Been thinking about zero-retention lately and how my hunting rig would hold up. I've got a 4-9x SWFA MQ on a 7-08 Montana. Went shooting with some buds yesterday when one proposed a 1-shot, 1-kill challenge at 490 yards. Basically shoot 1-round into a 6" painted circle at 490 yards. No help reading wind from others or second shots allowed. We did this round-robin with 5 shooters.
I went first, but instead of flopping down in the dirt I put my rifle in a cheap plastic case (Dosko?). I threw the case about 15', from about 4' height onto dirt and logs. Threw it a second time... roughly the same distance and height. On the second throw, the barrel punched a hole in the case and muzzle went into the dirt.
Flopped down, and hit the white paint on the left target for a kill. There might have been a shift in zero, but I couldn't tell. It kept ringing steel the rest of the day without a hiccup
Should have disclosed that I removed the bolt before chucking my rifle.
The other shooters had a Leupo 3-9x, Leupo 6x, Vortex 3-9x, and a Weaver 3-9x Tac... but none were willing to try the drop test
I bet the Leupo 6x would hold zero best out of those others but will need to sweet talk those dudes into letting me chuck their rifles in the interest of research.
Should have disclosed that I removed the bolt before chucking my rifle.
The other shooters had a Leupo 3-9x, Leupo 6x, Vortex 3-9x, and a Weaver 3-9x Tac... but none were willing to try the drop test
I bet the Leupo 6x would hold zero best out of those others but will need to sweet talk those dudes into letting me chuck their rifles in the interest of research.
I would like to know how my FX-3 6x42 would fare in this situation, but don't think I could bring myself to actually throw it....
I seem to remember the scope on 'Sticks rifle that he broke in via a similar process (video) was a FX-3 6x42 w/ M1.
I don't think a "drop test" is all that unreasonable to test a hunting rifle. The hard case helps protect the rifle and scope from dings and sharp impacts while still allowing the guts of the scope to get jarred.
I've had mishaps while hunting. One time a cased rifle fell out the back of my rig while unpacking, slamming into the ground. Another time I had a Leupo 6x and Tikka slam into a boulder while traversing a steep hillside near Hell's Canyon. Have driven that Montana onto logs while hunting the steep coast mountains.
I'm sure my test is mild compared to airline travel
I don't think a "drop test" is all that unreasonable to test a hunting rifle. The hard case helps protect the rifle and scope from dings and sharp impacts while still allowing the guts of the scope to get jarred...
....I'm sure my test is mild compared to airline travel
Agreed. I'm glad there are people like you that are willing to do this sort of rigorous testing - it just makes me cringe...
I have never performed an actual "drop test" because I don't think it would tell me much. Meaning, just because POI didn't shift that time, I don't think I'd feel confident not checking zero if it took a similar drop in the field on a 7 day hunt.
Most of my rifles get treated poorly by most standards. The longer they retain zero and remain repeatable, the more I love them. That's become my "test."
My guess would be that the FX-3 would hold zero the best. I'd be impressed if the VX-3, Viper, or Weaver held their zero.
But I've got no proof one way or the other.
I miss place my .338 one day elk hunting and it slipped and skittered about 50 feet down the side of the mountain away from me. It had a newer 4x weaver in the rings at the time. I finished the day hunting , a little nervous that it had shifted Point of aim. So the next day I carried a lighter rifle and killed a bull. Once I shot the .338 again the point of aim was still right on the money. The side down the hill marred the finish on both gun and scope but to what extend it took any impacts I do not know as it was loaded and I ducked behind the tree it was leaning against for cover till it stopped making noise.
Not on purpose. Dropped a Zeiss one time trying to mount using one piece Talley's on a grooved receiver by myself. The scope made it through. About a 6' drop on hardwood floor.
My 3-year and 8-year old sons dish out more punishment on my gear than most adults I think they inherited my ability to break things.
Your point is valid and single cycle tests can lead to a false sense of security but can weed out certain gear. The scope beatings will get more elaborate as time goes on.
I did some drop tests a couple years ago. Succeeded in adding some beauty marks to my scopes, but never found a setup that held zero 100%. And I was using scopes with the best reputations for zero retention.
As a result my obsession with scopes being zero'd has not abated. I glue all my rails or bases on serious rifles, and really would like to get more Defiance Deviants, so the bases simply CAN'T move. I want to get those experiments back up and going one of these days, just as soon as life calms down a skosh.
Interesting and brave test! Though I'm not sure how you would draw a comparison with your buddies, unless their rifle, mounts and rings were all the same. Still, it's a good first data point.
Carl - I also epoxy the mounts on most of my rifles. Gives me more confidence. But I've never done this test on any of them.
I have never performed an actual "drop test" because I don't think it would tell me much. Meaning, just because POI didn't shift that time, I don't think I'd feel confident not checking zero if it took a similar drop in the field on a 7 day hunt.
Travis
Ditto to above.
My 14 year old grandson did a drop test on my rifle while we hunted last week. Savage 111 wearing a Leupold VXII 3-9x40 in Talley one piece rings/bases. He was trying to adjust the sling and had the muzzle up, butt against his upper thigh when he let the upper sling loose. The rifle muzzle swung in an arc down to slam into a massive embedded rock on which he was standing. No give to the stone and it put a 1/16” deep cut in the outer edge of the muzzle crown, with metal ridges pushed up on each side of the cut.
We stopped hunting with that rifle immediately until we could test it for zero. It hit so hard that besides concern for the scope I wondered if it had tweaked the barrel, or barrel to action alignment.
It shoots exactly as before. He killed a bear with it after we shot it to confirm that it was still shooting where intended.
I need to file those ridges down and reblue the shiny metal cut.
I did an accidental "drop test" several years ago climbing a mountain in the dark, when my sling slipped off my shoulder and my rifle fell on a boulder, hitting on the scope. It made a "ding" in the scope, and what I didn't notice until I aimed at a deer later in the morning was that the cross hairs had parted! I didn't get that deer. Leupold replaced the crosshairs at no charge.
Climbed to the top of an 8' blind. As I reached for the door I felt my sling slipping through my armpit. The rifle, wearing a Leupold 6x42, hit the ground horizontally, scope first, on a big flat Hill Country rock.
Proceeded to whack a doe in the head @ 150 yards.
Dropped my gun three times that weekend. Has never happened before or since.
I have not had such luck dropping zeiss rifle scopes, a Kahles will withstand a fall to the ground from your back a few times but not to a concrete floor.
I have drop-tested quite a few scopes over the decades, some even inside a rifle case, though none deliberately. Some stayed sighted-in and others didn't, though I have never seen a brand-pattern. I suspect mounts have as much to do with it as scopes.
I have drop-tested quite a few scopes over the decades, some even inside a rifle case, though none deliberately. Some stayed sighted-in and others didn't, though I have never seen a brand-pattern. I suspect mounts have as much to do with it as scopes.
When I did my tests, I didn't drop my rifles very far, about a foot is all. It started out as me knocking them over when sitting via bipod, as I had had just that happen many times in the field.
My tests were done on a lightly padded shooting mat over concrete, which I think was my problem. The turrets would sometimes cut through the shooting mat and contact the concrete directly. This busted up the scopes and cut up my shooting mat, and I think put a lot more intense force into the optic than most field knocks. When I get back to this subject, I'll do it over dirt instead.
Like I mentioned, I never found any setup that was impervious to zero shift doing that, but that was before I had an action with an integral rail. I will say, of all the stuff I tested, a Bushnell DMR mounted on a rail that was epoxied on tested the best. That setup was on my comp gun for two years and remained my least finicky, most reliable setup.
My brother was Elk Hunting in Colorado with me and he had his 7 mm Mag leaned against a pine tree and the wind blew it over and the scope Obj Bell hit a rock and it broke part of the way from the scope body . I had to loan him my backup 270 for the rest of the hunt . The scope was a Leupold 3.5x10 VX-3. Leupold replaced the scope .
This is something that I believe we all need to pay attention to. I've never intentionally "drop tested" my mounted scopes. But I've lost count of all the times they have hit the ground hard. Went down once and literally fell on my upside down rifle. The old 4X B&L got a crushed elevation cap and nice ding on the front bell. When shot later that day, the rifle was three inches to the left. Turned out to be the front Ruger scope ring had come loose. The scope was almost perfect. It's still with me today. Over the years of hunting with others in rough country, I've seen far more mount problems or failures than scope problems. I also have an old 4X Leupold that has taken several hard knocks and falls. Then one day, while my rifle maker was testing the rifle by slaming the bolt, the reticle broke. That experience led me to believe that scopes do suffer from cumulative damage just like some have written. I understand that some have done some less harsh impact testing. Try whacking the scope bell with the side of your hand a time or two, with the rifle in a vise, then shoot it. This has shown that scopes with small objectives tend to hold zero better than much larger scopes. At any rate, I never go on a hunting trip w/o a complete spare rifle. Even with the toughest scopes and mounts, anything can break if stressed enough. E
This might be the stupidest thing I've seen posted on the fire in 10 years. powdr
Why is that?
Originally Posted by 4th_point
Good post Formi.
Do the specialized .mil groups have unique drop test or impact requirements?
Jason
Sometimes. In general the scopes are never tested separately. When a rifle system is being tested for a contract it is just that- a system. The rifle manufacturers put whatever scope they want on their submission as long as it meets the specs on the contract. There have only been a couple of open competitions for just the scopes in the last 20 years.
Carl,
I remember when you were dropping yours. I hadn't bedded any of mine and you were seeing shifts with the same scopes I was and am using. Most my "testing" had been with good picatinny rings mounted directly to the receivers of M4's and SR25's, or on rifles that had bases with 8-40 screws with plenty of rust to help help hold them... grin.
After the last time we conversed about it, I started playing with a bunch of different setups on hunting rifles. The end result is that lots of scopes shift and lots of bases shift. We see basically no shift with NF and SWFA scopes up until truly stupid abuse when mounted with solid picatinny rings directly to an integral reciever rail and when ALL fasteners are bloody knuckle tight. That means action screws as well.
The same as above with good picatinny bases mounted stupid tight to normal receivers will see little (less than .2 mil) to no shift with the drops as in the video above.
When using "standard" rings/bases like Tally's, DD's, etc, with the same scopes it is not uncommon to see 2-4 MOA shifts from drops of 10-12 inches into grass and soft dirt. Not everytime, but often.
Everything comes into play when talking zero retention form hard use- fit of bases to reciever, type of bases, types of rings, quality and material or rings and bases, tightness of ALL fasteners, ring spacing, and of course what type of scope is used. Obviously the mounting system matters, but actually dropping scopes with different bases and rings and seeing the results is interesting.
The best favor one can do any scope is to maximize ring spacing and get it as low as possible.
The best favor one can do any scope is to maximize ring spacing and get it as low as possible.
As a general principle OK, but exceptions exist. For example, it's a good idea to keep the rear ring 3/4" or so ahead of the eyepiece on 6x Leupolds, lest you pop a reticle. Putting a ring right next to the power change ring on a 4-12x40 does it no favors either.
I have a funny story regarding drop tests. Back before I had good taste and believed in purchasing quality optics, I purchased a Simmons 3-9X40 with rings for $20.00 on clearance in a little hardware store in East Texas. I stuck it on top of my Remington 7400 and went out to sight it in. I could get it on target but 2-3 shots later, it would lose zero. Rings and bases were tight as could be, the scope was just Chinese junk.
Anyhow, walking back from the woods, the rifle proceeded to jump out of my hands and into a rocky creek bed about 12 feet below. Fortunately, it was unloaded, so it just sustained some pretty good bumps and bruises to both the scope and rifle. Well, I decided I'd see just how far it had knocked my zero off. Much to my surprise, the first shot was right on the X. The dang thing never lost zero again over about 40-50 rounds. I finally pulled it off and replaced it with a VX-IIc when I started getting better taste and a bigger paycheck.
Moral of the story: If you have a cheap Chinese Simmons that won't hold zero for schit, throw it down about 12 feet into some good Texas river rock. It will either break or work perfectly forever. Either way you'll be coming out ahead. *Results not guaranteed* haha
As a general principle OK, but exceptions exist. For example, it's a good idea to keep the rear ring 3/4" or so ahead of the eyepiece on 6x Leupolds, lest you pop a reticle. Putting a ring right next to the power change ring on a 4-12x40 does it no favors either.
The reticle issue with 6x Leupolds is a design quirk and as long as one watches not to over tighten the rings they will be fine. As far as the 4-12x Leupold they all can be like that and I'd just as soon not use a scope that is designed poorly to begin with.
Also had a Nikon Bolt crossbow scope that went scope first onto some solid rock. I had my x-bow leaned against the truck door (shoulda known better) while getting my boots on. My father in law came around the side of the truck in the dark and bumped it.
I passed on a decent doe that morning worried that my zero might be off and not wanting to risk wounding her. Later that afternoon, I checked it and it was still right on the money at 30 and 40 yards. I was really impressed. Score one for Nikon.
Mathman, you're exactly right. It is a Vari-X IIc. My bad. Seriously though, do the folks at Leupold just sit around trying to figure out how to make their model nomenclature as confusing as possible.
This might be the stupidest thing I've seen posted on the fire in 10 years. powdr
Can't disagree really. While I find POA/POI scope testing very interesting, throwing my stuff around in the dirt intentionally really isn't very interesting.
Interesting to hear on the Talleys, though I was already about to replace the set I have on my hunting rifle with a rail, glued on. Longer term I think I want to rebuild it around a Defiance Deviant ultralight.
I've been quite busy, it will be nice to have some free time for personal projects again. I would still like to figure out some standard tests that make sense for zero retention testing.
I've got an idea.......why don't we all go plunk down $3000 and buy a Swaro El Range, Zeiss RF bino, and Leica HD-B's. You can all come out to my muley lease and we'll climb up in a windmill and launch those new Swaro's out on the rocks. We'll see if they will still range and glass stuff.
After all, they're all the same while in the closet.
Every day with every failure I get less and less accepting of failures in gear, with scopes making up the VAST majority of issues. Don't have much issue with bases that are pinned and permanently bonded to the receivers, although I do believe that integral rails are the way to go. Unfortunately I'm not thrilled with the reliability of Remington style triggers.
Agreed on the testing, however it's hard to nail down a standard as the weight of the system certainly factors in to it. In general I've been doing two drops on the left side, two on the right and one directly on top from about 12 inches onto generally soft ground. The right setup can take a lot more.
I don't get the beef with a guy that wants to test his equipment in an extreme fashion? Its not your money and it provided us with useful insight. Anyone willing to bet that a Leupold VX3 of similar size would have survived the test?
At the risk of sounding negative, this sounds like something that the guys at ARAIG that think Big Stick/Boxer/Busheler hung the moon would do.........
Jimmyp: Your quote: "I am not buying any more conventional variable riflescopes". I wonder why? I have MANY, MANY dozens of variable power scopes (on Big Game Rifles, Varmint Rifles and several pistols) and have used them for decades with NO problems. Of course I would never intentionally throw my scoped arms onto the ground! Conventional variable scopes are the only type of scopes I seek out for my guns anymore - I am that confident in them. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
Jimmyp: Your quote: "I am not buying any more conventional variable riflescopes". I wonder why? I have MANY, MANY dozens of variable power scopes (on Big Game Rifles, Varmint Rifles and several pistols) and have used them for decades with NO problems. Of course I would never intentionally throw my scoped arms onto the ground! Conventional variable scopes are the only type of scopes I seek out for my guns anymore - I am that confident in them. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
This!!
I have only four rifles, but they all have conventional variables.
people don't intentionally drive their cars into walls either, but the car manufacturers test survivability by doing this with crash test dummies for a good reason.
Someone posts on the fire that they test their scope by throwing it around on the ground and it works fine, that says something about the product.
I have sent Leupold, Zeiss, Kahles back for warranty repair after dropping them, in some cases doing nothing to them and that also says something about the products.
people don't intentionally drive their cars into walls either, but the car manufacturers test survivability by doing this with crash test dummies for a good reason.
Someone posts on the fire that they test their scope by throwing it around on the ground and it works fine, that says something about the product.
I have sent Leupold, Zeiss, Kahles back for warranty repair after dropping them, in some cases doing nothing to them and that also says something about the products.
You must have missed the post within the past month or two where the guy's NF bailed on him, and he didn't even drop it.
Form and Jimmyp, I worked very hard and long to afford the good equipment I own. I own a S&B, several expensive Leupolds, a Signature Safari Burris an older Redfield w/#4 and a Weaver like new steel w/duplex. While I have dropped my S&B 15 feet from a blind w/no ill affects I would under no circumstances throw any of my custom rifles w/their scopes on the ground or ground cover w/rocks, whether in a case or not, to satisfy some whim dreamed up by some [bleep] on the fire. You guys do that and get back to me. Oh, don't forget to get the dirt out of the bore and check your mounts before trying a shot. powdr
This might be the stupidest thing I've seen posted on the fire in 10 years. powdr
I've never read any thread ever posted that I've considered to be stupid. Mostly because if one pays close attention to all of the comments posted whichever way they may lean one has the opportunity to gain a small nugget of useful information no matter how small.
I guess once you've learned all there is to know then threads become useless information.
What I learned from this thread is that I lean toward Deflaves idea of time testing though I did read with an open mind.
I guess that me finding the reading useful and interesting has nothing to do with the selfish world of ( Everything on this forum should be specifically tailored to Powders version of useful)
There are only a handful of scope models that I currently use. They get drop tested continually...unintentionally. Often get dented objectives and eye pieces, adjustment caps, tubes, etc when hunting. The ones that really get beat on are the ones that spend the most time on the atv and tractor (get used at least 5 days a week). Have had two different sets of Talley LW's break on those guns. Have not had a set of DNZ's that replaced the LW's break yet. Maybe a specific test could be set up for drop testing, but hard use is testing enough for me.
people don't intentionally drive their cars into walls either, but the car manufacturers test survivability by doing this with crash test dummies for a good reason.
Someone posts on the fire that they test their scope by throwing it around on the ground and it works fine, that says something about the product.
I have sent Leupold, Zeiss, Kahles back for warranty repair after dropping them, in some cases doing nothing to them and that also says something about the products.
You must have missed the post within the past month or two where the guy's NF bailed on him, and he didn't even drop it.
And that is good information as well. The thing is that we need to look at it all with an open mind.
I have never performed an actual "drop test" because I don't think it would tell me much. Meaning, just because POI didn't shift that time, I don't think I'd feel confident not checking zero if it took a similar drop in the field on a 7 day hunt.
Most of my rifles get treated poorly by most standards. The longer they retain zero and remain repeatable, the more I love them. That's become my "test."
Travis
I have performed drop tests a number of times. Most of them involved me ending up on my head or some other less that graceful position and none were intentional. I don't see the point in destroying expensive equipment intentionally. Most of the time, my stuff passed the 'drop test' however, I did not high level of confidence until checking zero.
Thanks for the info and thoughts on mounts. I was thinking more about the scope, thinking that it would be the weak link. Need to consider the mounts more. I'm using steel mounts and steel rings on the Kimber. The tests might get more elaborate if I have time. New job at work has given me different toys to play with that should prove useful for collecting data and analyzing it.
Thanks for the info on your accidental "tests"! Many of your stories seem to show that the scopes survived a single drop... which is encouraging.
It seems that there are different camps of thought... single cycle, high amplitude loadings, and the low amplitude higher frequency loadings. Good stuff.
If nothing else, this has been a good discussion and input from the naysayers is also appreciated.
Good deal Jason. Despite my old and infirm age I try to keep an open mind about all things related to shooting and hitting. "Cause that's the way we have always done it" leads a person into old codger land.
I am thinking about my next optics purchase now. Maybe the 16x super chicken and a super chicken 3-9.
Like Carl, I've had a couple lose zero simply from being knocked over while sitting on a bipod.... some had a little rougher fall when they were leaned against something (tree, tailgate, bench, etc.) and slid off. Bedding bases seems to help prevent jars like that from effecting the zero.
I haven't found anything that will withstand being fallen on... especially by my big clumsy ass.
My .17 Remington took a serious fall out of the gun box a few weeks ago. Right on the end of the barrel to concrete. Then continued south onto the scope. Then to it's side. Then it just sorta rattled for a bit.
I once dropped a 4X Luppy off the hood oF my truck. Bent the ocular (eye piece) behind the rear ring. Sent it to the factory in Beaverton OR. The sent me a new scope. Can't ask for more.
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