Having read numerous accounts about the "toughened" Nosler 120 grain NBT, I worked-up a load that shot excellent groups in my 7-08. At just a tick over 3,000 fps, they did this:







I've seen cutaway pictures of these bullets, showing the thickened jacket, and I've read the account of how they've held together extremely well, even at magnum velocities. I was accordingly surprised when I saw what they did to the first hog I shot with them.







This was a year and a half ago, and I chalked it up to being a 10 yard shot and crunching bone. However, I had this happen Saturday:








About 80 yards, quartering toward me. There was no exit. I also shot a sow at the same distance immediately afterward, and there was a massive exit wound and extreme tissue damage. While trimming the quartered pieces just now, I found an explosion of jagged bullet fragments that had been blasted through the shoulder and neck meat.

Am I the only one who's seen this happen with recent production runs of this bullet?

FC

Yeah, that's a bit much...

DF

What's the problem here?

Quartering toward you, and it's hit behind the leg? Am I seeing it right?

If 'twere a cull, there'd be none. I wanna eat those shoulders 'n' ribs, though.

FC

If you don't want meat damage, don't shoot animals in the meat.

Now that you mention it, I waited for him to turn more before I pressed the go button. Good catch.

FC

The hole looks sort of oval. Was the angle the bullet came in on still a good bit shy of perpendicular?

I shoot meat deer in the lungs, as I don't eat much ribs. They usually run, but that's generally not a problem. I shoot a pig any which way I can. Gave one a TTSX up the poopchute a few years back. He was a big, stinky boar, but I bet the Barnes magic would have let me eat "right up to the hole" if I'd wanted to..... (grin)

That is uglier by far than any that we've seen in 7-08 or 280 on antelope,mule deer or elk.

They look dead to me.

Prolly just pulled the trigger too hard.

THIS^

The proper place to shoot a hog is just under the ear. kill em dead. Ruins nothing that you want to eat.

Maybe slow em down some?

This was last Friday, .30-06 and 150g BT circa 2975fps, under 100 yards, probably closer to 75. Didn't laser it and it might have been a little less than that.

Broadside shot, exit shown.

On a hog just in front of the shoulder drops em with very little meat damage too. I'm not a good enough shot to bother with the ear hole shots

This. Guarantees DRT, no muss no fuss. Either that or any CNS placement. They're not going anywhere and nothing messed up that you want to eat.

I'm not disputing placement, at all. 90+% of the hogs I've taken have been with head shots. As distances grow, or when foliage precludes a head shot, I aim for vitals.

My beef is with the explosiveness of a purportedly, "tough" bullet. I've not seen this type of fragmentation with TSX's, CoreLokts, Interlocks, or even soft point bullets. It's not what I was expecting.

FC

This thread reminds me why I won't use BT's on BG animals.

Love them at the range and on varmints though.

I guess results would be better at distance after velocity falls off a bit.

I've had Nosler AB's do that several times out of a 300 WSM. They're supposed to be tougher bullets than BT's but they'll still explode. A few years ago, I got a low hit on a deer. I was just under the heart enough for it to hit the sternum. It was NOT a gutshot, not even close, but it blew up and ruptured the abdominal wall, letting the stomach fall out on the ground as it ran. The entry hole was just behind the elbow and it was straight from the side but the damage extended back 18".

Got it.

What if you slowed the velocity a bit? Or went with a 140gr? Think the results would be the same? Just curious.

M+

That's because it isn't. Why ON EARTH folks keep using bullets like this when there are T/TTSXs available or hell even Hornady Interlocks and of course Partitions (provided they shoot in your rifle, or course) is beyond comprehension sometimes.

Edited to add: The only BTs I've ever used are 50gr 22cal in my 22-250 and in that application, they are great bullets.

I'm not sure what would happen with lower velocity. It might work, but I've had uniformly pleasant experiences with TSX's in other calibers, so I'm very likely to go that way.

For years, the only reports about NBT's that I had read were poor. Then I started seeing pieces about how some of them had been "toughened". And the 120's were singled-out for their toughness, even on elk-sized game, and at .280AI and 7 Mag velocities. They were available and cheap when I came into a 7-08, so I bought a box for load development, and I liked how they shot. Given the good on-game performance reports the bullet was getting, I felt good to try them on hogs.

I only started this thread to see if others had experienced explosiveness with recent production runs of the .284 120 grain NBT, because it wasn't what I had been hearing about.

FC

Well dang

I have shied away from ballistic tips after some bad experiences when they were first introduced. but like you FC, I decided to try some 120 grain in my 280 because of all the positive press they were receiving here. They are accurate but I haven't tried them on deer yet.

guess I'll go ahead and give them a try. but this thread is disappointing.

also bought some 95 grain 6 mm to try in a 243 based on comments here at the campfire.

I guess the worst that can happen is a little lost meat.

I have killed several deer with the 7mm 120 gr ballistic tips and have never seen anything like that. I don't have a number but I have used them several years and killed from 1-3 deer a year with them depending on if I kill some with bow or muzzleloader. miles

I used them on 2 deer a few years ago. Neither had the damage shown on the hogs. I had them going 3200 fps from my .284 Win. The first deer was ~35 yards away and up hill from me. Shot behind the shoulder and low the deer kept going like he wasn't hit until he ran into a barbwire fence and died. On skinning him my F-in-L found just the jacket in the opposite shoulder meat nicely mushroomed. Damage to any meat was minimal.

Next day I shot a deer at 281 yards in the shoulder. It failed to penetrate the shoulder and turned left up threw the next and out the head on the opposite side. Deer was looking at me when I shot which explain the head exit. I haven't used the .284 since so haven't used the 120 BT on another deer. I little leery to after this shot, but both ended with dead deer.

The NBT argument has been ongoing for years. The newer ones, reportedly, are tougher. The 120 was reported to be especially tough.

My personal experience with NBT's has been great at the range, sorta jaded in the field. Some swear by them, others swear at them.

To me, there are so many good/great bullets out there, I don't feel compelled to stick it out with NBT's.

Just saying...

DF

My experience is that sometimes there's more damage with the same bullet and load than on other occasions. Have even seen it with TSX's on occasion, though the odds are better for less meat damage if we use bullets that lose less weight (and don't stick 'em in the meat, or into bones which will act just like bullet fragments).

The tougher Ballistic Tips have a higher ratio of jacket to core, and often the core is harder as well. This doesn't mean, however, that the lead core won't fragment. In fact it does, which is why Ballistic Tips typically kill very quickly with lung shots.

But I also must add that I haven't seen that sort of damage with 120 7mm BT's. The last animal I saw shot with one was a Texas whitetail buck my hunting partner killed at a little over 100 yards with a 7mm-08. The buck was angling away and the bullet hit the rear half of the ribcage on the right sight, ending up in the left shoulder. Only a few ounces of meat was lost.

A couple years ago I shot a doe whitetail here in Montana at about with a .257 Roberts, using the 100 BT at 3050 fps. She was quartering to me and the bullet hit the shoulder joint, ending up under the hide at the rear of the ribcage. Lost some meat around the joint but not all that much. Have seen just as much meat damage from the 100 Tipped TSX with similar shots, so part of it just variation in results.

They perform great at half the price.

When you push them at max velocities and then take shots at short range, it's NOT the bullets fault

Shoot them BEHIND the shoulder and you ruin very little meat

I still use Ballistic Tips, but not at speeds over 2,850fps or so. In medium to heavy for caliber weight ranges, they are a great deer bullet. Even so, I'd not put them into a shoulder I planned to eat. Like most other Hornady, Speer, and Sierra cup/cores, they beat up lungs just fine.

I'll hopefully see how the 120gr 7mm version does at reduced speeds this weekend. My daughter will be using them in a Blue Dot load in her 7mm-08 for our youth season opener. Should be running about 2,400-2,500fps. Really fun to shoot, as the top of the midrange is +2" at 100yds and it is only -2" at 200yds. Very mild report and recoil. The 140gr BT at 2,100-2,200fps has killed well for her to 100yds, but I was looking to give her a bit more range as her shooting abilities developed.

JPro, I think that is about the perfect use for the 120gr 7mm. They worked well for me back when I used to shoot the contender 7-30 waters at precisely the same speeds.

Very good to know. I thought that Waters-style performance would be more than adequate to kill a 100-150lb whitetail. Has been so far! With as many hogs as we have this year, she'll likely see how they do on those big rascals too.

I must get all the good NBT's.

Congrats on the pigs FC.

It appears your unhappy with the performance for a hunting bullet. That should be your all you need for your answer. If it were me, I would save them for varmits or target practice and move on to a different bullet.

I have limited experience running 140 grain BT out of a 7 rem mag, 1 grain over max load shooting deer has resulted in some blood shot meat but still nothing like you got with the 7mm-08! If you like the BT, I would try the 140's to see if they give the desired results. I have a hard time using a premium bullet in a 7mm-08 but I'm cheap like that.

Testing Ballistic Tips, both for Big Game and the Varmint Weight ones, I have found BOTH types seem to be a totally different performance at above 2700 fps or below 2700 fps....on the impact velocities...

Was highly surprised at the varmint bullets, poking clean holes thru manzaneta when their MV was 2500 fps or less....and not exploding like they do at higher MVs...

also heard the 300 Weatherby crowd, talk about 180 grain Ballistic Tips are a lousy bullet for elk hunting under 200 yds, but the same guys think it is the best bullet under the planet on elk at 400 to 500 yds...

Every bullet type and style have a window of opportunity on which they will perform....a ballistic tip is a better choice for low impact velocities, than say a partition... while a partition is a better choice for high velocity impacts...the latter being a tougher bullet....

I think as Passport stated, try slowing down the MV and impact speed....some people are fans of 'speed kills'... I am more under the group's philosophy that prefer shot placement and knowing your bullets performance capabilities and parameters...

I think any of us who expect a bullet to perform the same at 20 yds and 500 yds, are being a little unrealistic...( not mentioning any names on that statement, just a general open ended observation)...

if that 120 grain ballistic tip isn't working for ya, try going a little heavier bullet, like the 140s or 150s, try a partition if you desire the fastest MV you can get out of your rifle...

or slow your MV down....

my choice for what type of service you are explaining, would be the 154 grain Hornady SP or RN.... or a good old Speer 160 grain Mag Tip...
out of your 7/08...

You make my earlier point, only better.

Velocity is a big consideration with bullet choice. As I start working with the 26 Nolser, bullets become a critical factor. A bullet than may work well in my 6.5x55 probably won't be the one I would want for the much faster round, or the one I'd use in my 6.5-284. Ya gotta match bullet design with velocity and intended use. Thankfully, we have better choices now than in the 50 years I've been reloading and shooting.

Being an ole fart has to count for something...

As they say, never mess with an old man. He'll take you out with his experience and treachery...

DF

I am a fan of Barnes, have been since 1992, so there is my 'disclaimer'.

To those who tout Barnes are to expensive, I have to ask, how many shots at game do you get every year? Even if you shoot 50 head of game a year, one box of Barnes bullets will cost about $35 ($80 if you buy them loaded).Let's see, $1.60 (for loaded rounds) per animal.

The bullets are the absolute cheapest part of the hunt (cheaper than the bottled water some guys buy), and they have the most important function to perform.

To others who suggest reducing the speeds, I ask why, when a Barnes can hold up to Weatherby speeds at very close range and still expand at 400+yds, why reduce the speed?

As has been said, shot placement is always crucial, but, the bullet still has to do it's job when it gets there, and that means penetrating to the vitals, even when the shot has to go through big bones and heavy muscle.

To the OP, use a 120gr TSX and drive it fast. You will be pleased with the results, on paper and game.

Yeah, I don't see complaints about bullet costs being pertinent for hunting. Maybe for plinking, but not for hunting.

Considering what hunting costs, bullet expense doesn't even show up on the radar screen...

So, shoot for performance irrespective of bullet cost. Hunters generally don't shoot enough rounds for bullet cost to become a deciding issue.

IMHO.

DF

While I agree that the bullet cost is not a huge factor, I'll say that not much works better on lungs than a Ballistic Tip. If that's where I'm about to stick a medium-velocity .277 to .338cal bullet, I'd prefer a BT over a Barnes any day.

Shooting shoulders? Quartering-hard presentation? A sturdier bullet may very well be a better choice, regardless of any cost difference. Barnes bullets work well there. Cost does not play a huge role in my choice for a big-game hunting bullet in a given instance.

One good thing about Partitions, you get fairly rapid expansion plus penetration.

They're still hard to beat after 66 years of "testing"...

DF

A hearty Amen from the back row!

I still load Partitions in the 6mm and .257 chamberings. Indeed very tough to beat their performance on deer so far. I don't like Ballistic Tips or Accubonds in those calibers, as penetration is sometimes a bit lacking in my experience. Stuff is dead, but may not have two holes leaking blood.

Sometimes the NPT will be the most accurate bullet. My .240 HS with 100 gr. NPT's over 53 gr. MRP will shoot half MOA at 400 yds., cranking'em out at 3,250 fps. It don't get much better than that with a average wt. hunting rifle.

That rifle is now a one bullet, one load gun...

And I tried a dozen bullets and bunches of different loads before finding that one. Second most accurate powder with that bullet was Ramshot Magnum.

DF

I have found the 120's to be inconsistent in performance. I run them around 2,900fps out of 7-08. Sometimes I have seen what Mule Deer described, and other times I've seen what you posted in the OP.



Travis

If you always get the perfect load on the first try, I'd agree.

More realistically, you can fire a LOT of bullets looking for the one that works best in a particular gun, with a particular powder, and costs DO matter

I could afford to put premium gas in my truck, but I don't because regular works just as well.

Besides, part of this sport that I enjoy is trying different bullets. As has been oft stated: deer ain't hard to kill. I can't think of one that I've shot in the last 59 years that would not have fallen to core lokts or power points. But I've had a lot of fun (and spent a lot of $$$) experimenting.

If you think that TSXs are the end all and you're happy with them, that's great. Go for it. But recognize that others may have different, and legitimate reasons for following a different path

Believe it or not, I had a 140 gr. SST at nearly 3K fps out of a 6.5-284, pencil thru a whitetail chest with min. damage, only to recover the deer 100+ yds. in the woods.

I've had that same load blow the heck out of and ruin a Pronghorn cape at >300 yds. Very accurate like the NBT, but not the most predictable bullet in my experience. Don't use them any more.

To me, that's another vote for the NPT. They seem to me to be more consistent performers on game.

Other hunters, for sure, have their own experiences and stories, and I respect that. But, I gotta go with what seems to work best for me, what I'm comfortable with and have confidence in.

DF

All the pictures in the thread showed dead and recovered game
It seems it did it's job quite well

True, all dead critters.

But we have such a fine selection of quality bullets these days, there's no reason not to fine tune the delivery and terminal performance to our liking.

DF

^^^Yep. This!!! ^^^

Supposedly the only difference between the BT and the AB is that the AB has the core bonded to the shell to keep it together on larger game. I've shot a lot of AB's and will have to say that out of my rifle, they're the most accurate bullet I've used. However, the meat destruction is unacceptable. I hunt to put meat in the freezer, not all over the hillside.

IIRC you shot a cow elk in the front shoulders with an Accubond, then came on here complaining about meat loss. Correct?

What did you think was going to happen?

I've shot elk in the shoulder with a number of different bullets and none have even come close to the waste of the AB.

I'd bet a dollar to a dog turd all the shoulder shots wasted some meat. So why did you shoot them in the front shoulders if you're so worried about meat loss?

Because it's a better option than the rear shoulders...

Now, there are Fire contributors who admit to those kinda shots...

DF

That would "realistically" mean your rifle is a POS.



Travis

Snyper,

When I start with a new gun, new round, I do a bunch of online research to see what others with similar gun and round are reporting. So, when I start shooting, it's educated, not random. I let them burn their barrels...

Doing so, I don't have to burn up a bunch of components to find the right load. I often find several good loads and use the one that seems best suited for the task at hand.

If I'm shooting VLD's, which can be a pain regarding optimal COAL, I use the Berger protocol which is on line. It's designed to get where you need to be with a minimal number of rounds. There are other tricks, like the Audette Ladder used by LR shooters. But, I'm sure you know all that already.

Point being, you don't need to shoot a whole bunch to get where you need to be.

DF

I wouldn't go that far to call it a POS, but all the factory and smith built rifles I have that shoot well do so with a variety of loadings and they are not all that hard to find. Fussy rifles either get sold or worked on.

Re the the NBTs. Those picks all look to have hard devastating hits. That is fine on my end and the little meat lost compared to the whole is something that I find not that big of a deal.

Friends, myself and their kids have around 12 or so Deer taken with with TTSXs from .223s up thru the .308W and .30-06 with up front hits. The ones we skinned showed some massive bloodshot trauma to the meat at the entry point. I see little difference than those shot with NBTs, Core-lokts, etc around the entrance.

Have yet to have a solid first hit on a Deer with NBTs that it went very far and this has been with quite a few from the original up to the latest generation. Unless you are going for the head expect to loose meat. Hit them in the shoulders and expect to lose more, no matter what expanding bullet you use.

The current generation NBT is an excellent medium game bullet. It works consistently well.

I've seen the massive bloodshot from a high speed TTSX. Here is a deer carcass, doe shot a less than a hundred yards with an 80 gr. TTSX at 3,600 fps. Not enough damage inside the chest and she ran over 100 yds, had to be found at night in the woods. Not my idea of fun. I've shown this photo before. Hope you don't get tired of looking at it. It does illustrate your statement.

DF

I just don't get this "light for round" hscit when "normal for round" is well proven near and far? My 7x57's generally see 140's (though we used the 160 gr AB in Africa) as would my 7-08 if I were ever to own one, which will never happen. Enlighten this apparent dumazz please.

That beats any we have seen by more than a little.

If you shoot them in the shoulder, you shouldn't complain about "wasting meat"

Shoot them BEHIND the shoulder

Oftentimes when I see pics on here of animals with "bloodshot meat", what I'm seeing is not necessarily wasted meat, but blood that has filled that outer membrane, which gets cut off during processing anyway. The meat itself is often still fine.

Even if some meat is bloodshot, make it into sausage and give it to the pain in the ass in-laws. If it's gross then just maybe they'll quit bothering you.

You probably weren't pushing them at 3,600 fps. That does make a difference.

Ed,

Good point. I just love to mess with different loads and see how they perform. Sometimes it just doesn't work out, so we move on. It's 100 gr. NPT's in the .240 from now on and at 3,250 fps. Great performance on Pronghorns and WT's. Everything so far, DRT and without a lot of carnage.

And, I have a 7x57, too...

DF

Some inconsistent results with the 100 grain .257 BT-

40 yard black bear .257 Weatherby velocities, perfect mushroom. 2 deer three shots, both looked like a hand grenade went off. All old ones.

Old hand grenades or old deer?

I tried them because I wanted to use the same bullet for everything. Including gophers.

They worked well. But I don't plan on using them for deer any more.



Travis

The 7-08 will shine brightest with the 150BTip. The 120 is erratic at high speeds.

I shoulder shot a dink on purpose with a 150 BT, about 25 yards at the most, 2935 fps, just to see what would happen.

No drama, no blow up. Surprised the hell outta me.

Good bullet.

Sounds kind of like the 168gr .30cal BT.

DId Barnes shut the shop down? If not the answer is there.

And if you must use BT, slow is the key at least for the results I want.

125 BT .308 out of X 39 AR... that one works good. Its slow enough that it acts "normal"

But I find myself at the altar of Barnes almost exclusively if shooting game to eat....

I always get a kick out of these meat-damage threads, especially when they begin with a photo of a carcass that�s been shot right in the shoulder.

While monolithic bullets (which aren�t limited to Barnes) do tend to damage less meat, I�ve seen a bunch of animals with shredded shoulders after being shot with Barnes, E-Tips, GMX�s and the old Fail Safe, which wasn�t a mono but acted like one. In fact, the cow elk my wife shot a month ago with a 100-grain Tipped TSX from a .257 Roberts suffered considerable �meat loss� around the entrance hole, but since Eileen put the bullet in the ribs nobody was crying about it.

In fact I don�t worry much about meat loss on elk (or moose, for that matter) because there�s so much meat there to begin with. Losing 5 pounds of meat from a carcass that yields maybe 200 isn�t nearly as big a dead as it is on a pronghorn or doe whitetail.

But the least amount of meat loss I�ve seen from a shoulder shot with any expanding rifle bullet was with a 286-grain Nosler Partition from a 9.3x62. I put it through the meat of both shoulders on a British Columbia bull moose, and basically lost the meat from the hole. Saw almost the same thing on a cow nilgai in April, killed with a 286 Hornady Interlock from the 9.3x62, and have also seen it with the .358 Winchester, .35 Remington, and 180�s from the .300 Savage. Velocity has far more to do with meat loss than bullet construction.

Jorge suggested Hornady Interlocks ruin less meat than Ballistic Tips, but these days both bullets are very similar in their action on game. The front end loses considerable weight, often in the 50% range, while the rear end continues onward. Of course, it depends on the specific bullet, velocity, etc., just as it does with monolithics, but some of the tougher Ballistic Tips are around 2/3 jacket, such as the 168 and 180 .30�s, and 200-grain .338. On average, these don�t damage as much meat as an Interlock, especially when shot at 3000 fps into a shoulder. One of the first animals taken with the 200-grain .338 was the biggest-bodied caribou I�ve ever killed, as big as a typical raghorn elk. Muzzle velocity was right around 3000 fps, and I put the bullet in the meat of the shoulder at around 200 yards. Lost a little more meat than with a 286 from a 9.3x62, but not much.

Actually, some of the least amount of damage from shoulder shots I�ve seen is with Berger VLD�s on deer-sized game. The bullets usually punch right through, not expanding until they�re already through the shoulder, unlike standard expanding bullets which begin opening as soon as they hit hide. (Yes, that�s true of monolithics too.) With VLD�s you�ve got to watch the exit hole more than the entrance hole, but even then damage around the exit is usually minor, because the bullet has slowed down considerably by the time it hits the opposite side. (The bullet also may not exit at all. The least amount of meat damage I�ve seen on larger animals was with VLD�s and broadside rib shots, since they just punched right through the ribs on the near side and came apart inside, not damaging the far ribs at all. The animals died right there.)

But if you�re really serious about minimizing shoulder damage with ANY expanding big game bullet, limiting muzzle velocity to a maximum of 2500 fps results in consistently less damage than bullet choice at higher velocities.

Have you used the Berger Classic Hunter bullets on game?

Reading what works in someone else's gun doesn't tell you what will work in YOURS.

Just look at all the different results on this one thread
The 120 BT works exactly as it should most of the time.

I've never tried a Barnes bullet that would match the accuracy in MY guns, and it costs twice as much to find out they aren't as good

mathman,

Not yet. Have a bunch of tags here in Montana this fall and may try one, but from what I've heard they act just like VLD's on game. The major difference is the ogive on the Hunters makes them easier to get to shoot well--though I haven't had much problem with the accuracy of VLD's in most rifles.

I'm a tinkerer, so I stuck some 95 grain Classic Hunters on top of a 243 load that shoots very well with the same weight Ballistic Tip. The Bergers shot 1.4" and 1" groups at 200 yards steered by a 6x scope, so I called it good.

I'll try my best to collect some data if a deer or hog wants to commit suicide while it's the 243's turn on stand.

Once again you can't have it all.

Info from others doesn't give the final result for my gun, it sure gives me direction as to where I may or may not need to be spending my time (and barrel).

DF

While it may not guarantee results in your rifle, research and tips from other hunters and shooters should give you a clue as to where to start. Often times they do work just as advertised.

I believe you're in dire need of a clue on many subjects.

If someone wants to send me their partial boxs of 120 bt I'll shoot an elk in the shoulder and report back if there's any difference than normal.

Kent

FC, late to the dance on this thread but if you're loading for a "hog specific" round at closer ranges load them down to 25/2600 ish velocities and place your bullet where it's supposed to go and you will do just fine.

No need to wind them up to 3000fps as that's better suited for further out there.

Worked just peachy out of my 284 Winchester.

You guys saying go with the Barnes because even though they are expensive they are the cheapest part of the hunt must switch bullets to practice?

I've never shot Bergers, but I have to admit I am intrigued with their reputation of penetrating several inches and then expanding violantley. It doesn't make sense that they can penetrate hide and muscle for several inches without expansion, then, when they hit the lungs, they come apart.

Like any expanding bullet, I would expect them to start expanding the moment they hit resistance.

I use totally different rifles to practice, and honestly, due to competitive shooting for many years, I flat don't practice much.

But I do shoot a 22 almost all year round at various things on the farm if nothing else... and give the cowbirds heck in the spring with a pellet gun...

Most any rifle is good drop wise and wind wise to 300 yards. Beyond that you have to do a bit of work to make sure you are right. For none of that do I need practice, only verification zero's and any trigger time is practice, doesn't have to be with my go to gun.

Barnes

I do on the rounds in which I use Barnes bullets.

For instance, the 7mm 120 ttsx/120 Vmax combo flies pretty similarly. Also the 6mm 80ttsx/80 Ballistic Tip. Just started messing with the 210 ttsx/200 SST combo in a 338-06. Have yet to shoot the 200 SSTs at distance to see how they match up, but I'm optimistic.

But to answer your question, I suspect most guy's rifles don't see much practice other than for the obligatory single 3 shot sub MOA group posted on the internet after sight in, and the "DRT" dink once or twice a year (alternately one must post up pics of a "shot up too much meat" or "overpenetrated" dink). So the cost of a few Barnes bullets isn't really an issue.

The closest thing to a "perfect" performer is the Nosler partition. Too many reports from Barnes guys about "penciling" to convince me they are the perfect bullet.

Yes, I do that. I have accurate loads for each rifle with Barnes, from 22Hornet to my 30-06. I do not use Barnes for plinking rounds.

I do a fair amount of coyote hunting and have 3 rifles for that, a Ruger M77/22 Hornet, Sako L461/222remmag and TC Icon/243win. I only use Barnes in the Hornet for coyotes as I have far less 'runners' using Barnes than any other bullet I tried in that cartridge.

In my experience, Barnes just seem to hit harder. They seem to make a small cartridge hit harder.

Using the 222remmag as an example, when I hit a coyote that's facing me (which is the usual since I call them in) with a Btip or Vmax, they usually get stiff and tip over. When I used softpoints, the front-end would go down, then the hips and frequently the tail would 'wave'. Basically, I have more dramatic kills with Btips or Vmax than with sfpts. In the Hornet, using Barnes (45gr XLC), the results are similar to Btips out the 222RM, inside of 100yds.

I see you took the NAB to Africa. Did they shoot better in your 7RM than the NPT?

Wanting your thoughts on the subject.

DF

Yes they did Dirt. I have killed probably 150 head of big game with the partitions, and about 60 or so with the AB's. I'm going to refrain from giving the AB's the same high praise I give to the partitions until I take more game with them. However, if I were prodded to having to give my opinion on comparing the two today, I'd say the AB's I've recovered have performed like a tipped partition, and I can find no fault with them yet. They have been a fabulous performer for me and have been slightly more accurate than the partitions have been in most of, but not all of my rifles. When I get partitions to fall into 1" or better groups though I usually call it good though.

I have personally seen big mule deer and aoudad shot with 140-160 AB's with impact velocities from 3300fps (7STW @ 30 yds), to app 1800fps (hogs @ 800yds, 160/7mag) with equally impressive results......60-65% retention. The STW scenario really impressed me with that bullet's performance. You've seen the pics of my African animals, retentions from 50-64%, and very dead (quickly) animals.

All it tells you is what worked in their guns.
The reloading manuals give you that same information.

So what has this thread taught you, other than everyone seems to have different results?

Reading a manual will give you a "clue" where to start.
It sounds like you are the one in need, since you repeated what I said:

Disagree, based on this thread. You want to hit shoulders with speed, even with Barnes-which may be my favorite do it all, but I do like NBT's-you will have a good chance of more than a little lost meat.

You want to save meat and still aim for shoulders, then go slower and use a bigger bullet and you don't need a Barnes and Barnes may not be the best choice slowed down.

Hit them in the head and they all work and you save meat. Maybe in that case you can have it all, but most are not willing to go there.

Same experience here. I have killed two deer with the 120BT @ 3,200fps out of my .280 that turned me off. Now I use 120gr TTSX. Both times the bullet exploded and basically looked as if you had unzipped them down the side with guts hanging out, one quartering towards and the other away. Zero penetration and was a awful mess trying to salvage any meat.
My nephew killed a deer using same rifle and different load @ 2,890/fps and it worked great. I will not use them over 2,900/fps.

Loading manuals give info, but not the same as user info. The manuals tend to be more general and don't give the specifics I like.

I use both.

DF

Yes. that "user info" has really been helpful on this thread, huh?

Well, yes.

I got good info from JG on his NPT vs. NAB experience. You don't see that in loading manuals. I see others have experienced blood shot meat at impact with TTSX's. Ed didn't see the logic in high speed, light for caliber bullets for game and from what I've seen, he may be right.

All these bits of info and nuances of bullet performance on game go into my "computer" as I work thru loads to achieve what I want for a particular rifle.

I don't get that from loading manuals. To me the main use for loading manuals is to double check user loads and make sure they're in the ballpark with tested loads.

Some books, like Ken Waters Pet Loads, give more detailed info than loading manuals. It's the nitty gritty details I'm look for. As they say, the devil's in the details.

Otherwise, what kinda Loony would I be...?

DF

Mule Deer answered this already. Shut up and listen. He's right.

A while back they came out with this really nice round for shooting deer sized game at close range....like 10 and 80 yards. Its called a 30-30. Bullet selection is not critical but I shoot 150 grain in mine cause speed kills.

You won't blow the front half of your critter away with one of these guaranteed!

After 200 or so deer shot with BT's (270 and 260), I still use the bullet and am getting good results. Messy at times, but always deadly. Most of the deer were taken with the 130 gr in the 270. Mostly hunt with the 260 for the last couple of years and used the 120 gr and then switched to the 100 gr BT. The 120 is a better killer on deer and pigs, but I like the higher MV of the 100, which works just fine too. In all cases, I load em hot, and in most all cases I shoot em behind the shoulder. I do hope that all you BT haters will quit buying them, since finding the 260 bullets isn't that easy lately. You will probably find happiness with the Sierra Gamekings. Great bullet and relatively inexpensive.

I think 60 head is prolly enough to make a fair judgement.......................just sayin'.

MM

JG has an impressive collection of fine, dead critters collected with his 7RM and 160 NAB's.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8852001/1

Great info. I agree with DF. Being a loony its great to hear what others are experiencing.

I do like BT's if kept below 3000FPS impact speed. The holes are pretty good most of the time. Haven't had much trouble with penetration, but I run the heavier end of the bullets for the caliber as well.

Sure. Always have because, as a Partition shooter, it gets pricey just shooting those (although I do burn up a fair number). Just a question of confirming the same POI for the cheaper bullets and out to normal game ranges it usually works out.

For example,I shoot the 150 BT and 150 NPT from the 7 Rem Mag to 600 yards and there is slightly more drop for the Partition at that distance(about the width of a hand)...but any closer there is not enough difference to be concerned about if any.

Interesting how prejudices are dictated by personal experience.

Here's a coues buck I shot at 285, 150gr partition from a 270. I'd killed a lot of bucks with that 270 and 130gr handloaded interlocks. Anyway, my son in law had an elk tag and liked the 270 best of all my guns, so I bought a box of factory partitions, he killed his first BG animal. Couple days later I was backpacking in for coues and just took the rest of the box instead of resighting.

The black circle is the off side and where the partition was under the skin, I should have thought to save it, but it was the back half.

The next buck I shot with a 7mm08 and 120gr NBT going 3080 about the same distance. Again the off side.

Both combos have killed elk and deer, I've never recovered a BT... and shouldn't recover a PT in a coues.

Never had a problem with BTs in 25-06, 270, or 7-08. Shot several pronghorn last year with the 7-08 and 120 BTs with no problem. This past Sunday I put a 140 grain BT from my 280AI through the right shoulder and exit from the left rib of an antelope buck at 325 yards. Did loose some shoulder meat, but I expected that with my placement selection. I could have waited a bit for a more broadside presentation, but I was having a hard time finding clear view through the weeds in the fence line.

Did have some excessive meat damage from the20 from my 7-08 a couple of years ago. Sometimes things just don't happen as planned!

Have also used lots of Barnes TSX/TTSX and Nosler partitions with sometimes similar conflicting results. Those times didn't happen as planned either.

Gotta be honest with you good folks.......when I'm staring through my scope at a 190" muley buck, I'm seldom thinking of how much meat I'm fixin' to ruin.

For sure...

DF

krp: Yeah who knows why that 150 Partition stopped? The 130 NPT has not been easy to recover in bucks 2-3 times the size of your Coues.

But odd stuff happens now and then and even the toughest expanding bullets won't always exit.

Which is why I get a kick out of anecdotes that start with "I shot a deer once"......or better yet, "my brother-in-law....."

Not aimed at anyone in particular.

Whether or not a bullet exits doesn't concern me much. Moreover I don't consider it much of a test of the bullet, although I find some exit more reliably than others.

An animal on the ground is better than the best blood trail.

"An animal on the ground is better than the best blood trail."

No kidding...

DF

Yep, both deer stumbled and were dead, end of story for me. I didn't start a thread about how a bullet didn't do what it was supposed to and I should have used XYZ bullet because they are known to be consistent, the deer were dead... just sharing some irony.

Bloodshot meat is also inconsistent as far as bullet goes and really depends on how much bone is grenaded into the meat.

My 06 with first the original 165gr X then TSXs has killed around 30 elk, about as many as the rest of my guns combined. A few have had extensive bloodshot and some just a little breaking the same bones. And usually it looks worse than it is, butchering my own there's not much meat waste after trimming.

Bloody pictures don't scare me off a known performer.

Kent

Yeah, a sample of one isn't much to go on, although I can understand why it'll make someone nervous if they have bad or unexpected experience first time out. I loaded some Interlocks for a .270 once,130's or 140's can't say for sure, and loaned it to a buddy. Watched him shoot a small whitetail buck with it, behind the shoulder at about 100yds. Bullet did ok, dropped him where he stood but I found fragments scattered all over, never made the off side. I was a little surprised, having read that it was a pretty tough bullet. Might have shot the next 50 with full penetration, who knows. Enough guys have killed enough game with it that its obviously a pretty good bullet, sometimes shixt just happens.

Statistically, a sample of one is meaningless.

But, to the one with that sample, it can leave a lasting impression, affecting future bullet choices...

And who's to say our choices aren't tainted somewhat or even totally by perceived notions...

Like in Hollywood, when myth veers from fact, print the myth...

DF

And the more different bullets you shoot, you realize there isn't consistency, just tendencies, not consistencies.

Kent

Yeah, tendencies and perceived notions rule...

DF