I really enjoy reading stories of peoples sheep hunts,and they all pretty much mention about the sheep not being a full curl and therefore not legal, at what point does the sheep become legal?.

Dave

depends... here in Idaho if you have a tag for a ram any ram is legal.
In Alaska check this link: http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=sheep.fullcurl
Some places have � curl restrictions and/or age restrictions.

UKdave:

In Colorado, full curl rams are pretty rare. Here, 1/2 curl is minimum legal ram.

I hunted bighorns a few years ago and took the best ram in the unit. It is a 3/4 curl and spectacular.



KC

Full curl is tough to do, especially for those that broom back. Oregon used to be 3/4 but backed off to any ram due to the quantitiy of marginal calls made.

I've noticed on TV, and I think it's one of the Canadian provinces, that they went to an 8 yr age requirement. That demands that one get a really good look to count annuli, and there could be some judgement calls there.

I think the best plan for those limited opportunity things is to regulate hunter numbers and let each be happy with whatever. The real trophy fanatics will do whatever or put in the time to shake out the biggest of the pack. Those that apply on a whim due to some office encouragement, are likely happy with any sheep.

Full curl has many different definitions. A full curl Rocky Mountain Bighorn or California Bighorn is different than a full curl Dall or Stone sheep in British Columbia.

In MT it has to be a 3/4 curl to be legal. Look on the MT Fish Wildlife and Parks website then to the Bighorn Sheep regulations. It will show what is considered a legal ram in MT.

Here's a Montana ram from an "unlimited" unit that is well beyond 3/4 curl. We had this ram spotted six days before the season opened....killed him three days after the opener after waiting out a three day snow storm...

Full curl means that the curving horn has grown until it goes all the way around in a 360 degree circle.

The devil is in the details of exactly how and where we measure the 360 degree circle.

The definition of "full curl" is different in different states and provinces I'm told. I'll try to paste in a link to British Columbia's definition in their game regs, which has illustrations. From the page that appears, scroll down to page 3, definitions. (Edit: just noticed that the sheep definitons are down on p. 4). If this doesn't work you can google BC Game regulations and then go to page 3/4.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlif.../Hunting-TrappingSynopsis_0910_Part1.pdf

Also, what do we do when the tip is broken off, etc?

FWIW, most old timers consider the full curl definition for thinhorn sheep in the BC regs to be a true full curl.

AK is pretty specific about the curl definitions and gives plenty of examples... It requires the tip to grow through 360 degrees and that is when viewed from the side of the curl, through the center of the horn. If the view is a squashed oval that is not the correct view... It must be a circle.

Both horns broomed, or over 7 years old in full curl areas is also legal.

Some areas will put out full curl sheep at 5 years and some Chugach sheep will never close the loop, even though they are monsters.
art

Minimum age for a legal ram in Alaska is 8 years old. I've seen full curl horned rams at 6 years and I killed one this year that was 7 but was a full curl.

Okanagan

Thanks for the link, exactly what I was looking for and easy to understand.

Many thanks Dave

Over 7 is uh, uh, uh... like, like 8!

Hunted the Nabesna Road a lot years ago... That is THE home of tight spirals! I have several that made full at 5.

Shot a tiny ram some years back I assumed was much farther away than it actually was. Curl and a quarter at 8, but 32". I thought he was MUCH bigger...

Yeah, I know and I figured you were going to say that but 7 1/2 is older than 7 and that's not legal.

My ram was 7 years old and he was only 29" on the curl but declared legal by the AWT in Anchorage.

So what happens if you you shoot one that ain't quite legal (even though you really thought it was)?

I hold up a friends ram.....NWT.

scenarshooter that is a great ram. The unlimited hunt is known as one of the toughest hunts in the world, and it looks like you got it done on a monster.

Idaho changed their regulation to allow any ram. They feared too many rams were being shot and left in the field because they did not meet the 3/4 curl limit. It is a once in a lifetime sheep hunt in Idaho so its not like the hunters will have any experience.

Also, the California bighorns in the southern part of the state don't reach full curl. They heavily broom at 3/4.

Lots of nice rams posted. Figured I would post the one I shot this year - again.

Thanks and I agree it is one of the most challenging trophy hunts a guy can do....I started hunting the unlimited ares in 1978 and never even saw a legal ram until 1983!! Rams are scarce and they live in the timber....and there are lots of hunters looking for them. And a lot of years its only a two or three day hunt because the quotas have been filled.

That unlimited ram is a ram that I guided in 2006.

Nice ram Boise..and nice picture!

Here's a ram that doesn't quite go full curl. We found him at the bottom of what appeared to be a previous avalanch.


Here's mine. Look at the horn on the opposite side curling past full.

Here's a pretty good bighorn ram...to put it in perspective I'm 6' 1" and weigh 205. This is one of the largest rams ever out of Montana...203 5/8" B&C. It was found dead in SW Montana.

Mr. jds44;
I�ll address what would usually happen here in British Columbia, but I�ll say up front I have no idea how it would be dealt with in other areas.

Here in BC, compulsory inspection is required for all mountain goat, mountain sheep � all species, grizzly bear, cougar and caribou. As well some regions require inspection of lynx, wolverine, wolf, bobcat, elk and moose.

So if the hunter shoots an undersized animal and realizes it immediately, they are required to cancel their tag, gut it, cover or protect the carcass and then report it to the Conservation Officer as soon as possible or practical to do so.

The investigating CO will ask the hunter a series of questions to ascertain if they exercised due diligence before they shot, for example how does one tell a � curl ram, where is your spotting scope and binoculars, where did you spot and or shoot the animal from, how long you took before shooting, etc.

If it is deemed an honest mistake, the hunter will forfeit the animal and because the tag is cancelled, will in most cases be unable to get another tag that year. If it is a limited entry tag, it will be next time they get drawn.

If the hunter is unable to make a case for due diligence, they will forfeit the animal and have a fine levied. I can�t really guess what amount that might be these days, sorry. It might still vary by species and by how much one missed the legal length by, but I�m not sure.

Many of our local California rams will never make full curl and in fact some wonderful ancient broomed rams wouldn�t make � curl, which is likely why our local LEH for sheep is now any ram.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

Thanks fellas,I didnt realize that the game laws were open to so much "interpretation",we only have "seasons" we can shoot as many of whatever we wish .

yukonel
I would say the horns in the top picture would easily go full curl?

SS
Stud...

When you hold him in your hand and look up close, he doesn't quite go.

UKDave
Look at the curl through a round orifice and you will see the curl is "squashed" by the angle of the photo. Rotating the horns so they curl rounds up to a perfect circle will show they are off considerably more than it would appear.
art

Oh, no such thing as "due diligence" with AK troopers on game law violations... If you turn yourself in for a violation they will hammer you harder than if you get caught hiding something.

In addition to a ticket/fine there will be forfeiture of the game and possibly gun and related gear... An ddo not get caught transporting it in your own airplane or it will fly away on its own, too...
art

So AK law encourges you to hide a screwup rather than admit your mistake and not leave an animal laying in the field? That's just brilliant, ain't it?

Boggles the mind, yes...

[quote=jds44]So AK law encourges you to hide a screwup rather than admit your mistake and not leave an animal laying in the field?

That was going to be my next question.
Would somebody,anybody? hand them selves in if they thought they could lose all there hunting priviliges given the remoteness of most sheep hunting areas and the general lack of people who could "grass" on them? Given where the sheep live i would have thought that sheep country would be one of the best places for the a "SSS"


I told you all i new nothing about sheep horns!!!

In Ak, if you turn yourself in, you will be fined but not loose your gear. If you are caught trying to hide an illegal kill, or worse yet, leave it laying there and don't salvage the meat, then you will loose our gear, up to everything you used from the minute you walked out hte front door of your house.

The point is, if you make a mistake, man up and turn yourself in, the fine can hurt, but nothing like loosing your truck, boat, plane, ATV, guns, glass, so on.

That's in direct conflict with the info Art just posted above...

Mr. UK Dave;
Sometimes the regulations can lead to a fair bit of humor while up on the mountain and if not there hopefully one can laugh about it later.

For instance where we hunt locally, elk must have at least 6 points on one antler to be legal, a point being a tine that protrudes no less than 2.5cm from the main beam. I called in a very large bodied bull that sported the highest and widest rack I�ve seen outside a national park. We had a nice chat for about 10-15 minutes where he�d go into the brush, I�d call him back out and recount his tines and he�d become bored with what I had to say and leave. I�m not sure I could even count the number of times I counted up to 5 on that old boy, but so help me he would not make 6 no matter how hard I tried.

Another time a family friend was up mule deer hunting with my wife and I. It was her turn to shoot and we�d spotted a dandy wide racked alpine dweller. There we 3 were glassing this old boy feeding with a couple does perhaps 250yards away.

The deer were blissfully unaware of our presence as we lay behind a small greasewood brush trying to agree on whether the 4th point on his left antler made 2.5cm. The right was only a big 3 so there was no making legal minimum on that side.

The buck would turn one way and my friend and I would say, �Yes its legal�, then he�d turn another and we�d say, �No it doesn�t make it.�

This went on for some time and finally my wife turned to us and said, �Look if you guys can�t decide for sure then there�s no way I�m shooting. If one of you wants him go for it, but I�m out.�

As she always was the bright one of the trio we left the wide 3 point and his girlfriends alone to whatever they were up to and left.

Point restrictions and horn curl might sound like a hassle, but you actually get used to it pretty fast. There are a few animals taken accidentally every year, but overall it�s not that tough a restriction to abide by.

Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

And he is wrong and I can give plenty of examples... There was study published a number of years ago where punishments for game crimes were compared and those turning themselves in were treated worse than the runners.

There is absolutely no property protection afforded those turning themselves in... And I believe it is contrary to the best interests of AK law enforcement...
art

If you turn yourself in, I would not transport it without written
authorization. I know of to many cases where honest hunters were punished for disclosing all and assisting.

Where do you think the Troopers get all the planes & boats?
Hunt around the Park circus and Federal law enforcment areas and your views will change on how you are treated, IMHO. Lots of good law enforcement people but courts do not seem to take a honest mistake into consideration, with the willing help from the law.
It also seems that the F&G in AK can,t determine how old a 8 year legal Ram is. Based on the diferent personell at F&G doing the Ram sealing. Look at AK Outdoors hunting forum, under the hunting section, for examples of different F&G determing if it was legal or not.

Pressure on Rams in AK is intense and increasing each year!

Competition for limited Rams with limited access, has its problems! Generally the group with the most money will get the resource.

I got this information straight from a retired state trooper/wildlife division supervisor that I worked with a few years ago. Also got the same info at a sportsman show seminar given by a lawyer specializing in defending wildlife crimes. I've never tested the info so I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

A couple of things here.
In California, and other states you are required to carry a spotting scope of at least 15X, and pass an identiification test as to what makes a legal ram and what doesn't. With both of these in place, under sized/too young a sheep are pretty rare.
Another good trick, if youy get a chance to view the side of the head, is to note not just the horn mass, but if the horns curl below the jaw. And, of course, counting the annual rings. E

Utah has gone to any ram. Of course they hold an meeting and invite all tag holders to attend where they try and educate you as to what a mature ram is.

Here is my Desert Bighorn that is 10 years old and very heavily broomed back


Versus this 6 year old Rocky Mountain that shows almost no brooming.


So there is a big difference in the habitat, the genetics and the species of sheep. Rockies have bigger horns than Desert Bighorns. Desert Bighorns broom much more than the Rockies. And there is no shame in harvesting an old desert ram that has heavily broomed horns. The original gene pool of desert bighorns in Utahs San Rafael has a smaller very tight curls. vs the bighorns that have been imported back into the state to help re-establish sheep on the mountain.

When the Dept of Wildlife plugged my horns, they aso collected dna so they could test to see if my desert ram came from the original gene pool or the transplanted sheep. They have worked hard to try and keep the two species of sheep seperated from each other.

Actually, the guy killing the underage sheep is doing the herd a favor... The full curl rule was poorly thought out and anything but better for the sheep...

Killing the old mature leaders leaves the herd leaders as younger rams with far less experience; causes much younger rams to start rutting and literally damaging themselves far earlier than in a stable herd with a true Alpha ram.

The ram BW shot a few years ago had obvious signs of fighting hard at under 5 years. If there had been more mature rams around he would not have even noticed the rut. No way a young ram is going to take on a true mature ram.

Among the consequences of breeding at such a young age is reduced growth during that earlier age when growth is usually fastest... Which leads to smaller bodied and horned rams over time (statistics show that to be the case with Chugach rams now). Also, more sheep fail to survive the winter due to the breeding hardships. Some are also killed during the rut, especially when younger rams get involved with the head butting.

The herd has a lot invested in a full curl ram and killing one is a major thing for the herd control. A 3/4 curl is much cheaper for the herd to replace.
art

Argali 1-1/2 curl....heh.



Marco Polo 1-1/2+ curl.

Here's an Argali from the Alaska Range

Holy chitt.....NO question about those!!!.

This thread has been even more helpfull than i had hoped and thanks to Sitka for balanceing views with science.

In Alberta,sheep must be 4/5 curl or full curl depending on the particular unit you are hunting in.If you aren't sure,don't shoot,because people have been charged when a ram was less than 1/4" short.

Couple of bighorn shots I took last year, outside a park but in an area with no sheep season, though deer and elk seasons were open when I took the photo. You can count the annual rings on this ram (and see how hard that is to do accurately on some animals!)



In the photo below, an older ram has laid his horns on the ground to sleep, taking the weight off his neck. My wife felt sorry for him and would not let me wake him. When he did lift his head, he looked old and worn down with life, a little scruffy. The ram with his head up beside him is almost exactly full curl as defined by horn tip reaching the bridge of the nose. He has a longer tip just showing above his nose on the off side. If he straightens his head to a true side view, that will drop the horn on the off side and raise the one on the near side slightly. He is so close to full curl that I'd not put money on it either way, but I think that he is short a quarter inch or so.

A superb sheep guide, now passed on, told me how to accurately judge curl length in the field. He held up his first and second fingers curved like the bases of a ram's horns, and turned them till the knuckles were lined up. He said to watch the offside horn and when it exactly lines up with the near one just above the bases, at that moment the ram's head is 90 degrees from you. Where his horn tips are when his head is in that position relative to your eye is an accurate measure of curl length.

That's true if the ram is level with the observer. If the ram is above the observer, the tips will look longer, and if the ram is below, they will look shorter, as Art dramatically showed us once with photos of the same ram taken from high and low angles.

For the northern sheep, that might be. But not for desert sheep. That's because the harvest of even the older rams is very restricted. As a rule, it only allows 1-2% of the total herd to be harvested. Or about 1/3 of the 7-8 yr. old sheep.
That actually helps the youngest sheep to survive a bit better. E.

Okanagan
I looked for those photos to post again... Spent more time than it would have taken to redo them, and still didn't find them...

The fellow bragging about his "Clearly beyond full" 7/8 curl ram that happened to be 8... while he bragged about the 200+ yard shot... and then claimed he counted rings...
art

Some states have different curl minimums (Colorado is 1/2 curl).
In Alaska and British Columbia, full curl and/or age minimums may be private outfitter or government imposed, depending on area and/or outfitter.

When I took this full curl+ Stone ram in 1997, the outfitter's area was encouraged to take 8+ year old rams to keep their yearly quota of permits.

Yep, that was the thread. Brings back memories... !!! What a train wreck that was!

One more point on Alaska...almost all areas now require that horns be sealed...so you have to go to F&G no matter what. You either get your seal/plug on your legal sheep or a trip to the Troopers.

waterrat...holy crap!

Here's one past full, but tight, so not especially big.

JRaw
That is a perfect example of the angle enhancing the curl and it may not be full. Look through a round hole, like the center of a CD, and place the perfect round against the outside of your horns.

The circle is squashed fore and aft and is slightly below the axis of the center of the hole.

Next look at the "kink" in the curve, especially near the tip. that flare looks like it is rearward curl, but it is not.

The lack of anything resembling normal drop is the next clue. Those horns were shot from far enough in front and below the right side horn shows completely inside the curl and at the neck... Using a fairly wide lens up close allows the angle to work.

My money would be on that sheep NOT making full. Using the same angle trick I photographed a 3/4 curl Nabesna ram and made it look a full curl and a quarter.

Looking at the horn color, shape and size makes me guess that is also a Nabesna sheep.
art

Art, no attempt at camera tricks, just an effort to get a "the tip of which has grown through 360 degrees of a circle described by the outer surface of the horn, as viewed from the side" photo in the field as it was getting dark and the rain was starting to fall. Might not have gotten the perfect circle but it's pretty close, certainly not the full-blown, fore-aft ellipsis you often see in photos, just a wee-bit north-south elongated. Drop doesn't look great because it's not - not a big sheep.

Here's your fore-aft elongation, at the bottom of the page: AKF&G

Fish and Game said full when they plugged it, didn't even hesitate. So has everyone else that's seen it. Right side looks the same.

I agree on the flare making it seem like a kink, and that the sharp turn rearward is odd, but under the regs (360 degrees of a circle when viewed from the side) kink counts ... usually I'd defer to your expertise but as you are certainly aware there's a number of ways to judge full curl. Tony Russ has his "angle of degrees" [my name for his technique] method, some use the stick in front [lots of folks don't like this one], some just look for the tip to contact the base when viewing a circle from the side. Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with any of those methods, certainly don't want to start a full-curl war, there's enough of that on the other forum!

Again, I'm not putting it out there as big, old, huge, trophy or anything other than full. Gotta go make some burgers now!

Art, by no means is any offense intended...just including details for the masses; you may have seen the fracas a few months ago on the other forum when someone posted pics of their sheep before having it sealed...a really big oops!

OK.
What would happen to the shooter if he thought he had shot a full curl or one that just made minimum requirement and he gets it plugged and it turns out its a 1/2inch short or so?

It seems that with the restrictions on length it can/could get alittle tight (around the but hole) if you get to the sheep and its not what you thought? and has anybody had first hand experiance of this very situation?

Mr. UKdave;
Again, I'll give the BC perspective, as it's all I've experience with.

They place the caped head of the sheep into a jig which measures the amount of curl. If it makes it, the biologist will then plug it. If it doesn�t make the minimum requirement, it will not be plugged and we�re back to my first answer.

As an interesting side note, I was told when I took my one and only ram in to get inspected that they send the horn material taken from the drill bit into a provincial lab to get analyzed. It tells them the condition of the ram as well as verifying where it was shot, as they have a database of what minerals should appear in the horns of rams from different areas.

It prevents me from shooting a local ram where we have only LEH now and claiming I shot it 5 hours north where they have a general open season. I thought that was kind of cool anyway.

Hopefully that answered a bit of your query. All the best on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

So what your saying is that should it come up short, even by 1/2" your in for a hard time?

UKdave;
Yes, that's pretty much it.

One tends to do a lot of looking before shooting and tries to err on the long side of things.

The sheep I mentioned was past � curl by 35mm, which was considered lots to spare by the biologist that measured and plugged it.

Dwayne

While Trooper reports and witnessing carries weight, it is the DA who determines what you are charged with and how vigoriously he wants to press it, the jury (if any) who determines guilt, and the judge who determines the penalty.

F&G and Troopers will tell you you are better off fessing up and being co0pertive, than not.

Not having seen any study on it, i can't say...

The year I made an honest (tho uninformed) mistake and shot a sublegal bull (the second year of the antler restrictions down here) I lost the antlers, which I didn't care about, and kept the meat. The antlers were then used in a display for hunter education as an "almost but not quite" example of what to let walk.

The third year the honeymoon phase was over, and I'd have at least lost the meat as well, and likely been fined, but by then I was much better educated on antler configuration - in fact, the Protection Officer at the game-check station where I brought the moose through in mid-day, spent about 15 minutes going over this stuff, point by point, including some tips not found in the regulations book.

We had a young Texan who outfitted for Stone Sheep a few years back. He lost his hunting area after showing up at the game department with a short full curl ram. It was his 4th.
I hear some people are able to crank a ram up a bit by soaking the horns in water and sinching them up tight to dry. May just be an urban myth but I believe this is some truth to it.

If your 1/2" short you might as well be 10"s short as it makes no difference up here. While I was sealing my ram at the Anchorage F&G office, I got to talking with the trooper who was there at the time and he confessed to me that this year had the highest number of sub-legal rams since the inception of the sealing requirement. They have a few different methods of checking a ram for full curl but the one I found the strangest was the "tube" method where the person checking the ram looks through a piece of pvs pipe to see if the horn maes a complete circle. I did this prior to getting mine sealed and from what I could tell, it did not follow along the insided edges of the tube BUT, when viewed from the side it was a full curl. With that being said, the trooper checking my ram did the "tube" inspection and after a minute or so, determined it to be full curl. He had also said it was a full curl before he did the "tube" inspection, so either way it was good.

As for the full curl regulation, I have to side with Art on this one, 7/8 curl would be a much better rule to go by, then we don't have so many full curl rams taken out of the herds and those that are hunting them and see that they are "close" to full curl don't have to worry that maybe it's a 1/2" short from full curl. This was my first ram to be sealed and I have to say that I don't care for them drilling holes in my sheep horns but I guess if it's neccessary for sheep management, then I can live with it.

It is not needed for management... It is "needed" for enforcement...

I don't believe the plug is needed for enforcement as they bagged up the shavings that came from my ram's horns like they were going to be tested.

Now I do however, believe that the sealing program is being used for enforcement. Lord knows how many sublegal rams have been taken over the years without anyone knowing about it other than the shooter prior to the sealing program.

My biggest gripe with the sealing program is that if you take a ram to several different offices to get sealed, you will get a different answer from each person that looks at it, have heard numerous horror stories about this over the last few years.

I have seen some classic calls. Two people counting differences of two years and different counts for each horn on the same sheep...

And I do not think it is the sheeps' fault...

Sure puts "ground shrinkage" into a differant light given what could happen and after all the hard work!!

A couple years back a shot a Roe Buck by mistake (out of season it had 1 bollock and no antlers or pedicules or anything),I took it to the game dealers and told them what had happened,their reply...oh well never mind �1.40lb ok!!!

In Alberta,people have been charged,and the horns seized because the horns were less than 1/4" short.You get a fine,and a hunting suspension,both of which vary with the circumstances.The bottom line is that if you aren't 100% sure that the ram is legal,don't shoot.

Would anyone care to "label" some of the photos to show annual rings? It appears to be more difficult than you would think.

Mark

F&G bioligist in AK cannot agree on how old a ram is when you take it in to be sealed. My rule is big or don,t shoot has to
pass muster with all F&G when its sealed. If you are wrong you could loose all you came hunting with. Boat, plane, truck etc!
If you have doubts don,t shoot!

Lots of old Dall rams never reach full curl but are legal, over 8 years old.

AkMtnHntr:
Have to agree with you guys on this one for sure. Never could understand the "logic" of only harvesting full curl rams. To do so, IMO, means the smarter, older rams aren't around to show the younger ones the best feeding & bedding areas, the best escape routes, etc. Continuance of the gene pool should be the main priority I should think. BTW, the guy I occasionally assistant guided for years ago never took more than about 1 ram off of a given mountain in a season. His small attempt at maintaining the gene pool in his area.
I'm not a biologist but.....
Bear in Fairbanks

Pic of a legal AK Ram thats not full curl well over 8 yrs old.

Like sheep hunting....See my post "Real Sheep Hunting" today in the General Big Game Forum

Here's a giant ram some friends and I found dead in October here in Montana....evidently he was hit by another hunter and not recovered...8 years old, 41" X 17", 199 B&C. We turned it in the FWP, who packed it out the next day.

MarlinMark-

This pic is about as good as it gets for counting rings.

What a grand old Roman-nosed ram. Size and character. A trophy of a lifetime nearly lost. I'm glad you found him.

In AK we can keep those...