In anticipation of our Namibian adventure, my dad saw the wisdom of buying a new gun for the trip. It is really a beauty, too.

The first two groups were less than inspiring. 57.5 gr H4350 and 165gr Hornady SPBT's (not the bullet he'll use on game) gave two 3 shot groups at 1.75". These are the only thing I've tried so far, so we have a ways to go. I've checked all the normal bedding and screw torque issues and there's nothing wrong in this regard. The thing does have a pretty significant pressure point and it has a throat that's reminiscent of Weatherby free bore. Anyway, I'll keep playing with loads, but I'm thinking if I don't see results in about 50 rounds or so, I'll remove the pressure point.

Can't imagine not bedding it and killing the pressure point.

Well, I'll tell you, if it were my gun, I would have likely removed it and resealed the stock before I shot it. I really don't like pressure points on walnut stocks. I talked to my dad about it today and he told me to have at it if doesn't improve.

Going to try 168 gr TSX later this weekend and see if it improves.

Yep...Ive got a Remington M7 I was having a LOT of trouble getting to shoot ( I usually don't mess with anything unless its dire...)
Finally in frustration I asked JB if he thought I should hog out the pressure point and free float it...??

His answer..." You havent done that yet?..."

'bout all I needed to hear...

It worked...

In fact..it went to Namibia...22-250



Ingwe

You are on the right track two ways. 1) rebed in tried and true fashion and 2) 168gr TSX's

I will be surprised if this combo does not shoot well and work even better.

Good luck and good hunting!

Pleae don't think I dumb, but I'm still not for sure what area you guys are referring to when you talk about pressure points? Is this where the tip of the fore end touches the barrel or some other area?
I just never really learned all the different terms.

Only reason I ask is I have the exact same gun (bought brand new), and it will shoot consistant MOA. Only thing I've ever used though is Winchester 150gr Silver Tips.

I did check mine and I can slide a dollar bill between the barrel and the stock from the swivel pin to the action, and then from swivel pin out the front. Came straight from the factory like this.

Hi. A man asks questions to learn. The point where you can't fit the dollar bill is the pressure point. If your gun is like this one, its about 2 inches from the end of the forend. In general the pressure point is used to help tune the vibrations of the barrel such that it would improve accuracy and provide a source of stability. Elmer Keith once claimed that "free floating is for the birds. I'd much rather have some up push at the end of the barrel." I'm a great admirer of Keith, but I figure he wrote this about stocks that tended to greatly warp. Keith's opinion is not my experience (but then again, I doubt I ever shot near the number of guns he did).

Anyway, with a properly sealed stock that is glass bedded, a small amount of warpage is largely negated by the fact that the action and chamber area of the barrel is resting on epoxy, while the rest of the barrel is free floated. IME this provides the most stable platform and tends to result in smaller groups. Having said that, all rifles tend to be a law unto themselves. There are some guns, I understand, that really shoot better with some pressure between the last couple of inches of the forend and the barrel. I have only owned one gun like this, though, and it was a Winchester Model 70 featherweight in .243.

Just noticed. Who's your little friend in the background? Looks like a story

HS...sorry it took so long to reply..I turned in early last night.

The little dog in the pic is 1/2 Dachshund and 1/2 Fox terrier and was used by my PH as a tracking dog to follow up game that had been wounded and run off...
The dog was an absolute crackerjack at it, stayed at heel very quietly until he was sent on a track. Yipped when he found something still alive, if he found it dead he simply came back to you and led the way...

Another pic..



Ingwe

That would be neat to see. Nice gemsbok, too.

Shot it again today. Using the same powder and charge, but changing to 165 gr. Speer SPBT, obtained groups hovering around 0.5". Changed to the 168 gr. TSX, back to 1.75" groups. I'm going to play with Accubonds a bit, but its sure looking like a rebed.

well, i'll throw my hat in the ring with a story of my own. my dad worked for remington arms (clay target) division for 35 years and he got me a model 700 cdl-sf in 270 win. on discount. i promptly took it out and mounted a zeiss conquest 3x-9x in warnes rings and bases. on my first range session, i followed proper break-in procedure and was rewarded with a best group of 2" plus. figuring this was due to break-in, i just figured on the next session being better. at the next session, things stayed pretty much the same. i tried factory loads such as, federal 130 gr. ballistic tips, winchester 140 gr. xp3's, remington 130 gr. accutips, etc. nothing much went under 2". i came home and promptly removed the action from the stock looking for bedding problems. i saw the infamous pressure point, but nothing else looked problematic. i decided that i wasn't going to deal with a 2" shooter. this rifle would either get better or i was trading it on something else. after talking to the gunsmith, i decided that i would first give it the full treatment and see what happened. i had the action glass-bedded, pillar-bedded, and free-floated. i also had the gunsmith check the crown for any knicks or burrs. on returning to the range, i brought along my two favorite loads. the first is a federal premium load of 130 gr. ballistic tips. the other is my own handloads consisting of federal cases, 55 gr. of imr 4350, federal match primers, and 130 gr. ballistic tips. this recipe has never shot poorly in any rifle i have owned. i started with the factory load first. 5 3-shot groups averaged about .90". after a good cleaning and two foulers, i shot 5 3-shot groups of the handloads. the average was .75". needless to say, i am happy the direction i went and the results i recieved. i now have a rifle that i am extremely confident in and have used on many coyotes at ranges up to 350 yds. i am looking forward to working up load of 130 gr. tsx's for use on black bear, caribou, and elk. this is what worked for me. you might give it a go and see what happens. the cdl sf's are so damn pretty you hate to trade them in on something else. happy shooting, keith

Amen! This is my dad's gun. I'm working loads up for him and he's OK doing everything you just mentioned. He shot it for the first time this afternoon and he can hit the 8" 200 yard gong regularly. I suppose this is all that counts, but it should shoot better.

i would try the accubonds. in my 700 classic in 375 H&H i get 3/4-1 inch groups consistently. i would try bedding the rifle and free-floating it. at the very least, you will have a rifle of going anywhere in the world and not be susceptible to temps extremes (your POI shouldn't change). with some of your groups going to .5", you have to wonder if the rifle just has a certain combo it likes and you just haven't found it yet. maybe look at 180 gr. bullets. if you can find them, 180 gr. failsafes would be great for africa! also, take a look at different powders. sometimes you just need to experiment to find which bullet/powder combo your rifle likes. i am thinking sooner or later you are going to find a combo and be very happy with the results. it's been a long time since i saw a remington that wasn't a shooter. like i said, my dad works for remington and i have plenty of them as a result! none shoot over 1 1/4" groups. i am perfectly content with that.-keith

as an afterthought, how far off the lands are your tsx's? if i am recalling correctly, barnes states they shoot the best 50/1000's off the lands. just thinking....-keith

Well, now that is a problem. This thing has the longest magazine and throat I've ever seen short of Wby free bore. I can't seat a 165 gr. TRADITIONAL Barnes to contact the throat or magazine. It does make me wonder how well bigger (longer) bullets would work.

IMHO, and YMMV, ( I love alphabet disclaimers!)pressure points were for when barrels maybe sucked and bullets were not much better...if the sucker won't shoot floated....sell it or give it to some one you don't really like.....let them dick with it

If it doesn't work for you try the 180s in the TSX....my wife used them in Namibia to '06 a bunch of stuff, and I even borrowed her gun to tip a couple over myself...
Another thought is whatever your favorite flavor of 180...its pretty hard to go wrong with an '06/180gr. combo...

I could stowaway in your luggage an offer more tips throughout the trip....

I'm just sayin.....


Ingwe

That little dog thinks he's at the top of the food chain, weighs 500 lbs., and that his "arrrghfff" can be heard for 3 miles.

I know. I hunted with him too

Hey, yall, I'm absolutely screaming at your response. I do love cool guns and cool little dogs. I hope you don't tire of me, but I plan on giving you the blow-by-blow account up until we leave for Namibia in July. Really, I do think the run-up to the trip is damn near as fun as the trip itself.

Awesome! I think you might have to convince my old dad for that! After he killed the 8" 200 yd gong 3 times in a row, well, he don't give a crap if it get's too much better. My daddy don't care about groups, he cares if he cleanly kills.

And if he can shoot like that consistently, he will kill cleanly...

Consistently..

Ingwe

Sorry...I missed that post...you will enjoy being wrong about that one...

Ingwe

I'm still grinnin' like a monkey. This, I hope, will be a special trip. . .

I have posted this before, and you might have seen it..
I always equated going to Africa with falling in love for the first time...

Remember I said this...

After you have hunted Africa, you will never have a day in your life pass, when you don't think of her...


Ingwe

I read Ruark for the first time when I was 17. I desparately wanted to go then. I recognized that when I was in my 40's it had to be sheep and goats. I'm now old enough to go and to reflect. My dad with his support has made it all possible. Having my dad on likely his last big trip, well, I'm blessed. He and his old Korean War vet buddy put the burn in a little kid. Its 6 months from fruition. I hope, I pray, my son and daughter will be next.

Keep up the shooting and practice!Feel free to post or PM anytime with questions....and Im sure you already heard, its NOT the trip of a lifetime...Its your first trip to Africa...

Ingwe

Good luck on the trip. On those TSX's start with .308" in the neck of the brass. Then go in or out from there. At least thats what I do

I have a .416 Rigby (Ruger) that is prepped for the trip for Cape Buffalo. A buddy has a .470 Heym for the same purpose. Our intent is to go together in the next couple of years.

OK....good choices..
Did that....though we didn't have any real problems..there were times I would have loved to have had a .470 double in my hands...

So practice with your buddies gun too, before that trip.

Also, it is a good thing to do the PG safari first...to get a taste of the flavor of Africa...

In a weird way, buffalo kind of ruined a lot for me..Ruark was absolutely right when he wrote " Once you have hunted buffalo, you are dissatisfied with anything else..."

I'm not exactly dissatisfied, but I sure don't get very excited about 6 point bull elk any more!

Meanwhile enjoy the PG hunt...you'll find things you expected, and didn't expect. Like Kudu are always an interesting hunt, and Zebra are an interesting hunt as well...

One of my favorite pics...also posted before...but just in case you need a little something more to crank you up



Ingwe

Holy Smokes! Look at the bosses on that dugga! That's really impressive.

As for guns, I regulated his double for him. Wolgang Romey ammo is ridiculous (why is double rifle ammo sold in packs of 5?). I'm pretty sure he and I have shot nearly the same number of rounds through each others guns. Its nice to have a good friend with the same interests. Its better to have a father with the same interests.

We always kinda make it a habit to shoot each others guns, in case something goes haywire...

On that buffalo hunt my pard. was using a .375 and a lightweight custom Sako in .458 Lott ( 8.5 lbs)
I HATED shooting that Lott!

And thanks for the compliment, but the bosses on that bull are no great shakes...hes just an old, hairless headed, gnarly lookin dude!

Ingwe

Your bull has character. Nothing better. That, and the fact you manned up and killed one.

A 8.5 lb. Lott? Geez, that must have been annoying (or painful)! I shot a .458 Win once in that weight and I thought it would take my head off. Give me the .470 anytime!

Odd you mention that, my pard bought a .470 Merkel and it is one of very few over .40s that I have liked, and don't mind shooting...a .450/400 is nice too.
I shot the Ruger Express like yours in the Rigby...didn't like it...more recoil than I prefer...gettin wimpy in my old age..
I loved shooting .375s but I think thats where my tolerance stopped..except for that .470 I liked dat one!

Ingwe

.470's are like the punch in the shoulder your 300 lb football buddy would give you.

The same buddy with the Heym has a Chapuis in 9.3. Now that is a wonderful gun. Less recoil than a .375 with the profile of a .410 shotgun. I'm pretty sure if I go to the double rifle dark side, that would be the route I would go.

The 9.3 in a double would be sweet!! Big Time!
I fiddled with a little .450/400 that JB had...'bout like a 28 ga....a real pleasure and not as much weight-by far- as the .470s...

Bed time here...more later!
G'nite!
Ingwe

Got on this thread late. Not to hijack the wonders of Cape buffalo, but I am still pondering (well, not so much) on ohiohunter's post that included the information that he used "proper break-in procedure" on a new 700 and it shot exactly the same size groups after break-in as before. Then he had it free-floated and it it shot a lot better....

I used the Constable Tom Break in procedure for the M7 mentioned earlier that didn't shoot worth a krap...

Until I asked you if I should get rid of the pressure point, and float it...

" You haven't done that yet?"


Problem solved...


But I may still credit the Constable Tom Break In Procedure with the success.......


Ingwe

While we are on the subject, I'm really wanting a 17 Fireball, though a 17/222 would make more sense since I have 600 virgin 222 cases.

.17-222AI maybe?

Ingwe

That's just silly

I say again to the thread..

Good Night!

Ingwe

After sticking my neck out on ballistic issues, I've sort of let the details just flow over me (particularly since some folks' argument is against conservation of momentum--sort of like claiming a perpetual motion machine). I'll just take them at their word. Otherwise it would kill the hell out of my fun on this forum and comments by guys like ingwe and steelie. . .

This gun is really curious to me. The action for all the world looks like a magnum length action. I haven't decoupled the long throat from bedding issues. But, I plan on giving it a try.

As for break-in procedure. I shoot what I feel like and clean thereafter. I'm pretty sure this is what you've preached and I think you are precisely correct. I do have an interesting cleaning procedure if you're interested. I'd post it if other folks are would think it helpful. But, since I'm so new here, I figure its been published before. I will tell you that it gets both throat and bore clean.

Remington LONG actions are just that, LONG.

I once had a Remington .338 UM and I figure this is the same action length. I don't get it, though. I have an OLD Remington 700 in .270, and, while I haven't measured it, it doesnt' seem anywhere close to this length. I think I'll measure it and see if there is a difference.

Grapes or virgins. . .

Huntaria: Your Dad is a smart guy!I'd just turn him loose!

Yep. Thats the aforementioned " Constable Tom Break In Procedure"....

And Bob is right about your dad... That kinda guy is usually smarter than those of us who pay attention to minutae.....

Ingwe

Lots of folks over complicate stuff. There was a period of time I weighed each charge, trickled, measure group size yada yada.

Now I just dump powder and shoot. I have more than a few rifles that I can't even know how far from the lands the bullets are. I HATE shooting from a bench and punching paper is blah.

I just don't care about groups any longer, consistency is king. I just want to kill [bleep] with them.

Funny you mention that, cause that's the way I am with lever actions. I went (well, still am, sorta) on a lever action binge a few years ago. If I could hit a 6" plate every time with open sights at 100 yards, I was happy and the gun stayed. I didn't toy with powder charges (or powder types) too much. Other than my .348, I stick with either RL 15, RL 7 and H110 and some mid to upper weight bullet. In good weather, I have what I like to call "Lever Action Sunday", where I carry all of 'em out the back porch and shoot until I get tired.

Love it when people measure groups to the nearest 0.0001 inch!!

Royce

Gotta admit Im a little bit country and a little bit rock-n-roll on this one..I work up my load( no measuring run-out etc, just powder charge and O.A.L.) then go shooting....

If a big game rifle is keeping them on the six inch gong at our 300 yd. range...I'm good to go...

Buttt...when its time to load that one box of ammo thats going hunting, I do everything I can to eliminate variables, so if I miss, I know whose fault it is right away!

Ingwe

I know what you mean. I'll be pretty anal about the ammo we take and for much the same reason.

I just grab a few rounds out of the ammo box and head out...

When I showed him that first group, he said "Well, that's pretty close." Then proceeded to hit what he was aiming at. I'm sort of envious of that attitude.

Awesome! If for nothing else, gotta love the looks of the XLC's.

Is the rock in that box for when you really want to go "old School"??

Ingwe

A piece of Iron Pyrite, I'm prone to pickup pieces of whenever found.

You mentioned the Constable Tom procedure. The "gunsmith" that built my .338-06 (the only positive thing I can say about this guy is that he screwed the barrel on straight--I think) went into this long harangue on how to break the barrel in. One of the MANY things he said to do was "dip the tip of the bullet in Kroil."

My wife does that with stream rocks....

Did you ever really have any luck with XLCs??

I did better with the rocks...group wise....

Ingwe

Just when I thought I'd heard it all....

I was wrong again!!

Ingwe

My buddy's Heym absolutely loved the XLC's. The coating is tough too. We shot them into some chunks of oak and recovered them. Still mostly blue.

When I tried them, most of the blue coating came off during the bullet seating process...but no matter...I could never get them to shoot...

Ingwe

It's funny, I have a little piece of iron pyrite that I carried in my pants pocket for years whilst hunting. Just checked those wool pants and it's still in there.


Yep on the XLC's. Here is a Crown box I busted at 700 yards with the 257 Roy (notice the blue on the box). That was the 6th shot ever through that rifle, 7th kilt a bar.



Skinned

I used them in only two calibers--.338 and .470 and didn't have an issue. Yeah, if I saw the stuff come off on seating, I'd been pretty unimpressed.

There was a gunsmith in Idaho a few years ago who was telling customers that if they didn't have him break-in their new rifle barrels "properly" that the barrel would be ruined forever. It almost caused me to avoid Idaho forever, but then I remembered that there are some real dumbasses in Montana too.

In the years of the XLC I found exactly one rifle that would shoot them. My NULA .257 Ackley would put 100-grainers into about 3/4" at 3300 or so. I was pretty happy--and then Barnes brought out the TSX, which shot in about everything, and good-bye XLC.

If that bear had been into my whiskey, I'd a kilt him too!

His hide looks awfully nice.

Actually it was a 17 year old sow.

Hmm, did properly include the Kroil treatment?

I've not bear hunted too much, so my judging skills stink. From the looks of its ears and head in the picture, I would have thought it a boar. Do the older sows start to get a square looking head?

Nice Black bear Scott...

Good that you killed that Crown too...Ive killed some in my time, but it usually took more than seven shots...

Ingwe

Evidently he used a secret recipe that he alone knew. Probably dipped the bullets in a mixture of Quaker State 10W-40, extra virgin olive oil, and bullschidt.

I typically fire 20 rounds of TSX bullets first, with the grooves filled with JB bore paste.

I am hesitant to rise to that bait.....


Ingwe

sorry, maybe i'm missing something? i followed a break-in procedure of cleaning after ever shot for the first 5 shots, then after every 3 shot group for the first 20 and then very 5 3 shot groups there after. maybe i didn't explain something right? the gun shot 2" groups no matter what i threw at it before having gunsmith do a glass-bed/pillar-bed and free-float. obviously, something was out-of-whack, cause after that i achieved better than average groups. the only thing that changed was the gunsmithing work on my rifle. i was only trying to post that maybe the rifle has a problem with the bedding and not the barrel. in my case, it just took a bedding job to realize the barrels potential. my guess is that the pressure point wasn't helping matters any.

No, you're not missing anything--except the fact that the rifle didn't shoot any better after you "properly broke in" the barrel.

There have been discussions on the Campfire for years about the value (or lack thereof) of breaking-in barrels, and quite often the shooters who do talk of doing it "properly." I am of the opinion that break-in is wasted time, powder, bullets and effort. I just submiited an article to Rick Bin on the subject about 3 weeks ago, which will be appearing on the Campfire sometime in the next couple of months. Your post was just some more evidence to back up my data.

Thanks JB..I'd like to see the whole barrel break in B.S. put to rest....
I'm sticking with the Constable Tom Barrel Break In Procedure...

shoot it till you are done for the day...clean it.



Ingwe

I've done both; the "break in" procedure and just shooting the thing like normal (whatever that is) and have not seen a difference. If I ever get a new rifle again, I won't bother with the break in thing.

You have probably spoken to Melvin Forbes as much if not much more than I have. He told me once that "a barrel is just a tube" and is not as complicated as a lot of folks make it.

Yeah, a lot of people like to make a new barrel a mystical experience, rather than a mechanical one....

So, here's the plan for tomorrow. 1) Go quail hunting. Not sure whether to take a setter and a pointer or two setters. One thing is for certain, when I'm hunting by myself, all three ain't goin'. I will take suggestions on this and whether to take my Parker DHE 20 ga. or my SKB 28 ga. 2) After an afternoon nap, shoot a) 57.5 gr H4350 and 180 gr Hornady SP's and b) same charge 165 gr Nosler BT. If these don't get close, sayonara pressure point.

28 gauge and kill the pressure point.

Sounds like a plan to me!

The most satisfying experience I've had while bird hunting was knocking down a true WILD QUAIL double with a 28. But, you do carry a gun more than you shoot it and that Parker is mighty purdy. . .

Anyway, if this is the only vote for tomorrow, the SKB it will be.

Is the 28 ga a SxS??

Ingwe

Very valid question, I can only assume he is a man of taste by his posts so I figure it is.

Why suh, you make me blush. . .

Umm, but no. Its and O/U that I shoot dern near as well as a 12 ga.

I love SXS but they don't love me (or I don't know how to shoot them). I've had and traded a bunch. The only one that I have now was a 10th anniversary present from my wife.

An O/U for quail????


Take the Parker!

My God man, that would be like shooting Rocky Mountain Mule deer with a stainless synthetic rifle.....



Ingwe

Well, Parker it is. My "homies" (lord I do giggle like a girl over this term) here shoot Berretta or Benelli semis. I like to hunt more than kill. The girls here just like to point.

I was raised with, and shot SxS all my life....so I am biased...
But if you promise not to tell anyone, I have used a Benelli Supersport on clays a few times.....and I love it...
All tolled though, Im not a shotgun person, and by and large, am not good with one...

Ingwe

I'm afraid I'm going to have to put you on ignore. An O/U shotgun for quail, jeez.


I use this old clunker, but I do need to get a 28 or at the very least a 20.

Scott...I don't know about HS...

But I'm gonna tell you...

YOU SUCK!


Feel the love....and the envy...

Bastid...

Ingwe

There's a good story, well a story anyways, about the shotgun. Long short of it, a good gunsmith friend took pity on me and 'sold' it to me for a song.

Don't worry though, I'm about as good with a shotgun as you apparently, but I do enjoy them.

Where in the hell is the dog in this picture?

BTW, what a beautiful Scott. I can't tell from the pics, but are the barrels damascus?

Anything else Mr. OU....

They started life that way but were sleeved somewhere along the way, very well done. Best I can figure is it was made in the late 1880's

Ever notice the bad thing about pheasants, is that they are so cool looking, you want to get them all mounted...

If you get to Africa...and HS is about to...Impala are the same way...

And they kinda remind you of whitetails...live in the nastiest thickest thorn crapp and never have a hair out of place...

Ingwe

Cool, give me a minute. On the daughter's laptop. . .

That was the first time pheasant hunting, and it weren't like you see on TV. Those damn birds were flushing WILD. A good friend took me for 3 days on my trip down from Alaska.

I could have shot a GREAT 4x4 almost 30" wide mule deer in the back of the head with a load of #5's. I about stepped on that bedded bastard.

Funny you mention Impala, I've never been but always thought I could spend an entire safari just hunting them and not feel cheated.

When my Brittany was alive and we did a great deal of pheasant hunting, we would find nice whitetail bucks in the darndest places ( Duh...) she would point them, they were loathe to get out of their beds,and when they did, she would be pizzed that I didn't kill them...
Pheasants are cool

Impala are kinda fun to hunt...I whacked my best with that .303 you liked..
Another real fun one is warthogs...you'd like that...

Ingwe

Here Scott..I think youve seen this one, but maybe HS hasn't...



Ingwe

That rifle haunts me. Nifty critters they are.

Like your pheasant with the W.C. Scott...it was fun doin it "old school" with that Impala...

Ingwe

Getting ready to post a bunch of pics, but I'm not sure what I'm more envious of, that rifle or that impala!

For me its a 3 way tie. Scott's Scott Double...Inwe's .303...or the Impala. Man I'd love to live where there are pheasants again. On our farm growing up they were a damn nuisance....now ya can't find one.

Scott

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/Huntaria_Pics/WVTHAProofMeg.jpg

[img] [img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2zlWWKNV6_M/SrV4t6RyUGI/AAAAAAAAANw/YCnQuoJE7j0/s720/PA300009.JPG[/img]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2zlWWKNV6_M/R1GOQCxHdvI/AAAAAAAAABU/l2fTu_hqbEA/s1600-R/PA300006.JPG[/img] http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2zlWWKNV6_M/R1GOQCxHdvI/AAAAAAAAABU/l2fTu_hqbEA/s1600-R/PA300006.JPG[/img]

Nice.......

I'm a "dog person" so I love this stuff.....


Ingwe

I used to live near Rhodes --about 30 miles north of Saginaw--from 2001 to 2003. I used to see the occasional pheasant running along the ditches next to the beet fields. Grouse, though were everywhere. The big old dog with the pheasant you see above was made on these birds.

Me and my Britt used to hunt a few grouse...back in the day...



Ingwe

Missed one. I think I'm still pulling burrs off Chase.

Very pretty. But I'm sure I see a pump gun there. Hmm. . .

NOT MY GUN!!!


HONEST!!!!


I could never sink so low....

Ingwe

Small world HS. I live by Quanicassee...about 10 miles East of Bay City. We have a sizable farm here. Growing up in the late 60's early 70's 75 bird flushes on opening day were common. We raised Brittany's and Lab's. Living right on the Bay we had the best of waterfowling and pheasants. Fond memories....now we have more deer than we ever had pheasants and coyotes to match. Never saw either in the "bird days".

Scott

You'll really cringe at this...my hunting pard with what we usuallyhunt grouse with...a rifle..!



Ingwe

I was told it used to be like Iowa was in the 70's-90's, then farm practices changed.

Grouse are still everywhere. Don't be afraid to tackle the inner parts of Gladwin county state land.

I need to take more dead bird pics.

I think I just posted ALL my dead bird pics...

Ingwe

Nooo...check that, Ive got one of JB and Eileen in Namibia just for HS..



Three Species of Sand Grouse...

Well, I can't top that

I wonder if I should ask our outfitter if we can't spend an afternoon bird shooting?

When in Rome......

Love the duck and goose pics. I used to live in Louisiana. I was totally absorbed in wood duck hunting.

Yep, now that was a silly azzed question. . .

I've hunted ducks in about a dozen states. Loved the hunting around Memphis. The geese were from Illinois, the ducks Alaska of course.

Girlfriend with a bird from a 2004 turkey hunt, I do have LOTS of turkey pics.

Those are some great bird pics Scott! I'll have to scan some...I have some good bird shots but all pre digital age.

HS, We have a deer camp in Montmorency County and the grouse numbers there are great. When working on blinds this fall I blundered into a couple of 12 bird groups...lol. The dog just sorta looked up and asked "Why are we here, Dad?" With the logging practices in the state we do have some good grouse/woodcock shooting again.
As far as being like Iowa, I'd guess that to be true. When the limit was 5 roosters that usually took about a 200 yard walk for 2 guys when I was younger...I know Grandpa used to run his dogs for the "city boys" as he called them and it almost took precident over the farm for a couple of weeks.

Best ask for a morning...thats when Sand Grouse go to water...shoot doves and Guineas the rest of the day...if you like bird hunting, you'll go sterile in Africa...

Ingwe

And my favorite shotgun is below, a Mossberg 500 that only sees turkey duty.

Now THAT is a cool picture!


Ingwe

Beautiful birds aren't they.

Yep...thats one of those things, for some reason, I didn't think you could capture on film...
Gorgeous...

Ingwe

Nice bird. Turkey is cool too

I live near the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers. My farm is less than 2 miles from the Ohio. Our waterfowl hunting is really nice. Turkey hunting is too.

The quail here have been problematic. Last year, I could easily find 3 coveys in a day. After the big ice storm last January, I'm lucky to find one covey a day. I'll go tomorrow, but I don't expect much except a nice walk with some nice friends.

How do you capture those close ups Scott? My digital gear isn't state of the art or anything but I can't even come close...

Really ain't a high tech digital camera, a Panasonic Lumix that I've owned for about 4 years. A few of the pics above are scans, but most of my digital work is with that Panasonic or a handful of point and shoots. Lots are done with a Samsung I picked up at Walmart for $69.

I DO take a far amount of time setting up a picture and trying to get the light just right. It's all a matter of light and patience.

Did you use the macro setting?

Well, I'm both disturbed and excited by this. . .

Maybe, but likely not. I find moving back a bit and then zooming in works mo better at times.

Grin

"I DO take a far amount of time setting up a picture and trying to get the light just right. It's all a matter of light and patience."

Most likely sums up my problem...here is a pic I took to post on here the other day...and it shows my typical results...Your rifle pics look like they could shoot...mine look like a scan from a newspaper...

Namibia;IIRC
3 Species Sand Grouse
4 Species Doves
2 Species Francolins
Guineas-o-plenty!
and if you are lucky, there are two or three tiny species of quail...I'm talkin tiny...they look like big bugs...but are cool as hell to just see...

Honestly on two trips just for reference I tried to count the amount of times between when I could have shot a bird, till I could have shot another...I never counted out a full 60 seconds between opportunities...just driving around in the truck...

Ingwe

I used to have the same problem. You're trying to do too much in a single shot. Focus on what you really want the viewer to see.

I think killing a guinea and one of the little buzz-bomb quail would be about as much fun as you could have with your clothes on. . .

I shot some guineas with my .375..head shots...no kidding...

Ingwe

I love you man!

Theres enough of them running around that you can pick and choose...its really pretty sweet...We were having a tough time getting on Buffalo in Zim,so I pulled rank and declared a [bleep]-off day..."Targets of Opportunity"
So the Guineas, Baboons, and Impala took a hit that day

Ingwe

It's a JP Sauer 9X57 19" barrel...I don't really know the age. Grandpa took it in on a trade for some chickens in about 1950 so the story goes. I shot a bear and a couple of whittails with it when I was in my teens and it went to Ontario for bear a few times with relatives. I'd love to get another bear with it before I can't see the sights anymore...they are kinda fading fast...lol

We've always fed it a diet of 43 grs of 3031 with .358 Hornady RN's. I expect there are better loads than that but it shoots to the sights with it.

I could enjoy slaying Guineas, damn things.

God wouldn't have given birds heads if he didn't want us to shoot them there.

I'm trying to convince my dad that we should do the world a favor and kill a baboon. He says it looks too much like one of his drunk uncles.

Welp, y'all, its bed time for middle age/old farts to go to sleep and make a mad 6 mile dash tomorrow.

I like it, one of the x57's I don't own.

Dam you! I just changed my sig line...or I'd be using that...

Might have to file and plagiarize later....

Ingwe

Face Off!!

Ingwe

I'm sort of a X57 fan. This year was the first in about 15 that my primary rifle wasn't a 7X57. I've got those in a matching Sauer, a #1A and a 700 Rem Mountain rifle. I have an 8X57 in a sauer too. That should be a fave...I just never get to using it.

GRIN

I've probably had as much fun with 'targets' of opportunity as what I was hunting at that time.

LOL...now thats a bird pic!

Night boys, going fishing tomorrow.

Thats it for me too...going "working" tommorow...

Ingwe

Catch a bunch!

Ingwe is that a BL22 in your grouse photo. I use mine and get about 3 head wing shots a year. They are a sweet accurate little rifle. I also have a browning 22 pump from 1950 that is faster than the lever even. They used to make really good rifles when FN .
Randy

I miss a couple of days and this thing has gone 16 pages! Wow!

Ummm, how is the rifle shooting? Tried the 180TTSX's yet? I used them a couple of times in Africa with a 300 RUM and they are penetrating machines. Went end to end on a Kudu cow (leopard bait) starting in the rump and blowing a BIG hole out of the front shoulder area. I was impressed. Agree on loading them waaaayyy back. In my experinece, .050 is still too close to the lands in most cases. I did read about the long throat in your dad's rifle, I would still try the TTSX's loaded with a pretty short OAL. Does not seem like it should work, but it does. I could send you a few to try, but they are all coated in Moly. Let me know if you want me to send you a dozen or so.

Randy...that was a Marlin 39A my pard was packin in that photo... I usually use my Ruger 77/22 VBZ or a .22 handgun..though the old eyes don't get as many with the handgun anymore!

Ingwe

I can verify that this is absolutely true, and going on 22 years for me.

23 for me....


Ingwe

Howdy. Well I lived the plan today. Quail hunted for about 4 hours. It was a nice walk. No quail. Depressing in that I can't recall the last time I went to this place and didn't find at least 1 covey. I'm really afraid the ice storm last year did'em in. Anyway, the girls and I had a nice walk.

After the afternoon nap, it was back to the bench. I will say this gun is consistent. The 165 Nosler BT's and the 180 gr Hornady SP's averaged 1.5" All-in-all, it ain't that bad (I've never cared about the last quarter inch or so of a group), but it does tend to string groups. So. . .

Its all disassembled and is in my gun cradle. I'll be removing the pressure point over the next several days. While I'm at it, the very front of the floor plate is about 1/8" above flush to the wood, so, that'll get corrected too. Even if the groups don't substantially shrink, at least this should eliminate the tendency to string.

I too have a CDL 30-06 that I haven't done anything to other than lighten the trigger.

I tried IMR 4064 as Barnes recommended as the most accurate load for the 168 TSX. The 4064 in my rifle did out shoot both the 4350's, and as many suggested to me, the max load shot the best, 50grns 4064.

I'm headed back to the range tomorrow to try some increased loads 50.5, 51, 51.5, 52. I'll be looking for pressure signs and accuracy, if both of those are OK, then I'll be over the max Barnes recommended.

Their load clocked in right at 2800, so if tomorrow's load pan out, I will then clock them, if they reach 2900 and hold accuracy, that will be my load, if not I'll settle for 2800.

I know your post is more about rifle bedding, but I thought the TSX input might help you out.

Good luck.

Well, I killed the pressure point and finally had a chance to shoot it this afternoon. Group size was reduced by over 30%. YIPPEE! Better still, the groups are now ROUND. Max loads of H4350 and 165 gr NBT's averaged just over an inch and the same under 180gr Hornady SP's average 1.25". I'll give the TSX's a whirl tomorrow.

As for 4064, I have not used that powder and have none on my shelf. I know a lot of guys have used to great success. I'm curious if anyone has used RL19 in their '06's?

congratulations! it seems you found the bedding problem. rifles are much more fun when they are accurate arent they? i have used both 4064 and reloader 19 and while my results weren't nearly as good as imr 4350 yours might vary.-keith

Good news HS...you're off and running now!

Ingwe

Man, in Oklahoma we shoot quail with unplugged 12 ga Remington 1100s!

Expat

Huntaria,

It has astonished me for at least 35 years that Remington continues to put pressure points in their 700 forends, when 700's almost always shoot better without 'em.

But then again, life is full of astonishment.

Kinda like yours when I asked if I should float my M7 CDL...and you said...

" You haven't done that yet..???"


Ingwe

I believe my eyebrows even went up....

Same with the old Sako A series Hunter models. They have pressure points for no good reason.

Can you or anyone else explain ol' Elmer's love of the pressure point.? In his Gun Notes column, he once made the statement "Free floating is for the birds."

I don't recall about pressure points but he believed in full length barrel bedding. He thought it was more accurate. I can't say why.

I'll dig it out of Gun Notes (don't remember if its Vol 1 or 2). But he not only said free floating was for the birds but he did say he preferred (and I'm trying to quote from memory), some "nice up push from the stock".

I too remember Keith liking full length bedding...and Ive actually done that on two rifles, both with short Rigby-esque forends....

Hate to say it...but it worked both times!!!

Ingwe

Ingwe, I'll bet ya a beer that they bedded rifles that way because bullets were not what they are today;they probably set up weird crazy vibrations that were tamed somewhat by full length bedding.....some evidence of this is when you freel-float and glass bed an old pre 64 ,and feed it modern bullets....they shoot like match rifles...even the ones that you don't free float shoot well with modern slugs..Just a guess of course

You may very well have a point there Bob...never thought of it, but I'm sure at least jacket/core concentricity issues have been resolved over the years....especially since the days of Nosler turning bullets on a lathe....
Not to mention monometals, where concentricity is a non-issue..

ingwe

I think so!Maybe not all the barrels were as good either....but I dunno as lots of old barrels show great accuracy today with modern,concentric boolits.

True dat!

A one MOA rifle used to be a miracle, now anythiing off the rack will do that with judicious handloads...

And, as you pointed out, so will alot of the old ones....now....



Ingwe

I like old rifles.....

Full-length bedding does work, as does a forend screw like that on the pre-'64 Model 70. But PRECISE full-length bedding is really impossible on mass-produced rifles with walnut stocks, both due to machining problems and the fact that most factory walnut isn't cured long enough to be really stable. The last problem has been solved somewhat by modern stock finishes, which are much more water-resistant than the oil-based finishes on older factory rifles, but it's still there.

This is why the pre-'64 used a forend screw, and many factory rifles (especially those that originated decades ago, like the 700) still employ forend pressure points. It's a way to stabilize the barrel and still have the relatively close barrel inletting that used to be an indicator of quality, especially to older gun writers.

The big problem with such inletting, however, is variation in stock wood. A forend tip-hump will vary in how much upward pressure it produces, because each walnut blank varies in strength. It will probably also warp somewhat eventually, even the warping is only "relaxing" slightly, changing the dynamics of the forend pressure. I have even seen factory synthetic stocks with tip-humps that lose their spring after some shooting.

These days more and more factories are free-floating barrels, both in walnut and synthetic stocks. Quite often those rifles are getting the reputation of being very accurate right out of the box. Savage, Sako, Browning A-Bolts and X-Bolts--all come from the factory with free-floated barrels. So does the T/C Icon, a more recent rifle that's getting the reputation of find OTB accuracy.

Col Towsend Whelen was a firm advocate of glass bedding the back ONLY of the recoil lug and the back 1" of the barrel, the rest free floated. I have used that method for decades and it has never failed to work. My latest effort was a 270 Marlin XL that was a 1.5" out of the box, that now shoots bugholes after the Whelen treatment.

When I think of full length bedding--rightly or wrongly, I think of the zero pressure bedding used by NULA. I've talked to Melvin at great length about this and he believes its as much a means to provide stable and consistent support to the barrel.

Otherwise, I sort of think in terms of pressure points. About the only gun I've ever had that shot well with a pressure point (and I know this is an apples to oranges comparison) was a Ruger 1S in .45-70 and then I used one of the little EA Brown gizmo's. It required a fair amount of pressure to make it shoot correctly.

As for the pre 64's, I've had guys say they could tune the load by then tension on the barrel screw. Sort of like the original BOSS system, I guess.

Snowed a bunch overnight, so I may see if I can't dig out ol' Elmer's quote.

MD: Agreed, good post....Got a 7 mag and a 257 Roberts over here;plus a couple of pre 64 FW's in 270 that are all bedded full length;all are nicely accurate.The Roberts and 7 mag are "old style" O'Connor/Keith type customs with tight inletting.

But with synthetic stocks, I float em' all even light barrels like #1 contour kriegers shoot great.SC M70's in 270 and 300WSM with floated barrels rae simply very accurate as well.

Found the Elmer Keith discussion sooner than I would have thought. I know he's written about this in some of his other works, but this is close enough for the discussion at hand. This is from the September 1980 edition of Gun Notes under the heading "Walking Rifles". Walking in this case means point of impact change. Anyway, the salient quote follows:

"Free-floating barrels, however, are to my notion a sad mistake and are an excuse for poor wood and poor workmanship. Stock blanks that have not been perfectly cured can also warp and put pressure on one side or the other of a barrel and cause walking rifles. Perfectly tight-fitted forestocks with an upward pressure of seven to eleven pounds at the tip usually five the best performance. If the wood is the finer-grained, well-seasoned variety, it will not change."

Elmer also thought that the future of long-range target shooting (such as the 1000-yard Wimbledon match) lay in .338 caliber cartridges.

I first became familiar with Melvin's method of full-length bedding of barrels aboit 20 years ago, when he sent me a .300 Winchester Magnum for a year or so. It shot very well, as have all the NULA's I've fooled with since, and I've even bedded the barrels of rifles in synthetic and walnut stocks the same way.

But in general I've found that most synthetic stocks aren't as stiff as Melvin's, and one of the reasons his rifles shoot so well is the stock stiffness--and the bedding ALL the way out to the tip of the forend. Often that inch or so at the end had to be retouched, or even given a little tip-pressure, in other synthetic stocks, because they tend to "relax" after some shooting. The technique also works pretty well in laminated stocks.

In standard walnut stocks the bedding often has to be touched up from time to time, due to shifting of the wood, even with the forend channel completely epoxy-bedded and a very water-resistant finish on the rest of the stock. Free-floating usually solves that problem.

That's one reason I think most folks with walnut stocks tend to only bed the chamber portion of the barrel. At least that's what I do. I started to do this after reading a treatise by Harlan Carter (? too lazy to go dig that one out too) on how to glass bed. I've followed his instructions ever since and I've yet to be disappointed.

As for Elmer, he was from a different time. Some of his observations I think still hold true today, others, either technology or history have made irrelevant. If he had some of the bullets and powder we have today, it makes me wonder if he and JOC might have at least agreed on caliber.

As an aside, in this same 1980 Gun Notes article, he accuses Ruger of using bad barrels on #1's. He said that he and Ross Seyfried had tried a bit of everything, including using rubber washers to take up the forend pressure, and thus, the conclusion that it was bad barrels.

Actually, I don't bother bedding any of the barrel except on 98 Mausers. The reason for bedding the rear of the barrel with 98's is that the front sction screw is in the center of the recoil lug, so when it's tightened it tends to bend the action slightly unless the rear of the barrel is bedded as well. Partly this is because a 98 action isn't all that stiff, especially a military 98 with the thumb cut-out.

Wuth just about every other bolt action the front action screw is behind the recoil lug, so they work fine without bedding any of the barrel. In fact the most accurate factory rifle I've ever owned is a Remington 700 with a varmint-weight, 26" .223 barrel, and it's totally free-floated.

Well, that certainly makes sense. I'm trying to talk myself out of glass bedding this CDL anyway. Considering that it will be used in dry weather and the wood-to-metal fit on the lug and action front are just about perfect, I'm not sure I'll want to fool with it. But then again, I can never seem to leave well enough alone

If it's shooting well, I wouldn't bother!

Exactly. I've been shooting a 700 CDL for the past five seasons, with five mule deer down. Only thing I did to it was adjust the trigger, load a mess of ammo and take it hunting for mulies & coyotes.

Why bother messing with it if it's shooting well?

I probably won't mess with it. The trigger out of the box is 3.5lbs and crisp. And, since I rasped out the pressure point, its a legitimate MOA rifle with 165 gr NBT's and Speer SPBT's and 1.25 with 180 gr Hornady's. And that's with a single powder charge. Hard to tell what will happen once I really play with it. Anyway, I'm certain if Dad does his part, it will kill game if I didn't do anything but load what I've shot in it so far.

As much as I love old Elmer (I even publish his best book), he could be a bit erratic (like claiming Jack O'Connor tried to shoot him) and things have advanced a bit since he went to the big range up yonder.

hey all, not to hijack the thread, but since it has turned to bedding, i have a question. i have a pre-64 mod. 70 in 30.06. i have no plans on it being a collector piece as it is a standard model. mule deer alluded to the fact that pre-64's shoot pretty good with the foreend screw installed. i have heard from others that the first thing you should do is to remove the screw. i am considering freefloating and glass-bedding the action. any thoughts on which way you would go? the rifle is a strong 1 1/4 MOA shooter as is, which doesn't bother me. my concern is the older wood and possible temp changes when hunting in various elements. -keith

I do not own a pre 64, but I've shot a few and have helped several guys who do own one. YMMV. Anyway, here's how I do it.

Use the barrel screw tension, in 1/4 turn increments, to adjust to your loads. Leave the action screw, barrel screw and tang screw loose. Tighten the action screw and tang screw until they are just barely, but evenly snug. Bounce the butt of the gun to seat the lug. Tighten the action screw until it is really snug, then tighten the tang screw until it stops without any real force. Tighten the action screw until it stops with some effort. Take the tang screw up until it just barely stops. Place your fingers on the intersection of forend and barrel and take the action screw up again until you feel any movement, then stop. Now, take the barrel screw up until it barely stops. Use the barrel screw to tune your load in. I'd suggest 1/4 turns one way or the other until you feel any movement in the forend/barrel interface. Remember, the action screw will act as a "hump" to the barrel if you tighten the barrel screw too much.

A stupid question...... I have a CDL in 7-08 and it shoots like a champ with the pressure point so far. Any worries that it will change its' habits. Should I take out the pressure point as preventive medicine or go by " if it aint broke don't fix it"?

" If it aint broke"...


Ive only had to remove the pressure point from one Remingon thus far...the rest worked well out of the box....

Ingwe

If you don't plan on using it on a high dollar hunt where its terminally wet, then, like ingwe, I wouldn't bother. Unless, you just like to tinker. Nothing wrong with tinkering.

With my pet load consisting of W760 and Speer 145 gr BTSP's my first three shot group I fired with it I thought I missed the paper twice until I looked really close at the group. I couldn't believe how well it shot until I confirmed it with another three shot string. Same results, one tiny group about the size a 30-06 would make with one shot. I was pleased to say the least. All I have done is adjusted the trigger and keep loading the same recipe. That bullet is fantastic on whitetail by the way, they usually drop in their tracks and leaves a beautiful exit hole in case they do move. I did have one make two bounds and collapse but it looked like someone threw a couple of gallons of red paint on the ground.

I bought a M700 CDL in 30-06 3 months ago and have been fighting it ever since. I tried it as it came out of the box and got 2" to 3" groups. I reduced the trigger pull to 3 lbs, it came from the factory set at 5 lbs.
I tried shimming the action to temporarily float the barrel as JB suggests in several of his articles and was rewarded with the same 2" to 3" groups.
Since all of that I have acraglassed the front of the receiver and had evened out the pressure point with some pressure added.
Still running 2" to 3" groups.
After re-thinking all of this I have removed the tip hump and opened the channel so that a dollar bill folded twice will slide freely down the channel to avoid the barrel tapping the forend tip, again per JB's recommendations in print.
I've had good results with free floated M700's before and two Weatherby Vanguards that shot poorly until I free floated the barrels and glassed the front of the action and just ahead of the recoil lug.
I worked primarily with H4350 and 180gr bullets and ran a batch of groups with several 165gr and H4350 with similarly poor results.
With the pressure point I am getting 2 holes of a 3 shot group within 1.5" and the other off horizontally and low for the most part.
At this point I am setting H4350 aside for IMR4350 and RE19 when I start working with 165 and 180's again.

I loaded up some 168 AMAX's and 168 SMK with Varget to see what they will do because I have yet to find a rifle that will not shoot well to very well when using Varget.

I check cases before and after seating for concentricity.

If floating the barrel does not settle the rifle down I don't know what my next move will be.I like the rifle and it was gift to myself after reaching two milestones in my life last year and I wanted to own at least one nice 30-06.

I have a feeling that if I contact remington and tell them the gun will only average 2" groups they will tell me that is within their acceptable range.

I guess I will keep trying.

It sounds like you know what you're doing, so please forgive me if I state the obvious for additional things to check.

Is there a bind anywhere when you lift the action from the stock? Is the action bottom riding level, not just at the front, but on the back and sides too?

When you take up the action screws, grasp the intersection of the forend and barrel. As you tighten the screws, does if feel like your barrel goes over a hump as its tightened, or does it come to a dead stop?

One thing I noted on my dad's rifle was that the floor plate didn't quite set level and I could also feel it bind as I took up the screws. A small wood rasp and a stainless washer took care of this issue.

Have you swapped scopes or know the current scope to work on another rifle?

Finally, you might want to try faster powders. I have another .30-06 that will only shoot with RL 15. Another poster here claims 4064 is the magic stuff for his.

As for 2" groups, I know we all expect our rifles to do better--and, they should. But I'll take a 2" gun that didn't wander zero and is utterly reliable to a fussy 0.5" gun on game anyday.

Nailbender59,

There are a couple of other things you might want to check before fiddling with the bedding some more:

1) Look closely at the back of the locking lugs on the bolt to make sure they're both contacting the locking recesses. The lugs on non-stainless 700's are normally blued, so you can see the amount of contact as wear on the blueing. If they're no both making at least 30% contact then this may be the problem. Over the decades I have purchased two new 700's where one locking lug wasn't making any contact at all!

2) Check out the crown of the barrel. Sometimes this is imperfect. I have touched up the factory crown on a number of barrels with a Brownells tool and often seen a great improvement.

\

How did you deal with this? Did you lap the lugs in, or have Remington fix this? I'll tell you that on dad's gun, one lug is doing most (but not quite all) the work. Its probably less than 30%.

I lapped them in, but sometimes the one lug that's seating has to be lapped so much that excessive headspace can result. The only way to tell is with a headspace no-go gauge. If this occurs then the barrel has to be set back.

Since you're getting some contact with both lugs, lapping the lugs proably wouldn't result in excess headspace.

In the Fall of 2008, I bought my oldest daughter a new Rem 700 CDL SF Limited in 260 Rem. Before even firing it, I took it to my 'smith and had him touch up the crown, glass/pillar bed the action, free float the trigger and tune the trigger to 2-1/2 lbs. Through out last winter I did some judicious load devlopment and it really paid off with no less than 15 different loads that run under MOA and several under 1/2 MOA. I liked the rifle so much and before even getting it back from my 'smith I ordered another one. The second one is not near as accurate, as it came from the factory. Later, I tuned the trigger and free floated it myself and before I could really get into load devlopment to see if it would equal it's twin, I sold it to finance another project.

What it proved to me was having the 'smith touch up a few important items really paid off. Otherwise, IMHO, it's a crap shoot.

Alan

Or you can buy a Savage.

Well, here's an update. When I answered, I had looked and thought I could see where a bit of blue had worn on one lug. On closer inspection, I wasn't so sure, so I wiped a pretty big dab of gun grease on the suspect lug. It wasn't disturbed. Best I could tell there's several mils of play. So, I call Big Green and told them what I did. They told me to send it in. We'll see.

Huntaria Setters, the action sits in the stock well. I can loosen either the front or rear action screw and not feel any noticable change in the barrel/stock relation at the front of the forend. I have had actions teeter totter back and forth as either screw was taken up in other rifles, but not this one. My floor plate fits without binding.
Thanks for the suggestions, I am always open to things I may have missed.
I am trying faster powders in Varget and a batch with IMR4064 as well.
The first scope on it was a new VX3 1.75X6 with the heavy duplex.I was going to have to use entirely different targets to be able use that scope for load testing so I bought a new VX3 2.5X8(which was my original first choice for this rifle) with the standard duplex. Both were mounted in Talley lightweights, not farmer tightened. I cannot tell I even mounted the first VX3.
I have a proven VXII 3x9 that I could put on it to try and eliminate the scope question as it had crossed my mind. The other thing I have not done is check the present scope for parallax(shame on me).



Mule Deer, I dug out my prussian blue and cleaned the lug recess's and lugs and with a fired in this rifle case I checked my contact. I rubbed off some of the stuff on one lug, but not much on the other. When I look at both lugs I can see a difference where the blue is worn but not gone on the back of the lugs. I'm not convinced I have a lug contact problem yet, but have no doubt it causes problems as you say.
I have read your articles on accuracy and read your comments about lug contact problems.
What do you use for lapping compound? I have valve grinding compound that is not very aggressive. There seems to be a burr in one of the receiver lug recess's because I see a definite line on one lug that is worn shiny.
Can you see with the eye if the crown is off or do you go ahead and use your crowning tool and see how it makes contact?

So far of the rifles I have owned or own I have yet to get my butt kicked by one and eventually getting it to shoot well.Suppose there has to be first for everything.

If I can get it to average less than 1.5" that will be good enough. If it was an honest 2" rifle I could even live with that. Problem is it wants to be an honest 2.5" to 3" rifle now.

I have options yet, just takes time.

Thanks for the help.

Lee

Lee,

I use some lapping compound I got from Brownells years ago. Don't remember the grit size offhand but could find it for you if you want to know.

Aside from two Rem. 700's, I have owned some other rifles that only had one locking lug contacting inside the action--which is why it's one of the things I check out pretty quickly if a new rifle doesn't shoot all that well.

John,
thanks for the info. No need to hunt up the grit size. I can look at Brownells site and figure it out.


Lee