Anyone have a ranch that has decent hunting for a trespass
fee?More concerned with lower pressure than B&C

Jeff, there is a great deal of fine Antelope hunting on public land, of which we have a lot. I have lived in WY 10 years and taken 14 Antelope all but three under 200 yards none over 352. All but two within 2 miles of my house and within 10 miles from the town of Pinedale and all on public land. We are on the primary migration route and see 1000s of lopes every hunting season.
A buck over 14" is rare due to our tough climate. In short you don't need a guide or to pay a trespass fee. Here's a couple of pics: my 14" 08' buck (only drew a doe in 09') taken from a herd of about 75 at 325 yards with a BOSS equiped M 70 in 270 WCF taken opening morning. The second is my buddy's 14.75" with nice cutters, taken in 09' at 130 yards with a Savage 99 EG in 300 Savage. He was taken about a week into the season. Areas 87,88,88 & 90 offer great opportunities without getting into the mythical 600 yard shot.
Good hunting!

Nice to see another pic of an old Savage doing it's job. Congrats!

Nice to see a couple of "old guys" getting it done....

I would love to get out there and shoot a lope before I get too old....

Looks like you had fun...

Nice thing about Lope, is that as long as you can walk you can hunt. We both have bad knees, bad backs, can't see and other problems associated with being Medicare members.
Our typical hunt methods are ambush or spot and stalk (hilly areas where we hunt). A 99 works fine this is a victim of an 08' cull license (81 yards) and this year I put down a wounded (by another hunter) doe at 300+ with the same 99R 300 Savage (130 TSX @2800). A bunch of holdover and hold into the wind.

For rancher/landowner access you can call any of the field offices of the WDFG and they will email you one for the area you want to hunt. I called the Sheridan office for info on the Sheridan Region and they emailed me the list.
Check the back of the Non-Res Hunting info book and it gives you the office for the units you want to check.

Once I got the list, I called the bio for the area and asked him if he could narrow it down to some of the better names which he did. I then called about 4 of the ranchers and settled on one that limited the amount of hunters he allowed on, had a decent price and plenty of land. I hunted his place back in October for the 1 clear day I had between snow storms and killed my best buck. I think I attached a pic, never sure if it works or not.

So, just give them a call they are most helpful, if you want the Sheridan region PM me your email and be happy to give you the list I have.
Good luck!
Frank

IMG_0443.JPG

Many thanks Frank
PM sent

It seems like a waste of money to pay for a Prairie Goat. For those of us who live in Wyoming its all about Public Lands. Check out your area maps. They will show how much Public Lands is in each area. It might be wise to choose a flat shooting rifle with a good 6X power scope. Sight you rifle for a 250 Yd. Zero. The trick is taking care of the meat once it is down, The "Goat" season is often during the very warm part of the year in Wyoming. I like to cool them as fast as possible after the kill. This is why many folks think the meat is bad, it isn't bad meat it's just poor handling after the kill. Good luck.

I agree - if I was a local I may not pay to access private. But for a non-res trying to make sure that they aren't trespassing and knowing ahead of time that after driving 1140 miles and already spending $700-$800 on a trip its just nice to know you have a place to hunt. And it seems anyway the easy to draw units are mostly private, and the last thing I want to do is trespass, I try real hard not to do that. And really, the fellow whos place I hunted this year just is a all around nice guy that sure helped- he did more that just take my money and point towards the nearest open gate. He showed me around and told me places to look for the better goats, if not for the bad weather there were much bigger bucks but I just couldn't get to them.

Don't forget that WY F&G has a lots of Hunter Management Areas and Walk-In Areas that will allow you to hunt on private land. Some of these are in pretty easy to draw units as well.

Locating BLM land isn't any special magic trick. I can't understand why so many people believe that it's some kind of secret information that only the "locals" know. And I can't see paying for access to private land either when BLM maps are readily available.

http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/resources/public_room/gis/datagis/state/huntareas.html

I assume you can read a topo and BLM map (need both) and use a GPS with The Universal Transverse Mercator coordinate system ?
If so you can avoid any danger of trespass.

The proplem with the Non-Residents quick check book is that it closes gates. Areas that were once open to everyone due to over population of "goats" are now closed. The ranchers now close the gates to residents who pay taxes in the state. They have found by selling to rich out of staters a better deal. So when one fellow wins other folks are shut out. The check book has changed our way life. Wyoming resident tax payer.

Umm, can't help but say that just kinda sounds whiny...That same check book you are talkin bad about helps that rancher pay his taxes by bringing him revenue....So since you don't want to help him pay taxes and an out of state hunter does you have become the looser, am I hearing that correct??? So the cheap skates who want to hunt Private land are shut out, while the hunter that wants to help the rancher pay his land tax is let in??? Sounds like simple business sense

How nice of you to help "pay his land tax." That funny [bleep] right there..

I'm not paying anybody anything first off Greenhorn...

But secondly do landowners not pay taxes in WY?

JeffP:
If one can see, or bring along a friend with good vision, he should have no issues harvesting a public land pronghorn in Wyoming. If one does not want to rough it, drive the BMW. They have more pronghorn there than we have jackrabbits and/or coyotes here in Oregon. Wyoming also has a sh-tload of public land (48% of the state's land area). If one wants to avoid hunting pressure, don't tell anyone and sneak out on a weekday.

Landowners pay taxes everywhere. Hunters don't pay landowners trespass fees for taxes, they pay it so landowners will exclude others from hunting their property.

Hell, if you live in Texas there is very little public land. and what there is of it the deer hunting is only so so - and we're the second largest state in the union. unless your family has land, leases are a fact of life for most deer hunting. hunting lease income does help a lot of landowners whether they're farmers/ranchers are not offset the cost of keeping their property. but this post has my ears perked up to go to Wyoming after pronghorns!

You don't understand how this works. No Ranch in Wyoming has enough private land to hunt on. All Ranches depend on leased Public Lands. They pay little or nothing to use and abuse Public Lands that belong to all of us. We all pay their taxes. They buy up the private access to Public Lands and then Land lock or lands. They then charge Tesspass fees to cross their land to get to our Public Lands. You can call it whinning if you like, but its down right criminal. Then they have folks like you that support this hunting Ban with your check book and call it right. You have a very urban outlook, and no you don't see a problem. In time someone else will offer this guy more money and you will be out, happens all the time. It is becoming more like Europe only the rich can hunt the Kings game.

Green Horn you said it all. How true. Thx

Thankfully Wyoming isn't like Texas. Boy.. that would SUCK.

10 years ago in Wyoming I paid $100 to hunt a private ranch, that had about 40% BLM inside it's boundary - I saw a few other "trophy hunters" who had paid their fee too. Although there was a lot of goats there, there were just as many elsewhere. I shot a great goat another place (actually on BLM land) where nobody else was hunting.

Wyomings a damn big place and sometimes you transplants just can't grasp the largeness of it. The number of "ranches that depend on public land" is pretty small.
The so called quick check book of the nonresidents doesn't have near as much to do with the limited access to my land as the [bleep] locals that think they're doing me a favor by driving all over my place tearing the hell out of the grass and fences, do.
Matter of fact I haven't accepted anything more than the landownder coupon from hunters resident or not for anything from antelope to elk in several years.
So called outfitters offering mega bucks for leases close more private land access than anything. That and people coming in from out of state and buying a place just to exploit the weakness in the Landowner license regulations.
Tell the truth I'ld rather have a nonresident come hunt. First off they are generally polite in asking permission, second after they go home its not uncommon to get christmas cards or phone calls during the year. Contrast that with the typical rappy out of town that almost demands to be let on the place, can't even offer to buy a cup of coffee in town after the season, and most likely won't be seen again until the early morning hours of the first day when he's banging on the door thinking we're best friends.

You sound like one of those California folks who has just bought some land in Wyoming. You know damn well leases on
Public land are a rip off. You also know that you draw a big
stack of dollars every year for game damage. You draw dollars for predator damage. You cuss locals but its our permit fees that pay for all the money you well fare cowboys get. And you know very well you could not operate with out public lands. You also know posting Public Lands is illegal but you do it.
And by the way its about time you start paying your fair share of taxes. Don't poor mouth me oil and gas leases pipeline right aways wind mills all public expense. Hope you feel good when you wad those nonresdent checks in your pockets. I have been here 70 years from the Big Horn Country so don't BS me. I know who you are and I know of your KIND operation. You only post on these hunting forms to drum up hunters. I also know that you are from out of state.

Yes. Green Horn this is a trend here in Wyoming. We used have solid old ranch families. They would never take anything from anyone and respected their neighbors. They would not beg for a cup of coffee but would offer you one. This new out of state money mostly tax dodgers from big backers will take your money and leave you flat. Check these guys real close before you pay them. Charging people to hunt on Public Land is real bad, but they do it.

You don't know [bleep] from shinola about me or much of anything else. I don't run on federal leases. I do have one state section that I pay the lease on, plus the maintance of the thing. It's publicly accessable so dick heads such as your self can defowl the thing without anymore expenditure than the gas and beer it took you to get there.The rest of the 4000+ acres are deeded, and you might be surprised at how much taxes I pay both federal and state.
Now as to this bullshit about me being here to drum up business that's just false crap. Matter of fact I've turned away more requests to hunt here than I've accepted and any of those I accepted have not been asked one thing of not one thin dime. Pm Macrabbit , he's been here for a visit. I've also bent over backwards helping folks find places to hunt without expense to them thru pm's and emails sent here on this board.
I've also requested the game and fish to take my name off of the landowner list as I simply don't have the land nor animals to fill the requests and calls it brings.
As to the damage payments, What are you smokin? I've never recieved damage payments, regardlesss of the over 200 head of elk that really like the taste of alfalfa, and we won't get into what browsers such as deer and antelope can do to a field of wheat in the winter. So once again you don't know your head from your [bleep] , we cant' help you sort it out either cuz the stinch is the same from either end.
As to your slanderous crap about California. Go [bleep] yourself implant. I'm third generation here and a damn site closer to retirement than graduation.

Good story, but like I said I know you. I know people who know you. You are not the little nice guy you claim to be. And you never took a dime from the state. You Damn well your name is on the records.

Give it up dickhead you've already established yourself to the world as a liar that's been caught.
If you knew me then you wouldn't be going on with the lies that you are trying to put out here. You know neither me, my name nor anybody that does.
On the records? Absolutley I've turned in landowner coupons, but have never ever ever applied for OR recieved damage payments. But you'll not find out who I am that easy.Nice try tho.
Now crawl back to your little socialist hole.

Really?

If it's [bleep] easy and cheap why isn't everybody taking advantage of it?

I know certain ranchers abuse their leases but there's also alot who give a chit about the land and try to manage it properly.


You sound like a crybaby [bleep].

Its too early for beer and popcorn....but I have the day off....so WTH..

I'll go put a gather on some..

be right back!!!


Ingwe

cage fight!

Isn't Wyoming part of America, where private property owners have the right to let whomever they want on their property for whatever reason they want? And to exclude on the same grounds? Why don't you buy your own ranch to hunt on?

You are a true Welfare Cowboy. I told one of your hunting clients to use Public Lands. It scared the hell of you. You
are selling the game that belongs to the people of Wyoming
and you know it.
There were no "Goats" to speak of in the 1940 and 50s here in Wyoming. It was not the ranchers or flat land farmers that brought them back. In fact they fought the rentroduction of
these animals tooth and nail. After they were allowed to be paid for every animal taken from their lands and then pay them for the grass they ate. Even though these migratory animals may spend their lives on Public Lands. The land owners got the checks and still do. Plus, folks like you then sell the game to the highest bidder. Not a bad deal for you is it?
The Wyoming Game & Fish Dept. is not supported by the General fund. Those terrible resident hunters pay for it thru their fees to the state. The intrduction of game and its management
is paid for by these hunters and fisherman. Yes, you can call
me and others all kinds of names and "Bully" eneryone who points out your actions. But it is true, you are selling our
Game plain and simple. Your personal attacks are too nasty for posting on this forum. This will be my last post on this subject. I would ask forum members to contact their representives to complain about the "Land Locking" in Wyoming. The giant private hunting plantations owned by the people but only open to the Elite.
Red Cloud

Red Cloud you're are pitiful little bastard that is so burned up with jealousy and hate inside that you make blatantly false statements about people that cannot even be justified or rationalized against the truth.
Do you comport yourself this way in public or does the annonymity of the keyboard make you what you seem to be?
As I said before I don't charge anybody to hunt. With the exception of the occasional "outfitter" that comes around, and they generally leave because they don't want to pay 1/3 of the price they're getting for the hunt to me for a trespass fee.
There's no shortage of folks that have pm'ld me on this board asking about hunts and available licenses in this area, and my stock and trade answer is don't do it. The left over license thing is the biggest scam the game and fish pulls on people. There's a reason those licenses are leftover in most places, either there's nothing there to hunt or there's no place to hunt.
You can lecture me all you want about license fees and the funding of the game and fish.... I've got on my dresser at this very moment an antelope, deer and 2 elk licenses that weren't filled this year. I also have the lifetime conservation stamp and bird and fishing license.
You would be astonished at what the actual cost to private landowners of the " states" wildlife is. Take for instance this transplanted elk herd ,the game and fish chooses to mis manage. The cost to me in fencing materials alone close to 300 dollars a year,just in one 800 acre pasture, and that doesn't include the time it takes to put those fences back up, and the time it takes myself and the neighbors to sort cattle back out every few days. You wouldn't know dosquat about the 40 acres of alfalfa those elk ate flat this year after the rains came and the possibility of a second cutting camem,you've never seen it and never will. You probably don't even know how much trace mineral salt or feed supplement tubs a herd of elk can demolish over night. Let alone the haystacks they can damage.
You've also likely never seen the bald spots in wheat strips come spring time where the antelope and deer have pawed and grazed what was a fine stand of wheat in the fall into a peice of blow sand by spring.
But that's alright you go ahead making the kind of accusations you do, most people are smart enough to realize who and what you are.

I'll answer your questions.. yes, yes, and I don't need one.

Somebody doesn't need to pay a trespass fee to have a great Wyoming antelope hunt. Those who pay trespass fees are not doing it to help a landowner out, it's to exclude other hunters from hunting where they are.

..just the facts, although I know they are confusing to some

On your first trip out, it might be wise to go with the reduced price doe/fawn licenses. Those licneses cost so little , and the chances of blindly stumbling into cheap/free hunting on private land is way better than someone who's only interested in a trophy. This will also give you an opportunity to size the area up as to whether or not you're interested in returning.
I would also advise you to go in the last week of the season, most of the rappy's from town have mostly dissappeared, the landowners family and friends have all filled out and left, there's less crowding on both private and government lands and the experience is likely to be more rewwarding.

One comment on this one...



Hey Sam, I wish the average guy was allowed to take advantage of the BLM leases...trouble is, the public is not allowed to. By regulation you HAVE to own and graze livestock on federal leases. Plus, the way the leases work, they never come up for competitive bid to the public either. The leasee has to give up their federal leases before it comes open. Then when it does, if you dont own livestock, you're not eligible.

Believe me, I wish that the welfare public lands grazing system would come to an end. Nothing would make me more happy than for conservation groups like the RMEF, MDF, WSF, etc. to be able to compete for federal grazing leases. The problem is, the system is broken, federal grazing fees are based on a completely out of date and ridiculous federal system that was developed in the 1960's. The grazing fees are the same NOW ($1.35/aum) as they were in the 1960's...and let me tell you thats a g-damn joke, at best.

Its always amusing to me that the typical public lands welfare rancher gets all worked up like they arent on the take from the taxpayer. The guys that I actually feel bad for are the ranchers that DONT have federal leases...they're not competing in a fair market at all. They have to pay several times the amount to lease similar private land, and then have to compete with and sell their cattle for the SAME price. How is that a "fair market"? One guy gets subsidized grazing while the other guy pays fair market value?

Want things to be "fair market" open up all federal leases to the highest bidder...period.

You'd hear howling from the welfare ranching crowd like never before...

That said, if a landowner wishes to lease or charge trespass fees to hunt deeded land, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with charging trespass fees to access land locked public land. IMO, anyone that pays or charges should be restricted to using private land only. The public land should be off-limits to both the paying hunter and the holder of the federal lease if any money changes hands.

I don't have any federal leases, but I do know some that do, and have looked at buying ranches that did. On the surface yubecha them things look like they're way to cheap. But get into the details, like the aum's allowed, the cost to the leasee of the water etc, and just the amount of acres an outfit has to cover and the private leases start to look cheap. Then there's always the threat from some "conservation" group turning in for overgrazing etc. I know of one fella that got jerked by the chain because he was accused of overgrazing an allotment in the highcountry, well after a long court fight and his contention that he hadn't even turned out on that piece yet, he was able to provide the entire court with transportation to the allotment and lo and behold not a cow to be seen, but the meadows were smothered in elk.....
He now farms alflalfa down in the valley and doesn't care to look back.
Your absolutely right about the ag community not being able to compete in a fair market tho. We got prices for calves this past fall we hadn't got since the late 80's , unfortunately our expenses are fully Y2k compatable. Grain prices now are the same dollar amount as the 1960's. This economy keeps up and there won't be any more wondering about hunters for the hungry programs, hunters will be back to eating what they kill so they can keep food on the table.

Ranch13,

If federal leases werent a good deal...you'd think they would be given up on a regular basis by the leasee's. Not the case though...I wonder why?

Theres not a doubt one that federal leases are a good deal for those that have them. Increases their property value, cheaper than dirt for grazing rights, and of course some even charge trespass fees through small tracts of deeded to reach MY landlocked federal land.

Just some of the "good deals" allowed through the federal lands welfare ranching program.

Also, not everyone is Y2K compatable on expenses...just ask any rancher that leases federal lands how much more they're paying an AUM now than they did in the 1980's. If they tell you its more NOW they're lying ba$tards.

Not sure why ranchers without federal leases would stick up for those that do...mind-boggling.

Buzz if those guys let their federal leases go then what would they do? They could sell the cows and all the equipment, but the bank is going to take a chunk out of that, and the IRS is going to want their cut in Capitol gains tax. So after the cows are sold then what? The only thing left to make a living is either sell the deeded to some outofstate moneyed intrest, and hope to be able to lease it back , or just leave it and go to town and turn into someone like..... Either way the here comes the IRS with their hand out again...
Like I said you need to know the ins and outs of the whole deal before you can pass judgement , the lease paid to the BLM is cheap, but the expense that goes with it is high.I just paid 245 per gallon to have my bulk tanks filled, that's with the ag tax gone. With this global warming going on we're using about 10 gallons per day to feed. I'ld imagine that's a pitance compared to what some guy around Opal Pinedale or Ten Sleep is paying.
Yes we in ag need to stick together, its a matter of principle I suppose. Especially when it comes to helping get a bit of truth into false information being spread by those that don't know the first thing about the business they're talking about.
You guys that think it was bad when gas hit 5$, just wait till the Amercican Farmer is gone, wait until some off shore conglomarate controls the food price in this country.

Ranch13,

My point is simply that the leasees of federal grazing alotments have not a single thing to complain about. There isnt cheaper grazing found anywhere, or they'd be letting their leases go, and that is pure fact.

For the record, I do know a thing or two about federal and state leases. I realize that on SOME leases the responsibility of water, fencing, etc. is up to the leasee. Not always the case though, leases vary greatly depending on location regarding who's responsible for what. The thing that doesnt change is the price paid per AUM, and thats the fleecing of Americas public lands.

I'm sure that since you know so much about federal leases that you're well aware over 70% of them are in some sort of over-grazed condition according to the BLM? You likely also know that 90% of riparian areas on federal lands are in poor condition and not functioning properly according to the BLM?

Good stewards??? Maybe 30% are, according to BLM documentation.

I'm not blaming the poor rancher totally, the BLM/FS have a share in the blame on the condition of MY public lands. They are equally responsible for sound management.

Its a total sham anyway you look at it from the viewpoint of the average American taxpayer. We subisidize an industry with our tax dollars...and what we get in return is OUR federal lands being over-grazed and in poor condition. For an encore from the ranching community, we get locked out of OUR public lands and denied access to enjoy our over-grazed public lands.

What a deal!

I wanted to stay out of this, but just can't stand it any longer. I'm pissed!

Grazed public lands across the entire west are in far better condition now days than they were in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. They also support way more wildlife than in the old days. In those days a deer, elk, sheep, or pronghorn sighting often made the paper, and sheep and cattle came home in July or August on their own, because there was nothing left to eat.

On the surface, federal grazing alloments might seem like a screaming deal, but I see very few family ranchers, other than cooperate folks that made their money elswhere, living the high life or wintering in Bimini. The average rancher works his ass off and gets maybe a 2 or 3% return on his efforts if he's lucky. Most would be well ahead to sell to developers and get the hell out.

Stocking rates, schedules, and durations are all dictated on public land allotments, and often do not come close to meshing with ranch demands or mother nature's schedules. Ranchers also expend funds to maintain fences, roads, and water sources as well as haul and round up expenses for their cattle on their allotments. They often are not allowed to address toxic plant or weed issues. Try rounding up cattle in a 200 square mile pasture some time, and see how many full days of wages and how much horse flesh one needs to accomplish that.

Should a small wildfire occur, they may lose access to thousands of acres while a small patch is allowed to heal for two full growing seasons. Toss in some T&E species, wolves, bears, salmon, or wild horses, and managment can become even more of a nightmare.

Yes the simple direct cost seems like a good deal, but indirect costs often make allotments more expensive than private leases. In private arrangements, one can contact for lbs of gain on their animals, dictate season of use, and not have to deal with all the maintainence issues.

I for one am glad that livestock are out there. We've seen instances here in Oregon (Bridge Creek winter range) where livestock were removed from state owned land to reserve grass for elk. Inside of 3 years, elk moved to the surrounding heavily grazed private holdings. Cattle were brought back at 2 times the previous numbers, and the elk returned at 2 times their previous numbers. If you want citations, let me know and I'll furnish them. Deer, elk, and pronghorn all prefer to graze where old growth has been cleaned off by grazing or fire, and they all have easy access to new herbage. Managed grazing can also be used to stimulate the growth of palatable shrubs. With early spring use, cattle will focus on competing grasses and that leaves more moisture for the shrubs needed to elevate wildlife diet quality later in the winter.

Ungrazed grasses in our environment are about 3 to 5% crude protein by late summer. That level will not sustain any herbivore that I know of. If cattle can take off the tough stems when herbage is still green, a tussock starts new growth and cures at 7 to 9% crude protein when soil moisture runs out. Elk, deer, bighorn, and pronghorn can do quite well on that cured regrowth and actually chunk up before the coming winter.

My office windows look out over about a 1000 square mile basin that floods each spring to promote hay growth and harvest. It's all deeded land. The basin chunks up literally millions of water fowl during spring migrations too. We also have a huge flooded and largely ungrazed wildlife refuge to the south. Make a guess as to where all the birds (duck, geese, cranes etc) forage each spring. It's almost entirely on deeded property.

Review many of the articles that come from the Starkey Experimental Forest, and one will find that in a given year, as soon as cattle move out, elk will move in to work the more nutritious herbage.

Ranchers have screwed this country up so much in the last 50 years, that the enviro's flock out here to get away from things and enjoy nature every year. If it's that fuc-ed up, why are they spending all their vacation time here and building their cabins. My definition of an enviro is someone that built their cabin in the woods last year. Now they can't stand the thought that someone might build a little higher on the hill.

I for one am glad that ranchers are out there. We'd have far fewer wildlife without them. It's true that some deeded land owners are paid for crop damages. But put 200 elk or pronghorn on a 1/2 section pivot in late summer and a whole third or fourth cutting of valuable alfala can disappear. It costs a sh-tload of money to install and run pivots, and big game benefit greatly from their presence. I personally know ranchers here in eastern Oregon that pull from their stacks to feed deer, elk, pronghorn, and sheep during tough times, and they've never requested or gotten a dime. Ask for permission and most will grant it. Break down in the boonies, and they'll haul you out and refuse payment. Let's keep those ranchers here, be nice to them, and one can likely gain access to their properties and the lands beyond. Sorry for the rant. I'll shut up and go elsewhere,

I can't speak for WY but in MT a very well funded, private group made an offer on the grazing association(private and lease land) where my dad has beening running cows for the past 20 years. Their goal is to gradually phase out ranching on that particular chunk of land.

Guess what, they don't own any cattle and I'm pretty sure they don't really care for hunting. And this BLM/CMR ground we are talking about. The same BLM/CMR land that has highly regulated grazing(a good thing). Don't worry, PLENTY of grass out there, deer and elk certainly aren't starving and might even hit the stock tanks and dams once in awhile.

A neighboring rancher doesn't even run cattle on a huge piece of it just because it's a pain in the ass gathering that area. Pretty sure he's still paying the lease(deep pockets so they can afford it).

And I'm also pretty damn sure the cost to lease has increased since once or twice since 1960.

Sure there are those that abuse the system but please don't throw the 'welfare rancher' comments out there.

And I would cagefight your dumbass over that one if you ran your mouth like that around me. Not real keen on people talking chit about my family's way of life.

(This is why I stay away from the wolf threads, ignornat [bleep] with big mouths really get under my skin)


And I'm out of here also.
Not worth getting worked up over some crap a chick types on the internet.

SamOlson:

I completley disagree. It's definitely worth getting worked up about. The wealth of public lands is the reason I hauled my butt out here from the east in 1974.

It would take ton of $$$ and 4 months of vacation time a year for me to live in Texas. Texans are indeed fine people, but I have way more freedom here than they do down there. Winter well, 1Minute

I needed a timeout...(grin)


You're right, our public lands(and any land) should be treasured and looked after with respect.
Something my old man taught my brother and I years ago.

Peaceout.


(I'm still ready for that cage fight though!)

Sam,

For your reading enjoyment...you are correct, current AUM price on federal leases is actually 13 cents an AUM higher now than in 1966.

Staggering increase...

Do you suppose the costs of administration of federal leases has increased or decreased since 1966? Federal wages stayed the same? Cost of vehicles stayed the same?

Subsidized grazing=welfare. No way around it, look up the definition of a subsidy, and I'd say it to your face. No disrespect, just the definition of a subsidy.


BLM and Forest Service Announce
2007 Federal Grazing Fee

The Federal grazing fee for Western public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service will be $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM) in 2007, down from $1.56 in 2006. The newly adjusted fee, determined by a congressional formula and effective on March 1, applies to nearly 18,000 grazing permits and leases administered by the BLM and more than 8,000 permits administered by the Forest Service.

The formula used for calculating the grazing fee, established by Congress in the 1978 Public Rangelands Improvement Act, has continued under a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986. Under that order, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per AUM, and any increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year's level. An Animal Unit Month is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.

The annually adjusted grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states.The figure is then adjusted according to three factors - current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production. Based on this formula, the 2007 fee declined primarily because of an increase in production prices.

The $1.35 per AUM grazing fee applies to 16 Western states on public lands administered by the BLM and the Forest Service. The states are Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming. The Forest Service applies different grazing fees to national grasslands and to lands under its management in the Eastern and Midwestern states and parts of Texas. The national grassland fee will be $1.37 per AUM, down from $1.73 in 2006, and will also take effect March 1. The fee for the Eastern and Midwestern states and parts of Texas will be out later this month.

The BLM manages more land - 258 million surface acres - than any other Federal agency. Most of this public land is located in 12 Western States, including Alaska. The Bureau, with a budget of about $1.8 billion, also administers 700 million acres of sub-surface mineral estate throughout the nation. The BLM's multiple-use mission is to sustain the health and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations. The Bureau accomplishes this by managing such activities as outdoor recreation, livestock grazing, mineral development, and energy production, and by conserving natural, historical, and cultural resources on the public lands.

The Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, manages 193 million acres of Federal lands in 44 states, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands.

1-minute,

I agree with some of your post. No question that duration, timing, and intensity of grazing can have be a positive for the land, the wildlife, and the rancher. I've seen some extremely well managed federal, state, and private lands...really a model for how things COULD work.

However, the reality on the many thousands acres of BLM, FS, BIA, State, etc. land I've personally inventoried, along with a fair amount of private land as well, in WY, MT, ID, CO, NV, AZ, N. Dakota, and S. Dakota, that isnt whats going on.

The land is still in a declining or over-grazed condition on way more than half of it. It likely is an improvement over 50 years ago...but one would hope to hell it would be better. Saying that 50 years ago it was grazed to dirt compared to now we leave SOME grass still doesnt mean anything is being managed properly, or that the land/system is healhty. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken $hit.

It obvious to me that you do know more than a fair bit about the situation, but I dont think its prudent to live in denial that the federal grazing system is not still in big trouble as a whole. Its also unfair to say that no problems exist in regards to the health of the federal grazing leases, in particular riparian areas.

As to things like T&E, are you implying that federal regulations like those should be ignored because it may change how or when a block of federal property is grazed? Are you also implying there is no way to mediate such issues?

I also disagree with you that a majority of ranchers that lease federal lands will allow you to hunt or access land locked federal lands. I can assure you, that in MT, ID, and WY you will be denied access 90% of the time. It very well could be different in Oregon...one of the few Western States I've never spent much time in.

My contention is that despite some of the things you listed, there is no question that grazing on federal lands is a highly subsidized endeavor that is also out-of-date and in need of a massive over-haul.

I do appreciate a fair dialogue on the federal lands issues.

I'm just curious but if $1.35 is say the average going rate on BLM etc then what is the average going rate on private land. And yeah I realize there's a lot of variables to the question but am just curious about the ballpark diff?

(and I don't have a perro in this fight by the way)

Thx
Dober

Depends...on similar land types and AUM's, $8-$12 an AUM on private.

Not unusual for higher AUM prices on private either...I think it would be rare to find any under $8.

Thx Buzz, was just being my normal curious George self.

Dober

Buzz, just what are your qualifications to rate the condition of grazing lands?
I'm sure that you've taken into account in your grazing land assessment the affect of the severe drought that has been in this part of the country for the last 12 years. Yes it rained some last year, but theres several years of shortages to make up.
The BLM sets the stocking rate , NOT the rancher. The BLM sets the length of the grazing season, and NOT the rancher.
Until you've actually had to set down and make ends meet from a calf check or sale of grain, you can't possibly even begin to understand the finances of it.
You go on about 1960's grazing rates, yet you gloss clear over 1960's prices paid for cattle. And ignore the 2009 price of production.
Can you tell us how many lbs of forage a 1200 lb momma cow needs this time of the year?

Your price guess is about 15 years old there bub. Private leases are also 90% of the time on grass land that has a stocking rate of 1/3 or less the acres per cow it takes on the bulk of blm and forest service. The weaning weights of calves coming off cows in private grazing is about1/3 heavier than public lands cattle. That makes an awful lot of difference in the value of the lease right there. Then you have to take into account various private leases, the leasee has to do nothing but turn the cattle out and go get them in the fall on many of them. There isn't a publicland lease that way anywhere.

Mark,

The average per AUM will also vary from state to state...a quick internet search will likely tell you what you want to know. For example, S. Dakota average AUM price on private ranged from $20-$24/AUM.

I think that for similar private land conditions and similar obligations in regards to fencing, etc. (comparing to BLM) that $8-$12 would be fair.

Ranch13, I didnt gloss over anything, and for the record, go read what I wrote. I put half the blame on the BLM for the poor condition of 70% of their federal land. However, that does not excuse poor stewardship on the ranchers part that obviously happens on federal leases.

My qualifications on rating the condition of grazing lands is direct work with the BLM's own risk rating system for riparian and non-riparian lands. Its a comprehensive assessment of over 120 variables, species presence, amount of utilization of and identification of grasses, forbs, and shrubs down to a "presence" level. On riparian variables things like pfankuch bank stability, Rosgen stream classification system, deep binding root mass, etc. etc. etc. Also fairly well versed in the presence/abundance of macro-invertebrates and how they translate to water quality and ecosystem health. TMDL collection techniques and how they translate to water temperature, turbidity, oxygen content, etc. Understanding of channel migration using permanent surveying techniques via total station. Taking said data and comparing various stream reaches using GIS for cut and fill analysis...comparing healthy (stable) VS unhealthy (unstable) banks.

I've personally inventoried thousands of acres collecting the above data in several states on a variety of land ownerships.

I've used the data to aid in drafting short and long term management plans to address and/or help to recover land that is no longer functioning properly or in a state of decline. I've done this for both Federal and Private lands.

I also have a degree in resource management.

But, really, you dont need much more than common sense to recongnize if a given unit of land is in decline, improving, or staying the same. Ever looked at fenceline contrasts? Why the land on one side of a fence looks vastly different than the other side? Ever looked at historic VS current photos of the same area of land and noted the differences between then and now? Thats what the risk rating system proves via an unbiased standardized system.

Ranch13 and Mark...dated information from 2007, check out the AUM average price. Also a good article to note the differences in AUM based on lots of variables.

I still contend my numbers are NOT out-of-line...you be the judge. Heres a link to the average prices per AUM on private land in most of the western states. Ranged from a low of $8/AUM in Arizona to a high of $24/AUM in Nebraska. Wyoming came in at $15/AUM and Montana at $16/AUM. If the link doesnt work, just cut and paste it.


http://beefmagazine.com/images/GrazingTable%5b1%5d.pdf



Lingering drought and strong cattle prices combined to push private grazing rates up 4.5% this year to $13.80/animal unit month (AUM) across the Western U.S. This year's rise follows a modest 0.8% gain last year, according to the latest USDA January Cattle Survey.

Given the overall strength of the cattle economy, pasture rates would have likely risen higher except for the persistent drought, writes Michael Fritz in the upcoming March issue of BEEF magazine. Fritz is owner of Mercator Research LLC in Monona, WI, and editor and publisher of Farmland Investor Letter, a monthly subscription newsletter providing farmland market insight and intelligence for farmland investors and managers.

He says last year's dry weather, high corn prices and high energy costs stalled the rebuilding of the beef herd, which remains 6.3% under the 1996 peak of 103.5 million head. The number of beef cows in Texas, Missouri and Oklahoma, which represent nearly 29% of the U.S. beef cow herd, was down 4% in January compared to a year ago. Beef cow replacements in these three states contracted 7%. The result: 216,000 fewer beef cows and replacement heifers are competing for pasture than a year ago.

The region's firmest pasture markets are in South Dakota, California and Nebraska, where rates are up an average 10.3%, 7.1% and 6.7%, respectively, over last year.

The January survey reports that grazing rates contracted in Oregon and Washington. However, interviews with market participants in Oregon indicate grazing leases are steady to up 3.5%.

USDA's survey reflects state averages. Local rental rates vary widely based on such factors as forage quality, proximity to roads, and the availability of stock water, size of the acreage, lease term and landowner services. Charges for counting, checking health and water, providing salt and minerals, and maintaining fences vary with each situation.

The accompanying chart (click here to see chart) reports average grazing rates for three common pricing methods: per AUM, a cow-calf basis, and per head. An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.

The protracted drought across the Southwest, Plains, Wyoming and southwest Missouri continued to counter landowner efforts to seek higher pasture rents. Lease rates were mostly unchanged in these states.

South Dakota is the exception. Here the strong cattle market and a tight grass supply due to insufficient rainfall provided much of the momentum behind a more than 10% increase to $20.30/AUM.

The run-up in corn prices is also believed to be indirectly pushing up grazing rates in eastern South Dakota. Cattlemen are feeling pressured to pay up for grass pasture since grass serves as a substitute for high-priced corn, asserts Matt Diersen, a South Dakota State University economist in Brookings.

These cost pressures continue to narrow the lease rate gap with Nebraska, which leads the western states at $24/AUM.

In Texas, rising maintenance costs have prompted landowners to take advantage of healthy cattle prices and push grazing rates up more than 6%. Higher steel prices have nearly doubled fencing costs over the last 18 months, says Richard Conner, a Texas A&M University economist in College Station.

Heading north into Oklahoma, grazing rates are flat to nominally higher. Cattlemen are paying an average of 34�/lb. of gain for young lightweight stocker cattle on winter wheat pasture during the mid-November to March season, says Roger Sahs, an Oklahoma State University economist in Stillwater.

Graze-out wheat pasture, in which cattle remain on fields into May, is especially scarce. Strong wheat prices are prompting landowners to pull cattle off wheat fields before the first hollow stem growth stage to harvest their wheat for grain. This has helped push graze-out rates up 4� to an average of 37�/lb. of gain.

Leases for native grass in Oklahoma are essentially unchanged at $9.80/acre. Bermuda grass pasture -- located mostly south of Interstate 40 -- is averaging $15/acre, up $2.

Lease rates are also flat in Missouri. Pasture leases range from $10/acre to $25/acre, depending on forage quality, reports Richard Sullivan, a Farm Credit Services appraiser in Springfield. Better quality land suitable for hay is renting for $35-$40/acre.

Mark Harmon, who runs 160 cows on leased pasture east of Joplin, says fescue pasture is renting for $35-$40/acre, also unchanged from a year ago.

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the Forest Service are cutting the federal grazing fee for Western pasture lands 13.5% this year to $1.35/AUM from $1.56/AUM last year. The new fee, which takes effect March 1, is the lowest rate allowed under the current formula. BLM says rising production costs, especially higher fuel prices, outweighed strong cattle prices and higher private lease rates. The fee applies to more than 26,000 grazing permits and leases on public land administered by the two agencies.

At the state level, grazing fees on state-owned trust lands are flat to modestly higher. In Oregon, 2007 lease rates are up 3.6% to $5.80/AUM for the 638,000 acres of arid to semi-arid state rangeland in central and eastern Oregon. Typical privately-owned irrigated pasture in Klamath County, OR, rents for $22.50/AUM. County Assessor Reg LeQuieu expects 2007 rates will rise to about $24/AUM.

In Colorado, state grazing leases are up 5.5% and range from $7.64/AUM to $10.22/AUM.

In neighboring Nebraska, grazing rates on state-owned land are generally flat, despite USDA's reported 6.7% average increase for private leases. State leases for sandy soil pasture range from an average $21/AUM in the western Sand Hills, to $28/AUM in the eastern Sand Hills.

The extended drought has prompted continued cuts in stocking rates, reports Ron Vance, field supervisor with the Nebraska Board of Educational Lands and Funds.

Heavy herd liquidations over the last 6-9 months in the south-central and southern Plains have left some uncertainty in private lease rates. In mid-February, local observers expected private rates to hold steady at $18-$24/AUM in eastern Wyoming and the western Nebraska Sand Hills, and $22-$30/AUM in the eastern Nebraska Sand Hills.

Still, private rates could soften because fewer cows are competing for grass, notes Lex Madden, manager of Torrington Livestock Markets in Torrington, WY. Western Nebraska, western South Dakota and most of Wyoming remain in a moderate to severe drought.
-- Mike Fritz, Mercator Research LLC, Monona, WI

Strong cattle prices? that pucker was smokin dope.
Most of us brought home 15-20000$ less this past fall, than we did in 08, and 08 was less than 07,07 wasn't as strong as 06, for crying out loud.
Buzz who pays your wages?

I'm not a rancher or farmer but I can say that there's a lot of business people who've taken it hard in the last few years. The farm/ranch community is just one more place that's taken it's hits just like the rest of the world.

Dober

Dober absolutely the small business community has been hit and hit hard. The problem when farmers and ranchers start taking it in the shorts is , those shorts already had holes in em. With profit margins being slim to none in the good years, the bad years are even tougher. This is why the attack on "public land ranchers" is so sickening. The expenses those guys incur that folks not involved with them don't see are terribly high.Their winter feed costs are probably twice what mine are, the weaning weight of their calves means less $ per head than what a private outfit gets, and then you take on the added expense they have in the extras it takes to run of public land .
I the basin where I live I sort of expect there to be a couple of collapses this coming year, and I'm not sure how many more of these years my outfit can sustain.
The problem is when folks like me go out of business the cows go to town, the land gets parceled, and there's another 5000 acres that doesn't make for very good wildlife habitat.
Of all the things man can do to the land erecting towns and homes is the one thing it will take millions of years to undo.

Geeze
Think I'll go to a hunter friendlier state like...California

Mark:



Just did a little surfing.... between 13 to $15 per animal unit month.

There are several plus sides to deeded leases. 1. They usually involve very productive pasture or meadow lands that yield tons as opposed to lbs of forage per acre. 2. The landowner is responsibe for fencing, water, and security. 3. There are usually handling facilities for loading, unloading, or working stock. 4. One can put out supplements etc to boost nutrition and weight gains. 5. Topography or distance to water does not usually constrain animal distribution.

Our mid-elevation (4,000 ft) BLM grounds typically yield between 200 to 500 lbs of forage/acre in good years. In bad years half of that. Average precip is 12 inches annually and 80% comes as snow. Standing crop can be tripled if fire or herbicides take out sagebrush. Sage will return though and stocking rates will have to decline.

Typical allotment management strives to leave about half of the standing crop for soil protection and as forage/cover for mother nature's critters. On ranges I've worked with, one needs from 7 to 9 acres to carry a cow for a month. We don't have turf. One can step on a single bunch of grass, and may be able to reach another with the next step. I some of Nevada, it may be 15 feet between bunches of grass.

A good approximation for herbivore intake is 3% of body weight per day. Thus a 1000 lb cow needs 30 lbs (dry weight) per day or 900 lbs per month. Start multiplying things out, and one needs a lot of property to carry 250 hd for 7 months of the year on our high desert grazing lands. Forage quality is usually below maintenance levels from mid July to early October, and stock can barely maintain or typically loose weight. They make fabulous compensatory gains in April, May, and June (like up to 4 lbs per day).

Two hundred and fifty cattle will not make a person rich, but he can work his ass off caring for them. Most have to put up hay to get cattle through the winter, so winter feeding costs (tractors, fuel, labor for harvest and feeding) often amount to 70% of an operation's budget

On top of low standing crops, topography and water tend to limit where livestock can or will go on public lands. Slopes exceeding about 20% or lands greater than 1.5 to 2 miles from water are seldom visited by stock. In rugged enviroments, 70 to 80% of an allotment's land area may essentially be unavailable due to topographic constraints.

The reason the west contains so much public land is that it's just not productive enough to support small scale endeavors. Homesteaders tried in the early days, struggled for a few years, and gave it up. Nearly all that homesteaded land reverted to public ownership. Grazing allotments were formed and priority given to the nearest rancher that was able to tough it out and survive.

Those homesteader hardships were the product of eastern lawmakers who absolutley knew that anyone with a strong back, horse, and a plow could care for a family on 160 acres. That's certainly possible back east with deep soil, no rocks, and 35 inches of growing season precip. Not so out here with 10 inches of soil and 12 inches of precip in the form of snow.

There are those that argue for open bids to graze these lands each year. Tossing out a new batch of ignorant stock, riders, and equipment in such expansive and harsh enviroments would be an absolute wreck. It takes people and animals that know the country to come close to making things work. How many of us would run a business and hire a new lowest bidder manager to run the shop each year? It pays to have knowledge around.

South of here there is a Pliestocene basin that contained 7 towns and school districts in the homesteader days. Today, it all belongs to a single ranch and is divided into approximately three 100 square mile pastures. That's enough property for them to winter their cows, so they move out to federal allotments during the summer so their winter ground can grow a new crop of forage. I mixed in 15 GPS/radio collared cattle in one of their allotments this past summer, and with 3 days of searching, 3 of us found 4 of those cows. The pasture covers 366 square miles. It was stocked for 3 months. My goal to compare the travels and activities of experienced and naive stock. I've got a ton of numbers to crunch and maps to poor over.

If that was an absolutely square pasture, that's 76 miles of fence to check and maintain, as well as miles of pipelines, springs and stock tanks to service. Pay some one with several horses to take care of those tasks and profits are eroded in a hurry. Even with todays technology, the grazing animal is about the only way one can get any return at all from those lands. They obviously can not grow crops

Some see public land grazing as an easy, get rich quick, subsidized trough. For the most part, it's a way for a few 3rd or 4th generation hard working folks to eek out a living. If we want to think of leeches, look to where all the billion dollar government checks went in the last 6 months. I don't think many western ranchers cashed in.

I will admit there are still areas where there are stocking rate or distribution issues to resolve. Those that want to sustain a family ranch will typically work to solve such issues. There are still some hard headed apples around that don't want to think or shift from the way that dad did things. Let's not condem a whole group of fine Americans because there are still a few bad apples to tend to.

JeffP: Load up and go to Wyoming for about 8 or 9 days. There's plenty of public land and pronghorn to go around. You'll be safe, because we'll all be in town shooting it out in the streets. Take care, 1Minute

1minute, that was a most excellent presentation. Thank you.

Ranch and Buzz: You know this stuff was really sort of fun. We ought to go fishing and have a beer some day. JeffP: Just come in after dark and pick up the leftovers. Take care, 1Minute

They don't allow booze at the Quigley shoot, but if you bring that Shiloh of yours , I've got icedtea and lemonade at camp in the evenings, and coffe in the morning....

Interesting thread.

Back to hunting though, I still don't feel bad paying a rancher a couple bucks to hunt his "back yard". It may be a several thousand acre back yard but its still his place and I appreciate him letting me on since he doesn't know me from Adam. And yes there is plenty of public land for all to hunt so go forth and hunt and have a good 2010 season!!

Ranch13: Those folks at the Quigley have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the BPCR stuff. The wife got me a Brooks 545 gr Creedmore mould for Christmas. I'd like to show up there with a pencil and about 100 pages to take notes with. I'll have to think about that. 1Minute

Don't forget 100 rounds or more of ammo.
It takes 48 for score, bring about 20 of your 405 gr load for the offhand practice and score (eight shots on 6 targets).
Come on along bring the wife and all , its a huge gathering.

Just to bust your chops a bit, but these statements are not entirely true...

I don't know dick from adam....but I know to appreciate a man when he allows me to hunt his land...even if it leads me to public.

Hey, I'm with you. A guy's got to be thankful for good landowners, whether they let you hunt or not. I'm just saying, in WY, there's really no need. Just seems wierd to look for a trespass fee ranch, first requirement out of the gate.

I agree - if I was a local I may not pay to access private. But for a non-res trying to make sure that they aren't trespassing and knowing ahead of time that after driving 1140 miles and already spending $700-$800 on a trip its just nice to know you have a place to hunt. And it seems anyway the easy to draw units are mostly private, [/quote]

A BLM map costs $4.

JeffP: Yes one can secure BLM or Forest maps that will delineate public/private ownership. Unlike the east, one will not find little 40 acre checkerboards. Many of the public sectors will be several hundered square miles in size. In much of the area that pronghorn roam, it might actually be more of an issue to find deeded land.

Not trying to talk you out doing a little fee hunting, but if the fee makes or breaks the budget, I'd not worry about it and just go.

I have BLM maps,Delorme Atlas in hand.As Oreganmulie said,the easy to draw areas are primarily private.

JeffP,

It isnt rocket science. Check the WYG&F webpage for walk-in and HMA's for antelope hunting opportunities.

I bought a second buck antelope tag in an area with leftover permits this year and found a TON of walk-in hunting areas in the unit. I'd never set foot in the unit, left my house at 5:00 am and could have killed multiple antelope bucks within minutes of being in the FIRST of several walk-in areas.

I killed a buck antelope by 10:00 am and was back home by noon.

Nothing to be afraid of and you dont have to pay a trespass fee to have a quality hunt.

What unit?

If you're going to ask for a trespass fee ranch in the state of Wyoming, don't ya think you'd mention the part of the state or the unit first? The * units listed in the regs typically still have more public land than a guy can possibly hunt in his extended 2-3 day antelope hunting. 2-3 days for most that hold out for a decent buck, most antelope hunters are done in less than a day.

I know of 2 trespass fee ranches that have stomper B&C bucks on them, and you can draw the unit every year, with the special tag, no points needed. But being the unhelpful prick that I am.. lips are sealed. Why encourage the madness??

If you're not looking for a giant buck, and looking for a hunt with limited pressure, all you have to do is avoid the first few days of the season, pick almost any unit in WY that you can draw, and buy a $4 map.

25,26
Taking a nephew,just looking for a good time w/o the pressure
of seeing who can get to the smelly goats first.

JeffP,

unit 9...I'm feeling generous.

The units you picked have plenty of BLM...I'd bet you a stack of Franklins I could find a good buck on public land within a half day of being there.

For an example of how uncomplicated things are, heres a WY whitetail I shot by looking at a map of Wyoming. I had never hunted the unit before, and I've never been back. I was on my way to Montana to hunt deer and elk and still had my wyoming general deer tag in my pocket. I timed my drive to Montana so I would be on about 5 sections of accessible state land right at daylight, just a few miles off the interstate.

I wasnt looking for anything special and was actually thinking I would shoot a whitetail doe if given the chance. Found this buck instead and for only a half hour detour it turned out pretty well. No trespass fees, no knocking on doors, just used a map and common sense.

I too am looking at doing my first antelope hunt this year. Looking at the WY fish and game website, seems most of the easier to draw units are destignated:

Hunt Areas with Difficult Public Access:
Hunt areas marked with an asterisk(*) on the tentative hunting season information charts are predominantly private lands or have inaccessible or limited access to public lands. If you are considering applying for a license in any of these hunt areas, you are advised to obtain landowner permission prior to making application for a license. Obtaining permission to hunt after your receive a license is often difficult or impossible. You may hunt legally accessible public lands within these hunt areas, but often such lands are in small parcels, receive heavy hunting pressure and may not sustain the species of wildlife you desire to hunt. In addition, wildlife abundance and distribution are often greater on the private land portions of these areas. The inability to secure a place to hunt is not cause for a license refund or exchange of license for another hunt area. For information on access to private lands, see our Web site at ttp://gf.state.wy.us. There are numerous walk-in and hunter management areas that allow free access, but hunters should check first to determine their availability in the area and for the species they wish to hunt.

Is public access in most areas really difficult, or is this just to try to get people to pay landowners to bring more money to the state? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Wow, I wonder if anyone acutally reads these replies? I also wonder if people actually have a phobia about reading/owning maps? I know the economy is bad and all...but they arent that expensive.

For the second time, in those easier to draw units with the *...go to the WYG&F webpage and look at the public access page. There is hardly a county in Wyoming that doesnt have some type of walk-in or HMA opportunities.

On top of that, many of the easier to draw units with a * have plenty of public lands and public access if you bother to look at a freaking map that shows ownerships. A delorme map is a cheap and great resource.

Quit over-complicating something so simple.

Basically what the difficult public access means is most of the private land that hunters could expect to hunt without much trouble has already been enrolled in the Walkin area program. Beyond that you will need to be able to identify "public" land that is accessable by county road, or attain permission from a landowner to hunt on private land.
Short version no Wyoming isn't a friggin national recreation area, there are people here who work hard to pay the bills and own their own land just like people who live in other places do. So if you wish to use the private land for your recreational purposes you can expect to pay for the priviledge.

...or you can just learn how to read a map and utilize the thousands upon thousands of acres of public lands, saving yourself money and also not have to be at the mercy of fickle landowners.

Which is what I do.

Yep 51% of the state under some sort of government ownership, yet some find it necessary to jump the fence to private lands....

Ranch13...and those people should be fined heavily and lose privileges if they knowingly trespass.

Ranchers that harrass hunters by posting accessible public lands, lying about property boundaries on public lands, etc. should also be severely dealt with, including fines and lose of public lands leases.

And yes, I've been harrassed by landowners in several states and had to set them straight on who owns what, public access, what hunting units their ranches are in, etc.

Well that's a problem now. I hate to see hunting season roll around, seems to bring out the worst in several folks. Be they "landowner" or "concerned sportsman" either way doesn't matter it throws a bad light on the good ones.
A real quick and simple fix to part of the problem, is to get the legislature to pass a couple of laws. First one is unless a person can show that they draw at least 50% of their income from the land (scedule F form the tax return required) they're trying to claim the priviledge of landowner licesnse on , they can't have that license. Second allow no one whom does not qualify as a Wyoming resident per the hunting regulations to hold an outfitters or a guides license. Those two things right there would bring a sudden calming affect to the serenity of October.

While Buzz says he is being generous and there is a large block of state trust land in area 9 I would have have to say he hasn't been there in a while or he didn't read your post which I quoted above. (No offense intended Buzz, so don't get all twitterpated) That area is a 3 ring circus during the first 2 weeks of season and the landowners that border it are becoming more frustrated at trespassers. To the point of shutting down their property to hunting and prosecuting trespassers.

There are however a lot of ranchers in that area that will let you hunt for free, but they are also overrun with hunters early on.

Any area with large sections of "public" land or walk in areas have become popular and busy for the most part. You can minimize the traffic by avoiding the opening weekend.

I'd add that if you lease your lands to others for the purpose of hunting a public resource then your lands must be open to general public access in order to compensate the public for the resource. Imagine the problems that would solve.

elkhunter76,

Was there this September (2009) on opening day...if you cant get away from the three ring circus...you're obviously just a clown.

Wasnt looking for anything special this year in that unit, more of an exploring trip to see what the potential may be on an additional tag. I'll kill a 70+ incher this year there, its a slam dunk on public land or in one of the walk-in areas with a 1/2 day scouting the night before. Had only one morning hunt to spare, so didnt get real picky, didnt scout the night before, and my Dad was heading back to Montana the next day (I gave him the antelope for the freezer).



Was a bit more picky with my second choice tag in the initial draw in a "non-trophy" area that has marginal public lands/access.

Jesus H. ...... This isnt that complicated. Some people are missing the boat on some already posted information by Buzz and Greenhorn.

Pick a unit, buy some frigging maps and do a little research. Go antelope hunting and have a good time.

The unit out my back door is 100% draw. There is little public land and lots of private. A few hours with some maps and you can find a spot or four to kill a goat. Will they make book? No, but you will have an enjoyable hunt.

The rest of the state is even easier if you have a clue.

Now that this thread is pretty will wound down let me put in a FWIW.

I understand JeffP's question and I would be in the same boat was I to go to Wyoming to hunt an antelope or anything else.

You Wyo boys all holler about how easy it is and I don't doubt it a bit. It is easy for you because you are used to the situation. It would be easy for somebody out of state who had done it enough times to get easy and familiar with it.

Now obviously I can only speak of Texas because that's where I am from. Here almost every square inch of property belongs to somebody. We know that. We are pretty spooky about crossing a fence or such like because if we do and get caught trespassing tarrif is pretty stiff.

Now I have read on here about some of the landowners putting up a fence or posted sign on public land that ain't supposed to be there. Well yeah, I got a map and I can read it but don't forget I am a stranger and an orphan in your country. I also have a lifetime of being charry of getting off on someplace I ain't supposed to be.

Call me chicken if you want to but some local in a pickup comes by and warns me off a certain piece of ground I am going to apologize and haul butt. Like I said I am a stranger and an orphan.

I own my land here where I live and I look down my nose on those that sneak in on me and believe me it happens. I border a state park that runs hunts every year and you'd be surprised how many folks don't know what a fence is or seem to not be able to guess why it is there.

Also please remember that those of us not used to hunting public land are also not used to having to compete with other hunters. I been to Wyoming once and I just could not get used to picking a spot to watch and having some other dude wander across my bow. Of course he had every right to be there same as me but Damn, what is he doing there. That is in our mind. I just couldn't get used to it or appreciate it.

So was I ever to go again I would want somebody local who knew to tell me Yeah, you can hunt my place, here is where it is and here is the boundaries. Make me a lot more easy in my mind.

Can you all understand that?

BCR

BCR, the hesitance and questions of a firt-time out of state hunter is understandable. Hopefully the many who've done it can steer the guy into making the best decision and he'll have a great time without feeding the fee-hunting machine. Wyoming isn't Texas and there's many options. Great quality available all over the state, without lining somebody's pockets. Map reading is fairly simple. A modern GPS makes it completely simple and comes at a lower price than most trespass fees..

Buzz ....just wondering why you have to be an insulting obnoxious prick all the time?

elkhunter76,

Just wondering why you have no sense of humor?

I thought that was actually pretty funny, considering your referencing a hunting unit to a 3-ring circus...you know, theres typically clowns at a 3-ring circus...just following the theme, my bad.

No question there are clowns and a circus in areas of unit 9, and unit 8, and unit 50, and unit 100, and unit 46, and unit 38,...etc. etc. etc. etc. always is during antelope season. Doesnt mean you have to get a ticket and join them under the big-top though.

Hopefully you dont really work for the Ringling Brothers or I may feel bad...there I go again...bad humor.

In fairness, you can get away from the clowns if you work at it just a tiny bit...at least in my limited experience of hunting there on the busiest hunting day of the year.