I'm sure some here have seen this.But didn't see it posted.

http://www.cdapress.com/news/outdoors/article_ebd85542-d0fa-527e-be2c-f69a9757b747.html?TNNoMobile

Not sure what should be done. But allowing people to break the rules doesn't set a good example.

Thoughts?

What!? They have rules...? Another not-thought-out-too-well show.

Update http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197

Yeah, that's what I posted about. Don't think they care....

Will be interesting to see what they do. I feel for the kids if they lose their tags. But what example does it set when some are allowed to break the rules.

Also what about all the kids that will miss out because they followed the rules. My daughter turns 10 in november. Was hoping she could get a late doe tag.

I was at a firearms safety class recently, I couldn't believe the small size of the nine and ten year olds there. Most of them couldn't comfortably shoulder a high power rifle. Some could but others would struggle.
I'm all for youths hunting, they are the future, but this reg is a bad call for big game.
Those that put it (and the parents involved) should be removed from the draw and and winning tags forfeited.
There are rules.

A letter to the editor today was by a man who'd entered his kid in a group draw. (They didn't draw.) He said that the application said nothing at all about the kid's not being eligible to apply. He asks asked what they intend to do with his application fees if they decide to throw out the permits. He wants them back.

However, he's wrong. This is in the regulations:

Agree the tags should be taken back and put in the second draw.

On youths hunting,lots of states let kids hunt big game by 10. I think it depends on the kid if they are mature enough or not. I agree there will be kids out there that shouldn't. But I know adults I trust less with a gun than my daughter.

So he didn't follow the rules and wants his money back. LOL

Should get a fine or prohibited from the draw for a few years.

Absolutely agree, but we live in the age of Obama where everyone is a victim...

Not in the 2d draw. Just complete the 1st draw with the original applicants.

Yep.......There were 900 illegal underage winning applicants, most of them on group apps.
They should be kicked out and the rest of us redrawn with their 'winning' tags in the mix.

Thanks some bullschitt.....

That would be fine with me if they can do that.

I'll second that. I got skunked again this year on deer, elk, bear and antelope. 5 years in a row, now.

Don't know how there could've been 'confusion' when it was plainly stated in the regs...

I wouldn't fine or punish the parents-just keep their fees, take back the tags and tell them 'better luck next year".

Normally if an applicant is ineligible, they just keep the fee and skip over them in the drawing. If it's 1 in a group, the whole group loses out. This should be done the same way.

If the parents can't understand simple rules,maybe a fine or not being able to put in for draws might make them learn to read the rules. They should have to follow the same rules we do. Right?

I have never drawn an elk or antelope tag in ID in 16yrs of applying. One buck deer tag and 2 bear tags. I still love living and hunting/fishing in Idaho. The draw is fun it brings excitement. But in the end I'm going general tags usually and happy to live in such a great state.

No elk in 16 years? Where are you applying? There are lots of units with pretty good odds. One time we drew bull tags 4 years running, twice in the 1st draw and twice in the 2d draw.

I've jumped around units. Have put in mostly for bull tags but also a few easy to draw cow tags. Just haven't ever had any luck on drawing a tag. My wife has drawn cow tags 2yrs in a row. No complaints love taking her elk hunting.

There is supposed to be an official announcement by 5pm MST today on ID F&G website on this snafu.
I read that that the resolution will be directly from the state's attorneys office. This is rumor so bear with me.

Invalidation should be a no-brainer, it says right in the regs that any invalid apps are to be disqualified. This could greatly change the results statewide.
Who really knows though with the victim-mentality society we live in nowadays...

Just called the director's office...my opinion (name, ph number) will be emailed to the F&G director...
Call fellas, be kind. 208-334-3700 The gal I talked to was very kind and frankly I think she absolutely ageed with us here.

Decision will be likely tomorrow a.m. ...

Wow! 900 SUCCESSFUL kids got tags... the simple fact there were 900 success stories says the regs were anything but clear. The number of unsuccessful applicants sounds like it must have been far higher... A reasonable man could easily infer they were not clear in spelling out the rules.

And poachers willing to shoot under-size sheep think the youngsters and their parents should have legal consequences as a result of applying for a tag without following the instructions exactly?

Just WOW!

Yeah, Utah should teach those stinking kids a lesson and jerk their tags away from them!?!?! What better way to show them how "adults" do it.

The intent of the legislature was that younger kids should be allowed to hunt big game... What a way to show it to 900 of them.

Utah...lol.

Sniffs rotten bait...moves on.

Wow. Not sure what that rant is about? You been drinking? Or just want to start chit?

The regs were clear to me and lots of others I know. Who didn't put their kids in.


Effective July 1, 2014
� the minimum age to hunt big game
was lowered from 12 to 10. A 9-year old may buy a license to
apply for a controlled hunt tag, but he or she must be 10 years
old at the time of the hunt.

Since this law does not take effect until July 1, 2014, hunters
who are 10 cannot apply for big game controlled hunts in the
first controlled hunt application periods (April-June), but a
9-year old who will turn 10 during the season can apply in the
second application period in August.

Just called and left my opinion. Now we'll probably black listed from drawing anything. LOL

Mac,
If you have time to kill, read this thread, the comedy gold starts around page 7 or 8....
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8689825/8

The guy obviously knows nothing about this app situation or even what state it is occurring in. It is the way he rolls. You'll see that in the thread I linked.

I won't waste anymore time on the fool.

K will check it out later. Always up for some internet comedy.

Off topic thinking about a trip up near where you got your ID goat. Went last year and was too early for good fishing. Thinking later this month or august.

So why didn't you post the thread this photo was in?

In harling one typically uses multiple flies to attract the fish. With enough flies in the water the fish are far more likely to take one of them. Sometimes there are attractors used without hooks... just to see if the fish are there.

AAH ok you learned from or taught Bigstick. Have fun, got some fish to cook. Will check back later.

Its a knee slapper. Photo after photo of the same legal ram from every angle...and it isn't legal to him. A simply 360* circle becomes rocket science. <grin>

Let me know when you head up there to fish...did I give you all the details on that lake? It is worth the hike in!

It may be legal in that no one was prosecuted for it, but it certainly is not lawful and if you knew who had seen the thread and made the same comment you would likely not be so cocky...

Besides getting back to the kids that "won" tags before they were eligible is really where the whine fest was...

About 950 kids drew permits but if they disqualify them, a lot more older hunters will lose their permits, too. Many of the kids are in group hunts. If any of the group is ineligible, the entire group is disqualified. That's nothing new. It's been than way for many years.

Yep, that is the crux of the issue. Probably stating the obvious here Chuck, but I know some dimwits don't get it.
Youngsters are the hunting future, we dads know that and there is nothing like seeing your kid, or "a" kid, have a great hunt, successful or not.
But allowing kids who were unlawful (and the others on the same app) to be legal with a magic wand in spite of what the regs state sets a terrible example to those same kids.

It is akin to the immigration debate, one can get in line or one can go around the rules with some defacto caveat.
And it is the parents who are to blame for this, not the kids who probably have no clue of the regs.

The legal standard should be based on what reasonable people did when reading the instructions... They should have recognized the fact the law changes would be confusing and made special arrangements to revamp the process and install large warnings.

It sounds like a huge chunk of people failed to get it right... so the State got it wrong, clearly. With the time constraints a do-over is probably not likely.

They have painted themselves into a corner and nothing they do will be right... Taking the tags away from the underage winners is probably the worst answer.

We hear this all the time: "its for the children". There seems to be a mindset that anything is ok as long as 'its for the children'. I taught my sons to obey the rules. It's true that for probably all of them their fathers entered the illegal applications but the kids need to learn that we have rules for a reason and age doesn't excuse us from following them. If a kid is old enough to carry a deadly weapon, he's sure old enough to know and obey the rules of hunting.

Many people (including my neighbors who have a soon to be 10 y/o) abided by the regs and will see no tag for their youngster this year. They knew the law and abided by it. They saw no mystery, most didn't.
Others applied illegally even though the stipulations are very clear.

Any idiot who would justify it is cut out of the Obamacare victim-entitlement mentality cloth and is THE problem with this country today.
Kids are the future of hunting, they need to be involved, but they need to abide by the regs first and foremost.
This situation is a great teachable moment for the state and it's kids/parents, even with
the added expense and inconvenience it presents.

Agree with you both (rockchuck and broomd)

What example would I set for my kids if they drew their tag in a draw they weren't eligible to put in for. We can bend the rules when needed?

Sorry not how I'm raising my kids. I've talked to them about it and they can't believe the parents would do that. Must be doing something right. Will get them out fly fishing soon, rivers are coming into shape.

This is part of the whine that is classic... Guy makes a mistake in the draw application just exactly like many hundreds of others did and you think he should be kicked out of the draw for a couple years?!?!?

With that many making the same mistake the odds are the State did a lousy job of detailing the changes.

The writer of the letter said "Application" and you are using the regulations... Important changes need to be spelled out very clearly for people to catch onto the changes... I suspect the changes were not clear on the application.

Absolutely classic, considering... And talk about the whining victim...

What should the penalty be for killing undersize sheep if you want to fine mistake makers on drawing apps?

Funnier yet is the fact the state could have used the application process to weed out the bad applications prior to drawing. The application form includes date of birth... A very simple computer entry program that highlighted underage applicants would have protected the state from the errors. Again, the state is at fault for a lousy roll-out of the new rules.

There's no doubt that the IDFG screwed up by not properly vetting the applications. However, there's equally no doubt that it was made very clear in the regulation booklet that the kids aren't eligible. We're expected to know what's in that book, just like a driver is expected to know traffic laws.

Literally thousands of those with children affected by the new law failed to get it right. That represents a HUGE proportion of the affected individuals. The state roll-out sucked.

A quick check of Wiki shows about 11,000 births per year today and there were only two years affected, so 22,000 affected folks. And of those the vast majority would not have applied for tags. A thumb licked and stuck in the air says over 25% of the affected individuals, minimum, got it wrong.

A reasonable man would have to conclude the onus falls on the State to do a better job.

Expecting kids to know the rules and affecting the eligible thousands that got tags that you now contend should lose their tags, their entry fees, and from some be both banned from drawings and fined is ridiculous.

Especially since the intent of lawmakers was to open up the tags to those kids. Kids of equal ages in future years will be getting that opportunity. In comes down to a quibble over a start date, nothing more.

This is a special whinefest.

The kids didn't have to know the rules. Their parents did and they didn't read the well published instructions. While a few parents can't read, the overwhelming majority can.

I called IDF&G when the regulation became law - my 10 year old wanted to apply for Moose. They said no back in April. IDF&G failed to enforce its own regulations. The apps that included underage applicants (by law until July 1) should be thrown out with no fee refund. The tags should be placed in the second draw.

The tags should NOT go in the 2d draw. They should have a special drawing among the unsuccessful applicants in the affected hunts. If you put them in the 2d draw, it greatly reduces the odds of drawing for those who legally applied.

For example, lets say that they jerked 2 permits for bulls in unit 48 and there were 50 unsuccessful applicants. This would be a drawing among 50 hunters for 2 tags. If they put them in the 2d draw, there would be 50 hunters plus any number of hunters who didn't draw in other units competing for them. The odds drop dramatically.

A redo of the first, Bryon, for the reason Chuck indicated.
It should be those of us in the first without all of the illegal apps.
We should hear something today, I have a feeling ID will go this way.

Either way the state will be more careful in the future, they have faced a real sh-storm this week.

As was said before, the apps had everyone's birthdays. The software should have flagged the underage ones. It would have been a very simple fix.
The error was 2 fold. The applicants should have read the instructions and never submitted the applications. Plus, the IDFG should have had a way to sort them out.

Now you are getting somewhere... Vetting all of the apps again will take time.

Making it right for all the legal age applicants that got it wrong based on poor performance by the state gives them standing to bitch... and possibly file suit.

The State cannot win. If they just keep it the way it is (their first answer) no one is given standing they can use to file a meaningful suit.

I can agree with your argument. I'm not sure IDF&G is sophisticated enough to 1)pull out the illegal apps, 2) pull out the successful apps 3) determine the available tags 4)
run another draw based on the remaining applicants and available tags.

As we think about this, parents of illegal app kids are buying the tags now before a decision is made.

All of which is why the tags will most likely stay just the way they are...

This was posted on another board.

Here is the decision made by the Director.

Commissioners,
I have decided to allow the 362 kids who drew 363 permits to keep them. I
appreciate all the advice I have heard but the narrative below explains my
thinking and will be the foundation for communication with Idaho hunters.

Below is my message to Communicate this that were are editing:


After full review of all information and facts relative to requests for
reconsideration of my June 25, 2014 decision to allow applications for youth
hunters of age 9 through 11 for deer, elk and antelope to be drawn contrary
to guidance given by the Department, I have decided to let the original
decision stand. The administrative hold on these tags is lifted and postal
notification of all successful applicants will commence.

My decision is based on several factors. First and foremost is that there
are 362 young hunters who drew tags that will have their first opportunity
for a hunt taken from them if we reverse the decision. While I may have been
shortsighted in the original decision, I stand by these kids, their parents
and their excitement, in allowing them to proceed with their first hunting
opportunity for big game using these permits. I simply can not bring myself
to disappoint them given the confusion about this issue. I sincerely believe
that parents and kids thought they were acting legitimately. I ask those
parents that did not submit application to place themselves in the shoes of
the parents whose kids drew these permits, through no fault of theirs. Two
wrongs do not make a right.

Second, the Department guidance for the application process was not clear
and consistent in its placement or wording in the 2014 Big Game season and
rule brochure. For example on page 11 of the brochure under What's New -
Hunting Age, there is reference that an age 10 hunter may hunt big game in
2014 as long as they are accompanied by an adult, but there no mention of
the guidance on control hunts that occurs later on page 108. The deer CH
section mentions the youth guidance for age 10 hunters relative to not being
eligible to apply for the youth CH, but the elk and antelope control hunt
section do not have this same information. No mention in the brochure is
made for 11 year old who are not 12 at the time of the hunt being
ineligible. This was done in a news release latter.

Third, there is no Commission rule or Idaho law that established the
Department guidance. It was and is an administrative decision. This is a one
time occurrence that will never happen again. As of today any youth with a
hunting license who will be age 10 at the time of the hunt can apply for a
control hunt. There was no legislative intent language in House Bill 399 to
delay the control hunt opportunity for 2014 big game seasons. That was our
interpretation as an agency that we did not adequately or clearly
communicate to all. Thus no violation of rule was conducted by those who
were not aware of the administrative guidance and submitted an application
and drew a permit. Many very knowledgeable hunters I talked to that were
supportive of this legislation submitted control hunt applications for these
tags based on their understanding of the new law.

Finally, for those who asked us to address their concern that the 1000 youth
applicants may have affected their drawing a permit odds in the various
hunts, we will add an additional 363 permits back into each of these deer,
elk and antelope hunts. A draw for those from the age 11 (who will be 12 at
the time of their hunt) and older hunters in the existing applicant pool
will take place for these added in tags to address their understandable
concern.

I recognize my decision does not address the many children and parents who
paid attention to the Department's guidance and did not apply. I cannot make
right the potential lost opportunity. I owe an apology to about 1,500 age 9,
10 and 11 youth (and their parents) for a decision that runs counter to
their abiding by our guidance. I deeply regret that I have disappointed you.
I will be sending a letter to each with a gift certificate of sufficient
value for the control hunt application fees for the second control hunt or
other tags and licenses. You are justified in being upset with me in this
decision and I accept that criticism.

I hope that we as Idaho hunters can get beyond this decision and back to
enjoying the many remaining opportunities for second control hunt draw for
leftover tags along with the numerous Idaho general hunts for deer and elk,
including some with specific youth opportunities. Further, I hope that
parents and grandparents remember their opportunity to designate a control
hunt tag to their eligible child or grandchild. Thank You for your
understanding.

Not only is that a very well-crafted response, but it is the right thing to do.

This is who I feel bad for

"I recognize my decision does not address the many children and parents who
paid attention to the Department's guidance and did not apply. I cannot make
right the potential lost opportunity. I owe an apology to about 1,500 age 9,
10 and 11 youth (and their parents) for a decision that runs counter to
their abiding by our guidance."

The people that read the regs and followed the rules. Oh well maybe the wife or I can draw a tag to sign over to our daughter. If not birds it is this year. We will have fun no matter what.

Two, things, this was probably to be expected Mac. We live in an entitlement society.
Emotion trumps law and reason. Look at Obama and the immigration fiasco...but I digress.

I wanted the "1000 youth applicants" portion addressed for a redraw and the commissioner did that. (!)
My hunt plans are made but could be altered if a tag appeared due to this latest development, not a perfect outcome, but not all bad.
Just unfortunate for the kids and their parents who did follow the rules...

Agree.

I rarely draw anything and I'm fine with general hunts. My daughter can wait a year if she has to. Only a few late draw tags in November she would be old enough for. Doubt many will be in the second draw this year. But will give it a shot.

All she wants to do is flyfish this time of year. September she wants to chase grouse. So thats the plan.

An entitlement society, huh? You clearly missed the admission they did not do a good job describing the changes, the fact the date setting was arbitrary and not set by the legislature, and the fact they are going to give extra permits... wonder where the animals to fill them are going to magically appear from... to the whiners.

Good stuff, some wonderful ff opportunities across ID.

I've posted before, my wife and have won four once-in-a-lifetime tags in five years in Idaho. We taken several great billies (2 Idaho, one AK) and a great bighorn in recent years.
We should probably play the lotto. Grin...

You should buy a ticket. Thats awesome luck in the draws.

My wife just started hunting again after a few years off while the kids were young. She had a blast hunting last year and now is excited for this year.

From the article:
So, they're playing to both sides.
The number of kids who drew, 363, is far less than what we've been told before. The way I read it, about 1000 is the number of new kids who applied, not the number who drew which isn't what I've read.
They're letting them keep them to satisfy that side of the issue. They're also issuing additional tags and redrawing which will satisfy the other side. I'd thought about that as probably the best solution but I didn't mention it as I never thought they'd do it as they're usually pretty rigid on numbers that way. Considering that they're talking only 363 tags scattered out over hundreds of deer, elk, and antelope hunts, it will make little real difference in the harvest in any one area.

Yep, well surmised...an obvious area of concern as well is the resource--to me the most important facet.
As you alluded, it isn't likely to affect much.

And my 10-year old who followed the rules gets screwed. He couldn't apply for trophy or biggame draws (per IDFG) and patiently waits for the second draw.

No Bry, make it a life lesson for your kid.
Tell yours that it is noble to play by the rules, whether the system justifies it or not.

This small ID f&g situation is a microcosm of the "takers" in our system. Props to you and your child for doing what is right. I hope a second draw tag awaits for you guys....

HMMM new update

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7205

Have they said yet when the new drawing will be? It's HIGHLY unlikely that we'll draw for elk as there are 4 in our group. There's not much chance that they'll add 4 bull tags in any unit.

Well, the results will be up by July 10th, so that draw has to be soon.

We put in for cow elk tags, but we aren't on a group tag as a family. We put in individually.
Maybe we'll do some good. But it's doubtful.

Have been up to my eyeballs in work, but glad to hear the concern voiced as well as a reasonable (as possible) outcome. Not perfect, not ideal, but reasonable.

Good luck to all on a possible pickup tag ax well as the second draw.

Sometime today they're supposed to post what tags they've added along with more info on the draw. There are 316 tags in question but they're only adding 283 tags.

My 10-year old laughed at getting his $6.25 fee waived.

so this thread is about some guys who didn't draw and are mad some kids did. all because the fish and game guys screwed up the draw and confused a lot of folks?

or are they hoping a bunch of people could be kicked out of the draw to improve their odds and have a do-over with the draw?

it's clear to everyone that the state screwed up, the only question is who do you screw over? because at this point there is no win-win.

[quote=Colorado1135]so this thread is about some guys who didn't draw and are mad some kids did. all because the fish and game guys screwed up the draw and confused a lot of folks?

LOL nope at least for me, its about following the rules F&G had in the regs. Then all the kids whose parents followed the regs, are the ones who got screwed. If someone can't follow the regs for applying for tags you think they follow them while hunting?

Yep and the parents that can't read screwed up also. The win would have been fixing it before the draw results were released.

Every application had a date of birth on it. All the state would have had to do is flag those applications and disqualify them. Of course we don't know when in the process the error was discovered. The draw might have been over by that time. But still, we're expected to know the regs and it was there, very plain and clear.

Colorado, there is no seething here.
This issue isn't about sour grapes, if these other guys here are like me, they know where to kill a good buck or elk without the use of a special tag, Idaho is a great state!
This issue was about rules that were broken and how it was handled.

I'm fortunate to hunt both Alaska and Idaho if I chose.
My son lives in AK and that allows me the opportunity for lots of big game and sheep and goat OTC.

Hope the applicants don't screw up on their taxes. Hear tell the IRS doesn't give a [bleep] if you 'don't understand', 'miss some rule' or 'things aren't clear'....

But the IRS can discriminate and 'have a hard drive crash' and expect zero accountability.
They can GFT.

that is true if all applications were electronic. going through paper apps filled out by hand would take forever.

only remedy I can see are go through and pull all group apps/tags that drew on the first go-round, put them into the second drawing you spoke of and make them available to all that are left. postpone the draw if need be to make it happen. no reason to exclude them all together for the screw up.

The drawing is done by computer so all the paper apps are data entered by hand anyway.

The 2d chance drawing is a drawing for unclaimed tags and it's open to anyone. Putting the added tags there isn't fair to the the original unsuccessful applicants in the drawing because it adds a lot more competition for a few tags.

I gotcha.

here we have 2-3 drawings before left over tags are open to anyone. in a case like that it would work. crappy situation it would seem all around

Idaho used to have just 1 drawing. The drawing is for a permit to hunt in a particular hunt and you buy the tag separately. They were having a problem with anti's applying for permits but never buying tags or hunting so they decided to force them to at least buy a tag if they drew a permit. They put an Aug 1 deadline on buying the tag. If you don't, your permit is invalidated and they have a 2d drawing in Aug for those unused permits.
The 1st year they had the Aug 1 cutoff was a mess. They posted the list of available permits and sold them on a 1st come 1st served basis starting on a certain day. Vendors all over the state collected the licenses of their buddies and bought them permits before selling any to the general public. Needless to say, the public was furious. The next year they came up with the 2d chance drawing and it's worked very well.

Wow, the scams for a tag--by both hunters and anti's--are mind boggling.