great...
just opened the shipping box from camera land, vortex cf2, and the scope rattles inside and has a optical blur half the size of the FOV
what's Neil tell me to do?
call vortex and let them handle it.
now they have my money they, apparently, are done.
or I can take this brand new scope to the shipper, send it to NY, and wait for them to send it to vortex.
First vortex I've ever bought and it's screwed.
no external damage to Fed ex box or scope.
I guess they are not as durable as they say.
so thanks camera land.
thanks vortex.
now I get to sit here and wait a couple weeks, hopefully, for vortex to fix this NEW scope.

Vortex will fix it but you're learning.

This is not a product quality problem (though it may be related), it's a shipping problem. Cameraland may not be directly responsible for product quality, they are responsible for shipping. It is there responsibility to get a new optic to you undamaged - if the optic is damaged by the shipping that they arranged, they owe you a new optic immediately. Product repairs/ shipping claims are between Cameraland and Shipper, you shouldn't be involved.

I would reverse the charges on my credit card and let the CC company know that the scope is available for pick-up ( you aren't responsible for shipping the damged merchandise back). Your CC will have your funds back in a day or two and you will be free to purchase your new scope from someone else.

Obviously, this is not the preferred method of dealing with this, but if Cameraland is shirking their responsibility I would do it in a heart beat.

David

I am sorry that there is an issue with the Damaged Box Demo/Display Unit that you purchased. The unit that you purchaed was not a new unit, but one of the Damaged Box Demo/Display Units.
We do try to examine each scope before it leaves the store however some days that is an impossible task.
What Neil most likely suggested to you (I am out of the store today and was not there when he spoke with you) was to call Vortex, explain the situation to them and they inturn will send a pick up tag for the defective scope (so you do not need to pay for any shipping) and they will replace your reduced priced Damaged Box Demo/Display Unit with a new unit.
I know that this is what he most likely suggested as that is standard policy on any initial defective as having a client send the scope to us for us to send to the mfg and then the mfg replace it to us for us to replace to the client is grossly inefficient.
This will also upgrade the Damaged Box Demo/Display Unit that you purchased to a brand new unit.

I am sorry that there was an initial problem and that you are slightly inconvenienced, however, I do think Neil handled this correctly and quite honestly I think you owe him & Camera Land an apology for publically blasting him and Camera Land for attempting to assist you in the most efficient manner.

you...
not Neil, you... stated the scopes were 100%`
" Everything is optically & functionally 100% and includes the Vortex VIP warranty."

so, you just hold you're breath while I prepare that apology.

Again, not your problem. I was preferring to believe they wouldn't ship you a trashed scope, but in reality it doesn't matter. They have to get the product to you undamaged. if it breaks after it arrives then it's your problem, if it arrives broken it's Cameralands problem. Call your Credit Card company, they will handle it, very little muss/fuss.

David

agreed.
Doug, do you think that if your ad/ site stated ..
demo and damage box scopes may rattle and not focus upon receipt"
oi you think you'd sell as many?
the only reason I purchased the item was because of your word that they were 100% functional.
and now you refer to the fact that the scope is broken as a minor inconvenience.
what a salesman.

That is correct as when we received the hundreds of products from Vortex we were informed that they were damaged box/demos and display units that were 100% optically and functionally.
I guess a defective product slipped through. I am sorry that this situation happened as we pride ourselves on the quality of our products as well as the quality of our customer service.
Neil was attempting to assist you in the most efficient manner, which I believe he did. Getting a pick up tag and a new replacement scope to you in exchange for the discounted demo product you purchased seems to me to offering quality customer service.
We have been a sponsor on this forum for many years and I believe we have more than proven that we do all we can to offer a quality product at a good price and care about how and what we do.
If there is a better way to handle your situation please PM me a phone # to me that I can call you at as I am out of the store today and I shall do so.
Again, I am sorry that you have been inconvenienced

David
You obviously have never done this after the first contact while the seller is agreeing to fix and improve everything. No CC company will do anything YET on this. Encouraging the idiot to continue to prove he is an idiot is not good for anyone.

IIRC, you were run off once for being a dick and returned with a new name. Sometimes, karma's a bitch.

if I'm an idiot, its only for believing the statement you made that " Everything is optically & functionally 100%".
I'd rather be called a fool than a liar.
and now you have taken a customers money, given them a broken and useless item, refused to assist them short of referring the manufacturers contact AND INSULTING THE CUSTOMER FOR COMPLAINING...
good business model.

If it means driving off a "customer" like you... it is a great business model.

What has Vortex told you? Sounds like it's the most efficient route to go with them. If they treat you wrong I have no doubt Doug will take care of you but going straight to Vortex, as was recommended, sounds like common sense.

so somehow I deserve a broken scope...
hard to type with Doug's d1co in your mouth?

Doug didn't call you an idiot, Art did.

Great move there Mr Christian! Ever wonder why folks distrust you so much?

I never said you deserved a broken scope. What did you expect from Neil? Should he have immediately sent you out a new scope? To a two-faced schemer standing under the banner of Jesus?

like me or not...
Doug said the scopes were 100%, not that vortex tilled him they were 100%.
I called camera land for help and was told to call vortex.

regardless of what you think I'd my personality... I'm a customer and Doug has my money. I have a broken scope and now I have to wait for the manufacture to fix the issue.

you can decide if that's fair and good... even passable customer service.

Sitka, you are highly confused as to whom you are referring.

Ringworm,

Just PM me your contact info and I�ll have our CS dept. get in touch with you regarding a replacement. We sell tens of thousands of Crossfire riflescopes; they�re just mechanical devices and as such can have a mechanical problem now and then (even new). Of course, I�m sorry that it had to happen to you, but we�ll get it replaced ASAP for you.

Paul @ Vortex

Obviously you are the one that's never tried, because you are wrong. The CC company will ask the OP if he tried to correct w/ the merchant - he has. After that they will take his statement, then they will reverse the charges and they'll do it right now. The OP is under no requirement to contact Camerland again or see what else they are willing to do for him at this point.

I'm well aware that Cameraland is seen in a very favorable light on this forum and also aware that the OP isn't likely to win any popularity contests. This isn't a schoolyard and we're not choosing sides for the big dodge ball game, so none of that matters.

Cameraland sold a discontinued scope that was damaged when it arrived - note, not blaming Cameraland, stuff happens, but those are the facts.

Cameraland then said the scope would be repaired/replaced by Vortex free of charge, it was best to deal direct with them. Now, this is probably the best option for the OP, it will get him a better quality scope for the same money in the least amount of time. I think that was what Cameraland was trying to do for him (I see Vortex has offered to expedite things and try and make him happy also). I agree with all that are promoting this as an idea of the best way to handle the situation.

The problem is that the OP isn't happy with that solution. The OP didn't buy a scope from Vortex - he bought it from Cameraland and that scope arrived broken. The OP does not have to accept this third party (Vortex repair/replace) solution.

He is well within his rights to demand an immediate replacement from Cameraland. If Cameraland cannot provide an immediate replacement then they must provide a full refund. If Cameraland had started by making it clear that was an option, he may not have ever posted, he may have just gone the route of involving the manufacturer.

Whether you like the OP or Cameraland doesn't enter into the discussion. They are bound by the same rules as all customer/merchant exchanges as dictated by both parties agreement to use a CC as the form of payment. The OP has a right to an immediate replacement or a refund, if Cameraland only gives him the option of going to a thirdy party(Vortex) then the CC company will credit the funds back (usually immediately).

The matter will go through their disputed claims process and take months to get settled. During that time, Camerland will be out both the scope and the funds. At the end of the dispute Cameraland will not get their funds back, they can issue a pu for the damaged scope. The OP won't have the upgraded scope that Vortex is offering for what seems to be a very good deal, but it IS HIS CHOICE.

I agree that posting these sorts of things rarely does you any favors and would not have done so myself, but Cameraland is not blameless here either - they should have offered to pick the scope up and refund his money if he wasn't happy with the return to Vortex.

David

David
Thank you for proving my points completely. You are clueless. Offering a faster way to deal with the problem is what was done and you think a CC company will jump right up and stand behind a customer demanding things be made more difficult?

I have had to use a CC company to get funds returned a number of times, and as recently as last year... They do not want to hear from someone being obtuse, difficult, and ridiculous.

I'll vouch for Doug's integrity and great customer service.

Ringworm, would you prefer to have your money back as a full refund? If so, just ask Doug for it. Neil gave you the most efficient solution to the problem. Vortex has now also offered to make good on the problem.

The only thing standing in the way of your satisfaction is making a decision about what exactly you want the two vendors to do for you. It is hard for them to have "good customer service" at this point if you won't give them some direction that they can take to make you happy.

Straight from The Man and in line with the original recommendation.

All it comes down to now is if someone wants the problem rectified or they want to drag it out.

What I got out of that is that you sold a defective unit and that you are damn sure everyone should know that the man purchased a defective "reduced price' item.

And damaged box is not the same as defective product.

Ringworm, come down off your high horse and allow the man to fix the problem.

Sitka

The CC companies do not let personality or emotion dictate their responses. The OP purchased a product from Camerland, the product was damaged upon receipt. Camerland cannot insist that he work through a third party when the merchandise was received damaged. If the OP doesn't want their proposed resolution he doesn't have to accept it, regardless whether you or anyone else thinks "its best".

You realize he could have also opened the box and thought "huh! I don't like the way it looks" and demanded a refund and the CC would still reverse the charges if Camerland refused to take it back? Or demanded a restocking fee that he didn't want to pay?

That is the protection that is offered when using a CC and it is one of the ways that CC encourage consumers to use them. It sounds like it's all one-sided for the consumer, but it's not because the CC use encourages many purchases that otherwise would not be made. The entire online portion of Cameraland's business would not have been possible without credit cards and they know as well as I do the consumer protections that are built in.

It's obvious you don't care for the OP very much and seemingly are displeased with me as well. Regardless, I'm still correct and you are still mistaken - The OP doesn't have to accept Cameralands (or Vortex) proposed solution. If he disputes the charges they will credit his account. Your feelings for the OP, Cameraland, Vortex, what you think is best or even what you think of me won't be considered.

David

"David
You obviously have never done this after the first contact while the seller is agreeing to fix and improve everything. No CC company will do anything YET on this. Encouraging the idiot to continue to prove he is an idiot is not good for anyone."
Sitka,
I am not taking either side on this(have had good dealings w/ CLNY); but I could have my money back from American Express in about 60 seconds by filing a dispute. Does not mean that will be the ultimate outcome of their investigation, though, but they will immediately cancel the transaction and take the side of their customer, Done it several times. Had Home Depot totally botch a hardwood floor install and their "trained " crew of Mexicans walked off the job 3 days before Christmas w/ my house a wreck. Was not getting anywhere with manager until I had AMEX yank $15k back; that got their attention.

I purchased a scope from Amazon that was defective on arrival. I contacted the manufacturer first and they said they would repair or replace the scope under warranty (no charge) but they were backed up and it would take a few weeks. I called Amazon and explained the situation and they said "No problem. Send us the scope and we'll replace it for free with no shipping charges."

The next day Amazon shipped out a new scope before receiving the one I returned.




Different strokes for different folks.

FWIW, I've purchased two binos and a rangefinder from Cameraland.

that got their attention.

You have a gift for understatement, and humour!

Wow! A real dispute over a real problem and you were not being helped. That is as different from this situation as it is possible to get.

I have had the same results under like conditions. Here we have two different entities, retailer and manufacturer, both stepping up to get it resolved AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE and you see a problem the CC company wants to deal with? Would deal with at this stage?

GMAFB!

Sitka,

That's a first class fit you've got going there! I suggest you hold your breathe until everybody quits telling Ringworm he can legitimately dispute the charges.

David

Yep, ended up getting a 20% discount and hotel room for my inlaws for Christmas. AMEX customer service is unparalleled; well worth the annual fee. Lost my card prior to going on a ski trip one time; called them at 2pm on Friday. A courier was standing at my door at 10am the next morning w/ a new card.

Back on topic; I know it's frustrating to get a bad scope; but from my dealings w/ them; Vortex will make it right.

While disappointing, it happens. Doug is trying to make it right. You will end up with a new scope vs. a demo model and no shipping costs if you'll just be patient.

Can't ask for much more than that.

yep, especially don't drag it out here. "WE" most of us have bought from Doug. I had a quality problem on some Bino's I bought from Cameraland. I sent them back to the manufacturer, they are in the process of sending me a new unit.

NOW, the first pair of these bino's, I ORDERED WRONG. Neil and Doug let me send them back and the sent me the pair I wanted I paid shipping and the difference in price, seamless transaction. GREAT service.

You will get it fixed

I would say, that's what you get for buying a Vortex but this would be very tacky

Jeezus, sh*t happens..........send the busted scope to Vortex and get your new one and shut the F up.

You sound like a whinny little B*tch

Couple more names for the ignore list.

Good deal there. Thumbs up for Vortex and Cameraland.

Yup. Holy crap! The man has been contacted by Doug and by Vortex. What more does he want, for crying out loud?
Fair to say that Cameraland has more than proved the quality of their customer service over the years, but there will always be someone who feels slighted if there is a problem, even when a solution is offered.

He was sold a defective scope by Camera Land. Scopes are a mechanical device and having a bad one just happens every once in a while, that's not CL's fault but the way they handled the situation was wrong IMO. They should have immediatly sent him a call tag for the defective scope and when they got it back replaced it ASAP.

I you're going to be an internet retailer and have minimal overhead the only thing you can offer is lower prices and great customer service.

Skane, I'm not as good at making little maps as you are but the line should have been from the southern states up to CL and back. There should be no repair and Vortex should not even be involved in this, CL sold a defective scope (it happens not a big deal) they should have stood behind it and dealt with Vortex themselves.

Try EuroOptic next time = awesome pricing & even better customer service!!!

I received a "bad" Weaver optic yesterday. After an email, the seller called me up, told me to send the bad optic back to him, and that a new one would be shipped USPS Priority in the morning.

I mailed the bad one out this afternoon. The new one is already en route. THAT is what "customer service" is all about......

Regardless of the condition the item was in when it left the shipper, and regardless of the packing; during shipping, a product inside a shipping box is exposed to strong forces that it would never be exposed to in normal use. It gets thrown around, it gets slammed around... that's life. But also, scopes, in general, have a significant failure rate anyway.

So I agree with you, that if you don't want to deal with Vortex, that's entirely your choice in the matter... So you can send the scope back to CL, get a refund and buy from someone else....you're done.

But if you have an aversion to dealing with Vortex as a company, to the point that you don't want to deal with their CS department, it's likely not a great idea to buy one of their products in the first place.

Yep.

Because if you buy Vortex, you're going to deal with customer service. Awfully high rate of failure.

But yes, Cameraland should have taken the scope back, no questions asked. Not "send it to the factory".

I agree with both of these statements 100%. I have probably owned more scopes and dealt with this $hit more than 95% ever will. Yesterday, Weaver offered to take my scope back, and send a new one upon receiving it. The DEALER said send it back to him, a new one is already in the mail, HE will deal with Weaver on the returned scope.......

Jay from Sport Optics offers great deals for 24hr & Sniperhide members if your not happy with your current dealer.

For the NY fan club

BUY LEUPOLD. They have NEVER sold me a bad scope. Seems to me there's a reason Vortex is cheaper.... Just Sayin.

And I may pay a little more, but I always buy my Optics from Cabela's. They never, ever question a return or refund. Best Customer Service for a Retail Sales Store, Ever.

I should have prefaced that by saying things could have been handled better. I'm just not much for drama and if given the initial instructions, I would have called the company first before starting a thread.

2muchgun has it right, Cameraland could have easily sent a replacement scope and had the buyer send it back to them to get a replacement from Vortex.

I have purchased many scopes, a spotter and a camera from Doug at Cameraland and have had superb service.

Seems like they could have done better on this one.

Enorton

This. ^^^^^^

I will say that the two Vortex products I own have been excellent. I'm still a bit bias toward Leupold, however.

Bought several zeiss scopes and range finder from Doug, good Lord willing will buy many more.

Seems alot of stress over a $100 scope. Why even bring this up?

Seems problem is solved.


Quit being a child, it'll all work itself out.

I agree, this seems to be a $100. scope, so you do need to consider that.

I have dealt with Doug on many optics over the years, both new and demo, Swaro.
Zeiss and Nikon.
He has been great to deal with, in any case, and has helped me well, when we
had to deal with any issue, for a return or replacement.

It seems Ringworm will get a new scope for discounted or used price.....CL, Doug and Neil got drug thru the mud....and several from the cheap seat got to give their professional opinions...only to be put on the watch list.......what good came from this public post......I have bought several demo's and discontinued scopes from CL at one hell of a savings....knowing there is a chance I'd get a bad one.....but also knowing Doug or Neil will give me good advice....or fix it.....don't think OP really wanted it to work.....just my two cents.....
Archie Solomon

Doubt it and I have bought from both.

Actually what they told the OP to do was to send it to Vortex and basically cheat them into giving him a new scope instead of taking care of the matter themself. The man bought a demo scope and they are trying to get him to cheat Vortex, many of you seem OK with that but there are those of us who try not to cheat people every chance we get.

Would you rather have Cameraland send you another demo scope (assuming they have one in stock) to replace the broken one, or talk/deal with Vortex with a high probability Vortex will send you a new scope? Consider the options in light of the experience with the demo.

Rambelon razorback

Cheating them out of something?

Find something else to stand up for....

So its ok the drag someone over the coals cause they ain't happy.
Answer me this, ever have dealimgs with Cameraland?

If I walked into a brick and mortar retail store that was an authorized dealer for a given product and ...

If I found out that I purchased a defective product after opening it, immediately after I got home, I would expect the retail store to exchange it, same same, with no questions asked.

Is there a reason why an authorized internet retailer should not offer the same service?



edited to add: If the authorized retailer told me to contact the manufacturer I would not be a happy camper.

Big Dave,

I didn't write anything about "cheating" anybody - that was somebody else that wrote that.

As long as everybody is up front and honest in this situation, there isn't any cheating occurring.

Ramblin Razorback

Sorry Ramblin Razorback, I am WRONG.

Reelman was the one talking about cheating Vortex

Big Dave, Reelman is the one that said cheat and he quoted me .....like I said we have a bunch of professionals here giving their wisdom.....we have no idea what Vortex and CL's deal is they we're advertised as damaged boxes...Vortex might have told them to direct the customer to them .....last time I bought something from Lowes, Homedepot, and even Walmart....after reading the instructions...it said if you have a problem do not take it back to the store....contact us....most that have given their professional opinion probably never work retail ....I Wish People had this much fight about Obamacare and what happening in our country than a $100 scope......

Maybe just maybe CL, Neil and Doug have lost customers from this post....?
Then they might not be out of stock next time I need some of their discounted damaged stock.....it is a full moon.....and looneys do show up during the full moon.....worked retail for 32 years at same place.....happens 12 times a year....has same effect on deer and fish.... And looneys ......
Archie Solomon

I doubt this tantrum will deter their repeat customers that have become use great service and fair prices.

I hope potential customers will read the whole thread and see that the problem has been solved, just not instantly like the OP would have liked.

I've bought several times from them and have been satisfied each time. Without the deals they offer I wouldnt have gotten some of the higher $$ scopes otherwise.

Just hate to see them drug through the mud like this, but search the forums, the positive experiences far out weigh the negatives.

Enough on this....

The main thing that happened here is that Ring didn't get a good explanation as to what he needed to do. Should CL have immediately replaced the scope- in most cases, yes. This might have been a unique situation where it was as damaged box scope and sold at a discounted price. CL may not have been able to send him another damaged box scope anyway- they could have refunded his money or assumed that he would want a new scope as quickly as possible and acted accordingly. They probably should have made it a little clearer what they were doing. Did Ring specifically tell them that this was unacceptable and he wanted THEM to deal with Vortex? I don't know. I have a buddy that had a very similar situation to this happened (all the same players) He just wanted his money back and bought another brand.

I do think Ring jumped the gun on this and started a sh$tstorm a little too soon though.

Dennis
A little too soon? A LITTLE???

Azzhole was given a detailed explanation of why it worked to his advantage to go to Vortex and over a hundred dollar scope he went here?

Figure it this way... Azzhole to CL... CL to Vortex... Vortex to CL... And CL to Azzhole means four rides in the USPS truck at $15 a unit. And the scope is a C-note.

CL offered that cutting the route short would be faster and azzhole would get a new scope to replace the open-box unit... and this is "its" response?

A little too soon?

And the cockroaches thinking the CC company would do something for him at this stage?!?!

This is a headshaker of mega-proportion...
art

Any manufacturer can have a defective product & sometimes it's a shipping issue. Many years ago I received a Leupold 6X42 scope from a vendor(don't remember who) & installed it on a rifle during a class I was teaching. I never looked through the scope since Leupold's never fail. After installation a student advised me the reticle was broken. I had planned to return to Leupold for a reticle change. As compensation Leupold installed a custom reticle no charge.
Back to the issue posted. I too have purchased many items from CL & always received excellent service. However, in this case CL missed the mark. They should have shipped a replacement scope.

vortex is taking care of the problem removing camera land from the equation. which seems to be exactly what camera land wants.
point... may be only 150 dollars. but it's my 150. I didn't find it in the street. I worked for it.
point 2
only after calling and getting gaffed off by Neil did I start this thread and only after this thread got started did camera land seem interested in doing what most agree would be decent
point 3
Sitka... you can go fk yourself. you don't know what your talking about or who to.

most people with half a brain realize that the retail operation has certain obligations.
I never asked for anything free from anyone.
I spent hard earned money for a metal pipe full of loose glass.

if a seller in the classifieds here posted a scope for sale, advertised as 100% and you received it broken you would contact the seller first.
is he told you to contact the manufacturer to fix the problem you'd be put off, no?
but disingenuous posters want to give camera land a free ride because they dont like my personality.
they don't like my tone, politics or religious stance so they convince themselves I am somehow deserving of poor service. or that because they have a larger budget then I do they my money is less important.

We have only heard one side of this story and none of us heard the conversation between Neil and RW. Sometimes when i buy discount anything I realize part of the reason the price is discounted is because while warrantied, the seller keeps prices discounted with the understanding the warranty will be between the manufacturer and me. RW frustration in understandable.

here's the other side...
Neil..." do you have something to write with?"
RW " sure, what am I writing"
Neil " Vortex's phone number"

GFY

David

Quite the informative thread, in many ways.

I arranged for a friend's wife to send Cameralandny 4k for a spotting scope to purchase his Xmas present. The deal went flawlessly. Fast shipping. Perfect product. Helpful service. Friend decided to exchange for a larger ocular piece. No problem. Neil was the guy who helped throughout this transaction.

Gentleman,
I apologize for the way this was handled.

Our agreement with the manufacturers we purchase from, in relation to initial defectives, is they will issue a pick up tag (either Fed Ex or UPS, whoever they use) and ship a replacement. This is the most efficient manner rather than us doing the replacement and having to get the defective unit back then ship that defective back to them and have them ship a replacement to us. It saves on time, shipping expenses and paperwork.

This being said, I have spoken with Neil this morning and explained to him that the proper way to handle this should have been for him to apologize for this situation, get RW's name, address, phone # and e-mail. Confirmed that a pick up tag would be sent to him along with a new scope.
Then Neil could have accessed his original receipt, Neil should have contacted Vortex (as the chain of how all this is done should not be the concern nor the interest of our clients) and taken care of this.

Moving forward this will be our method.

Again, I apologize for the poor way in which this was handled. We can only learn from this and attempt to improve from it.

I would rather run a toilet paper tube with yarn crosshairs than a Vortex.

Either way, it's Cameraland's scope to warranty.

I plan to purchase a pair of high end binocs soon. Hoping to find them as a demo or open box from cameralandny. I could make this purchase risk and hassle free and pay full suggested price at a high end retailer. I often buy local, but saving close to a grand certainly has some appeal. I liked Doug's responses to this thread.

+1 First choice before I buy any optics

I liked Doug's last response to this thread. His first response not so much.

I've bought from Cameraland before and had no problem. The fact is that Ringworm was not treated as he should have been.

The apology has been given. It's time to kiss and make up.

I've got no dog in this fight, but to say that the whole thing is a giant cluster is seriously understating the situation. Due to my zip code, practically everything I buy that is not perishable groceries or fuel comes through the USPS so I deal with issues like this on a fairly regular basis. If anyone thinks that CameraLand has been improper with their CS then I'd suggest you don't have a clue. If you buy enough items some will be broken for a variety of reasons. The more crap items you buy (read cheap Vortex scopes) the higher the rate of "broken" will be. That's a fact and complaining will not make the crap you buy any better. Maybe Doug should have mounted each Vortex scope on a rifle, shot each of them a few hundred times to insure their accuracy and then placed them in the box though I doubt Ringworm would have been satisfied as to their new condition. I doubt he could be content in this deal (irrespective of Camera Land's actions) regardless of what he says otherwise......

I find no fault in Camera Land on this deal and will happily deal with them again.

Camaraland = my first choice.

Been sitting on the sidelines on this but just had to comment. Having spent over 30 years in various service and sales roles I too have taken the "apology" and "future handling" route time to time. Sure there's always room for improvement but I, as a customer, would not have taken offense at Neil's handling of the incident. A quick call to Vortex would have had a replacement in motion just as quickly, maybe more so, than having Neil take on that task. Reputable manufacturers are prepared for product failures and resolution and can handle it in the most expedient manner. Personally speaking I see no reason here to not do business with you or Neil. This being by all descriptions a "used" product, and being replaced with a "new" product, just strengthens the argument. My 2 bits FWIW.

Cameraland is always my first choice, and I see nothing in this thread that would change that. Sure, things could have been done differently, but everyone has 20-20 hindsight. But hey, you buy a heavily-discounted demo item, don't get a working model and in exchange -- for not one penny more -- you get a brand-new item...well, that's still pretty dog-gone good in my books.

Cameraland has been terrific to both me and my wife. Just before Christmas, she called to get a pair of demo Meopta binos for my "Santa" present. Well, I had mentioned what a great price the demos were (something like $309), so she asked for those when placing her order. Unbeknownst to us, these had become a "deal of the day," so they promptly told her about the added discount and allowed her to save another $40 or $50.

Honesty like that means a lot to me.

Years ago, I bought a Minox scope, and it developed a problem. I had difficulty contacting Minox CS, so I called Doug to see if he had a direct # or a different # for them. He went above and beyond, contacting them himself and having a call tag sent for the defective scope (which I ahd for several months). He also had them immediately send out a new scope, which I had in just a few days. I had to do absolutely nothing more after the one call to Doug. It's hard to argue with customer service like that.

No one should be tempted for even a moment to buy into this fake "CS" issue that never existed, or even to entertain the thought at all.

Doug and the Cameraland staff are dedicated to providing the best Customer Service that is humanly possible, and the best CS experience that a customer will ever receive, or better...and Vortex does as well.

Every successful business at times receives false complaints that are actually "false flag" type attempts to steer potential customers toward a competitor. A savvy consumer should always keep one eye open for that type of misinformation. That seems to be the case here, and this forum should not be used as a pawn in that game.

For these fine folks to be criticized in any way over their efforts to provide over-the-top customer service and customer satisfaction in this case, or the manner in which they chose to best serve their customer is an insult to them.

Considering that the only evidence presented that the product is even damaged is the customer's statement, this should not be assumed to be factual, and further, for Doug to issue an apology for his, and Vortex's, best efforts to accept the "customer's" word on the matter and give the "customer" more than what they paid for strikes me as absurd.

I will still do business with Doug.

I just placed an order a couple of days ago, not worried, not my first order, and expect to continue to do business with CL.

I think more folks than not, have had favorable experiences with this company, and Doug.

There is nothing in life that is exempt from Murphy's law. I should know, I must have bought every defective Rem 700 made in the 90s......even had something come back from Leupold that was not done right at the custom shop....two actually. They stood behind them. That's the most important thing. What happened to the OP - surely is the exception, the important thing is it will be taken care of......and this thread just reinforces folks positive experience with great customer service.

After reading thru this thread and putting my self in each of the Players Roles, with a 40 year history of selling consumer goods to Retailers from Mom & Pop's to the Largest Big Box Stores In the US, in multiple product categories - including Hunting/Fishing equipment for 13 years - and some of the optics name brands mentioned...my thought are:

Ringworm wanted the cheapest priced & best warranted product available from a retail outlet that is known for its honesty and integrity in Cust Svc as an "Insurance Policy".

He got what he ordered in a timely manner..but it was broke on arrival, got the usage of the CS Insurance Policy & Service he expected - actually came out ahead from the Mfg'er - and he wants to whine that he had a problem when he didn't get a 1st Quality Experience when he bought less than 1st Qualty product as it was a demo/Damaged box item to begin with....regardless if it was a $10,000 product or a $100 product ...I get that...but everyone's CS people stood behind the Product to make his experience happen PDQ as possible...at the deepest Damamged Box/Demo price available in the US and he totally discounts that as not having any value.

IMO & YMMV but "THIS CUSTOMER" is the customer I always knew would be my companies worst nightmare...as he is LOOKING for a problem and will create the loudest most obnoxious problem he can IF AT ALL POSSIBLE 'cause he bought the BEST PRODUCT AT THE CHEAPEST PRICE POSSIBLE and believes he will always get screwed somehow because of it....and HIS Worst nightmare came to pass when he opened the box...and had no faith in the Insurance Policy that 'caused him to make the buying decision initially...thats called NO SELF CONFIDENCE IN MAKING A DECISION.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the CC Co's CS unit when he filed a denial of payment request....his rquest form prolly went on the coffee room wall or was taught in training class as a an example of "Thats a good Example of an Unreasonable Demand".

As far as AMEX's CS folks, back in the '80's when I was running $125k /$140k annually in T&E and had many such circumstances to bitch about ... but was always told in essence bottom line "Whats your problem ???? If the Parties involved are trying to HELP you get what your ordered in the 1st Place ...and YOU don't want to Let Them???...call us back if you don't get the goods and services you ordered and we'll refuse Payment to the service provider ... airline/hotel/car rental yaddayadda...But not until AFTER THEY have had a chance to resolve the issue"...click.

He & We should realize that any consumer product has a % of of issues with hidden damage ...but the stuff that is offered as a "demo/Damaged box etc has a much higher likely hood of having SOME KIND OF HIDDEN DAMAGE and to expect a certain and much higher percentage of "Issues" when buying this level of consumer goods .... it happens, get over it and enjoy the savings potential...but the lesson is "ALWAYS BUY 1ST QUALITY GOODS FROM 1ST QUALITY PROVIDERS" to get that CS Insurance Policy ( try sending a $100 price point of any number of Chain Store Low Quality brand scopes back an see what you get HAHAHAHA)....and RW did do that to start with in a 1st Quality brand and Retailer...so he needs to back off and Let them give you what you contracted for as PDQ as possible.

Otherwise all you are doing is muddying up the water for your fun and games or to satisfy your personal ego at beating up on the Big Guys in a David & Goliath deal. You are sounding more and more like the guy in Nevada who wants to duck paying his cattle grazing lease contracts ...for 20 years...aways trying to get something for nothing...and whining about it when the facts come out ...the longer this incident is dragged out.

I know of a certain SoCal based P&C Casualty Co that wish's they had met their contractual Insurance Policy promises locally before they got to the courthouse in Texas... 3 times on 3 different claims...so there is always that kind of resoulution over a $100 Optics product available too. Just Sayin
Ron

I have nothing but great things to say about Doug and the cameraland crew; for me the experience has been 1st class all the way. He's always my first call when I'm needing anything optic....

It is exceptionally difficult to find better customer service than cameraland.

If I had been Doug I would have taken care of this before the end of the first page. This ain't over for Doug. It will not break him but the damage has been done. powdr

This was a hundred dollar scope and the OP was looking for revenge rather than a solution. He could have used this forum to PM Doug rather than to vent to everyone. You however are right that Doug might have been well served to quash this. I do it all the time when dealing with disproportionately angry people like the OP. It is cheaper to pay them off than to spend time listening to them bit_h and cry when they do not get exactly their way.

[quote=ringworm]vortex is taking care of the problem removing camera land from the equation. which seems to be exactly what camera land wants.
point... may be only 150 dollars. but it's my 150. I didn't find it in the street. I worked for it.

[/quote

Is it really that big of a deal to go directly thru Vortex?

I'm honestly not knocking you just saying I don't see the problem in going to the manufacturer. I do understand its your money and you bought it from them.
If you had gotten it in perfect condition and a year from now it messed up would you still contact CL or Vortex?
I'm just saying the beauty of the warranty from vortex is being able to send it in and get it repaired or a repacement.

Either way, hope everything works out for you.

I think the OP WAS looking for a solution but wanted the solution his way and I think he was justified in wanting it his way. He shouldn't have been told to call Vortex; Cameraland should have taken care of it and it would never have gone as far as it did. I would have been unhappy to be treated that way had it been a $50, a $100 or a $1,000 scope. If a vendor sells you something broken, they should take care of it.

It's disturbing to me how few people can understand this simple concept.

David

He wanted it his way and is whining because Neil suggested there was a better and more efficient means of fixing his issue. I love that everyone knows what's best and is dissatisfied with anything else, whether their way is asinine or not. The OP and his ilk are impossible to satisfy, occasionally they can be placated, but that's far from the same thing......

Originally Posted By: Grumulkin
Originally Posted By: bonefish
This was a hundred dollar scope and the OP was looking for revenge rather than a solution. He could have used this forum to PM Doug rather than to vent to everyone. You however are right that Doug might have been well served to quash this. I do it all the time when dealing with disproportionately angry people like the OP. It is cheaper to pay them off than to spend time listening to them bit_h and cry when they do not get exactly their way.


I think the OP WAS looking for a solution but wanted the solution his way and I think he was justified in wanting it his way. He shouldn't have been told to call Vortex; Cameraland should have taken care of it and it would never have gone as far as it did. I would have been unhappy to be treated that way had it been a $50, a $100 or a $1,000 scope. If a vendor sells you something broken, they should take care of it.


It's disturbing to me how few people can understand this simple concept.
I do not own any vortex products , nor have I do business with "doug" at camrealand and I encourage everyone to read the two above post very carefully and and think

Karma is a bytch....

Maybe if Camera Land doesn't want to exchange defective "demos", they should put a bold statement in the description "sold as is. Any warranties are processed through the manufacturer."

I've purchased several items from Cameraland, including display models. Nothing I've read here would prevent me from buying more from them. Probably just the opposite.

I've spoke on the phone a couple different times with Neil in the last few weeks.

Very easy to get along with type of person.



Cameraland is top notch.

Okay... in real simple terms, so that a feeble minded old man can understand, why would have been more of an imposition for the OP to send the damaged scope back to the manufacturer than sending it back to Camera Land.
Two syllablewords, short sentences, no vague abstract concepts, please...

Everyone seems to be willing to accept on faith that the op's statement that the scope was actually broken when unboxed is true...there is no factual proof of that, and no way of proving it.

That would imply that Vortex sent out a broken unit with no QC check or oversight...that's highly unlikely.

At this point, the best outcome for the vendor would be to send a return pickup label and refund this guy's money. Otherwise, it will only get worse from here on in if continuing to deal with this customer.

I'm afraid that Doug and the Vortex crew might be too used to dealing with decent folks, but any additional amount of time spent in endlessly trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with is going to end up being more costly in the long run.

I would have said, "Sir, I'm sorry you had a problem. I've already sent you out a return label for the item as we speak. When you receive it, have UPS pick it up and we'll issue a full refund immediately."

Gone in 20 seconds...time is money.

Otherwise this guy will have you all dancing around chasing your own tails for months and months because he likes the feeling of power and the attention it gives him.

In my business, I try to sort these types out in the beginning, but that's harder to do on the internet.

Rule #1 of successful business is, "Don't ever be afraid to fire your customers."

He did not buy the scope from Vortex. Camerland took his money. Cameraland owes him a working scope or his money back. Cameraland did not sell the scope as used or possibly damaged - it was cosmetic box damage maybe a small handling mark. He got a scope that was thoroughly trashed and Cameraland basically told him "not my problem, call these people..."

#1) A reputable business would have offered to refund his money if he wasn't satisfied with the proposed resolution - based on what both parties have posted, it has never been offered.

#2) Camerland should have offered to send out a replacement scope and deal with the warranty issues with Vortex. This business of Camerland having to ship it back to Voertex, then Vortex to Camerlamd, then Camerland to the Customer is bullchit - this isn't a warranty claim. The OP NEVER received the merchandise he paid for - Cameraland took his money, they owe it to him NOW. If there is any shipping rodeo that needs to happen, its between Camerland and Vortex - not the OP.

#3) Not every manufacturer has a 100% replacement no questions asked warranty policy. Apparently Vortex does and Kudos to them, but I can see why the OP's BS alarm went off.

There was never a legally binding purchase between the OP and Vortex. Vortex could tell him to pound sand - they sold the OP NOTHING.

If Cameraland had said:

Sorry that happened - "I'll get you a replacement scope shipped right away or you can have your money back" this would never have been posted. Cameraland is the party that took the OP's money, not Vortex - he was not wrong to expect Camerlamd to honor their agreement.

Posting on the forum, regardless was not wise - he had all the leverage he needed with his CC company.

David

My experiences with Cameraland on two recent purchases have been 110%.

In one of those purchases, the wrong item was shipped. The mistake was caught before reaching me, and the correct item was shipped (Vortex Dakota tripod kit) with some plussed-up options at no cost to me.

Another demo item received in 100% as new condition (MRAD eyepiece for spotting scope).

The fact that the Boss is on this forum, with genuine concern, and making things happen for a PO'd customer speaks volumes. You don't see that every day.

In my opinion Cameraland represents the best of American business ethics. The fact they are a family-owned business makes it even easier for me to choose them.

This ^^^
I just ordered another scope from CL yesterday. Once again I worked with Neil and couldn't be happier with the way things were handled. CL has always treated me well and I will continue to do business with them.

I, like most of you, have used CL in the past and have purchased several scopes. I have apparently been lucky in that they all worked and have therefore been quite happy with their service. However, If I had purchased a scope from them and it was broken and they told me to send it to the mftr. I would have been furious as well. I would have expected a replacement on it's way the same day and a call tag for the broken one. Having read all 11 pages of this post even CL finally admitted that's what they should have done and will do in the future. What disturbs me is that's not the response they started with. They were rude and condescending 10 pages ago. If I bought a scope from a local distributor, got home and it didn't work, I would be back to that distributor and home again with a new scope in an hour. Or I would have my money back. I certainly would not be talked into handling it as a warranty repair through the mftr. Years ago CL's prices were good enough, or everyone else's were bad enough, that buying with a CC online through CL made sense and I guess I was accepting a certain risk having it shipped UPS. Today, everyone is selling scopes at an identically reduced price. The internet has at least brought consistency to pricing as it is so easy to "look up" everyone's price. I did buy a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 for my AR from a local distributor for $100.00 off a few days ago which was the same discounted price everyone was selling them for. I'm getting ready to buy a 20-60x80 Bushnell Legend or the Vortex Viper 15-45x65 spotting scope however, after reading this post, I will have to admit that even if CL was significantly lower, I would probably buy elsewhere. CL's whole attitude in the beginning of suggesting it was a "slight inconvenience" to receive a broken useless scope in the mail and then telling the purchaser to handle with the manufacturer is insensitive, unprofessional and lazy. This has been a very informative topic indeed.

Yes indeed.

I have been buying on the internet for many years now. Back in the old days, eBay feedback listed ALL negative feedback from day one of a buyer or seller. It was interesting that some sellers could have hundreds of transactions with no negative feedback while others might have 5 or 6 negative feedbacks in 1,000 transactions. I came to realize that even a few negative feedbacks were significant. It's like some sellers think that they can throw just a little feces into the water and no one will be the wiser.

I've also bought thousands of dollars worth of camera equipment and related items from New York firms many of which are closed on Passover, Saturdays, etc. It was illuminating when I visited New York City and saw some of the establishments with big glossy ads in the magazines; they were little holes in the wall. When I started with aerial photography I dealt with a number of New York establishments and in the end after various bits of negative experiences, I now only deal with one on a regular basis and with a couple more occasionally.

As I said previously, I had one previous buying experience with Cameraland for a high end scope and have no complaints about that transaction. Whatever some may think about Ringworm and how he handled his issue, I have no reason to not believe his side of the story nor do I think the public internet flogging of Cameraland inappropriate given the circumstances.

I would have gladly called vortex as neil said to rectify this issue. When you look to buy discount you have to realize that there is a reason it can be discounted. Warranty is very often only done by contacting the manufacturer in discounted products.
As agitated as the op seems to be in this thread I can only assume how the initial conversation with CL.
Although i have never bought from CL, due to the very favorable reviews of CL seen on this thread, I will make a purchase from CL on my first opportunity. One bad review doesn't mean much.

If you like your Camera Land ...you can keep 'em.
CL is a lot nicer on the forum here than in person on the phone.
When a seller , internet or otherwise, has to be beat-up to do the right thing ...they aren't worth the powder to blow 'em to hell, or make another purchase.
Cisco

Cant believe the OP's balls are so swelled as to take this to a public forum!!

PM is pretty easy!!!

Not my way of doing business but, YMMV.

As posted in another forum, I have bought a camera, lenses, several binoculars and many scopes without a glitch. Cameraland was always top notch is CS and helping with information.

Time is going to come when life throws some of you a bitch of a curve.

This is nothing more than a minor easily dealt with inconvenience.

OP should send scope to Vortex and then have mom change his diaper. Good god.

^^^
YEP

Or since the problem has been solved and the company has resolved to handle things differently in the future, the thread could die a natural death.


But do feel free to denigrate the fellow that achieved what he wanted to achieve.

Have dealt with Doug, Neil and company many times, in person and on the phone. Have always been satisfied with the product and service. Despite everything said in a negative light here, I will continue to do business with them. As for the public battering that some find appropriate, air your beef and get over it. Demos are demos. Let the buyer beware... The manufacturer offers a lifetime warranty for a reason. Especially on their lower end models.

I too have dealt with CL several times. Always professional and extended a better price than expected. Will continue to do business with them in the future in spite of the mud slinging here . Done !

Sounds like it could not of happened to better guy. Don't they make medicine of some sort to get rid of ringworm...........? Something we might all consider. Any vets out there

Some of you people are pretty dramatic about the sales process. You are paying a vendor your hard earned money to put a scope in a box, tape it shut, and ship it to you. It is not some magical experience, and it is not like you commissioned him to paint a portrait of your family.

Leupold isn't perfect either. Years ago I purchased a 4X M8 from Midway. Everything arrived in perfect shape including the film-wrapped factory Leupold 4X scope box. Inside, however, was not a 4X scope, but rather, a 3-9X compact. I did think about sending it back, but it really wasn't Midway's fault. Good scope too.

Or we might consider Remington. When the manipulation handle peeled off the bolt of my stainless Mountain Rifle I called their service department so I would get a good shipping address. I was told to "bring it" to a local service center. They gave me the address - a place some 500 miles distant. So I sent it there. A few days later I got a call saying they needed money to send it to the factory for me. I gave them my card number. A couple weeks later they had it back again. They called again- "you'll need to pay postage so we can send it back to you." That was efficient (and cost-effective! NOT!!)

Sometimes you know - if you listen to your gut- what needs to be done. This thread may be one of those examples where that didn't happen.

unimaginable arrogance around here

so when someone lists a scope in the classifieds, and those buyer gets it with a loose rattling lens, would it be appropriate for the seller to wash his hands of it by instructing the buyer to send it to the manufacture?
after the seller stated publicly that three scope was "100%"?
you know that would not be appropriate.
as I state.d, vortex has stepped up to handle the issue, removidng cameras lands responsibility from the issue, which, for all intents and purposes used what Neil was attempting to do.
maybe my Southern accent lead him to think I was some hick to be rolled on.
regardless.
I don't spend a lot of money so the loss of my business won't kill him, what little I do spend can go to swfa in Texas from now on.
nothing but good service from them always.
pass the buck to vortex.
and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't capable of using their common sense.

I cannot believe people are questioning continuing to do business with CL over this?

No doubt the OP is correct, but to continue this bashing to try and deliberately ruin a reputation is wrong IMO

Why don't you just say that the fellow beats little children, pulls the heads off chickens, and is gay.

What sort of weird arse f_ckwit introduces crap like that into a thread about rifle scopes.

Grow up you wanker.

Well, I recently dealt with ringworm here, bought a Leupold scope of all things. 100% as described, and the price was a bargain.

Cameraland is a great company, always took great care of me. In this case I would have wanted them to send out another scope on their dime and I'd send the defective one back.
Who the heck wants to deal with sending a just-purchased product back to the manufacture?...get serious. That's bad business.

C-land screwed up here. It probably doesn't happen much, they are a 1st class dealer, but it happened here.
Kudos to Doug for the public apology.

I've never been in a New York City State of mind.

Sounds just like Walmarts policy with Firearm sales.

If you have a problem, don't come to us, go to the Manufacturer.

Their Store, their rules. The policy is prominently posted for all to see at the Gun Counter. If CL has this policy posted clearly on their Site, I see no issue. If they don't, it should be on them.

What seems to be lost in all this falderol is that Mf'gers frequently build product that are available only for a short time...seasonal Christmas & T-Day labled specials in food & clothing items, Valentines & Mothers Day for wimmen folk, closeouts on disc'd goods, damaged and repaired stuff, Blems like Nosler(SPS)/Sierra(Graf)/Hornady(Midway)...in '83 or '84 I sold all I could get in SAKO 2700's (Ltd Quantity production run high gloss Deluxe grade blue w/oil finished old style square forend stocks in 4 calibers only to clean up an overstock of the Deluxe barreled actions) and 2 of us wiped out the plant in Rihimaaki 6 months ahead of Plan. 3 months later I had dealers screaming for more at the discounted closeout prices that 2700's were when they had been told to order as many as they expected to get with no reorders available ...and these kind of goods are heavily discounted by the Mfg'ers and the smart retailers pass on the discounts based on the cost forwarded by the Mfg'er.

So when said Retailer sells out of that particular seasonal/limited quantity/ disc'tnd product for any reason THEY AIN'T NO MORE AND AIN'T GONNA BE NO MORE ON THE SHELF in case someone needs a replacement at the Point of Sale....but in this case there was a solution at Vortex Customer Service in Wisconsin.

Having said all that, I stand behind the "Executive Decision" Neil made to help his customer achieve the best possible outcome by referring RW to Vortex's CS Unit...and Wallah!!! Vortex had a NIB unit they would have been willing to ship to RW AT NO CHARGE. I wish all my gun & hook dealers would have been so efficient.

Same song 2nd verse is what's gonna happen with the guys in the new store Midlothian in this same exact deal...'cause I don't believe Skylar has anymore authority for a 1st Request Cash refund without having the scope in hand than Neil does & given his usually smaller On Hand Inventory most likely given the same advice IF the Customer still wanted what he'd ordered...but I could be wrong. I'd bet you'll never see a this kind of double discount available even at the new and larger facility. SWFA's Business Paradign, based on my observations, do not allow for it as they are not being OFFERED the deals from Mfg'ers that CLNY is, with their much lower Sale Volume and Market Penetration.

Remember I WAS Sporting Goods Distributor once upon a time...and worked at the largest & oldest (1854 to 1982) one in Dallas and put most if not all of the Dallas area retailers in business at one time ...but that's another story. FWIW this statement is not a slur on the guys in Ellis County in any way ...it is just a simple statement of fact at this time. I look to see SWFA becoming a much larger but more multifaceted Retailer...and right now is mebbe the best source for Rings & Mounts and other assorted shooting items as well as their line of TacShooter Optics and related stuff etc I know of...but they ain't close to being in the same league volume wise as CLNY no way no how..and because this is a Price Related Buying Decision Issue to begin with...yadda yadda.

SO RW FWIW ...Please go shop SWFA's "Sample List" and see how that works for you...kudos to Dr Phil...'cause I haven't found a steal of a deal in any thing but oneseytwoseys at most.
Ron

I had a very similar incident about five years ago and got the same treatment. It must have been my funny European accent.

piglatin?......sorry. <grin>

Baloney. Neil made an executive decision to get out of the work of replaceing the scope. Neil's choice was not "the best possible outcome" and it was made with no regard to the client's preferences. The best possible outcome would have been to send ringworm another scope ASAP.

That is exactly right. $100 or $1000 it should have been replaced from in-house stock immediately.

You guys willing to deal with a third party with a just-received product are 100% suckers.
I've always viewed Cameraland's service and staff as THE BEST in the business. Hopefully this won't happen again.

There were two options:

1. Cameraland could have requested RW send his scope (with them sending him a shipping label) to them and they would have sent him another display/damaged/etc scope. It would have cost them shipping back to them then shipping to Vortex. RW would have been out nothing and would have received a scope equal to what he purchased.

2. Cameraland could have requested RW contact Vortex who would have had him ship the scope to them (Vortex covering shipping) and sent him a NEW scope. It would have cost Camerland nothing extra on the shipping, RW would have been out nothing and would have received a NEW scope of greater value than the one he purchased.

I like efficiency and common sense. I'm not big on the "my feelings were hurt because I wanted it this way" stuff.

Now consider this, in the future if all of Camerland's dealing with Vortex (or any manufacturer) run a risk of them having to pay return shipping, shipping back to the manufacturer, and shipping for a second item to the purchaser, who do you think is going to carry this cost in the end product price? Maybe that Vortex was so attractively priced because of how warranty issues were handled... Think common sense and efficiency. RW is coming out better with Vortex sending him a new scope than he would have been receiving another demo/damaged box scope.

I left on the 16th for a hunt, and came back today to find this CF3 of a thread. No wonder some long-time members are swearing off the Campfire.

If this post keeps going there will be only a few not on my ignore list.....give it a rest Guy's....we were all on the same team.....Rick ...or Moderator... Needs to stop this...
Archie Solomon

This is exactly why i don't get my salsa from New York City...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mule Deer - You nailed it. This is incredibly petty.

only thing I got of any use out of this thread is that when I need optics I will check out cameraland first. all the rest was a goat rope.

Ringworm should be thankful that his replacement is coming directly from Vortex, because if I were Neil and had to mail him another after seeing this thread, I would rub my ass on it.

LOL

This thread will take it's place among other legendary idiotic Campfire threads and be known as the "Battle of the used $100 Vortex"

Ringworm takes on corporate giant CLY.

Shots fired-- 110,000
Deaths-- 0
wounded---- 6 vaginas.

Just kidding. Figured everyone could use a laugh.

The worm gets a new scope and Doug has been a gentleman. All is right with the world.

Time to bitch about something else.

Damn that's nasty.

27 seconds is all I could watch.

This thread will take it's place among other legendary idiotic Campfire threads and be known as the "Battle of the used $100 Vortex"

Are we talking about principals or money? Would it sway your opinion if I sad my case was over a $1250+SH Zeiss Victory 2.5-10x50. And nor Camera Land nor Zeiss USA sent me a replacement scope of any kind. All I wanted from them is to send me the agreed upon and paid for product and not the lower end Zeiss Classic what I have received in the box of a Victory scope.

Well that sucks.

I'm with Doug, Neikl, and Cameraland.

Period.

Ok...

CL is easily amongst the last places,from which I'd purchase anything. Never have understood why folks swoon them and have long thunk it funny.

'Course John Burns was banning people for a spell there too.

Laffin'!

Too many folks that shoot straight,to roll dice with snakes.

Am I on your ignore list?

I guess I'll never know.

I'm going to be loseing a lot of sleep over this.

Limited optics selection locally.


Scopes are easy.


Bino's are tougher to order because it's nice to check them out in person.


CL is actually pretty friggin' sweet(IMHO) because you can call up and talk to an owner.


Scratched up my G15 and CL has had that fuucker for almost 2 weeks, not even an e-mail update..... WTF Neil?


grin

Holy crap!

Holy smokes, this thread is still alive?

I thought maybe the first 12 or so pages would have certainly covered it?

Last year I bought a Demo pair of Zeiss Victory off Doug when he advertised them here. The demo pair I received had smudged fingerprint marks all over the lenses and also had some pretty good marks on them. Tried to email Camerland several times and left a phone message and never received ANY response. I sent pics of how the binocs were received and details of the condition. Just no respons. Contacted Zeiss but they said I'd have to send them in and they would be evaluated because they were demo units. Sounded like a pain and a long wait so I just sold the binocs at a loss and decided that was the last time I'd do business with Camerland.


I will say, they were awful helpful when selling me 3 pairs of Ultravids and a pair of Swaros.

It doesn't matter what they were, there is either a warranty, or there is no warranty...there is no "evaluation".
And if there is no warranty they should not have been sold to you.

Interesting. Another disatisfied Cameraland customer. Who would have guessed?

Another thing I learned on eBay was that many times neutral feedback was just as bad as negative feedback. There are many who, when they receive a defective item will do just as you did; say nothing negative and eat the loss.

The is another story I recall from a few years ago about a purveyor of various types of produce. If I remember correctly it was also a New York establishment. They would get rotten fruit in some of their shipments. They would then just put one piece of rotten fruit in the bottom of a customers bag of good fruit. The customer would find the rotten fruit at the bottom of the bag upon getting home and would just think it was just a mistake.

Guess I'll throw this out there. Bought a "Demo" Zeiss Conquest from SWFA's Sample List a couple of years ago. It was advertised as a Demo B, which means it has some marks on it. Put it on a 22 mag and it wouldn't track at all. Contacted SWFA and they said that I could return it and take the hit for the 15% restocking fee, or I could send it in to Zeiss for repair as it was a "demo" item. Sent it back to Zeiss and they fixed it for no charge.

Funny part is, I didn't go online and bash them for their customer service... Guess I should have whined online about how horrible a vendor they are.

So lets see if I have this right. CL sold a damaged scope to a customer and then wanted said customer to deal directly with the factory rather than exchange or refund as any reputable co. would have done. Customer posts on line and after a rude and condescending response where they demand an apology CL decides they were wrong and change their policy to something more fair to the customer. Customer gets beat up on line for 15 pages while CL makes themselves out to be the victims and then the bend-over-backward heroes. Other forum members praise CL for being so good during this CF rather than thanking RW for exposing and getting changed poor customer service and a bad return/exchange policy that CL admits was wrong by the very fact they changed it. Customers continue to criticize RW while more and more people come up with their own CL horror stories. I for one want to thank RW for bring this injustice to light and commend CL for changing their policy to one more in line with the rest of the industry. For those of you defending CL rather than demanding justice for RW, which benefits us all, theres not much I can say you'll understand. The rotten fruit in the bottom of the bag story has me thinking though. Surely CL would not have sent RW a scope they knew was damaged knowing when it was discovered their "policy" would have been to tell him to handle it with Vortex? Regardless, all of you that have been giving RW such a hard time should be asking yourselves why? I can't for the life of me understand.

+1

This thread reminds me of The Safariman episode.
CL's reputation far exceeds actual performance and customer satisfaction.

Just to expand a little on the issue I had with my Zeiss Victory binocs from Cameraland,..


After seeing the condition of the binocs, I tried to be as tactful as possible as I wasn't looking to call anyone out. After previously spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $4500 on high end optics at Camerland, I was certain I'd only need to give a slight hint at being unhappy for me to be taken care of.





https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...Number/7194465/what/showflat/fpart/1/q/1


That got me no where, so I politely sent Doung and Neil an email stating I wasn't happy with the condition of the binocs. Message was read but no response. I then sent a second email directly to them because I thought I might have got lost in the shuffle. No response. I then called and left a message where I was more direct about the problem. No response. I then called Zeiss and explained the issue. The lady wanted me to send them back for an evaluation. I then called the next day hoping to speak to another person at Zeiss. That representative told me the same thing.



So for those of you who are bashing ringworm for the call out thread, you might want to ask yourself this: In the rare event you do have an issue with Camerland, do you want to get my results or Ringworm's?


I ended up losing around $250 when I sold the binocs a short time later because I thought it was right to post blow up pics of the blemishes and even then, I ended up refunding the buyer another $100(part of the $250 I lost) because he wasn't happy with the condition(Offered a full refund including postage).

Zero communication speaks volumes....

+2

Guys,
Here�s a quick word on this situation from Shamus Terry here at Vortex, Doug�s in-house sales contact.

To everyone involved,

Although there was perhaps some poor communication from the beginning, Vortex and CL have always just wanted to make sure the customer was taken care of ASAP.
It has always been Vortex policy to instruct dealers of any size to send the customer right to us with any issues. We always feel this way we can take care of the customer first and work it out with the dealer later.
This may have not worked in this situation, but our past experience has been that the customer receives the best,fastest and friendliest service when dealing directly with us.
Sometimes the dealer doesn�t have the back-up stock or man power to give the same service that we can. The main thing is that we feel the customer is #1 for both of us and try and team up when possible to give the best experience.
We have learned from this situation and will do everything we can to avoid this in the future. All of your thoughts and opinions will help us work together with our dealer to give the best experience possible.
Thanks to everyone for their support in this great industry and trade. Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions or comments.

All the best-

Shamus M. Terry
International Sales Manager
608-335-4486 (Cell Phone)
800-426-0048 Ext 312
www.vortexoptics.com
The Force of Optics

Thanks for posting Shamus. Hopefully that will put this to rest...

Can we get the same statement from M. Jensen of Zeiss USA?
When I called them to offer some assistance in order to resolve the matter, basically they told me to go and pound sand.
" It is the vendor's responsibility to properly match the item to the box and advertise it accordingly" was their final take on the case.

I don't see ringworm's issue as being a CS issue at all other than in his own mind.

Everyone involved is stepping up to that he gets much more than his $100 worth, and they responded to that immediately on request. That's what you want a vendor to do. If rw wanted a refund he should have asked for one.

These other cs failure issues are much more serious, and noteworthy, and should have been brought up when they were more relevant.

Well, this has led me back to keep doing what I've been doing for the last 40 years...buy Swarovski and Leupold from my LGS....

Show me a company that acknowledges not that they made a mistake, but rather that there was an approach that would have been more customer friendly that they could have followed, and did not, apologized for it, committed to getting it right from now on, and I'll show you a company that I want to do business with.

Anybody can make a mistake, but it takes one helluva good company to fix it the way that Doug is doing.

I've been very impressed with Doug's response to the issue. He'll have my business for a long time, and I recommend Cameraland to the Fire.

Steve

RW-

Just now seeing this thread. I have been treated wonderfully by Neil and Doug @ CameralandNY many times. Even When Minox gave me a new scope it still had a canted reticle like the first one. Minox offered to cut me a check. I wanted another scope and nothing to do with Minox.

Doug was kind enough to give me the same $$ that Minox was either in check form or store credit. He also wanted me to ship the second lemon scope to him so he could send it to Minox Germany for executive inspection or something like that.

Now, I never call people names on here as it is not productive. I'm going to make an exception. You're a frigging dumb@$$. Call Vortex if you have not already (I didn't read 10 pages of you being a whiny b!tch). You have a case of CMPH AKA Chronic My Pussy Hurts - shamelessly stolen from someone on here. Cameraland told you to call the manufacturer and I have 0 doubt that Vortex will send you a BRAND NEW unit. That's what they did for me with some $300 binos thathad some fogging in the lenses- sent me a new pair and claimed nothing was wrong with the old one. New ones had no fogging around the edges and I understand Vortex doesn't want to admit they let e lemon slip.

Now I run a customer service department and I am glad you're not one of my customers because since I run the department I decide which [bleep] we're going to tell to GFT. You sir, are one of those people that would get a "have a nice day! *click.* I bet Cameraland will make right by you on their dime, just to shut you the f@ck up.

Here, I think this will help improve your outlook on life: http://www.vagisil.com/

GMAFB.

Now I am going to go back and read this whole abortion of a thread

This thread has had way "too long" of a life so it is time to educate some here on how it works for some mfrs. to move along some inventory that is in a refurb. demo. open box, damaged box,
discontinued model, etc.

These mfrs. look for a respected seller to take these products
on, which are then sold at a discounted price of course.

It looks like to me, CL gave the proper advice to just send
this scope directly to Vortex, as they will warranty it in any case, and that is what Vortex told them to do, as they are very good with warranties.
No need for a middle man, wasted shipping costs for everyone.

For ringworm, I do think you do need to consider changing
your forum name.

I am thinking a better forum name may be "tapeworm".
Think about it, or look it up.
I do think this may be the answer to your affliction.
It does seem a Drs. visit is in order.

Hate to pour more gas on the fire, but I just read 90% of this thread including all of ringworm's and Doug's posts.

Gotta say, a "demo" type item was purchased, not NIB. If this was NIB it would have been reasonable to expect the retailer, CameraLand, to replace it, or the manufacturer.

For a "used" item (let's face it, that's what this essentially is) the correct course of action is to contact the manufacturer. Especially since it is Vortex and they have top notch customer service.

And ringworm- you even stated this was not your first purchase that you were not satisfied with from CameraLand so the thread title is wholly inaccurate. Something tells me this won't be your last either.

I've always had great service from CameraLandNY. And I hate everything about NYC, especially the mindset of the people there that everything in "The City" is so much better than anywhere else, so that says a lot.

bigfish9684 out!

Well, in case you forgot, here is Doug's initial response to ringworm's problem. Ringworm was "slightly inconvinienced" and Camera Land was owed "an apology."

That doesn't sound like a stellar customer service response to me.

If I sold anyone on the 24 Hour Campfire a $5, a $25 or a $50 item, claimed I was unaware of the damage and recommend they take up the matter with the manufacturer I'll bet there would be a negative reaction. The fact that it was a $100 item is irrelevant. For some it would take over 10 hours of work to buy such an item. For others it could take 30 minutes or less just to put things into perspective. For those pompous ones who thought ringworm should just let things slide since the scope was only worth $100, consider how you would feel if you were defrauded on an item that took you 2 or 5 or 10 hours to work for.

It is obvious that others have been "inconvinienced" by Camera Land besides ringworm but they didn't bother to initially let us know about it. How so many are ready to defend such tactics just because they happened to come out unscathed after dealings with Camera Land is a bit hard for me to fathom.

If Doug had apologized to begin with rather than make excuses for Neil under the pretense of doing things the "most efficient" way possible, this thread probably would have died long ago.

It's not stellar customer service to screw a customer once in a while; it's below average customer service.

I hope ya'll who love Camera Land have a long and happy relationship with them.

Gru-Munchkin:

Have you ever had any experience with purchasing anything
or sold anything ever. I am thinking not.

Have fun in your "Land of Oz".

Farmboy1, just go back thru the thread and make yourself a list of who is on your ignore list and who you'd feel comfortable with dealing...Some think they need to tell the world to make it right....I Have one Question...? Where the hell is Bricktop in all of this....? He know the rules and Laws on everything..!!!!!!
Archie Solomon


Gru-Muchkin, Yes you have won a spot right at the top....I wouldn't buy or sell you
Anything.....I know you don't care....Neither do I....

I've bought three scopes and a rangefinder from Camera Land. I've dealt with Doug, Neil and Doug's brother when Doug was on vacation. They are all nice people and Neil is an exceptional employee. His professionalism is above reproach.

No company is perfect and they all make mistakes. I don't like Camera Land's policy of only shipping items to the credit card billing address. Doug explained why to me and it made sense even though it was a pain. The three scopes I've bought from Camera Land just happened to all be Vortex.

Camera Land is not perfect(what company is), but I believe they try their best to be. So I personally will continue to do business with them and if I ever have the money would love to come to NYC to meet the staff and see the store.

Avoid this shiit�.support your local gun shops. Go where they know your name when you walk through the door, before they are put out of business by this crap.

I would love to support my local GS. When I bought my Conquest 3X9, I went into my local GS to get one. They were $100 more expensive than every store on line. When I explained that Zeiss had reduced that scope to $399 at every other source on the web, they just grinned sheepishly. If they go out of business, it will be because they want to extort clueless people.

On this issue, it is nothing more than a cultural issue. Southerners know how to talk to people. Most northerners can seem blunt and obtuse to us, even if they don't mean to, They are simply more direct. CL offered the most direct and expedient method to deal with the problem. That blunt solution seemed uncaring to Ringworm and he was offended. CS should be there to please people even if that takes a little more time than offering the quickest solution. Had CS been a lot more southern (cordial) and started the conversation with an apology, offering either a return to them for refund-replacement, or suggested the possibly better solution of dealing directly with Vortex, Ringworm would never have started this thread. It is clear that CS failed here if for no other reason than Ringworm left unsatisfied. Had CS taken a bit more time with Ringworm to assure him that all would be made right this thread would never have started. Ringworm was simply offended by the blunt and seemingly uncaring way he was spoken to. We southerners are not used to such bluntness. A NY guy would have probably never thought twice about it as they deal with bluntness ( which we consider rudeness) every day.

Mr. Clark,

I agree with what you said here except for the part highlighted in red. I'm not referring to the OP here, but in a transaction with a glitch in it, it's a fact that no matter what is done or offered some people will never be satisfied. The OP was offered a NEW SCOPE. If I were Doug, and that didn't end the conflict, I'd leave the offer as it stood (new scope for the broken one) and go about my day.

I'd rather not buy a Tasco at the local gun shop. They carry very few quality products. When they have a Leupold it's a VXI or Rifleman. I've never seen a fixed power Leupold in any of the local gun shops. In the rare chance that they have a scope/bino that I would be interested in they have it priced well over what anyone can purchase it for online. I've asked them about ordering specific products to try to give them my business and they come back with prices that are outrageous. Honestly, it's hard to find a desire to give someone my business if I don't think they want my business...and that's fine, lot of folks online do.

You are correct that you can run into that rare individual. I possibly should have made mention of that in my post, however in this case I think it was the " you got a pencil, here's the number" NY style abruptness that caused the offence. As I previously stated, most New Yorkers, or even most northerners (in my experience) just have a more direct way of speaking and wouldn't have meant any offence or thought twice about offering an answer like that.

I have send doug alot of messages over the years and he has answered every single one quickly .
I have bought plenty of optics from him as well.I did buy a vortex PST from him that had crap glass but i did mount it and used it for a while then just sold it and chalked it up as a lesson learned.

You and your explanation are more than a little annoying.

That's because you're from PA. Your post just proves mine.

Yeah, yeah, you southerners are perfect and all us northerners are the devil.


I've heard your song and dance routine before.

I dont understand how everyone things Ringworm would be defrauded. He is going to leverage his 2-5 hous of work into a product that would have taken him 7-10 hours of work to purchase. It is the most efficient solution. At this point, he has not be defrauded of a thing. If a call to Vortex was found to be unproductive, Cameraland would have stepped up, I have no doubt. This thread is pointless and petty.

Some of us have gone that route. It didn't work out so well.

Not at all sir, and I am sorry if I painted the picture with such a broad brush. I have met many kind and gracious northerners, of which you are likely one. It's just that I've always noticed northerners, especially in large cities, to be more direct and abrupt in their speech. I don't think they mean it as an insult, though it can be taken that way when you aren't accustomed to it.

Haven't read the whole thread but all I can say is wow..

I agree with this statement, but interestingly enough, it was my local gunshop that got me to Cameraland. I walked in to my local store with $800 cash in my pocket to buy two Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40. I stood there at the counter looking at them for a long time. All the help was busy talking to some kid who wanted to look at every knife in the counter. They were telling stories of their favorite knives etc. After about 20 minutes, I left the counter and went home and posted about that event here on the campfire. Doug contacted me and sold me a higher level, silver in color Zeiss for my $400 and I am better off for it. I bought another Zeiss from a gentlemen here on the campfire for a better price as well. Problem solved.

Trust me, most of us northerners who live in the country talk just as slow and polite as you southern boys who live in rural areas.

I live not too far from hundreds of Northerners. Very quiet folk.

It could be a TV series, "How the Worm Turns".

Poor taste....

Like most shooters here....I too buy online. Probably more used items than new .
Most of my online purchases would be from Armslist.
I like to spend money and the new items I buy would be purchased from gun shops. It is worth a lot to me to not have to go through the internet. It all sounds so fuucking good until the deal goes south.
When I pull my dough outta my pocket it feels good and I mostly drive a damn hard bargain. I don't ever feel the need for instant gratification and I can walk away.
I have several new high end scopes put away that I came across in gun shops all over the country and bought for the hell of it whenever I need them.
Just my personal practice.
I spend too much time online anyway. It Fuucks up my charming atitude.

I'd buy again and again from cameraland, their customer service history and prices stand on their own merit despite what the OP has to say.

..very

I can vouch for that. Those backwoods boys from Pennsyltucky are no different than the southern fellas in their patience, politeness, and friendliness. Many parts of Pennsyltucky are riddled with cowpaths for roads, not interstates and skycrapers.

No offense meant to any, but I've spent a good amount of time in the north and not everyone is a city slicker.

Jason

Doug,

I've bought from you in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Ringworm is a whiney baby.

I worked in retail for a while and can vouch for the fact that the customer is not always right. Customers can be giant pain in the butts at times and can make some of the most unreasonable demands.

If it were me, I wouldn't be upset if Ringworm was pissed. At least that way, I'd never have to pick up the phone and listen to his whining.

They should have stayed at home.

I've had quite a number of W PA guys come hunting with me over the years. The vast, vast majority are good, solid guys. A couple of them have spoken for every mule deer tag we get for the next 5 years. I guess they like our company as well as we like theirs.

I shared a house in college with a girl from PA(Harrisburg). She was mellow and down to earth. Her dad actually owned the house, he came to visit once, nice guy.

I know another person from PA, he is cooler than most people from Montana....grin

If I went to Wyoming for the first time and met Larry Root, should I think all people from Wy are douchebags..............?

I pray for Wyoming's sake that he's not a native.

Native? He's not a human being.

They probably wish they were.

Maybe something we could learn a lesson from.

Never trust a prick. Count on it.

I didn't think you could follow up your previous post with a worse one, but you did.



P

This is my take on ScopeGate

Ringworm-My scope came in today damaged.
Neil----What can we do to take care of this for you?
Ringworm--Could you send me a different scope?
Neil----Sure I can get it out today. Or if it would work out for you I can get in contact with Vortex and they can handle it direct the same way.
Ringworm---Thanks, I'll just have you handle it as you can get my scope out today.
Neil--- Sorry that happened and thanks for calling.

After owning 2 businesses and being in sales for another, it always helped to keep in mind that the customer is always right.

Disclaimer- Have purchased one item from CL an am satisfied with purchase.

Chainsaw, you almost got it right.

The customer isn't always right...but the customer is always the customer.



P

What a deal, paid for a demo unit and gets a new scope !!!

No experience with CameraLand but I'm not a virgin to New York City Camera stores... Lesson learned.

A little of that goes a long way with me.

You get what you whine for. Lacking in character .

I have lots of dealings with both Doug and Neil. I've found them to be stand up guy's that will do everything possible to help you out. Doug has called Pentax before on my behave to iron out some warranty work issues and gone back 5 years to pull a purchase receipt for some Leica Bino's that I didn't register so I could get some warranty work done on them.

I'll buy from them again without hesitation.

Best of luck guys and a thumbs up from me.

Terry

Those are Americans you [bleep]!! Your lack of character is appalling....

I agree. What a dirtbag!!!!!

Na, he's a prick.

FO boys.

Battue, it gives me great satisfaction that you have injured your puzzy crying over this.

To the rest of you, If you don't like it tough schit.

Well at least ya'll aren't bashing Doug anymore. I'd say it worked.

I never bashed Doug. I have had excellent service from Cameraland.

You, on the other hand, should feel shame, if you are a man. Truly.



P

Yea, that's about as bad as all the Japanese tourists yapping it up at the Arizona Memorial. Felt like tossing a couple overboard....

I didn't see anyone getting upset when rrroae made his remark about southerners.

Funny how that schit doesn't work both ways.

Thought you were defending Doug?

Like I said, you can't trust a prick.

I like this. Is that what happened? No.

1500 CC's of vagisil will fix that yankee snatch right up.

Lets cut to the core of this Moses.

The reasons for, historical implications of and the social divide of that war have raged since the first shot was fired. You can debate the whats and the whys. You can take sides within the context of States rights.

One thing you can't and shouldn't do is slander/desecrate the resting place of the men, women and children who lived thru the horror. Makes no difference if they were from the North or South.

If a Northerner made the same inference to a Confederates resting place my feelings would be the same. You stepped over the line, plane and simple and it can't be justified.

Thats all you got? You're nothing but a paper cutout of a real Southerner.

A campfire lecture on the Civil War is just what I needed.

Thank you. It's all so clear now.

You're accusation of desecrating the resting places of yankee soldiers is quite humorous.

Trying to throw women and children in the mix to bolster your case is pathetic and dishonest.

Posting a pic isn't grave desecration you cretin, but feel free to keep making schit up.

It's all you're good at.

Guess they are quiet folk in that no longer can speak for themselves. Funny how that worked out. And you are more than welcome to send them home. We would love to have them.

You're running uphill and you ain't got the legs to make the top.

Just so I know, what disparaging remark did I make about southerners?

I'd buy you a beer anytime.

It's not about the why, it's about respect. It's about some kid, 150 years ago, scared, tired, hungry, who thought he was doing his duty. It's about that kid, someone's son (think about that, if you have kids) getting a bullet in the gut or a bayonet in the chest, dying alone on some bloody battlefield far from home. What were his last thoughts? State's rights? The stain of slavery? No, he probably just said "Mama, where are you?" And died.

And you're pi$$ing on his grave.

So go ahead, wave your flag and stomp your foot, re-fight battles from a century and a half ago, and see what changes. In the meantime you are showing your true character which is, I must say, really base.

Do you ever understand the idea of shame? If you were a man you would.



P

One great thing about internet forums is you see the diversity of opinion we have in our great country - and how many really cranky and unhappy people are out there willing to share.

I certainly don't think Cameraland is perfect and sometimes have disagreed with their opinion on specific items, but they are a darn good optics outfit and go out of their way to try and provide customer service. I recommend Doug and his team all the time when folks are looking for a good deal on quality optics.

One of my pet peeves is being pushed off to the manufacturer when an item I just bought from a reseller doesn't work so the OP certainly has a point. At least you don't have to make an appointment to return something like the Apple store tried on me last time. Not buying from a retail source in protest is always a valid method of expressing your displeasure - I doubt CL will notice and this thread will be forgotten in a short time.

You guys are spot on.

It wouldn't make any difference if the graves were those of Japanese soldiers from WWII, or Iraqi Army soldiers from the First Gulf War.

Moses's post was just plain disrespectful.

Regardless of whether Moses has started Civil War 2, this thread needs to die.

23 pages of this crap?

Move on people.

It�s about manners and class. You were clearly out of line







Next time try some Southern Hospitality, you arrogant, pushy, disrespectful Northerner











John, there are [bleep] on the internet. Not everyone has the dignity and class you do. You will just have to learn to ignore them.

Yep.

Spent 3 days at Gettysburg about a month ago. Walk across the field where Pickett's charge occurred or stand on Little Round Top with Chamberlain's guys and you'll soon realize that both sides were incredibly brave men - regardless of your position on the issues. There is awe-inspiring power in those sites and graves. They are sacred - period.

Ah come on, those Southern boys had a cake walk moving across that mile of open ground. Problem was it was a cake walk thru a dozen forms of hell.

Those in Gray hallowed that ground as much as those who wore Blue.

how the hell did this stupid thread started by a disgruntled azzwipe, get down to the Civil War? Damned if I'll read it to find out though.

Disgruntled azzwipe, for once, has a partial legitimate gripe. Chooses to broadcast gripe on a public forum full of CL lovers instead of quietly handling himself.

CL issues condescending rebuttal.

Legions of azzwipe haters come out defending CL.

Legions of i dotters and t crossers point out i's weren't dotted, t's weren't crossed in this deal, azzwipe has a point.

CL admits asswipe had a point, resolve to do better.

Vortex contacts OP, issue resolved.

Legions of CL buyers report many, many thousands of $ spent, CL was pleasant while taking $.

A few indicate azzwipe isn't the only one that CL may have left a few i's undotted, t's uncrossed.

Legions of CL buyers report many, many positive customer service anecdotes w/ CL. No problems w/ CL.

Legions of anti-azzwipe suggest azzwipe was the root cause of problem.

A southerner thinks there is a communication/manners gap between Northerners/Southerners that led to this problem.

Northerners suggest that's stupid - a lot of Northerners are every bit as quiet and polite as their Southern Brethren.

John Moses steps up with this post:



Scopegate is forgotten - There is now unified hate by anti-azzwipes and i dotters/t crossers for JM.

You are now up to speed.

HTH

David

Thanks for that! 24 pages of posts summarized nice and neatly.

not to surprise anyone, but, I could give two hairy FKs what most of you think.
you only make yourselves look like retards when you discount a legitimate gripe based on your ideas about my personality.
secondly, vortex sent me a replacement scope.
thirdly CL APOLOGIZED VIA PM... apology= wrongdoing.

lastly...SMD AND GFY, haters.

Not to surprise you, but it is very safe to say that we care less than you do, regardless of how little it is that you care.

An apology does not equal wrongdoing. In retail, irrespective of fault, it is sometimes deemed a wise course of action when someone believes they have been wronged despite the facts to the contrary.....

Just a little bait will bring the stupid out in this place.

[quote=ringworm]not to surprise anyone, but, I could give two hairy FKs what most of you think.[quote]

yes you do

I bet you are the life of any party anywhere. With an attitude like that you should hang out with my MIL!

thanks, I guess. What an effing dog's breakfast of a thread. Geez

Now that he has what he was looking for, can we end this thread????

Canzes9
Could you do a book report on The Bounty Trilogy, By Nordoff & Hall, maybe the cliff notes version ?

TTT

Well that was fun!!!

My acronym vocabulary has now expanded by this worthless thread...

First time I called Camera Land I dealt with a Douche Lord who made me so mad I hung up. After I calmed down I called back and was able to speak with Doug. He apologized and took care of me. End of story. Except that the Douche Lord has never answered the phone in the four years since when I've called Camera Land.
I'm a fan of CL even though they aren't perfect and have made mistakes. I've made many mistakes in my career, I wonder if that makes me an anomaly or normal?

On several occasions Neal or Doug have pulled an optic off the shelf and put my name on it until I got the money together to pay for it. They weren't long delays, but they were delays and CL didn't require me to put down any money, as in a lay-away. Good folks to work with.

I read through some of this and felt like my mind was turning to mush! All this North/South thing is totally ridiculous. When I was in Uncle Sam's Army and at my permanent duty station I roomed in old WWII barracks with another southerner and two "Yankees". One from Indiana and one from Brooklyn. We had a great time together ragging each other about our speech and about the things we ate as kids.

I had my Mom send me a 2x4 size flag of the Confederacy and hung it over my bunk to rouse the other two guys. the guy from Indiana had an 8x10 of Gen Sherman beside his bed.:) There was no animosity in any of this. We played hearts together nearly every night and had beer and a schnitzel sandwich as an ongoing tradition.

There's good and bad everywhere...it doesn't make one hoot in hell where you're from. It's all about what's in the heart and in the immortal words of Forest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".

we did the same when I was in ....only i'd tell them guys from the south ...that it would be called "my last name ...march to the sea" lol ...good times them were...

BTT^^^^^

Yes, you got it.

I would figure I made out pretty good to pay demo price and end up with a brand new unit. I probably would have came on here to tell everyone about it too, only because a deal like that doesn't get any better. Let's dumb this down a little. Pay reduced amount for an open box item that comes with full factory warranty. Item shows up defective and you have to send it in to the manufacturer and in return you end up with a brand new never used item. Would you have been happier if the demo was not defective but only clearly well handled and grubbed up by prospective buyers? I bet the fellow who beat you with the stupid stick is really really tired.

+1

Would that be directed at me?

It's like welfare .You get more than you paid for! Minimal contribution maximum return. And everyone else pays for it.

It's a rough life for some folks.

Nope, it was for the guy who came on here whining and bitching about getting a new scope for demo price

For those watching, just let this thread die.

Post of the year.