I have a quantity of .416" and .423" A Square Dead Tough soft point bullets. I have a 416 wildcat and a 404 Dakota(.423"), capable of 400 grains at 2400 fps. I want to use these on cape buffalo.

I have taken one buffalo with a 416 Remington and this bullet which went very well. It was a one shot kill but only because I was unable to get a second shot. This shot exit and was a quartering to shot at the point of the near shoulder. It broke shoulder joint and exited a rib through pipes and lungs. In five to ten minutes we heard the bellow.

So question is, was that a lucky shot or normal performance? Since I have these expensive bullets, would they be a good choice or should I use Swift A-frames as with my 375? I have also taken one with this bullet in 458" in a 450 Ackley, it worked but 465 grains at 2400 fps.

The swift has never failed me but I have a load with these dead tough's for my rifles so thought I'd try. What do you think?

They do not enjoy a good reputation for use on heavily boned game - as opposed to lions where the dead toughs are supposed to be excellent - because they are thought to be too soft and to expand too readily and too much.

Similarly, the lion load is thought too soft for lions - but excellent for leopard.

Your experience is opposite the "prevailing wisdom." I'd always go for real personal experience over "prevailing wisdom."

But, I wonder, with the great performance you report, why ask for others' opinions? Hints of trouble?

JPK

I'd never heard they were too soft, quite the opposite actually but only about a half dozen or so uses that I personally know of. My one and only with the 416 was about equal to the same caliber with the A-frames. I just din't think once proved anything at all. I've taken an even dozen with nine different calibers and have concluded the most perfect caliber for buff is the 416 class rifle. With a well made 400 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, it's about the perfect balance for a comfortable rifle to shoot with a significant step above the 375 and still enough reach out capability for that kudu or sable of a lifetime that is out yonder a bit. So all my buffalo from now on will fall from one of the rifles of that ballistic niche, just trying to find the perfect bullet. The lion loads are very fragile and probably won't exit a 'possum, but the DT's are stronger built. A woodleigh won't exit from a 416 unless maybe broad side lung shot. They rarely cooperate that well for me.

During hard times and when in doubt I'll always take a Swift for the first shot on buff.

JPK, I think you're confusing the "Dead Tough" soft points from A-Square (which have a very good reputation) with their "Lion Loads" which are very soft and are only for very thin skinned game. Everything I've read is that the Dead Toughs (including Terry Wieland's book "Dangerous Game Rifles" is that they are very good bullets, but very expensive.

Regards,

Chuck

The dead tough is tough..The Lion Load is a joke, its softer than butter and better suited to Dik Dik and Jack Rabbits....

I would use the dead tough on Buffalo, but there are better bullets for buffalo such as the Woodleigh (particularly the 450 gr.), The Northfork Soft point, and particularly the North Fork cup point, The GS Customs monolithics work, and allthough I am not a Barnes X fan, I will admit they seem to work very well on large animals like Buffalo...The Swifts seem to work well enough on Buffalo but all recovered Swifts are too smooth and have no ragged, jagged, tearing edges and IMO Buff can make a lot more tracks and leave less blood on ocassion..

Your report on your buffalo kill is what you can expect in 95% of the cases..You shoot them in the heart/lung vitals with a 375 H&H or 600 N.E. they buck a few jumps and then run and die somewhere around 30 to 50 yards or so from the location of the first shot, even if you get a couple of follow up shots in them, unless you break them down with a spine shot..

If the first shot is not correct then they can go forever it seems, and at some point it is likely they will be ready to fight when you see them again. A gut shot broken jaw or broken leg, is likely to end up in a bru ha ha with a buffalo...

Buffalo that are in an area where they are not bothered much don't seem prone to agression, as buffalo that are chased by Lions every night or that are being hunted continually, those bulls can get very aggressive and are prone to charge at the drop of a hat...

I know of a big ranch in RSA where the bulls are hunted really heavy year around, and those old boys are just plain mean and will charge on sight of man on foot at least 80% of the time I am told.

Chuck,

No, I'm not confusing the two. Rather, the reputation of the Dead Tough is that it is unsuitable for heavy boned animals but great for lighter boned larger animals like lion, for which it is supposed to be excellent.

The softer Lion Load is reputed to be too soft for lions, but about perfect for leopard.

I think that my understanding is a very broadly held concensus, but maybe its not so widely held.

I do know that the fellows in Zim I've hunted with were of the opinions I've cited. A Square provided Zim with loaded ammo several decades ago with the A Square bullets, it was widely used and the "concensus" I repeat was the result.

Ganyana over on AR will tell you the same thing if you ask him. He was/is a Parks officer and PH tester.

JPK

JPK: +1 on your assessment of the Dead Toughs & Lion Load. jorge

I am not a fan of the Colonel, or anything he makes. There are better bullets.

My mistake then JPK, I just got my information from Art Alphin's book "Any Shot you Want" and Terry Wielands book "Dangerous Game Rifles" I've never used any of A-Square's bullets myself. I have personal experience with Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames on game, out of my 270, both of which I've been happy with. I'm planning to shoot 600g Woodleigh PPs and solids through my 500 Jeff at 2150 fps. That should be slow enough to prevent over expansion, but have plenty of power and penetration.

Regards,

Chuck

Thanks for the replies folks. I think I'll try them again with this 416 I'm sure they are better in a 416 than a most bullets in a 375. I will keep some A-frames and Woodleighs handy though. I am really fond of walking good buffalo coutry with a 416.

Might want to look at Hawk bullets. They make them in different jacket thickness. I grabbed a few boxes when I couldn't get Woodleighs and used them on buffalo with my .450/400. They performed marvelously.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/

Really cool pic. REALLY nice buff.
My experience on DG is limited, but my vote goes to A-frame for that first shot on Buffalo.... it worked for me...
Ingwe

Very lovely bosses. An excellent hard headed old bull. I have used the Hawks and wouldn't mind using the thick jackets. I've got them to regulate in doubls before too. What is your double there? A very nice picture. Thanks.

Hatari, thats a nice buff. I could live happily ever after with that one on my wall. Could you direct me to the story so I don't hi-jack this thread?

Murphy, I hope you'll consider my question an extension of yours since the experts are engaged here, not an attempt to hijack your thread. I'm trying to resolve a very similar problem and would appreciate advice from the veteran buff hunters. I'd prefer to use my Ruger African 404 wildcat for an upcoming buff hunt (my first DG hunt in Africa) in Moz, but the Ruger may not be re-bored in time. If so, then I'll use a Win M70 416 Rem Mag. The problem: MY PH tells me that he no longer uses or recommends solids, but rather premium SPs/monolithics instead (he's favorably disposed to both Barnes & Swifts). So, do you recommend I use Barnes 400 grain bullets TSXs, Swift 400 AFs, or Woodleigh 450 SP RNs (in either .416" or .423" depending on which rifle I take)? I will of course test the intended bullets in the summer to make sure of function and accuracy. Thanks in advance for any responses based on experience.

400 gr TSX's would get my vote.

Randy Brooks, the owner of Barnes Bullets use the 350 grain TSX in his 416 Rem

Now THAT is a dead -cool buff!

Or is that a cool, dead buff????

Either way, I want one!

Maybe so, but I'm not looking for more speed, just straight-line penetration, broken bones and a dead buff without a fuss. 400 grains is the minimum in the 40 calibers, I think, to meet all these specs.

You will find that when using mono bullets, stepping down one weight, about 10% down, from the traditional weight bullets works very well. The monos are longer and depending on the rifle's twist, a standard weight mono may be pushing stabilization.

So a mono for a 416 that runs 370 or 350grs is a fine choice, while a Swift AF would be best at the traditional weight of 400grs. If you go Woodleigh, I would go for the 450's too, but I wouldn't go Woodleigh softs only.

You might want to take a look at the North Fork cup point bullet which is a mono with a slight cup point designed to expand some, but to penentrate extremely well. Its probably the perfect buff bullet.

JPK

Murphy,

I pretty much agree with JPK on this. I used my M70 416 Rem when I hunted buff and tried the 400gr. A-Frame, the 350 & 400gr. TSX, and the 370gr. Northfork softpoint.

I ended up taking the A-Frame as my softpoint because I've always felt very comfortable with their performance on heavy game and the 400gr. shot extremely well in my rifle. The 350gr. TSX also shot very accurately from my rifle. I had issues with the 400gr. TSX since it took so much space in the case that I really had to back off the powder charge to keep the pressure down to reasonable levels. I openly debated on these pages whether to go with the 350gr TSX or the 400gr A-Frame, but finally decided on the A-Frame since it shot to same point of impact as my North Fork flat-point solids. If I remember correctly, the TSX's shot about 4 inches above the solids. In any case, I don't think you could go wrong with either the A-Frame or the TSX of either weight. Based on my experiences, though, I think the 400gr. TSX is pushing the limits in the 416 Rem. just because of its length.

Since your PH wants you to bring only one type of bullet, I would go with what JPK says and use the North Fork cup point solid as long as it shoots OK in your rifle. For a single bullet, I have to agree that it seems about perfect for good penetration but still with some expansion. The only caution I would have is that most PH's haven't heard much about the North Forks, so your PH my have his doubts and trepidations about using a bullet on buff that he's never seen or heard of. If you can get past this issue, though, I'm sure that the bullet will perform.

Just my two cents! Hope it helps.
Test

JPK, test, sensible advice. I may be able to take the 404/375 Ruger after all, as it seems to have now been finished. But if I need to take the 416, I'll try the 307 NF and the 400 AF, as I'd like to stay at or close to 400 grains, while taking into consideration the relatively small case cap of the 416RM and the length of mono bullets. Thanks for the help.

NF also makes an excellent regular, bonded core soft, btw. If you go AF, might want to bring a hanful of the NF cup points for second or third and subsequent shots. With the cup points, you really do not need a solid for buff.

JPK

JPK,
Having never used the Dead tough, and since I never will anyway, I bow to your wisdom, I was quoting a couple of folks that used them on their buffalo and they claimed excellent results on buffalo in thier 470s...Sometimes it makes a difference in the caliber that you use with a particular brand of bullet as to how well they do or do not work, at least that has been my experience..

But, the bottom line is I only use three brands of bullets for dangerous game and that is North Forks, GS Customs, and Woodleighs..

My favorite Buffalo bullets are the North Fork Cup Point, and the 450 gr. 40 calibers and 350 gr. 375 calibers. I also like the heavy for caliber Woodleighs for Lion. For elephant I like the GS Customs flat nose solid...The best elephant bullet I ever saw was the Bridger flat nose solid, and I still have a few hundred of them.

Ray,

We are both relying on second hand reports. Mine are from fellows in Zim, in particular Ganyana, who found the dead toughs too soft for buff, but excellent on lions.

I'll second your bullet choices for dangerous game.

You can't go wrong with the right Woodleigh for anything, but the flat nose solids enhance penetration and the cup points make two bullets for buff unessecary.

JPk

JPK,
Well Ganyana is a darn good source for this kind of information and I wouldn't argue with him about any bullet that he opines on..based on that alone I won't ever bother to try them.