manufactures have R & D people also�but their R & D stands for Reverse-engineer and Duplicate� A huge difference!

And not all European optical companies are equal� Leica and Zeiss have upgraded their binoculars multiple times while the Swarovski EL in current form is over a decade old design. Ovis_Chaser

So what's your point? I should be prepared to pay 4X to support the R&D activities of the Big 3 versus 1/4 for a quality knock off? In the end the market sorts these things out. For example, pharmaceuticals. The big names make their money by getting out there first and charging what the market will bear until patents expire and the generics take over. As for me, if I have a choice of paying $100 for a brand name prescription or $10 for a generic, I think I will take the generic. I guess what I am saying is that it takes all kinds of suppliers to make a market work, I don't see the Big 3 going anywhere. I also think the "fast followers" that try to take a product and redesign it to meet a lower price point in the market have their place too. I just ordered a pair of the Zen Ray ED's and suspect that Leica could really care less.

I don't think the new Chinese stuff is going to put the Big Three out of business--but it sure may shake them up. They are already exploring ways to make binoculars (and other optics) cheaper. A lot of people assume the Zeiss Conquests are German scopes, but the majority of the parts (including lenses) come from the Czech Republic. The Leica rangefinders are put together in Portugal.

Some of the other name European "manufacturers" have already branched out quite a bit. Minox makes no secret that their stuff is only engineered in Germany, but made elsewhere, but others aren't so open about it. The next time you examine a Euro-optic you're interested in, look to see if it actually says "Made In Germany" (or wherever) on it.

I have been testing the Zen Ray and Hawke binoculars for several weeks now--and I own enough of the recent "alpha" stuff to directly compare the optical quality. The people who've been posting that the Chinese glass can't compare without looking through a Zen Ray or Hawke are in for a big surprise if they ever condescend to actually put their eyes on one.

The big question now, of course, is how will they hold up? I haven't been always impresed with how some binoculars from the Big Three have held up, but some models do. I also know (from long experience) that some other binoculars from less expensive factories not only rival some alpha stuff optically but really take a licking. Meopta comes immediately to mind.

Then there's the example of al the Japanese junk that came out after WWII--and the fact that a Japanese automaker is now the biggest in the world, with a superb reputation for quality. The Japanese just about own the professional photography market as well. "Never" can be a very fleeting length of time.

I'd rather commit an illegal act with a farm animal that use a pair of binos made in china....jorge

15-20 years ago for a short time China imported a car to the US. As I remember it looked like an aborted Kubelwagan and sold like dirty diapers. It quickly disappeared from American dealerships. China still makes lousy cars, one just got a "0" on it's crash test in Europe (which of course isn't stopping GM and Chrysler from trying to import them), I don't think they've gotten the car thing down yet like the Japanese have. The Chinese can certainly manufacture computers and other consumer goods to high quality levels.

We'll see if they've started to make better optics that will stand up to a little abuse. I hope they have but I'll beleive it when I see it and they've proven they will hold up a at least a couple years..................................DJ

It will never matter to me that they may be or get to the point of being almost as good as the top three because the top three will always be better and I will pay the difference in price for the superior product-its nice to be able to own the very best of something!

Whoa! So that means you have considered it?
TMI

I took him to mean he is too busy with animal husbandry to look for a new pair of binoculars.

But this is the internet, so I may have misunderstood.








Sycamore

I'll go along with Bob on this one. Being able to see the tiniest detail on an optical chart isn't the one and only thing that we should seek in our optics.
I recall very clearly that while my nice light, cheap, 6X30 Leupold Yosemites were no where near as good as my 8X42 Leica, the heavy Leicas didn't see near the field use that the Leupold or my 8X32 Nikon LX did. I've got a Pentax SP 8X43 that is very close to my 8X42 Leica. So close that it takes me a while to see even the tiniest difference after stacking both. As far as field results, the only difference between the two is a result of the Leica being much heavier.
This is something that has coming for sometime. I don't know about how tough the latest bins are, but we do know that the Nikon LX are every bit as tough as the so called big three. In fact, I understand that 458 Win has found them as good as anything even under his very tough conditions. E

Keep your China optics..

I'll stick with my 10x40 Classics, 65mm Diascope, and 1200LRF.

Whether one believes in the Darwinian theory of evolution or not, science has shown us that species have become extinct, as they could not adapt to change. The business world has experienced a similar phenomen.
Should the big 3 become as complacent as GM, Chrysler etc, they will suffer the same fate.
I am more than happy with my Zen ED's and would never consider paying more for a bino. I wish they had been made in the West, but the bottom line is that they provide me with top quality optics at a price that I can afford.

If one believes in adaptation, then you can look ahead to Euro companies surviving as government services...like GM...

I imagine if the Chinese equal the quality, the Euros will survive simply by raising their price point well above the Chinese....you can count of a certain percentage of folks (once having paid the big bucks) to evangelize the product religiously...and another certain percentage to always equate desired outcome with price.

The chinese "cheap labor" advantages are quickly coming to an end. The Euros will be at the forefront of innovation in optics and the asians will continue to copy it but remain a step behind. That "step behind" technology is probably more then what is needed by 99% of all Birders and Hunters but nevertheless the big three have that advantage and brand image.

The big three also realize that demand for their products from the current generation of hunters in the US and Europe is literally a dying proposition. They are trying to maximize profits before that happens. I will stick with European optics for now.