A week or so back, I received 3 CDS elev dials from Leupold. Yesterday I was able to test the 5500' ele dial.

Purpose built Alaska Pre 64 M70, Custom by Lee Christianson (Redneck) and Charley Santoni
D'Arcy Echols Legend stock by McMillian
9.3x62
250 Accubond running 2606 fps, .8 MOA, 5 SD (60 gr Varget)
VX3 1.75-6x32mm with standard duplex reticle
CDS dial was marked for 2606 fps, 50 deg F, 5500' elev


Sighted @ 200 yds, 5144' elev, 50 deg, 24.38 baro

Shooting condition:
34 deg F
6565' elev
22.9 baro
6-13 mph winds switching from 9 to 4 from mostly from 7 to 5.
Fired from prone off 6-9" Harris bipod and rear sand bag.


Out to 350 yds, I had zero problems hitting any of the plates.

300 yd pig


The turkeys, @ 385 yds needed the dial turned to 400 yds

385 yd turkeys


The 400 yd plate needed the dial turned to 420 yds to get hits.


I got numerous hits on the 8" plate on the left @ 400 yds. We call this set up "Know Your Limits".


The 500 yd plates/Rams were a bit more of a challenge. Even with a spotter directly behind me, he had to walk me in to get hits.

Had to dial up 550 to get hits @ the 500 yd ram.


Even though the dial had a number 6 on it, the dial would not turn past 550.

What confused me was that I was shooting @ 6565' and the sight in elev is 5144'. I should have been hitting high as the air is thinner.

I ran my Droid Shooter ballistic program

Sight-in day

Baro 24.38
temp 50 deg F
500 yd drop = 48.7"

Shooting day

Baro 22.9
temp 34 deg F
500 yd drop = 48.1"

I should not have been missing either the 400 yd plates nor the 500 yd rams, low.

What do you think is the issue; parallax or the dial? Possibly a bad 200 yd zero. I'll check it next week!

Alan

A friend emailed me and suggested I try a 100 yd zero. I originally ordered the dials to use with a 100 yd zero as seen here.


Being a tactical/sniper competitor, I fully understand and agree with the 100 yd zero concept with twisty turrets. In this case I used a 200 yd zero because I could only get 3/4 turn on the dial from 200 to 550-560 yds figuring I'd limit my max range 100 yds less.

With that said, I'll re-sight in my rifle for 100 yds and see where that takes me. Then I'll report back with my results.
The reason being is that the # of clicks/graduations between each 50 yd mark from 200-250-300 is 5. Between 300-350-400-450 their are 6 clicks each and between 450-500-550 their are 7 clicks each. And as you can see below, between 6 (600 yds) and 2 (200 yds) their are 8 marks. That means for me to have a 100 yd zero, I'll need to be two marks below the 6.

Here is the dials side


Alan

Good review.

I have a CDS scope but I haven't sent off for the custom turrets. I probably should but I can't see the need to right now.

It came with one MOA turret without a zerostop. I printed off a drop chart that I can go shoot and verify at various ranges. I also have some extra elevation to play with due to the non-zerostop knob.

Before I go hunting I can adjust the corrected chart for temp/alt/pressure and be pretty confident with the result.

Kudos to you for actually checking the settings though. I bet most CDS users have never checked the dial vs reality at longer ranges.

A friend of mine had the CDS setup with the yardages marked on his turret, same format as yours. He went to the range and his was off too. He originally told them his POI at 100 with all necessary data for them to crunch the numbers in THEIR ballistics program. Second time he supplied them with HIS data and it came out right. We use JBM with BCs suggested by Bryan Litz. We use G7 for many of our bullets. THEN we shoot at our silouette range doing exactly what you did. Dan supplied the finalized data and his setup is now correct.

I got my first CDS and tried various MOA comeups via JBM. At longer distances it shot fine with a front rest and rear bag. When I went to the bi-pod and rear sandbag it was off. The #2 barrel was slapping the fiberglass barrel channel with bi-pod installed! Some careful sanding to open up channel solved the issue. I am not saying your rig has issues but don't discount bedding, insufficient barrel clearance or some issue as a possible cause for your comeups not being correct.

As far as the turrets, I have no clue..

But I'll take that rifle, and I would love to have access to a range like that..

Could also be the B.C. of the Accubond being a bit "optimistic".

AZ

Rifle was sighted on the tripod so POI should not change; I think . It's totally free floated, glass/pillar bedded by the best (Charley Santoni). No need to worry about those issues.

Alan

Kenneth,

You too can have a rifle like mine. I'll point you in the right direction; to Redneck and Charley Santoni of CS Sports.

That's only a portion of our range, just South of Price, Utah. The North Springs complex has a 100, 600 (pics were taken there) and 1000 yd ranges. The police complex, where we shoot too, has automated pop up steel, running/turning targets; and a shoot house. The 600/1000 lines are enclosed on three sides and have propane heaters to ward off the cold winter temps; as does the police range. They provide elec golf carts and a Kawasaki Mule to run down and back or allow us to run our own vehicles down and back. Cost is $5 day for the whole complex that also has 3-D archery, a shotgun range, a world class SASS town and a camping area.

http://www.carbon.utah.gov/nssr/

Alan

Well, yeah! Then theirs that!

Alan

Wow that is great for the price we pay a lot more per year for a lot less. Cool range.

Hmmm...I have a CDS scope but haven't sent in my ballistics data yet. If the yardages are off, it may be just as well to stick with the standard clicks and put a chart on the stock.

that is the best range in utah that I know of based on the info and pictures. its too bad its about 130 miles from me, up spanish fork canyon, I hate driving that canyon.

I've been dancing with the idea of a CDS equipped Leup. I would shoot it extensively with the MOA turret, then have Leup make my yardage-calibrated caps from my data.

I'm doing a redneck version of that now with a few other scopes; a yardage scale superimposed on an MOA scale... it's a pretty slick setup once it's all working.

I kinda figured the rifle was sound but still worth mentioning.

Let us know how you resolve your issue.

Is the CDS only designed for one full revolution?

Are you kidding me?

That is a public range for 5 dollars? C'mon man your killing me.

The only real range close to me goes out to 300 yards and I'm glad to have access to that. All day will run you 25.00.

Just one hour is I believe 15.00.

As far as Lee and Charles, ya, so tempting..

I have two Leupold VX3 3.5-10 CDS scopes, one on a .280, the other on a 270 WSM. I carefully chronoed my intended loads before sending off for dials, and carefully sighted in at 100 yards, the zero distance I requested the dials for.

Result- accurate repeatability out to 400 yards. Both dials will give me range to over 650 yards, longer than I ever intend to shoot at game.

Pretty happy with the setup so far, but I can sure see setting both on 250 yd., and forgetting about them for most of my hunting.

Two of my rifles will never see any kind of turret setup on them- my .257 and .300 Wbys are so flat out to practical shooting ranges that it's just unneccessary.

"Practical range" is a malleable concept, prone to revision with lots of practice at longer ranges (and equipment upgrades). The impossible becomes routine, and once my hits at a given range get routine I'll start considering a shot on game at that range. At least that's how it's gone for me.

This may be a dumb question, but why the 100yd zero? Most sight at and inch or two high at 100 with a conventional scope, so why would that change?

Or does it reduce variation as you are closer to the natural flight of the bullet (not sure if that makes sense).

Bascially at the end of the day you want the dial at zero to be as close to the flight of the bullet at zero then work your way up together.

The whole concept of the CDS system is to be able to set the dial at whatever range your target is, and be dead-on. Whether your CDS dial is calibrated with a 100-yard zero or 200-yard zero is up to you at the time you provide the vital statistics (bullet weight, BC, MV, elevation, temp.)

200 yard zero is the way to go, the CDS dial does limit you to one turn, I sure wish they made the dial a bit fatter and allowed say 24 MOA in a turn and limited it to one turn. for my rifle I can get to about 800 in one turn.

i do 100 yd zeros on most all of my CDS scopes. the exception being the 6x36 with LR dotz and CDS. that retical is set up for 200/300 yard zero depending on the cartridge.

reason being, 100 yards is quick and easy to find just about anywhere to check zero, and if i want to hunt with a 200 or 250 yard zero, i just dial it and go hunting.

but i also run the generic moa knob and a range card instead of the custom knob. this knob doesn't have the 15 moa stop and changing the load is as easy as printing a new range card

100 yards is useful for turrets if you are running MOA dials. Your drop is affected by enviromental conditions (temp, pressure, elevation). Once you have them set up and tested for whatever elevation/elevation and zerod at 100 yards for say 200 ft elevation, you can swap out your dope sheet for a 8000 ft elevation and your data should be very close. Less close if you were using a 300 yard zero, as the trajectory from the muzzle to the zero range changes more.

GSSP,

I would try zeroing at 500 or so. Adjust your scope is it hits at "5". Then you should be closer at 600 and 700 then you are now, and your impact at 300 and 400 wont be off by that much. Or do the same thing and zero at 400 if you want it closer at the shorter ranges. Just a thought.

I can see spec'ing a 200-yd zero in this case to get more "up" out of the single turn the CDS is limited to*... but in general I much prefer a 100-yd zero on my turret-equipped rigs. Easy enough to click up to a 200-yd zero in the field if so desired.

*the zero stop is removeable

100yd zero for a flat-ahooting hunting rifle is silly. It might make sense for a police sniper, shots will likely be close and they may have to thread a bullet through a small opening. For big game, 200yd or a tad further is far better. With a flat shooting, high BC bullet at 2800fps plus that puts you within a couple inches of your line of sight out to 250yd.

GSSP- I'm new to the turret game, so I really have no knowledge to base this off of, but I'm wanting to do sorta the same thing as you did. That is, use CDS turrets on a rifle that doesn't exactly have super flat trajectory. In my case a .338 federal. While I like the 1.75x6, I'll probably go 2.5x8 or 2x7 VX-R. While browsing the Leupold specs on line, I noticed a big difference in adjustment range. The 1.75x6 shows 45 moa of adjustment, while the 2.2x8 shows 74 moa and the 2x7 shows 75 moa. I'm wondering if that has something to do w/ you running out of adjustment before reaching the long yardages? My thinking, and I'm not sure if I'm right, is that I would want the most adjustment possible on a cartridge whose trajectory is gonna require a lot of "come up" at longer ranges? The 1.5x5 shows 120 moa adjustment, and I already have 2 of those, but I think I want just a bit more magnification for this application. I guess my questions are: is the CDS turret the limiting factor, or is it the moa adjustment range of the particular scope model? second: if it says 45moa of adjustment, does that mean 22.5 moa up and down from zero or could you expect 45 moa of upward adjustment? or would it be something in between, based upon a 100 yard zero?

You don't have to hunt with your rifle turret set to 100 yards. You can have it zero'd at 100 and twist to 200 and hunt. I even run my whelen this way

I thought one of the features of the CDS was a zero stop. If you do as you describe, you won't be utilitizing that feature.

A friend of mine missed a chance at a LARGE buck last year 'cause he got "lost" on a 1/4min turret. He's now a big fan of zero stops.

Wyoguide,

Great thought! I just took the rifle out of the safe and 3x counted the clicks from bottom to top; 46 clicks which means 11.5 MOA. So I would say it's not the 45 MOA that is limiting the range of elev.

I hope to get back out on Saturday am and give it a zero of 100 yds then see what I can reach out to. It will be at a different range though. More like open BLM land. 45 mile drive vs 80 miles to the North Springs range.

Lots of great replies! Thanks.

Alan

Was this with the CDS turret on it? If so it is possible that your zero is only 11.5MOA from the end of the adjustment range. To really test, I think you would need to remove the custom dial and install the MOA dial. Then from you zero point, see how many clicks/what MOA you are from either "end" of the adjustment range. Does that make any sense?

TXRam,

You're on to something there! I replaced the 5500' elev dial with the original generic turret that has 15 MOA per revolution. I was able to back it down 39 MOA but going up I could only get 11.25 MOA. With a 200 yd zero, G1 BC and the weather condition I was shooting in on Saturday, 11.25 MOA would get me out to 555 yds.

With a 100 yd zero, it would get me to about 505 yds. As I said before giving myself a 100 yd zero would limit my max range the dial would give me; that's OK with me! Though running Nosler's suggested 1800 fps minimum for reliable expansion, a skootch over 600 yds would work and 1900 fps would put me at 525 yds.

Hopefully all the math will prove out on my next range visit to sight in at 100 and verify it all out to 500 yds.

Alan

I agrre with TXram It sounds like you are near the end of adjustment range.
Did you check the scope closely to see if 1/4 per click was accurate before ordering the CDS?

Not sure I follow your question?

Alan

If your scope isn't moving precisely a 1/4" with each click than it's not going to be accurate with whatever dial you put on it.

I'll more than likely run a 3 MOA box test @ 100 when I zero it.

Alan

Something you might not be aware of is that Leupold does have a Long Range version of the CDS dial. It allows for two rows of BDC data. The numbers are of course smaller and it does not have a zero return stop. But it does allow you to go out 1400 yards depending on the cartridge. You just remember where you are on the dial is all.

Typically yes but there is Long Range version availalble that allows two rows of BDC data on the dial. Less the zero stop it does allow to go twice the distance. Draw back is you could get lost in remembering where your at on the dial or you could run out of travel on that long distance shot. Depends on the scope, mounts and rings used.

Tommy,

Thanks! Didn't know this. With the 9.3x62 I doubt I'll be needing the LR dial version.

Alan

GSSP, Sorry for the unclear question on the 1/4 moa clicks. Cal74 got it correct, Does your POI move 1/4 per click?
As you said a box test should tell you about that. good luck.

There are a lot of circumstances where a 100 yd. zero makes sense, for instance-

Africa: Plains game might be at 300 yds, but more likely within 100 yards. A hundred yard zero, especially in brushy country, makes a lot of sense. If the game is small (steenbok, duiker, etc.) precise shot placement on a small target can be important.
Leopard, crocodile: Again, the ability to hold dead on and shoot with precision, at ranges of likely 100 yd. or less, could be critical. If on a multi-species hunt, not having to re-sight in a scope is at least an ammo saver.
Stand hunting: Whitetails, in heavily wooded country, or Texas, hogs and deer over feeders- again, 100 yd. or less may be the most common shot opportunity.

IMO, that 100 yd. zero just makes a flat shooter that much more versatile. Anyway, that's my rationale.

Sounds like you need a base with some elevation built in. Changing from a 100 to a 200 zero is not going to make any difference in the total scope travel that you have.

I run a 100-yd zero on any rifle that gets timber use. It's thick here, the killin' is usually close, and it's not uncommon to have to miss branches etc. That's WAY easier with the 100-yd zero.

(pop quiz: you are running a 2.5" high at 100 zero. Buck is 30 yards away, clear path to the vitals EXCEPT there's a branch bisecting the vitals. Where do you aim?)

But to the point, this point is moot with a normal turret. "Zero" is a floating concept. I like a 100-yd zero for the reasons above, plus it keeps zero setting and verification easy. But up where I hunt elk the timber is thinner and there's openings that allow for longer shots. So... a guy just reaches down, clicks his turret up 8 clicks, and now he's "zeroed" 2" high at 100 yards. His turret reads 2 MOA.

BUT, on a turret where one is limited to one revolution, AND the user can specify to the turret cap maker, if a person wants to max out their useful elevation in that one turn- THEN they can spec to Leup that the 15 MOA of travel starts at a 200-yd zero, rather than 100 yds.

I hope that makes sense. I feel like guys are kind of talking about different things here.

yea, trying to morph turrets and MPBR is silly IMO. the beauty of turrets is that you can dial elevation whenever you wish, so why not do just that? if you want MPBR, just dial it when you leave the truck.

but why set up a rifle so you can dial spot-on @ 775, but not at 100?

Well said- for simple minds like mine, my CDS system, sighted in at a 100 yd. zero, takes me all the way up to 650+ yards with a twist of the turret for the range I want to shoot at, calibrated for the caliber, velocity, and bullet weight etc. I'm using. Simple, simple, simple.

the .8 moa i'd save by going from 100 yard zero to 200 yard zero (7MM WSM/120 NBT) would gain me ~25 yards on the top end (past 800 yds)...

6 of one, half dozen of the other. Zero at 200 and then dial down 1.5MOA if you're hunting thick stuff, or zero at 100 and dial up 1.5MOA if you need max PBR when hunting open terrain...

I think dialing down would melt my brain. But that's just me.

At some point in the recent past, the use of turrets has been elevated to the level of rocket science.

Guessing that for some folks, anything more complex than simply looking thru a scope, and pulling a trigger, is brain strain.....

Turrets aren't hard, but they can be a paradigm shift for some folks, particularly those who like to zero a scope, then not touch it again. I about gave my elk hunting buddies a heart attack at elk camp the night before the season by just grabbing a turret and twisting it (to show them what I meant by using a turret to change elevation).... "You can't mess with that the night before opening day!!"...

It really is a different approach. There is no "zero" in the traditional sense.

If only wind was as easy as elevation. There's the real hurdle to shooting LR.

Because plus or minus two inches is insignificant on a big game (non-crocodile!) hunt, and if you are shooting a Leupold, with one of their excellent reticles (VH, B&C, LRD) it is designed to work best with a 200yd zero. I guess they are stupid also.

Huh????

Another publik skool grajuate.

Ok, I got some things done and some I didn't.

100 yd box test. I hadn't changed my 200 yd zero thus the high POI's. Started lower left, 3 pink hits, moved up 3 MOA/12 clicks = 3 green hits. Move right 3 MOA = 3 blue hits. Moved down 3 MOA = 5 black hits (2 high calls by me). Then back left 3 MOA = 4 orange/black hits. The paper has 1/2" boxes not showing up in pic.

I'm satisfied with the box test.


To be continued.

Alan

Ok, I'm back. Had some "Honey Do's" to do!

As I said earlier, I would re-zero the scope for 100 yds; NOT POSSIBLE! The way Leupold built the scope, I can't zero it for 100 yds. Here, I'll show you.

When the dial is removed, their is a small, upward protrusion as part of the elev housing. It's just above the small white line at the 6-o'clock position of the elev housing.





Then, when looking at the underneath side of the dial, their is a small steel bearing, implanted in the ceiling of the dial that butt's up against the small steel upright of the elev housing as it spins around. Thus, a 100 yd zero is not possible. In fact, when I get a 200 yd zero, verified again today, I barely have enough room to the get 200 yd zero. I can only go about 1/2 click below 200.




[img]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Pre%2064%20M70%2093x62/IMG_20110416_181926.jpg[/img]

Now, I was running out of time as I had to get home for the Honey Do list.

I put several shots on paper at 300 and 400.


For those wondering. I was chronographing over my Oehler 35P. 20 shots = 2604 fps with 31 ES and 8 SD so dial should line up with the data I gave Leupold.

But.....

When I tried to put it on my 15" wide x 27" high LV Steel silhouette @ 500 yds, not a hit. As I didn't have a spotter with me, and with the attenuating recoil, their was no way I could spot my own misses. I kept dialing up 1 click at a time until I ran out of ammo; Nothing, Nada, Nine, hits! I have a large, 4' x 3' card board backer but didn't have time to set it up before having to head home.

So, again, I'm very confident, I can get hits to 400. Beyond??????

Alan

PS,

Had some great scenary this am. Zero wind when shooting the 100 yd box.

that is the zero stop. the original moa knob probably doesn't have the zero stop (none of mine do), but the custom ordered knobs all seem to.

do you still have the moa knob?

i don't have a 9.3, but my .375 AI will get from 100 to ~600 with 15 moa

Toad,

I do have the original MOA knob. If this rifle were chambered in a LR caliber, or at least a caliper that I could use out to say 600 yds, I'd use the MOA know but the ballistics of a 250 AB in 9.3x62 are not super flat.

I'll work on it some more and get the drop at least out to the upper end of the zero stop.

Alan

Update.

I took a break for a bit while working on another rifle. Couple of Saturday's back I decided to give it one more try. I checked my 200 yd zero and it was on. I then put up a 400 yd target. The plan was to place a group on target, then if necessary, walk my elev knob up so that I would get my group centered and see where the elev turret ended up.

The first shots are the ones marked in red, 5" below center. Wind from my 6 with quite a bit of boil. With 6x mirage was quite evident.


I then started working my way up. One click @ 400 should move me 1". So, 5 clicks up and I get some movement upward but not the 5" I expected. I add a few more clicks and still not centered. One or two more and I get the two shown in the little rectangle. I now realize something is wrong. I should now, be hitting higher than the red bullseye and yet I'm not. I decide to stop since 250 Accubonds are not exactly cheap to buy.

At home I put my Leupold magnetic boresighting device on and from a 200 yd zero watch the reticle move downward, as it should. But when I get to about 300 yds on the dial, the reticle ceases to continue to move down. Even when I max out over 500 yds on the dial, the reticle has not moved since I passed the 300 yd mark on the elev dial.

The scope has 45 MOA of elev travel. The scope is in appropriate Leupold QR bases/rings on the Pre 64 M70 action. I figure that maybe with a 200 yd zero I'm near the end of it's elev travel and beyond 300 I'm at the end. I contact Sean, the same tech @ Leupold. He agrees that I've done all I can do and emails me a prepaid UPS shipping label. I offer to try shimming the base but he politely tells me that I've done everything within reason a shooter/owner can do and it's time for Leupold to take it from here. Kudo's for Leupold. It went out yesterday and I will patiently await to hear back from Sean.

His last quote....

"Due to time and ammunition cost I would like to have the scope in to us and run through a few shooting/adjustment drills."

Alan

Aargh. I want a CDS Leup but I've seen enough chattery tracking over the years to be somewhat suspicious. Then again I have an older 2.5-8 that track beautifully.

Jeff,

I'm hoping it's not the scope and just one of those odd scenarios where the combination of rifle, bases, rings and scope; I ran out of room at one end of the elev range.

I'll report back once Leupold takes care of things on there end and I get the scope back and shoot it.

Alan

A 20MOA base will fix the problem. You have run out of "up" adjustment and are getting dead clicks. Every other scope will do it too.

Wow, but they've got a ton of elevation!

The 1.5-6x Leupold only has 45MOA of elevation. That's not terrible but it's not a lot either.

It should be standard practice if one wishes to dial past 3-400 yards to either get a scope with a lot of travel, i.e.. 60+ MOA, or a 20MOA base. Preferably both.

sounds to me like you are using an ample amount of windage that is inhibiting your elevation travel. a long range base may help you. one shim under the rear base is a much cheaper and equally effective solution. Leup sends them out at no charge and they equal about 12 moa.

Pretty much where you want the bullet to go....(depending on the size of the branch.)

Where do you hold for a 100 yard zero?

(pop quiz: you are running a 2.5" high at 100 zero. Buck is 30 yards away, clear path to the vitals EXCEPT there's a branch bisecting the vitals. Where do you aim?)

How about the face.

It's really not that hard to shoot a deer in the woods.

I must say, I have guided some that thought it was.

( my 2 cents ) When you are hunting, you are the top predator in the woods with your rifle or you should be. You need to be on top of your game at all times, always in the "hunt mode". I think, to be proficient at this you need to be a killer. Think like a killer, hunt like a killer, be a killer.

Hunt safe, hunt hard and enjoy the great outdoos.

Hammerdown, that's what I always thought.....

Until I started posting here....and then "discovered"....my 2.5-3" high zero, should not have worked all these years....,and isn't precise enough....and I needed a 1/2" rifle to thread those needles...and a 100 yard zero....

I thought it was BS then, and I think it's BS now.

Mostly I have just dropped the hammer and things have died,and I never worried about this stuff....and frankly didn't know anyone else did either.

I like your "kill mode" logic ...too much ballistic gack and excrutiating over tiny nuances tends to diffuse it and get in the way.


As a technical matter, the answer to my own question was that with a scoped rifle,you are hitting under the line of sight,all the way to 100 yards, with a 100 yard zero.....because you have deliberately set it up so that the first time the bullet intersects the line of site,is at 100 yards....at any lesser distance, you are hitting low.....how low? Shoot...and find out.

Does it matter? No. Neither does 2-3" high....because in the brush or woods, no one I have ever seen can hold 1/2MOA in the brush on the side of a deer, off hand....hell most can't do it from a bench!

I just know that a 100-yd zero is best for most of my deer hunting. You are throwing up a straw man- "these crazy Internet people say I can't shoot deer with a 3" high zero!"- while nobody is saying that.

I like to aim vitals and shoot- there's your kill mode- and that's easiest with the 100 yd zero for how I hunt them.

I do spin up to a 200 or 250-yd zero in more open country... hint...

(lol)

My point Jeff, is (has always been)that distances (even in the thick stuff) are not pre-determined,and you are dealing with "trajectory" no matter how you zero....even with a 100 yard zero on those 50 yard shots....feel free to manage it as you will.

I'll take my advise from field experience, thanks;not the internet,where there is a pile of good advise on how to zero for target shooting....not so much, for BG hunting IMHO.

Just don't try to convince me your way is "the" way....BTW how DO you hold for that 30 yard "pop quiz"?

Whatever, one day I might snipe crows or squirrels and another day a 250 pound hog with the same rifle. 3" high helps me none, but if I feel that's the way I should run for the day, all I do is spin the turret before stepping out the door.

It's a dangerous world out there....

Maybe it's a dangerous world where you live, but not so up here..
Except for charging GRIZZLY'S of course..
But we are pretty much use to them...

Scott: Indeed it is my friend!.....

I never zeroed for varmints, the way I zeroed for BG...not suggesting that.

But with a couple of rarely encountered exceptions, for the genral run of BG hunting,it just always struck me as a pretty good idea, to zero one way,and stick with it for those more or less typical situations,say off the muzzle to 500 yards (rock throwing I know

This mostly because, through the day,or in a few seconds, situations can vary with terrain and vegetation,and "close cover" situations become "open area" situations pretty quick,and animals can be uncooperative,as when a hat rack buck blows out of an oak brush thicket where you had no shot,and 50-60 yards becomes 250-400 yards as he winds through a stringer of spruce and emerges in the open for a few seconds before he is gone forever, while you are scrambling for a rest.

BTDT,more than a few times. And the chance for a shot after 8 days of hard work,boils down to a very few seconds.

... a guy better not be looking at scopes,and doing anything other than getting ready to shoot,and that 100 yard zero that was "perfect" in the thicket, becomes a handicap on the 300 yard chance...Your eyes better stay on him, not on anything else, like changing scope powers,etc.So,a flexible zero always struck me as a pretty good idea.

Maybe I think this way because I generally concentrate on above average deer,pass up many,and get few chances in the course of a hunt,if at all....and these animals rarely give a guy much time for anything other than shooting,because most times, if they are not killed in the first 5 seconds or so, they are not killed...at all......They can be confoundingly slippery.

Keeping it simple has not been a problem,and solid chest hits have been the result,near and far.I just have not encountered Jeff's issues or problems with hitting stuff close or far, doing it my way..... which of course, may not be for everyone. OMMV

You guys are destroying the image of the great, white hunter.

Scope arrived today. Communication with Sean at Leupold CS was fantastic. He indicated the scope basically ran out of room to adjust higher and shoot farther. I had used up 19 MOA for the 200 yd zero and only had about 7 MOA left. They still went ahead and checked it out by shooting it with their 300 WM and 220 Sierra MK via a box test. Passed with flying colors. They sent it back with their standard shim kit which consists of 3 each 12/1000 shims; 3 are long to fit longer hole spacing and 3 are shorter for short hold spacing.

I'll mount it in the am but doubt I'll get out to shoot it for 1-2 weeks. Darn it!

And zero cost for any of this to me.

Alan

Nice people at Leupold.

Would any of the Burris Signature rings fit your bases? It's my understanding they work similar to shimming. Just throwing that out as an alternative.

Hi Bob. Kind of forgot we were conversing here.

Just using a 165 NBT in a 30-06 for reference, with a 100-yd zero I'm within an inch of point of aim out to 150 yards.

Zeroed at 3" high at 100, there a 3.5" variance from aim to impact, within that same 150-yd window.

The vast bulk of my killing happens up close, so I gear up for that. I'd fully expect you to do likewise.

It's no big thing to dial up to a MPBR zero if I want. It's marked on my turrets.

Ok, after I finished shooting a sniper match today (made every mistake possible) up near Park City, Utah about 6500', I had a little bit of extra time and the range, pretty much to my self except for a few guys who banging steel around 650 yds. I tacked up a 100 and 200 yd target. Got on at 100, then completed zero @ 200 yds. Had one of the guys get behind me with my Zeiss 15-45x spotter and see if I made hits or misses.

300 yd steel; BAM!

400 yd steel; BAM!

500 yd steel: BAM!

All in Nirvana is back again!

Alan

Nice to know. Mine looks good, but I haven't mounted it on anything yet.

Bob, with a good buck at thirty yards it'd take me about 2.5 seconds to release the pin on him even with my old 3"-high-at-100yds sight-in. In fact I did this very thing on a bull elk that flushed like a very large cottontail rabbit at that range. No time to think about poi. With a chest the size of a large wash basin, the 100 yd sight-in didn't matter .

I did put a CDS dial on a .284 with data actually shot to 600yds with a 200 yd zero. My dial goes to about 750 yds. Haven't shot it at range yet but am looking forward to.

And....on paper yesterday morning.

200 yd zero and 400 yd impact. I still need to move wind a skootch to the right.


300 yd impact


500 yd impact. At 500, I'll need 1-2 more clicks past the 500 yd dial marker to be on.


600 yds was a wash. For one the dial, even though it's marked for 600, only clicked up to about 570 yds. So, maybe 550 or so will be max. Also, for shooting at paper with 6x, I could not discern any of the triangluar aiming points so simply shot center mass of the large white paper backer. The 3 hits are low left, down near the end of the maul handle.


Alan