Last week I broke down and ante'd up the cash to purchase a pair of Swarovski 10x42 EL binos. Everybodies' help was much appreciated in my search. Next on the agenda is a top notch spotter. I'm thinking Swaro, or Leica. It will be a year or so before I can save the $$$, so I have plenty of time to research. I'm thinking something with a 60mm Obj. 20-60 power range. I'm equiping myself for a Sheep hunt that is on my bucket list. Any thoughts/experiences would be appreciated.

First question: When talking about Swarovski is the HD version really worth the extra $600? I see I can get a ATS 65 from Doug for around $1500, while the HD version is $2200.. any thoughts?

Before you buy anything in that class check out the Kowa Prominar 663/664. Fantastic glass for less $$$. To answer your last question. Buy the HD if you're into taking pics through the spotter. Otherwise it's debatable if it's worth it IMO. 60x is rarely usable in 65mm class spotters.

Davis I think your right on track. I have a zeiss 65mm with 15 to 45 power eye piece and I am amazed how often I can use the 45 power. I think the swaro with the 60 power eye piece would be ideal.

Dink

JGRaider....Have you used one of these Kowa spotters? Get a chance to do a side by side comparison with a comparable unit?

Thanks

I have a Kowa and love it. Go to a highpower match sometime and you will see that the line is full of them.

Kowa, for all its quality is rarely if ever advertised in the gun rags but is hugely popular with birdwatchers.

Maybe Mule Deer will put his 2 cents in on them.I hope so.

Interesting thread as I am in the market for one as well. THinking Zeiss 65 with Lotutec but never considered Kowa. Selling some stuff to get funds, in next 30 days or so am pulling the trigger.

Just keep in mind that all Kowas are not the same. I don't recall the exact model that is common among high power shooters, but IIRC it sells in the $800 range (TSN?), considerably less than the high end Euro scopes and the Prominar. I have never looked through a Prominar, but a buddy has a Kowa and I have looked through it on the firing line along with Leicas and Zeiss, and the Kowa isn't in the same league. I have seen one review of the Prominar by folks whose opinion I respect, and they say the Prominar is the new gold standard, edging out their former favorite, the Zeiss.

I'm not sure why the Kowa is the scope of choice among HP shooters, but I suspect that it meets their spotting needs at a reasonable price point. Watching mirage and seeing target disks are not the most demanding tasks for a spotter. Birdwatching is a whole different league, as is trophy assessment.

Paul

Check out this website, http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php, written by Ilya Koshkin, who posts on Optics Talk Forum. He covers spotting scope, binos and scopes by price categories. He is an optics engineer and a shooter, and has posted reviews of what's new at the Shot Show. Also, http://www.birdwatching.com/optics.html, a birdwatching site, for reviews of spotting scopes. Be aware that birdwatchers prefer angled scopes for comfort, since they tend to be looking up, whereas shooters often prefer straight scopes because they tend to be looking straight ahead, but the desirable optical qualities are similar. In both sites Kowa Prominars are top rated, along with Leicas, Zeiss and Swarovski. The Prominars use a special fluorite objective which results in unsurpassed resolution. The Vortex Razor has also gotten some great reviews at a lower price point, but I don't know if it comes in 65mm size. If you're seriously looking at top glass, you'll want to try them out for yourself, as you may prefer the "look" or "feel" of one scope to another, and that is something only you can decide.

I've looked through a Kowa 663 (the angled model) as my taxidermist had his Swaro 65 non HD. Maybe not a fair comparison, but I preferred the view through the Kowa. Kowa Prominar vs Swaro HD or Zeiss Fl may tell a different story, but the Kowa is world class glass for sure. I prefer sraight eyepieces (Kowa 664) myself.

I've posted this before, and it bears repeating. Pay close attention to the eyepiece, especially eye relief. Don't take the manufacturers' eye relief specs for gospel, look through them yourself if possible.

I sense that, from a marketing standpoint, a big honkin' objective lens has customer appeal. But in terms of overall function, a quality eyepiece is at least as important. It may be that some manufacturers cut quality in the eyepiece to hold a price line.

A big part of the appeal of the Kowas for HP competitors is the availability of the 27X LER eyepiece. It seems like a great balance of power and ease of use for that type of shooting.

Just another $.02 from me.

Paul

To take that one step farther....Given the same quality glass, a 85mm class spotter will resolve better and give more detail than a 65mm class spotter every time. Physics at work. It may not make any practical difference when hunting, but it is there.

That's the key, or sometimes the catch.

Paul

Ok,

Tell me again why the HD version is worth more than the non HD. I'm not really getting it. I was surfing Doug's website. He has a Swarovski ATS65 with 20-60 eyepiece for $1499.00 The HD version is $2049.00 without eyepiece, which cost $699. So I ask you is the HD worth $1200???? Somehow I doubt it. Convince me!

I have never looked at a swaro HD so take this for what its worth. I have been told several times that if you don't take pictures through your spotting scope you will never need HD. I have been told there is a very slight difference between HD and non-HD to the human eye but in a hunting/shooting situation you will never need the HD.

Dink

Ok I know these prices are closeout deals, and aren't going to last for long. I'm tempted to max out the CC and get this non HD model Swarovski. someone talk me into the HD so I will wait?!!!

Ok,

Doug could you weigh in on this delima? Is the HD model worth the extra $1200? I plan on using this for a sheep hunt in the not too distant future.

Davis the HD model is not worth it in my opinion. I have looked through leica's and there is a difference but not that kind of money difference.

Call Doug he will tell you the same thing I think.

Dink

JG, I can't seem to find a price on the Kowa Prominar; I found the 66mm on line though.How much are they?

Opticsplanet had the 663/664 Prominars with zoom for about $1100 package deal the last time I looked.

shato, you really have to ask yourself "is the Swaro HD worth it"? Not trying to be repetitive, but you can buy some fantastic HD spotters for far less money. You won't see things through a Swaro HD that you cannot see through a Zeiss FL, Leupold GR HD, Kowa 663/664, or a Nikon Fieldscope ED. Now you may like the ergos, FOV, etc of one over another but all of these have fantastic glass. Swaro has the reputation of being on the high end of the price scale, and to me there are too many great options to consider.

HD glass handles color fringing better than non HD glass. As mentioned before, this is particularly critical if you're into digiscoping. I'd buy one of the others I mentioned, all HD/ED spotters and save over $1000 in the process.

I don't carry a spotter hunting, only use it at the range.
So, I went straight to QUALITY glass, and an 80mm objectve, for reasons JGR mentions. Weight is a non-issue as I only carry it from the car to the shooting bench. I bought a fixed 30x, angled eyepiece. I had a 16-47x eyepiece on my last spotter and never used it above 30x. Above 40x was a real problem as there was image degredation. I've been using the new spotter for over a year now, and must say the image is spectacular.
Eye relief is very short, but all that's needed is getting used to it. Now, it's a non-problem.

I've been doing a bit of research and one scope that keeps showing up as the real deal for reasonable money is the Pentax PF80ED, particularly when paired with one of their XW eyepieces.

If you like fixed eyepieces, you ought to see the 30x wide angle on my Nikon 82ED. WOW! The Pentax is too long for my taste, but has great glass for sure.

The fixed 30x eyepiece on my Swaro ain't too shabby..
WOW +P
This is one upmanship at it's very best...LMAO

My dog can beat your dog in checkers.....

No denying the fact that the Swaro spotters are super good.

In a year or two the game will change. Leica will be discounting their 82/65mm class for their new 85/70mm class. Swarovski will be reducing their numbers of magnesium in exchange for titanium bodies, ect...etc,...


Nikon EDG, Pentax ED, Kowa Prominar, Swarovski A/STM, Leica Televid APO, Zeiss Diascope....take your pick.

JG: Thanks.

I just ordered a Kowa TSN-603 and will let you know my review in a couple days.

The HD is beter for sure! Is it worth the extra money? That is for you to decide. I have the STS HD 80 and it is phenominal in my opinion! For a hunting application I wouldn't have the ATS (angled).

Glad U got a good sense of humor!!!
I wuz just funnin..
Lots of great spotters available, like the Kowa's U mention. I went to Camp Perry National Matches one year 'cause my oldest son shoots High Power in those Matches. All U see on the line are Kowa's; Kowa's everwhere. That has to tell U something when everone is using them.
I have no place to go to comapre spotters up here, so I decided that Swaro was the one for me. Swaro had just done me a Huge service by having a PF 6x42 scope shipped in from Europe just for me. The PF 6x42 isn't sold in the US, so I called Swaro in Rhode Island and asked if they could get me one. They said yes, and two weeks later I had the scope at my house. I appreciate that kind of good service, so I bought their spotter. Few companies would go out of their way to do what Swaro did for me, and I never forget who served me well. If there's ever a choice in optics I want, I go Swaro. Loyalty is important to me. Sure, some other high end spotter "may" be better in some way, but I can live very well without that "some way".

Couldn't agree more DMB. You know what you're getting with Swaro for sure. The performance of those Kowa's are phenomenal, but I do wonder how tough they'd be in actual hunting/field use. I wonder why you never see them "out there" being used by guides/outfitters/hunters? I can't say I've ever seen one while hunting. I've really come to like the helical focus ring like you have on that Swaro, and on my Nikon 82ED.

Went through a similar decision process a while ago. I was in a position to buy whatever I found to be best (for me). After a ton of research and a lot of hands on comparison, I ended up with a Kowa 663 Prominar. It keeps good company with my FL's.

I wonder why you never see them "out there" being used by guides/outfitters/hunters? I can't say I've ever seen one while hunting."


Very simple......Advertising!

Don, not trying to start a pizzing match, but as I've said before, all that tells you is that they work well for the HP game, and that is not a particularly challenging application for a scope. Plus, competition shooters tend to follow the crowd, not that that's a bad thing.

Nothing personal, but over the years I've never found "all the ---- use it" to be particularly helpful in choosing my personal equipment, particularly optics and sights.

Paul

What really got my attention was the birdwatcher's reviews. You know, the guys that like to look at mites on a robin's ass

http://www.livingbird.org/netcommunity/bbimages/lb/pdf/ScopeChart2008.pdf

I used birdwatcher's sites/forums as one of my resources also. I believe they are amongst the most critical and technically astute optic nuts on the planet. They go far beyond "this is what I think" or "based on a 5 minute side-by-side comparison.....". Very objective and analytical.

That last word was far too long...the first four letters would've sufficed, when describin' birders and their glass.

Paul,
I think that viewing bullet holes at 100, 200, up to 1000 yards at Camp Perry is no different from viewing bullet holes at my range.
Testimony is of merit, and the fact that so many people use KOWA scopes at Camp Perry is about as good a testimony one gan get when considering a Spotter purchase.
If that doesn't work for you, fine. It works for me.

I would not have a spotter without it (HD). In dicey lighting conditions, I think one gets better contrast, less CA and flare.

FWIW I'm a Leica fan.

Good point about the (HD). I got the Swaro ATS 80 with (HD).

Don, I'm not a HP competitor, but do they actually spot bullet holes at up to 1000 yards, as opposed to disks? In the black? I find that hard to believe.

That Swaro of yours is about as good as it gets. Have you ever set it up side-by-side with the Kowas that you usually see on the line? Not the Prominar, but the TSN or whichever model they use. Seems to me they would be in different leagues altogether.

My Zeiss 85 is pretty good, but I've yet to see range conditions where I could reliably see bullet holes at longer ranges, and especially in the black. Of course light conditions, etc., make a lot of difference.

Some of the toughest spotting I've ever encountered has been on black Schuetzen ring targets, .22 holes at 100 and 200 yards. Tough with my Zeiss, just about impossible with friend's Kowa (side-by-side comparison).

I'm not saying the traditional Kowas aren't fine scopes, but I just don't see them as a benchmark against which to judge other scopes. Looks like the new (Kowa) Prominar has claimed that spot. I'd like to take a look through one, but it would probably spoil me!

Paul

Well Swaro got me again!! With them discontinuing the ATS line for the ATM line, there are some bargains out there. The difference is basically 4oz I think. They're using Magnesium now in place of Aluminum. Doesn't matter to me. Anyway I was seriously contemplating the closeout deal for the non-HD version that Doug at Cameraland has.

Well, I made a comment to my dad that I was thinking of buying it but I was worried that I would wish I got the HD. So he asked why not find a closeout HD model. I said there weren't any. Which led to him pulling up a supplier he knows, who low and behold had 3- 65mm HD Swaro STS models on closeout specials ($1450).....Needless to say I hope my wife doesn't see this months credit card bill. I had no intentions of buying a spotter so closely after buying the Swaro Binos, but the closeout prices hooked me!

You won't regret it after you look through it. They're first rate. Was the eyepiece included in that price?

Raider,
No the eyepiece was extra. Still thats about $600 savings!

First, I have to say I am a died in the wool Swaro fan, owning bino's and scopes of theirs.

With regards the Swaro spotting scopes, the HD models had very mixed reviews over here when they first come out. When the HD option was introduced, it was universally seen as an improvement worth paying for, fully bringing the Swaro spotters in line with Zeiss and Leica.

With Zeiss and Leica, the introduction of HD type optics was percieved to be a smaller improvement; worth it if you were digi-scoping, but less clear cut for ordinary users.

So before buying the Swaro, I'd want to compare the HD and none HD models side by side, preferably out side in less than ideal light conditions.

With regards the Prominar, they are very highly rated over here too, but the price is much more comparable to the top end Euro scopes. I would also add the new top end Nikon, as that too is getting excellent reviews in the birdwatching press...

Pete:
Is the Nikon EDG spotting scope available in the UK? I know the
Edg bin, was only available in the US and now coming to Europe.

Good to hear about the Nikons, I have a Nikon 60mm Fieldscope and
really like it, and also I have a Nikon 10x42 EDG and they are first rate.

Good discussion here.

Jerry