I am not sure this has been posted on here before, but the news is Vortex is now having all
of their optics made in China.

The Razor and Viper binoculars at least have been made in Japan, for many years.

This is not good news.

How is the Razor going to compete with all of the nice midrange binoculars, such as the
Zeiss Conquest HD, Leica Trinovid, GPO, Maven, Tract, Monarch HD, Meopta Meostar.
They are all made in Japan or Europe.

These are all in the $999.00 range.

Who is going to pay that for a China made Razor ?

They have established a reputation now it's time to increase profits based on a reputation.
Sad, seems to be a trend the last 30yrs or so.

Probably only temporary, Vortex is moving into a new facility in Barneveld, WI in 2018. Was told they plan to handle a large portion of assembly there.

They would not have dropped Japan manufacturing if that is the case. It is now printed made in China on the optic
and boxes.

I'll be sticking with my Leupolds and Meoptas I guess.

Slow suicide if true.

I seriously doubt this, with their recent investment in US manufacturing capability, and the popularity of their flagship Razor line. Sounds like more gunshop gossip.

I never thought they were worth buying when they were made in Japan.

I think the real question is: Will they stay on top of things quality-wise, or trust to the tender mercies of their suppliers? Some contract manufacturers are committed to putting out a quality product and having a long-term relationship with a customer, and others will start cutting corners at the first opportunity. I suspect a lot of importers flit from flower to flower looking for the best deal as well, and that might have something to do with the attitude of the offshore suppliers.

Only Vortex stuff I have is a red dot and a 10x42 bino I got for Christmas. Both are Chinese and have worked just fine so far.

Fück China

Same here.

Source for this news?

I have never owned a Vortex That did not have to go Back in for repairs.......All I have Now is a Vortex red dot ....I am confident it will have to go back Too...

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_amg_riflescope

"Nearly every component in the AMG, from the index-matched lenses to smallest screw, is engineered, machined, and assembled in the USA. The only component from outside the USA is the German manufactured reticle."

They have some made in the Philippines as well. Not uncommon for the lower cost items in China.

If this is really the case then they will have zero revenue from me.

Just another reason to put a nice Leupold on your hunting rifle.

Sitka Gear had the same "business model" IIRC . . .

Exactly. Seems the cool name spurs more purchases than common sense. The millenial crowd seems especially vulnerable to the Vortex name. Never owned one, never will. I have wasted enough time and energy on cheap optics.

I am far from a millenial being 55 years of age.I own razors,kiababs,ranger 1000 etc.I like their top end optics very much.I bought them because they are good glass.Not on the level of the big 3 but have been happy none the less.I just sent them an email and told them how disapointed i am that they have done this.And yes they did confirm that the Viper and Razor are now made in China.I don't know if i will be buying anymore Vortex.I have tried to make an effort not to buy anything if i have a choice made in China.I doubt that they care about me as one customer but i can spend my money where i want.I have been very loyal to them just kinda bummed.

None, and I mean none, of the Vortex scopes including the Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 have glass as good as Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50. Eeven the owner of the Vortex agreed the 6500 has better glass. The same goes for the four Swarovski z5 5-25X52's I had. They are gone. Now I have three of the big Bushnells, one Bushnell 4200 4-16X40, and one Nightforce Varminter 5.5-22X56. Even the Nightforce glass falls barely behind the 6500. The Nightforce does beat in low light on the deer antlers by one minute.

Tim: This must be a new shipping warehouse, to handle those loads offloading from China.

I suspect very little assembly will happen the USA. China even makes all the boxes.

If Vortex keeps up this business plan, things will slide. Anybody can sell optics from China, just takes a suitcase
full of cash and an order blank.

I'll stick with Leupold.

Chinamen can make good stuff, they just need someone there to make sure they don't cut corners in the interest of screwing the guys they're contracted to.



I wouldn't want Leupold making my Peking Duck...

The higher end Leupold's are as good as anything ever offered, I'm talking mark4,mark6 vx6 and up.

I would love to see the email, document, memo, etc from Vortex that all production of Vipers, Vipers PST, Razor, and Razor AMGs will now occur in China.


Even Athlon, the Chinese scope pimps, source their top tier optics from LOW in Japan.....I seriously doubt the maker of the most used scope in the PRS world is going to do something so drastic with no warning. The very recent intro of the Filipino sourced PST Gen II and Diamondback Tacticals make this even less likely.

Hope the rumor is not true but the killer warranty part of Vortex now is understood. American manufactures mind set is different. Most often American and for that matter most European manufacturers number one priority is quality. Only my opinion but competing against Chinese manufacturing I see first hand a much different priority and that is to have a zillion units of replacement crap on the shelf. Of course they have the ability to build quality but why when they can promptly send you another brand new package that may make you forget about your original investment.

liliysdad,

Go to vortexoptics.com - hover over binoculars, click on Razor. On the next page select Razor HD 10x50 - then click on Q&A. I asked them last night where the Razor binoculars are made and today they responded. "We have moved production of the Razor HD binoculars to China."

That is their reply to my question.

Some of Leupold's binoculars are made in China (Acadia, Cascade, the new Tioga HD, etc.) and the new BX-4 Pro Guide HD is made in Japan - as were the now discontinued Mojave Pro Guide HD's. I believe only their rifle scopes are designed and assembled in Oregon. Perhaps some of their spotting scopes may be assembled in Oregon as well, I am not certain there.

gundog.

OK..thats one model in one model line...I still fail to see where anyone or anything had indicated that the flagship Razor, Razor AMG and PST Gen II scopes have changed in any way.

Where's SWFA made?

Japan

Not sure if this arguement holds. Many of these companies are headquartered in US,but get their labor from other countries. So there mindset is American, for what that is worth. They talk about being designed here. I believe they are headquarted near Madison WI.


I had to laugh once, I believe it was Carhartt, a belt, said designed in America. It was Fing leather belt. Nothing to it.

Are some gooks better than others? Quality of work the same? Curious...

leupold is made overseas too

Rifle scopes - no, they're made in Oregon.

Assembled in OR, made all around the globe.

Strange, Vortex is now the largest Sports Optics company in the World... They built a new factory just to build scopes... but now everything is going to be made in China?

Tough being on top, everyone else is willing to make up false news about you...

Why do so many of you hate on winners? Oh, yeah, I probably already know...

Exactly! That's why they no longer put "Made In America" on the packaging.

I have a question for the China haters........have any of you actually been there and seen the factories, met the people and worked with them regarding quality? Now don't get me wrong, I love the USA work force, and the quality that we word capable of, but It is quite possible to get very high quality products from a number of countries. It is also possible to get very poor quality from the USA and every other country in the world. Responsipal world wide companies will only purchase from non sweatshop types of factories.
How many on the fire use and or owne a I Phone.......pretty good quality.....China built. Lots of other examples are out there. As consumers we expect many items at reasonable prices, and when manufactures standard cost products, the labor component is always one of the highest cost line items regardless of where it is built. I'm am not a China lover, but they are capable of producing very high quality at lower standard cost. The average worker in a decent Chinese factory makes somewhere in the range of 500-700 per MONTH in compensation.
Don't misunderstand me on this..... I believe in general that the USA is very capable of producing tremendous quality, and that USA workers are some of the best availible. Manufactires that are based in the USA are faced with a ton of hoops to crawl through and added costs verses many other locations. It is not just about wanting to make more profit.....that certainly is one aspect. As many understand we have legestrated higher costs. And we all purchase many items daily that come from non USA sources. Think back a few years..... I can remember when Made in Japan had the same negative perception as made in China does for dome. Just my 2 cents worth.

WHY?

Everyone in the optics game these days gets parts from all over the world even IF they are assembled here in the USA. I'm not a Vortex guy but I know they build SOME good stuff, these days most of the good optics come from Japan and Europe. I hear guys all the time say Leupold this and Leupold that, I have sent more of our good ole American scopes back for issues than any other and I have broke several. China can and does build SOME good stuff, all of our good ole Leupolds have Chinese glass. It's all about what a company specs and making sure quality and standards are met.

Don't get me wrong, I'll not likely be buying a Vortex product unless it is an AMG or Razor spotter but their decision didn't put a nail in their coffin yet.
future quality and customer service will determine that.

Why not ask smart a--?

Seen the factories, met the people, worked with them. Friendly, capable and have a plan. They not only want to have it all but to sustain their super growth will pursue, purchase and consume all we hold dear including our sacride land and game. Very difficult to live with out them these days but if any group of Americans have the ability for self preservation it is hunters. It is in our blood, wake up and watch your back trail!

I have never found a need for a Vortex. I did put one on a rifle I bought for my grandson. It wasn't as nice as a Redfield Revolution I paid the same amount for. I honestly have a mental block due to the name brand. Vortex? Who names their optics company after the swirl in the bottom of the toilet?

Since you've mentioned this a few times before, what source do you have to verify this claim? They may well be, just curious. I figured it would be Nikon, Bushnell, or someone similar.

I myself seriously doubt Vortex is the largest. Bushnell or Nikon would be my guess.

I am a bit amused about this Made in China stuff. As we all know companies are looking for ways to enrich their pockets. With this many choices we have today I have no problem with a company sending their stuff to be made in China. Obviously it has to work for them (i.e. make more money on each product they sell) for them to do this. What miffs me is they are supposedly lessen the quality of their product and at the same time enriching their pockets. IMO if you are going to send something to be made in China then they should pass the buck on to us while they make a bit more money.

Take for example. Someone at work says he refused to buy a Toyota Tacoma cuz the parent company is not of the US. And I said but the truck is made in Kentucky and its American workers that have the jobs in Kentucky.

I have never bought any of the Vortex scopes and doubt I will. I have tried Zeiss, Bushnell, Nikon and Leupold and they all have worked for me. I know we live in a global economy and parts of everything may be made all across the world. But I chose to spend my money as I see fit.

Nixon is not even close and losing ground faster than any other. Leopold has been top for many years, but last year Vortex stepped ahead and it was published a number of places. It was announced at the NBA Convention first and I saw it in print and in emailed press releases. They were not quite to Leupolds previous 100M but close and Leupolds had lost a lot of ground.

Bushnell is bigger than Nikon, but we'll short of Leupold.

Just a couple observations

I think there is lots of talk about how we hate China,but if we look at weekly purchases I bet we all buy a fair amount of Chinese. It just so happens that in this we have a choice IE Nikon (the Japanese are my favorites) Leupold Bushnelle( the Philips)Burris (lots of Philips)
Kind of like I have a choice in pocket knives I will NOT carry Chinese

I think Vortex is not very good to thier retailers the reason I say that is there are many groups that can do a group buy from them IE here in MI we have a site called Michigan gun Owners they had a group buy Why? They are not retailers and invest thousands in stock The whore thier products to anyone that can fog a mirror
I think that is part of how they got as noteworthy as they have

In fairness and truth I have a few Vortex scopes of course these are better than Simmions Chinese I think the Chinese can build good stuff
I just dont like buying Chinese period but I have for sure

Last how many of us our watching our 401Ks and brokerage accounts cheering them on because they are doing great and one of the reasons is the napkin factory or the bolt company took jobs to China or Korea

Guys this is so complex and Vortex is just a grain of sand

And Yes we live in a world economy like it or not

Hank

There is a small trend to come back. Foxconn will make LCD screens in US, first in US. Nisan, I beleive is adding a plant. Is it enough to make a difference I dunno. Foxconn 10k jobs will make a diffrence to the area, that is for sure.

I only buy Leupold cause made in US. Granted some people can not afford to, or don't care.

OK thanks. How about some links?

IMO, the problem is not the product being manufactured in China, but that they often move production to China to lower costs after they have established a decent reputation. China can produce quality items, but when companies are trying to cut costs, they generally reduce their standards.

My Sig Kilo 2000 rangefinder was made in China, but it has been made their since the beginning and built its reputation on it. I'd prefer it to be made in the US or Europe, but I have faith in its quality based on the research I've done.

LaCrosse and Xtratuf boots used to be made here, but since moving production to China, they've turned into garbage. There are ton so of reviews on their own websites stating that the new boots have failed in less than a year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Vortex changing their "no questions asked" warranty by this time next year either.

Unless I absolutely have to I will not buy a Chinese made anything. I would rather pay more and not enrich an enemy of the US.

I see it as more of a way to keep their no questions asked warranty. It's not hard to keep such a warranty if your profit margin allows you to replace an item 5 times and still make a profit.

I've already heard several stories with junk replaced with more junk. I would rather just buy a quality piece one time. Several other scope manufacturers have just as good a warranty as Vortex as long as you aren't purposely destroying stuff,which no one should be doing anyway.

I have a pair of viper 6x32's and I like them a lot. Also have Zeiss FL's and Leica geovids and ultravids so I know what good glass is.
Won't buy anymore vortex stuff though.

You wont buy an item that you know to be quality, based on an internet rumour with little to no basis in truth? Got it...

What specifically do you not believe, and consider to be internet rumor?

I have owned 2 sets of Vortex Razor Binos 8x42 and a 10x50. I thought they were nice optics but having owned Alpha binos before I could not be satisfied .I got them at a significant discount and would not buy them again even if they were lower priced. They have a stellar warranty but so do a number of companies that have higher rated products with I might add better resale value if you care to offload them.

I have a Vortex Viper on my 22-250 and it works well on that squirrel or targets at less than 200 yards typically. We have a Crossfire on daughters 243 that sees a little target use. My trust in their product line is minimal based on reputation and experience so far and they would not make it to a real hunting rifle of mine used for something bigger than varmints.

I've sent back products from Vortex, they were replaced. The last thing I sent back was a Leupold spotter and it came back fogged the first time but did get repaired properly eventually. The experience hasn't soured me on Leupold but it confirmed that optics don't always work and aren't even handled correctly by the big dog in US optics.

How do you know this?

The statement that "all Vortex optics are now made in China." Thats sheer silliness...

+1 pretty sure Leupold sources their glass like everyone else does. There are not a whole lot of quality glass manufacturers and polishers in this world that could build VX-6 or VX-6HD glass.

I've always kind of associated Votrtex as the 2nd coming of Simmons.

Vortex suffers from the same stigma as Bushnell....they market ultra cheap junk, as well as extremely high quality items. The Razor scopes put them on the map in the PRS world, and the Gen 2 Razor solidified that position. Much the same as Bushnell with their LOW sourced Tactical scopes. Good stuff, diluted by clamshell packages on a Walmart shelf. Regardless, I dont see Vortex taking one of the best selling tactical scopes on the market and shipping it to China....Even the Chinese pimps Athlon keep their Flagship Cronus in Japan...

Vortex would have been better off spinning the PST and Razor lines into their own brand.

Interesting thread, had to get a scope https://goo.gl/sr7yKx reading the thread decided for a Leupold . We are now in a global economy, and want the best quality for the best price, yet all these jobs in the US...

+1

I believe some long range hunters usesome of their higher end scopes. I have gotten then impression some believe Leupold has not kept up with technolgy. For the shooting I do, doesn't matter, will choose American made.

I never been a fan, I have an old pair of their 6X binoc's I bought from doug on closeout. Not bad glass, I use it early season. Not sure I would slum a leupold anymore, but there are many midpriced options, the Tract business model looks interesting and apparently a good product.

China is in dire need for our food production and our farm land!
Estimates seem to indicate 15 - 20 billion in USA land purchases annually.
In its fervor to secure timber, China is increasingly seen as a predator
on the worlds Forests.
Yes we live in a global market and yes we are dependent are a lot of
their goods. Nice to know most of the folks around the campfire have
a clue and last thing we need is to be too dependent.
"He who does not ask remains a fool forever"
Old Chinese proverb.

I have a Viper 6.5 - 20 and a Viper PST 2.5 -10. Both say "Made in the Philippines." No problems so far, but we'll see how they hold up over the long run.

I bought a new Vortex Diamondback spotter to use at the range and it would not focus out past about 160 yards. I called Vortex and they said to send it back. They returned it in less than 10 business days with a replacement scope. The replacement was just as bad. I'll keep using my old Pentax. I know the Diamondback is their cheap equipment line but dang it is poor quality.

Ding, ding . . . . Winner, winner, chicken dinner !

As an aside, I don't know how many people I've heard suggest that they (Vortex) were made in Wisconsin. To this point, the the warranty service comes out of Wisconsin, but as of yet there hasn't been a Vortex made, even assembled in Wisconsin. That, supposedly is going to change . . . .

I just got a new Vortex Razor HD 27-60x80 spotting scope...says assembled in USA on bottom

It seems really sharp to me but I will test it out tomorrow spotting antelope.

Not remotely true. The AMG line is built here in the good ol' USA....and to think the Razor HD isnt "worth buying" is ludicrous. Easily one of the best scopes on the market in its category.

I worked on the jobsite pouring the tip up panels for the main building. The company I work for has a crew there now working on phase 2. According to the Vortex people I had a chance to talk to last summer, they want to move in and start assembly of some products in 2018 with the goal of eventually losing the "made in China" entirely.

I still don't own a Vortex product, but IF they start US production, I'll try one.

Crazy how truth rarely echoes gunshop rumour...

Well then, buy an AMG!

Hmm, I'm detecting a bit of a contradiction here. Are the AMGs built in Wisconsin? Judging by what CowboyTim passed along, I'd say they (AMGs) where not. If in fact they are not, then my previous statement stands true, and Lillysdad needs to reconsider his definition of 'remotely true'.

Pathetic that you would want to perpetuate total bullshit when the obvious truth has been available for months. The basic claim that Vortex never did anything in the WI has been false for a much longer time. But do not let that stop you from checking the "clueless" box on your application.

And, yes the AMGs are built in WI. And no, that does not mean assembled, like a Leupold, it means made. The reticle on some are the only parts not made in WI.

But gunshop rumor is best left on the gunshop floor...

Had nothing to do with thought...it's fact.
Vortex is a big or a dice roll as Kimber.
Seems to be an inarguable point on a forum full of gamblers though.

Go get one. The AMG is made here.

I know a guy who contracts with Chinese optics people to have made optics made for laboratory work. He told me that with the Chinese you get what you ask for- if you want quick and cheap then that's the quality you get. If you ask for the highest quality, then that's what you get. He had better luck having the Chinese make precision lenses and prisms for quantum physics labs than he did with "name" German outfits.

I remember people squawking way back when Japanese optics/cameras got the upper hand on American made stuff. Now the fall guy is the Chinese. I wonder who it'll be in another 40 years? The Brazilians, or perhaps the Moroccans? Maybe the Romanians. Personally, I don't care whose "made by" sticker is on a piece of equipment, as long as it works and hits a price point I can afford.

I can agree with that statement. Especially the price point issue. Not every man can afford "alpha" products.

And some "alpha" products are made in Japan, including some that have been made there for many years.

Saying this or that country makes junk optics hasn't been true for a long time, due to the realities of global manufacturing.

If the Norks keep it up, they'll have plenty of glass for the Chinese to use.

From Vortex's website:

"Nearly every component in the AMG, from the index-matched lenses to smallest screw, is engineered, machined, and assembled in the USA. The only component from outside the USA is the German manufactured reticle. If you're looking for a top-tier long-range precision riflescope, look no further than the Razor HD AMG."

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_amg_riflescope

John

John: Did you notice we are talking Vortex binoculars.

I should have been more clear, when/if(pretty sure it's when) Vortex makes a good 3-9x40(ish) or fixed 4 or 6 power optic in the US I'll buy it. Really the only optics(other than binos) that I use.

I see those AMG models are very spendy. Not sure of their quality. Vortex has never been in my sights.

I missed that given that the very first line in the OP says "all of their optics."

John

They're assembled by meopta in the US. They still use the same glass as the earlier Razors..

This, from another website seems to contradict the rumor. Of course it could be another rumor.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-vortex-moving-everything-to-china-update.824955/

" Vortex has never been in my sights."

Yet you post completely wrong info about them......brilliant!

I don't even own a Vortex product, so I'm not defending them. I just think it was an idiotic thread to start, all things considered. If you don't know what you're talking about, it's OK to just not say anything.

Jeff

Pretty obvious Vortex was in his sights...

If a schit slinger has sights...

Don't complain about farmers with your mouth full. Feeding the world is our bread and butter.

Farmers get a pass for saying stupid schit completely unrelated to farming in your World?

They do not in my World.

I just got a pair of Viper HD 10x42's from Cabela's. They say made in China

And they also seem like a great set of glass.

I am a bit surprised that Doug is silent on this as it seems he/they "created" a chunk of the demand, at least here...

I like the Vortex stuff I have and have used. I have had to send some stuff back for repair I won't deny that. But atleast I know if my Vortex stuff breaks or if I break it, I can send it back and get it fixed. I haven't looked at Leupold or Nikon or any other brands in a long time besides Burris, but last time I looked, if they broke, I would have to fix em on my dime whether my fault or theirs. For me a warranty is gold. I don't have the income to replace my gear due to accidents or no fault of my own. So I now buy based on warranty as long as what I am purchasing works well for my eyes and is quality I can afford and not crap. Vortex to me so far has treated me well. I'll keep using them until their quality and or warranty goes to complete crap. An believe me I have been blessed to use the big three, Minox and various other optic brands. So I tend to buy what my eyes like and what I have experienced first hand, not what some 'pro" suggests is what I need.
I hope the truth comes out soon on this topic. I'd be interested to know. Altho I'll still be a Vortex purchaser but have been leaning a lot toward Burris. No need for new stuff yet tho.

Since when has there EVER been a problem with Leupold's warranty?

That is news to me.

Amen...

When did Leupold cease to be the gold standard on warranty, no fault, no questions, no BS???

You, sir, are incorrect. Very incorrect.

It seems like Leupold, Bushnell, and Vortex are "no fault" companies now. There may be more.

I'll never buy another Vortex product in my life.

Question is, would you pay $600 for that bino made in China?

I wouldn't. The Tract Toric is at least as good for $650. It's a high quality, high performing glass made in Japan.

Sellers experencing super high return on their investment. The reason they are so promoted by some dealers. Chinese slave labor turns out their junk for pennies on the dollar. Less than scrupleous dealers love this advantage.

Simmons would have one believe they were located in Thomasville, GA. As far as their warranty and scope manfacture that was just as much bullshit. See where they are now.

Loved the Vortex comparison to a toilet flush. 😱

I recently bought a Viper PST Gen-2, and its a badass scope...made in Philippines.

Let's hear the details! Tracking, RTZ, adjustments and glass all good?

John

China or Japan ... almost no difference. The Japanese are only producing cheaper, lower quality copies of the EURO makers. It's all about the glass and the R&D. Sorry, but there are only three countries where they make a high-quality glass. Germany, Austria and Czech Republic (MeOpta). Everything else is cheap, low-end glass. Not sure about the US makers but my guess is that even the high-end glass is sourced from the Euro makers and their products are assembled here.

Vortex warranty with keep them in the top five optic dealers for a long time.

How does Kowa make one of the finest spotting scopes in the world then?

About 75% of your post proves you know zero about which you are talking about.

That's the only reason.

You can insult all you want. Kowa is just another Japanese maker that that is copying the Euro glass. Maybe even sourcing the glass from them. I would compare it to Lexus in the car industry. Just an upgraded Toyota. No thanks

Why would I spend $3K+ on Kowa spotting scope when I can get the MeOpta S2 for way less and the quality of the glass is maybe even better.

Heck, I would even rather buy the Cabelas Euro spottings scope for $1800 which is close to half price of the Kowa and you get rebranded S2. If I'm spending over $3K, I can probably afford to buy Swaro, Zeiss etc.

Sorry, you will never see an upgraded Toyota in my garage or a Kowa spotting scope in my gear bag.

Agreed, Shaky does not know much at all about what he is talking about. Some of the best optics in the world
are made in Japan.

I will not give a lesson, on what models, as I don't think he would comprehend, and is someone with little
experience.

Welcome to the Fire, Shaky, but don't try to blow smoke out of your azz...!

How many posts like this before I put him on "ignore"? Let's give him a few. Maybe he's been drinking.

I don't consider it an insult when it's the truth. When you said, "China or Japan ... almost no difference", you revealed your lack of knowledge.

Sorry, just because you know that soybeans never recover from a setback, does not prove you know anything about optics...

You can save your lessons for those with even fewer optics clues than yourself (hardly a target-rich environment)...

And you just showed your ass...

Specify what you want at a particular pricepoint in either and see what happens...

Things are different today from just a couple years ago.

The.Kowa 883 is a top notch spotter infact, after comparison I Sold my Swarovski and keep the Kowa. David Tubbs use Kowa spotters.

Say it ain't so!

It's definitely so!

First of all, when I'm talking China or Japan almost no difference, I'm talking hunting optics and Nikon or Canon photo gear is something completely unrelated.

99% of the hunting optics made in Asia are low(er) quality products targeting the mass market and that one small boutique shop in Japan makes one decent product does not make them an optics experts. "one swallow does not a summer make"

After all, Kowa products are not even available at any local retailer (Idaho) and if Kowa (or March) was the chit, I'm sure at least Cabelas would carry it. Heck, Kowa doesn't even make or sell rifle scopes anymore. Didn't they use to make some cheap scopes? Well, maybe they stopped making them because they were junk.

So comparing Kowa, March etc to Zeiss, Swaro etc is like comparing Toyota & Porsche.

Is that why more high power rifle shooters use Kowa spotters than other brands. The Kowa 883 is as good as it gets.

ShakyHands,



Give me a break! I bought a Zeiss 5-25X50 the other day. It was not as good as my Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50 in bright light. In the low light test it punked out twelve minutes before the Bushnell! Don't try to convince me about the quality of Swarovski. I bought four z5 5-25X52s. None, and I can't say it loudly enough, NONE had glass as good as my Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50. That is with four different guys comparing them.

Have you had a March or a Kowa? Why would you compare a Toyota to a Porsche? One is a sedan and pickup and the other is a sports car.

You are the only [bleep] person on the face of the plant that says Bushnell glass is better than Swarovski.

As for the Zeiss, its japanese glass and not schott.

BTW Dipschitt, toyota makes sports cars and porsche also makes sedans..

The Kowa is a great spotter, but in my experience most lr shooter are either using the Night Force (rebranded meopta) or the STR which both have ranging reticles.

As for the rest of this debate, the Japanese do make some good optics. The problem is name recognition, its hard to buy a Kowa or a 2k set of nikons when you can actually buy Alpha glass for that money.

I've never looked through a set of tracts, but the other japanese/asian glass I've used as a general rule is no where as good as the top end stuff from leica, swaro. or zeiss. (that being said, I'm not a fan of a lot of the new zeiss. The HT's are good, but the new SF's are meh)

While Porsche does not make trucks, Porsche makes sedans and SUVs, just like Toyota.

To wrap it up, if you were to compare German glass to Japanese glass at the same price range, Germany would still win 99% so the only reason to buy Asian products is to save money while giving away some quality and the 1% of the population would buy some small boutique manufacturer items such as the Kowa spotting scope.

So go ahead and keep driving your Asian vehicles while I stick to my German cars.

Porsche sedan



Porsche SUV

There's a lot of truth in this, IMO, especially the consumer respect issue. After owning a Nikon 82ED, Kowa 884, and briefly a Zeiss 85FL T spotter, I've landed with the Meopta S2. I think it's the finest thing on the planet with the exception of the Swaro modulars, but I find $4000+ for this setup is ridiculous. That being said, the Kowa 883/884 gives up very, very little to either one, once again IMO.

The highest end Z,L, and Swaro binoculars are probably the best binoculars made, but you have to include the very Japanese Nikon EDG. It gives up nothing to any of them, but with Nikon's terrible marketing efforts, and borderline CS, I won't own one. Then again, with Leica's well earned schitty CS practices and pathetic warranties, I won't own one of them either. That's a shame because the old 10x42 Trinovid BA was probably my favorite binocular ever. As you and everyone else knows by now, Z and L both "make" some of the optics in Portugal, Japan, and even China nowadays. There are also Schott glass facilities in China if I'm not mistaken. If I were to put my Meopta 10x42 HD's, Swaro 10x50 SV's, Gold Ring HD's, and Toric UHD's on tripods, side by side in the field, I would not be able to see a big muley buck for instance, through one without being able to easily see it through any of the others. You can add the Vortex Razor HD and Conquest HD in there too.

While I may prefer the SV (it's my pick of the litter), the differences are "picking nits" nowadays.

It is a matter of preference, I picked the Kowa and sold my Swarovski. I'd never heard of Kowa until I was Read David Tubbs and that is what he was useing.

What are you smoking? The Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50 goes for less than $900. The cheapest I paid for one of the four Swarovski z5 5-25-50 was $1,350. The most was $1,575. The Zeiss was $1,100 on closeout. You don't know what you're talking about.

The SV's are my favorites by far.

I'd disagree on putting the Razors or the Conquests in the same class as the others listed, The razors IMHO have the worst pin cushioning/Distrotion on the edges I've seen in almost any model. I don't like the conquest glass at all.

I had the gold rings for a couple years, they did very well except for light transmission and low light.

No argument here. I'm not real "bird watcher picky", if you know what I mean. Looks like we agree 100% on the SV's and S2 though.

Kowa TSN-883 Spotting Scope

Kowa TSN-883 Spotting ScopeThe TSN-880 series is the larger of the two newest scope lines from Kowa. We've reviewed scopes before. We've reviewed Kowa scopes before. We've never seen anything like this scope before! We received the angled fluorite model TSN-883 ("Prominar", for those of you familiar with Kowa terminology) for review from Kowa along with the TSN-773. These are 88- and 77-mm objective lens size scopes respectively. The TSN-773 will be reviewed in another article. First impressions mean a lot in this game, and the new TSN-883 makes a big one - the view through this optic is breath-taking and unbelievably bright and crisp. In short, we really liked it.

Physically, the TSN-883 is a very compact 13.5 inches long (without eyepiece) and weighs in at just over 3 lbs (53.6 oz.). For an objective this size, that weight is impressive - it's actually lighter than some 77-to-82-mm scopes on the market, thanks to its magnesium alloy casing. The body is fully sealed, nitrogen-purged and completely waterproof. So are the eyepieces! The eyepieces lock in place, with a push-button release mechanism. The lens hood pulls straight out, and as always, we recommend using it, if only to protect the objective lens from potential damage by scratching or whatever. Beyond a shallow double groove on the hood, the TSN-883 has no device to enable sighting.

When we reviewed the new Kowa scopes, we pulled out the best instruments from other manufacturers that we had in stock. While we won't tell you what the competitor models were (we still have friends at those companies…), we will say right out that the 883 and 773 blew away everything else in their class. By that we mean, these are simply the finest spotting scopes we’ve seen yet. It was a revelation in the field. The degree of detail visible was simply astounding with characteristics of feather wear so clear you would think you were staring at a museum specimen. The image brightness and clarity were riveting. We tried hard to find things wrong with these scopes, and it was really difficult to do. The image stays razor sharp right to the very edge of the field. There is no zone of blurriness, no distortion, no image-bending - nothing. We did note that at the very edge of the field on a bright, high contrast object, there was the slightest hint of color-fringing. So what? The effect is very minor, and very difficult to detect unless you’re looking specifically for it. It’s unlikely to affect a user in any way. Like we said, we had to work hard for this! The colors were absolutely true with no detectable bias. In failing light, the image was remarkably bright at 60x, delivering detail that wasn't even visible in other high end scope models we compared it to. The image quality is so high that it is difficult to write about without sounding like we're gushing.


The rest of the review can be found here, http://www.optics4birding.com/kowa-tsn-883-spotting-scope-review.aspx

I'm not either, but I do like my glass to be clear from edge to edge, CA controlled, and colors to be right.

http://www.rokslide.com/gear/optics/261-swarovski-atx85-kowa-884

Pretty good review, That being said, the 95mm is better than the 85mm (yes I've owned both).

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Swaro does not have a $900 scope because they are not in the mass market category.

Again, Bushnell vs Swarovski is like comparing Chevy with Mercedes or Porsche. Or have you ever seen a car magazine comparing those two?

If you want to compare Bushnell to something, you need to pick some other Chinese made entry level brand. (Vortex anyone?)

Yeah, the 6500 is maybe not bad, but again, it would be a loaded Chevy that drives nice and has all the features vs Porsche.

Just not comparable, sorry.

Shaky, do you own any high end optics ? And also why you are such a snob.

Snob? All I said was that Japan and China are almost no difference and then the Kowa brand came up and others start to compare Kowa with the German brands.

And yes, I do own some very nice glass but I do also have a Bushnell on one backup rifle and a Vortex rimfire scope on one rimfire but that is not the point.

The point is that you can't compare apples with oranges and if you want a high-end hunting optics, Germans do have the upper hand for most applications.

The mid level stuff, almost anybody can assemble a decent product from a glass they probably sourced somewhere in Europe and therefore, there is almost no difference between the China and Japan. (maybe the QC is better in Japan but that's all)

Sorry? I think stupid is better since you apparently can't learn. But then maybe you are suckering me. Enjoy the rest of your posts. One last thing: A mid-range European $1,500 Swarovski z5 can't keep up with a low level Japanese $900 Bushnell 6500. So far I have yet to find any Vortex at any price with glass as good as the Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50.

Ringman

StinkyHands=sock puppet, troll............etc.

I don't get this idea of not being able to compare things. Of course you can compare apples and oranges. Both are fruit, both are mostly round, one is rounder than another, they're different colors, etc. You can certainly compare one scope to another, regardless where it's made. Claiming otherwise shows a very limited thought process IMO.