Hello CampFire,I live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and proud I do!I would say its safe to say Rick & Larry are proud Americas to! Here in the USA when we have a big issue we take a VOTE. I know this is Rick's forum and he has the final say! Lets just show them how we feel on the issue at hand. Should we bring Big Stick back to the CampFire?
I vote YES..

Things have a way of working themselves out, if folks let 'em.

I vote: let 'em.

It ain't a democracy..........

This is a great place, but it ain't a democracy.

FWIW, that's not meant as a burn.

nope, this board is an autocracy.

Well said....

This is not only Rick's website (and not a democracy), but his business, and ultimately his Public Image. With the 'net what it is, and with search engines as efficient as they are, the things that happen here can have long term, far-reaching consequences.

Without Stick it feels like Campfire Lite now, and I miss him as much as most others do. But to let him come back under that moniker is bad on several levels. I DO hope he can quietly slip back at some point however........

We are all grownups,the rules are clear,and we have to live by them.I will miss the Stick,but NO ONE is above the law,popular or not.My 2 cents,Monashee

One man is not bigger than the whole, not to mention that the forum is not his domain...If he had skin in the game by providing funding for its upkeep and maintenence it MIGHT be a different story, but that is all conjecture, for he does not.

Attitude plays an important part in anyone's participation on a forum like this one and when that attitude overrides common courtesy and respect, which his did on many occasions, it calls for action on the part of the owner of the forum...that action was taken, I am sure, only after much thought and deliberation.

When I was a very new member of this forum, I was the recipient of his acidic tongue, rude behavior, and know it all attitude, and I for one do not mourn his loss. You reap what you sow...some will miss him and some will not, but in the end it is noones decision but Ricks, regardless of what this or any other poll indicates.

Most socialist thing I ever heard, Walk into a mans place of business and tell him there needs to be a vote on how he runs it.

You sure you are from the U.S.?

lewis

Ricks made his call and i dont expect him to change his mind.........cant imagine that Stick would come back under any conditions but his own.........i might have to think less of him if he did

This entire sandbox belongs to Rick. The sandbox is also a part of how Rick derives his livelihood. BS put the ability of Rick to derive his livelihood from his investment here in dire jeopardy by making some of the most pungent politically incorrect statements you can make in this day and age. What you are in effect advocating is putting Rick and his family at risk to satisfy your wants.

You inappropriate attempt to garner support for this is IMHO disrespectful of Rick�he is the �Hanging Judge� here so to speak and the sentence was carried out without prejudice and I am sure not without warning. You can pizz and moan all you want to but to Rick this is also a business endeavor and if you don�t like it then go invest the money yourself and start you own board where I can assure you would not flourish as this one has. Rick has a very light hand and to incur his wrath one must commit the most egregious of offenses in the sandbox we all play in!

Rant Off!

It pleases me that Rick has the freedom of choice to do what he wants.

We can all miss Stick, but if you don't like the board you are free to leave, just as Rick is free to ban anyone he desires. His choices can affect the board quality and longevity, but thats his choice.
Jeff

I vote that Walmart give away stuff free...
This board is a benevolent autocracy. Get used to it.

Campfire of the People's Republic (CPR) :-)

Well, the alpha male of the AK group is gone. Some people just gotta pizz on the electric fence more than once to get things figured out I guess.

Too bad that with the knowledge, the napoleonic ego couldn't be reigned in just a bit. Got tired of seeing every thread where someone chose not to do things the stick way or use stick approved equipment degenerate into some kind of teenage pissin' match. Talk about self defeating. The knowledge may be missed, but the rest of the crap certainly won't.

No worries for ya' gents, I'm sure he'll return after a spell in the corner.

Lets don't........(remainder of post deleted prior to posting)

DaveR,

Well put.

Rick Bin had a situation arise, which required him to make a decision. He made his decision. And, I support his decision 100%.
Stick ain't coming back!!!!!

Don

All Y'all need to chill. He's already back.................

I say goodbye Stick!

Just leave it alone!

GB

There's a place that's mostly unmoderated. It's called Usenet. Spend a little time there and tell me it's better than what I would call the least moderated fishing/hunting/shooting /outdoors HTML place here around the fire.

Rick gets to run it as he sees fit. I suspect he solicits some who's judgement he trusts before he makes a decision and he/they do a dang fine job of it. I also suspect that anyone who's been banned has recieved more than one warning that they're approaching the do-not-pass line before they're axed and they have made their choice by crossing that line after a warning.

+ 1000000

Yea, leave it alone. Every time some one voiced an opinion differnt than his. A whole group of his admirers decended on that poster like he had tugged on superman's cape.

One person doesn't know all on this forum, and compared to a lot of other forums this one has kept it's decorum for along time.

Some one has to be a real butt head for Rick to throw them off. I know it was hard for Rick, but I congratulate him for doing so.

I will back Rick's play 100%. As a member of this site since 01, I have not seen more than a handful of people banned from here. Rick is NOT quick to pull the trigger even if he gets preassure from the members. He lets us all play and fight and get along way and not get along more than any other site I know. We all must trust in the decision the OWNER of this site has made and move on. Whether we like him or not, I know we are all going to miss Stick in one way or another. However the choice was made by both Stick and Rick. Stick dug his grave and Rick sealed it. There is a time when we all need to draw the line and when we need to check ourselves. Some do a good job some don't.

I vote: Support Rick in his Decision and move on. I will also say this is between Rick and Stick, not Rick, Sitck and the Members. We need to butt out and let the administrator and Moderators and Stick do their thing.

Respectfully,
Kique

Lewis--++10

Amen!!!

If I crossed the line on my post, I didnt mean to! I think the CampFire is great and Rick is the best man for the job! I just hate change..RL..

Life is all about change...learn to deal with it.

I gotta say that you did cross the line.
The decision has been made, and now it's time to move on.
Keeping this subject alive serves no one....

Don

Kique,

Right on. And, very well said.

Don

I only just realized that BS had been banned. I thought Rick had just shut down the offending thread.
That said BS will not be missed by me. Seldom could you understand what he was trying to say. Had reached the point where I seldom ever read anything by him. It was only because the offending thread went on so long that I finally read a couple of pages. At that time I spoke my opinion to Rick in a message to the moderator.
In my opinion the correct action was taken.

The Campfire has spoken, and I made my bed know I have to lie in it ..RL..

Mommy, mommy, help!........Wuss.

I knew someone would start something like this! Being a proud American, Freedom of Speech, Democracy...they have $hit to do with Ricks business decisions. This is a Ricktatorship. And as long as he runs it the way he has...Im hangin' around...Stick or no Stick.

Congratulations on your most pussified move..

Geeezus, welcome to grade school all over again.....

In my house growing up, unless the tattle-taler was tattling about something someone was doing that was unsafe, the tattler got punished too...my parents, and especially my mother detest tattlers...I do too.

Tellin' on people is grade school chit in my book.....If you don't like what's bein' said, don't read it.......

What are you going to do, tell on me?? Give me a break....

You could always consider a 90 day "Cooling off period".

ummm ? Could someone direct me to what happened with stick? I missed it . Thanks

I believe he called a spade a spade.....


....or something along those lines.....



https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...owflat/Number/1224763/page/8#Post1224763

Since when did PC have anything to do with anything?

Stick was being Stick,said some alleged offensive things in a post,Rick warned him,he didn't heed the warning,that about sums it up.

WTF are you talkin' about? Follow along.....

To those of you who think my commenting to the webmaster was a "pussy" move I hope you can visualize my upraised middle finger!
My comments were made openly to the webmaster and available to anyone who cared to read them.
Some recent comments I have now read seem to say that BS (and that seems like a fitting title) was much different in the early years. Maybe, I've only been around about 2 years and in that entire time BS has been unimpressive.
It is clear in the latter years he was egotistical, sarcastic and racist, among other things. It was for all of those reasons I seldom read him anymore.
Why any of us is wasting more space on BS is beyond my understanding.

To 280 Rem - I must have punched the wrong button. My preceding comments were directed at 2MuchGun and not yourself. Sorry.

Amen! This reminds me of my students getting together and deciding that there won't be any final exam. Horse feathers. As long as it's MY classroom and I'M the teacher, I decide what's what. My classroom isn't a democracy, and neither is this board.

I support Rick 1000%.

Penny

Hook....

If you are so concerned with wasting space, why comment? You were called out because you made the comment that you tattled on Stick in a message to the moderator. That implies to me that you sent a PM. So I (as well as several others)called you a wuss. If the comments were made in open forum, than I will retract my wuss. If made via PM, let me add, Pansy!

Fish on...

If you don't understand why anyone is wasting time still talking about Stick, then why are you doing it? Believe me when I tell you, I'm not alone in thinkin' cryin' to Rick like a little girl was a pussified move.......

I remember when he first started posting with us on Shooter's. I'd like to have the old Stick back, the way he was a couple years ago--before his posts degenerated into the crap we have seen lately.

I agree. I love banter and wit but when the dust settles, I'd like to have a site that I can visit without looking over my shoulder. You can vote how to run my house but in my living room, I wouldn't bank on your return on investment....

Do you honestly think Rick hasn't been aware of what Stick had been doing for some time, and that if 1OntarioJim hadn't brought it up it would have gone unnoticed?

BINGO!!

Thats ok...I didn't call it a "pussy" move...but I do disagree with what you did, and can only say I wouldn't have done the same thing. Openly or by PM. I know which posters I like to read, and which I don't. And here's the bigger issue with me..."being offended". So what? And Why? If a poster wants to use words like "chink" or "n***er" or "coonass" etc...first off Im not in any of those groups that those words are directed at...so hearing them really doesn't offend me. Sometimes, depending on their context, they indicate the user is not very bright, but not always. Why am I supposed to be offended at the use of the word "chink"? Im not Asian! I don't subscribe to the PC BS that Im just as racist as the one using those words if I fail to be offended at hearing them. They're words...period. I get offended at things directed at me or mine. If someone calls my wife a whore in public...that will offend me. If someone tells a racial joke at a party I don't make a scene to let everyone know Im PC. JMO, YMMV. I said it in the other thread...I wish he hadn't been banned, but its Rick's site and I agree with any man's decisions about his own business. Or, like the use of the racial slurs...I wouldn't have banned him like I wouldn't use those words...but his being banned is really neither here nor there to me either...it just is.

I personally don't care if I ever hear from Stick again...kind of a smart A$$$$$$$ I think.

280Rem, I can certainly understand your thinking but I have a question for you and this is only a question, not trying to be a dick or anything. You said if someone called your wife a whore in public you would get offended, which I would too, but what if someone on here called your wife a whore....would that offend you? Words are words, rather they are written or spoken, they are still words so thats why I ask.

I said I would leave this alone...but...

Somewhere here in the US there is a Mother, Father, Son or Daughter, Wife or Husband who is going to get a visit from someone in Uniform who is going to knock on their door and say something like "We are sorry to inform you....."

REALLY in the grand scheam of things...anything and everthing that is said and done on this site means very little. At best it is only entertainment.

Just let it go.

GB

I explained it. I didn't say words can't hurt or offend, but for me to personally be offended, they have to be directed at me or mine personally. If someone called my wife a whore, and did it within my earshot, first I'd assume they were looking for a fight anyway, and second I have a moral obligation to defend my wife's honor.

I don't use the "N" word publicly for many reasons, though I'd be lying if I said it had never crossed my lips. But living in Alabama, I hear it often and it doesn't offend me to the point of calling someone down for merely using it. Now, I work with and have some black friends...if someone directed that word at one of them personally, then I would take offense. The mere hearing or reading of the word is not offensive to me.

Not directed at me but since I have posted basically the same things that 2MG I will answer.

I have no problem with what Mr Bin did. He did what he felt he needed to do for whatever reason, this is his house, he can choose to do whatever he wants and I am fine with that. If it upsets me, I will just go elsewhere.

I think someone that will go running to Mommy (in this case the moderator or Mr Bin, no offense meant to those parties) to tattle on someone is a coward. I try not to say anything on this site (or anywhere for that matter) that I wouldn't say to someone face to face. Not even saying something in ooen forum, but tattling behind the scenes is the true mark of a coward, nothing more, nothing less.

I read much more than I post, never got into an argument with Big Stick. He is a wealth of information and humor. Lately his posts have been more argumentive, but I'd still be happy to shoot the bull with him in person.

Because of him I'll never own a plastic stocked Savage 30-06 with a Tasco scope in Redfield mounts. He has good taste in gear and lets you know his opinions, I just wish he spent less time fishing and more time showing pics of rifles and hunting.

Rick has the right to ban whoever he chooses, I'm sure he misses him as well, but tough decisions have to be made to protect his business.

In time someone will step up and questions will be directed to them about rifle choices, as long as they suggest Mickey stocks, 7mm/08, 25/284, 223AI, Leopold we'll be fine. Something will be missing to those of us who have been here a while, but new folks will never know.
Dan

Rick's call and from my side of the fence an good one.

Rick's place, Rick's rules. That simple.

This is a business. Advertiser bucks keep it going, not the members. Without them, this is a blank screen.

What draws these adds is the number of members and viewers on this site. Hanging onto those who don't play by the rules drives off members and visitors, resulting in less add bucks, and eventually, that blank screen.

Stick had tons of knowledge, but also tons of attitude. I found many of his post to be a little over the line, and a few WAY over it. Hate to see it end like this, but it's been coming.

I've been around here since the git-go, moving in with the crowd when shooters went south. I've seen alot of folks deserving to get the boot. Rick has always been slow to pull the trigger, even having put it to a vote after one guy crossed the line in spades. (Remember "Infideofone"?)

I'd bet dollars to donuts Stick was warned repeatedly, and, being Stick, ignored them.

I feel that I know Rick, though I've never met him other than through this board. Rick is a stand-up guy in my book, and has my full support.

Let this ugliness die.
7mm

I have to think Stick is having trouble finishing lunch from laughing so hard at all the undies getting bundled here.

If he comes back - that's great. But, if he does not, good chance life will go on.

=================================================================
There is such wisdom in those words! Gentlemen work things out. I'm sure and hopeful THOSE TWO gentlemen will resolve their differences in appropiate fashion and time. Emphasis being on THOSE TWO!

What Stick thinks isn't the issue. The issue is the personality of the Campfire. Will it be a place of civil discourse where knowledge can be shared, or will it be a place of hostility where every disagreement ends in insulting and name calling?

Am I the only one seeing the "Lord of the Flies" analogy?

Just got home from work.

I see that there's another episode of "The Banning of Big Stick" playing.

Yep- it's a rerun though... series got cancelled. Hopefully the network will come up with something new...

I agree.

Exactly.

Larry loved baiting people. Larry either wanted to get his nick suspended, or was baited into doing it. I kind of hope it was the latter, as the irony would be wonderful. I bet Larry would laugh at it too.

But any way you cut it, Larry isn't here because Larry doesn't want to be here. He could have backed off on pushing peoples buttons, or he could re-register a new nick and be back here in a heartbeat. Even blocking IP's won't work, as there are plenty of free email accounts and proxy servers out there.

I did send Rick a PM, asking Rick to talk to Larry about his race-baiting. I never mentioneded a ban. I also mentioned that I believed that Larry was under the impression that he was just "messing around". I let Larry know the race-baiting wasn't appreciated publicly a full day before I sent my message to Rick. By that time Larry had gone full tilt.

My wife is a "chink". My son is "half-chink". A lot of my good friends and co-workers are "chinks". Saying "chinks aint people" and continuing to mock all Asians doesn't fly with me. It's not about Political Correctness, it's about decency. For the same reason, I won't call a man's wife a whore, even if she was a lead earner at the Bunny Ranch.

My take on it is that Larry wanted to play the lead role in his version of Vanishing Point. Who here was really surprised that the remake used the same ending as the original?

Regards,
Scott

Rick, one more time...WELL DONE!

I think I'd prefer a happy medium. The term "civil discourse" makes it sound like a backgammon club for old blue haired ladies.

On the other hand,... an occasional good old squabble is a valuable purge for the soul,.... providing it doesn't involve duct tapin' ya kids heads all up.

I would LOVE to see this subject come to an end...

" The Moving Hand Writes
And having writ, moves on"

Rudyard Kipling

You're in Michigan,.... it's February,... 'da hell else ya got ta do?

End this train wreck....
Post mortems suck..

Don

Out of all the threads that have been burning the board over the last two days, the thing that surprises me the most is that here in 2007 some debate if it is thin skinned for a black to be offended being called a [bleep], of Chinese a chink.

It doesn't offend me, so I can just ignore it, and the chink should just ignore it too, hit the ignore button... or be a little tougher, be a man?

I've been called wop and dago many times and it doesn't bother me a bit...but then again it never seems to come with the same disdain as I hear with some other slurs, rather it usually comes with a smile.

This should have never become a debate about who is more popular, or who contributed more to the forum, that has nothing to do with it.

It is all about respect for others, members and moderators, alike. I don't know if that makes me old fashion or PC, just the way I was raised I guess.

I hope Rick and Stick can come to an agreement down the road, but I think pride is gonna be a problem.

"Civil" refers only to the manner in which the persons in question treat each other. It is very possible to have a "civil discourse" where one party absolutely destroys the other party's argument without belittling anyone in the process.

Where IS the ignore button, BTW? I am once again seeing messages from someone I had on my ignore list almost from the moment I joined the Campfire. And I realize how nice that was... and would like to do it again. Can anyone help?

Penny

YESSSSS!!! I figured it out! Oh happy day... For a minute I thought the ignore button had gone away.

Penny

I'd like to know that too<bet we had the same poster on ignore Penny> It was no big deal to clean out all the PMs....but this is serious

Click on the poster's name in the avatar area to the left of the message. Then click on "View profile." On the poster's profile page there is a button that says "ignore this user."

Happy to be of help.

Penny

I can't use the 'ignore' function....it feels, to me, like telling the other person they actually managed to crawl under your skin....but I can see why some people opt to use it.

That said, I HAVE been tempted!!

Where has Mr. B been?? Haven't seen him around...

HoundGirl

To no one in particular
Why do the people who want this line of discussion to end or are bothered by reading it, keep chiming in or reading.
To my amazement, I find myself almost in agreement with Bristoe!!!
Is this a wacky world or what.
t

It really doesn't matter, as all 3 of you are pussies and culls in my opinion.

WTF?

..........similar effect of watching a train wreck, I guess.........

Can't blame a guy who settled for a chink to be pissed about it, let alone having to read about it on the 'net...

At least you fessed up to crying about your situation to Rick, kudos to addmitting to being a pussy.

My ears are burning, could say more but probably don't need to...

That's twice that you have posed with the innocent look, it's just a mirror dude, you are what you are...

And that would be what? You're [bleep]' nuts. Hope you're drunk and not really this stupid.......

wow been lurking, but accraholic's last contributiion kinda' sealed the deal for me...got no room for that [bleep] in cyber world or the "real" world. what an (theres an edit here folks) IGNORANT, [bleep] AZZHOLE.....

Please control your language, this is a family site you know, changing a few letters might confuse the 'puter but kids are smarter than you think...

no, thank knoe (tip another one back)....signing off


PS. I spelled IGNORANT CORRECTLY?????????????????

Can't blame a guy who settled for a chink to be pissed about it, let alone having to read about it on the 'net...


I wanna be like Mike?

There just isn't any limit to your boorish incivility....is there?

Hopefully you caught Rick's eye also.

GV

Apparently Accraholic has had a few too many and is lookin' to go out in a blaze of glory. Hope he doesn't do it. Luckily, he's on his way to bed now. He had me confused with someone else...

Did not, just seeing right through your thin veil, you know it's true.

Please go pass out now, as your ability to think has escaped you.....

I have never answered any of your posts before because I find you to be abrasive and rude. Right now I find you a racist bigot. By all rights you, too, should be gone. If I were to vote right now, I would give you the boot as well. You and Stick deserve to be in bed together.

I wish the moderator was home so he could actually do something worthwhile, other than state the obvious.

M

Right now I am, care to guess how came to be this way ?

Kuteney has it figured right.

T.R also had it figured right.

I have made some mean spirited posts tonight because I am pissed.

Anybody who got too worked up over anything they read was looking for someone to be worked up at before they clicked anything here.

accraholic,

You seem to be digging your own grave as I find you just as borish as Stick. I do hope the door doesn't hurt to much on your way out.

Maybe Houndgirl will round this one out ?

Methinks folks are gonna love swinging the "boot" sword.

If "they" ain't like me, kick'em out, yep a fine and dandy mess.

Who's next after Tad?????????

That would be the only way you'd get a 3some

Steely--I'm thinkin' 375 Matt split too. This [bleep] is startin' to suck more and more......

The first one included myself and a couple of nice Native girls in Hoonah, the best one included myself and a couple of hookers in Seattle..........details available, but this is a family site you know...


I wonder how many kids reading your post needed to hear about 3 somes...

Swinging the boot sword. Shheit were having too much fun just watching you dumbshites fall on your own swords. What a bunch of [bleep] drama queens.

Grow a set.

LAFFIN HERE

Heh. So you wanna bring me into this, eh?

Let me give you a heads up. Learned a while back not to take what I read here too seriously....moved on and learned a chit ton.

I'll continue to glean what I can from this site, and let the rest roll right off my friggin back....recommend that we all do just the same.

Count me out of the drama....but the entertainment is worth it's lb. in gold.

Unless I am attacked, directly, count me out of the cock fight.

HoundGirl

Sounds good to me,theres a lot to be said in favor of civil hostility.

+1 I vote HG smartest member!

It's not so much that the person has gotten under my skin. It's just that if some idiot drunk began spewing stupidity wherever I was out in the real world, I'd simply turn around and leave. I choose not to waste what little time I have here with losers, because 99% of those here are great folks and I want to spend what time I have at the Campfire with them.


This is week 2 of a new job for Barak. In typical Barak fashion, he has hit the ground running, so he's busy... and I seem to remember him telling me that no one is allowed internet access from his workplace. That in itself keeps him off the Campfire on Monday-Friday from 8:30 am until he gets home around 6:00 or 6:30. And at least for now, his laptop PC has come home with him and he has spent a couple of hours every night continuing to work. But I'm sure that he will show up at some point. I suspect that once someone gets a good political discussion going, he'll be there.

How're you doing?

Penny

Wow, refresh my memory on what I have said to you to rate that?

Just because I have a great wife doesn't mean you have to be a hater. Work on your own life, and maybe you'll be happy too.

As for you calling me a pussy, well from some folks that would hurt. From some people, I'd consider it a compliment. But from you, well it don't mean nuthin'.

Regards,
Scott

P.S. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I feel it's a compliment. Maybe I'll make "accraholic thinks I'm a pusssy" my sig.

In response to accraholic



I'm sure most others around here, including myself, echo your sentiment.



Roads

he's going back on ignore for me.
his comment about scott's wife WAY crosses the line ...

This thread should have died. Now the whole thing has started again.

Yes.

Unfortunately, they did. That was his intent.

It's a damned shame.

Rick

_______________________________

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe;
every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine:
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were,
as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were;
any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

John Donne

It's deja-vu all over again.....

Please, Let's not give them the dramatic stage they seek...

I'm calling cabin fever....think I'll go cast some bullets for my soon to arrive custom .358 winchester that I'm getting thanks to the free classifieds here on the campfire. The rifle I'm buying without worry based on the reputation of a man I have only "met" here on the campfire. Thanks for what you do Rick.

Oops, a belated thank you to Art too.... Are you Alaskans getting much daylight back up there yet???

Thanks for taking that 2ndwind, saved me the anguish, but I am still on the search!

sactoller

We're on the upward side of 7 hours, adding a little over 5 minutes per day. Sure is nice to get home from work and it's still daylight...

Just curious why such comments would account for other folks not to be banned???

Whats good for the stump is good for the toothpick.

458.

You missed the meaning in my post, I believe, unless I missed yours.

Rick

It's hard to keep up with all the BS, no pun intended. Did ah also get the plug yanked? That was my question.

Geeze.........
Leader runs off a cliff, how many more are gonna follow.

Thanks for asking!

February7,2007 Rise........ Set
Actual Time 9:06 AM AKST 5:32 PM AKST

Length of Day 8h 25m
Tomorrow will be 5m 21s longer.

The daylight "landmarks" for me are Thanksgiving and Feb 1. I really notice the shorter days and loss of daylight after T day and notice the increase after Feb 1, when we're over 8 hours and rate of gain is near max.

Accraholic just dropped a bomb on himself, we really need to tone down on some of the stuff that goes up here. It is starting to get outrageous. I can 't even let my daughter look at some of the stuff on this board anymore. Yeah, I have pushed the line on occasion, but mine are alost always satire, and if it isn't recieved well, I will be glad to take it down and apologize. C'mon, think before you post, is it something you would say or show in front of your kids? Les

Unfortunately for some here, and more unfortunately for their kids -

yes.

Hence why they are no longer here. Les

Did you guys not see the redirection above?

How much snow do you have Ironbender, it is about 50 degrees here and we were in the 60's yesterday. Gotta love it. Les

Okay, I removed the temporal reference as it redirected thought away from my actual point which was much larger in context, and I really have no desire to participate in the general teeth gnashing and hair pulling of late.

BTW, we've had temps in the 50's the last couple of days so the snow in front of my house is all gone. DMB - I'm ready for that free shipment! (inside joke ;))

Snow? Heh!
It was 50 stinkin' degrees last week! Pure misery. It's H-E-double hockey sticks for the mooses postholing through the Kenai Concrete. I've been feeding horses in sneakers (me, not them)! The ONLY good thing about the heat wave is that it did not rain!!!

May get some fresh tonight. Sure hope so.

Sister told me the snow up in Anchorage is higher than she is tall. I find that funnier than hell. Les

Dang,
I have been at work for 2 weeks is there any left on the ground? I am guessing not, since tradio has had a lot of snowmachines as of late.

We still have it on the ground, but we lost LOTS.

Les-Anc often get more of the "wrap-around" effect from lows in PWS then we do here in the Kenai Mts. precipitation shadow.

Butthole deep to a tall giraffe??????

Thats just Lake Effect, that doesn't count as real snow. Les

What has happened here is a tragedy. No winners.

I like 'Stick. He obviously lives a life of adveture, with passion, and zeal. I always read his posts pertaining to the rifle, and hunting, with interest. A lot of experience-based info/knowledge that he generously shares. Have sought his opinions/insights more than once, and he always was helpful with good candid advice based on his vast experience.

On the other hand, he left Rick with little choice. Stick repeatedly demonstrated total disregard for the rules of this forum, and the unwritten rules of behavior and decorum. He seems to thrive on the battle of wills/wit, and it was never over until he won.



'Stick,

Hope to see you back here in time.

So much for the refreshing diversion!!

Your gonna get a laught outta this..................

There was talk of declaring some places in the U.P. DISASTER AREAS. Lack of snow was keeping the sledders away. I didn't know cheeseheads made good demoncraps.

What do you expect from a jarhead.....................

Come on Shane, play along!!!!!!

Now that there is funny AJ, what a bunch of Maroons. Les

Nah, I'm still feeling pretty darn diverted by, "Butthole deep to a tall giraffe?????? " That's an image that will come back to me now every time I see a snow bank... Thanks alot for that one 300 Mag

Nah, I'm still feeling pretty darn diverted by, "Butthole deep to a tall giraffe?????? " That's an image that will come back to me now every time I see a snow bank... Thanks alot for that one 300 Mag

A double tap...I've lost patience with the puter.... how many days is it till Spring???

I don't think this is a voting issue myself.

Can't come soon enough. Kid asked me today if I plan on hitting the 600 yard range like we did last year. Methinks he's a glutton for punishment.

Get him a 500 Nitro express. Les

He got a stinger on his shoulder shooting a 7-08 mountain rifle once. Dumbch$t put the butt right on his shoulder bone. He still hates that rifle. Shooting budy's got a 460 Weatherby, gotto get the kid to shoot it at least once

I'm baffled....but geuss that's a good thing in this instance.

He was/is an aobnoxious little twit. Good riddence!

No that would be humorous AJ. Les

I gots a loaded truck headed for Ideho as I types..

Don

P.S. Do you shovel sidewalks? Man, do I have a sidewalk for you..

Snow?????? HAHAHAHAHA. The high here today was almost 80. Spring is coming a little too soon here. I want more snow.

Jim

WOW!!!! This place has sure sped up since Rick did the facelift on it. It takes just a second to post now. I like a lot Rick!!

Jim

I'm writing a distributed system for eliminating stale access, and using it as an excuse to teach myself Java Enterprise Edition 5.2. Pretty cool so far.


No, I have Internet access (if I didn't, I'd jump back into the job market until I found a job where I did); but I just went from a company with 7 employees to one with 170,000, and the new place filters Internet access so as to eliminate lost productivity from porn sites and MP3 sites and shopping sites and so on. When I try to navigate to the Campfire, I'm informed that the Campfire is prohibited because it's a "weapons" site.

Not a problem for the foreseeable future, though, because it looks like this project is going to be one where I can go just about as fast as I can for just about as long as I can, without spending long periods of downtime waiting for other people to pop their heads out of their butts--which is the kind of thing that puts me on the Campfire during working hours.


Sometimes continuing to work; however, it turns out that when I'm sitting next to Penny in front of the TV, I can occasionally pirate a neighbor's WiFi connection and surf the Web, which is cool. (That's why I don't have an access point of my own.)

My last employer offered me a laptop, and I refused, because a desktop machine was just as useful and cheaper. This employer forced a laptop on me, along with a docking station, flat-panel monitor, keyboard, and mouse for use at work. I'm not sure it's financially justified, but I'm still exploring the possibilities.

Thanks for the inquiry, HoundGirl: I'm fine. Better than fine: I'm getting a chance to exercise my brain and challenge myself, which I enjoy.

As for the Big Stick situation, I'm pretty well accustomed to racism. The variety I encounter most often is anti-Semitic rather than anti-Asian, but any race of intelligent, hard-working people is bound to run into jealous detractors. However, when I saw what he'd done to his own kids with the duct tape, I came as close to being actually horrified as I think anything on this site has ever brought me. If he hadn't been banned, I think I probably would have taken those photos and made a little mural out of them, along with an explanatory caption ("Never forget: this is the kind of guy Big Stick is") and a link to the thread they came from, and then followed him around for awhile, posting it on any thread I happened to see him on. The ban is of course Rick's prerogative, but I think it unjustly makes a martyr out of Big Stick, especially in the eyes of his acolytes. I would rather have seen him be forced to deal with the divot that should have cut in his reputation, the way he did when he stabbed HoundGirl in the back.

When I try to navigate to the Campfire, I'm informed that the Campfire is prohibited because it's a "weapons" site.


I think it is up to you to crack that filter and show your new boss what you've got!
Or, I can have my daughter teach you how she uses proxy-servers to beat me and get on to myspace.

Of course I could get past the filter with a proxy server: that's not the problem. The problem is threefold.

First, since my new employer works extensively with money, they have funds and motivation to hire folks to do nothing all day but watch network traffic for people like me. They're mostly looking for embezzlement attempts, but they're also looking for anything they can find so they can demonstrate to their bosses that they're doing their jobs, and attempts to access the Campfire will do in a pinch. If I had time to do a little research and social engineering, I might still be able to slip past these people, but they do make it harder and more time-consuming than a simple automated filter.

Second, the Campfire is interesting and all, but the work I'm currently doing is--I'm afraid--a lot more interesting. I hope you won't take it wrong, but these days y'all hardly cross my mind when I'm at work.

And third, of course, is that I believe my employer has every right in the world to put restrictions on what I may and mayn't do while using their equipment on time they're paying me for. I believe refusing to submit myself to those restrictions would be immoral and indefensible: therefore I won't refuse.

But thanks for the thought...

...any race of intelligent, hardworking people..., now, THAT is RACISM, if I have ever seen it!!! Even the insinuation that ONE or TWO specific races are intelligent and or industrious is RACIST, whether one intends such comments as a slur or not.

This, IMO, is part of what Stick was trying to point out, albeit in questionable form, ( I agree about the kids with duct taped faces, BTW); I also find such comments really offensive. Are Asians or Semites (not all of whom are Jews) more ...hardworking... or of superior intelligence to, say, the peoples from northwestern Europe who founded North America?

I can certainly see why some appear to see "racism" everywhere they go, of course, I am not among the chosen and thus must be lazy and not too bright, but, I know BS when I read it!

If I'm visiting someone's house (or their forums) and the owner politely and discretely requests I cease and desists some derisive language aimed at another guest I probably will.

If I continued such behaviour it might well be construed as disdain or disrespect for my host, especially if the forum I was in was part of how the host made his living and especially if what I was doing weren't about about some principle, but rather about being in a peeing match.

Viewed that way, Stick figuratively flipped the bird at Rick, nothing admirable in that.

And I'll agree on the tape on kid's faces thing, prob'ly seemed funny at Stick's end at the time.

What is sorta interesting/sad to watch is the groupie effect.

Lord help me if I ever become a follower.... (I'd rather just wander around clueless by myself )

Birdwatcher

I was thinking the same thing. Also how a bunch of supposed he-men are really drama queens. And people were afraid of the women bringing estrogen to the 'Fire!

Penny

Now, Darling, let's not go there...

No-No-No Utah----Darlin' is what makes her so riled, rankled ...or flattered---I forgot!!!

I couldn't remember the precise pronunciation. I think that if one of us calls her "Darlin'" about once a month, we can keep this inside joke perking along for years, much to the confusion of new members.

You know I love you guys...

Penny

Thanks Sweetie Les

I know you have a good sense of humor, else I would not have done it.

As long as no one calls you "Hon"!









Right, Hon?

Penny

I have GOT to remember them smiley things.

IB so we still have more snow than you do. I have 3 foot drifts on the north side of the house. tom

Interesting: I hadn't pegged you for a sycophant of political correctness. You should pick your side and stick with it.

The book you need to check out is The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life[/i] by Richard Herrnstein. There's a lot of liberal opposition to it, but it demonstrates fairly rigorously and incontrovertibly that, as far as IQ is concerned, whites as a group are dumber than Asians, blacks are dumber than whites, and Gentiles are dumber than Jews. (Women, as it turns out, average about the same intelligence as men, but men have a wider distribution: there are more of us at each extreme than there are of them.)

And as far as industry is concerned: how common are Asians and Jews on the government-assistance rolls where [i]you live, as compared to black and white Gentiles?

I don't mind if you call me a racist, but there's a difference between opinion and fact.

Barak,

Just curious. Are you saying that you view The Bell Curve as fact? or opinion?

well,.... there's 6 million of them in Israel,.,....Israel receives 1/4th of all U.S foreign aid,... you do the arithmetic,...

Interesting, that ONE book by ONE author is the basis for your opinion concerning human intelligence, it is reminiscent of the sort of opinion derived from another book, "Mein Kampf" and is exactly the sort of thing that I find disturbing. Separation by "race" IS RACISM, whether you admit it or not.

Your source contradicts the opinions I have heard expressed by one of my shooting partners, a Psych. "prof" at U.B.C. whose field of study IS human intelligence. He stated to me, after a controversy arose here in Canada concerning this topic, that his and other's research into this indicated little, if any, difference in innate intellect among human racial groups; the effects of nurture and relative familiarity with written materials having a far greater influence on perceived intelligence.

As to Jews being of greater intelligence than ...whites..., this is, again, typical of the arrogance of "God's chosen people" and has a great deal to do with the "anti-Semitism" so common throughout the World. Jews are found in more than ONE racial grouping, so, this is a false and self-contradictory premise, hardly surprising.

BTW, the term ...dumber...correctly refers to the ability/lack thereof of SPEECH and has nothing to do with intellect; one would think that an authority on such matters, like you, would hesitate to use such incorrect slang in a discussion of a topic like this. But, "small learning is a dangerous thing", as the English poet, Alexander Pope informed us.

MORE government assistance, by far, is given to Asians here in Vancouver than to "whites", there are relatively few "Blacks" and the Jews here are largely European in origin, so, again, your premise is faulty. There is, as you say, a difference between opinion and fact; the opinions of a single Jew in a single book are NOT facts.

Concerning political rectitude, nonsense, my ...side... is simply that of truth, rather than somewhat disguised prejudice. You seem to have some pretty odd opinions for someone who is usually considered a "liberal" here and your comments here ARE racist, again, hardly surprising. You should go to an Irish bar and loudly proclaim the intellectual superiority of the Jew over "white" people.............BTW, were Shakespear, Joyce, Da Vinci, Buonarroti, Rembrandt, Stephen Hawking or Beethoven Jews or maybe Asians?

The ol' "Nature vs. Nurture" debate.

Is intelligence at least partially inherited? Seems all but certain. That being so, are some populations smarter than others in the same way that some are darker/taller/shorter? Sounds logical.

What blurs pat conclusions though are real-world examples: Koreans often shine academically and on IQ tests over here, typical Asians ("sorry Kute", says Birdwatcher in some odd juxtaposition :)). Yet Koreans in Japan display all of the lower IQ scores and social problems of a typical disfunctional minority. So, did we get all the smart ones?

'Nother example would be Pakistanis. The ones we have (of which I have taught several) typically cluster at the high end of the academic/IQ scale, the children of immigrants becoming successful professionals. Those same Pakistanis in England forming a low-performing disaffected urban underclass. Once again, did we get all the smart ones?

Finally, anoter real-world example which Barak will readily admit. In my urban setting I have known TONS of low performing minorities who can't/wont do jack on an IQ test and who are barely literate in their teens.

Yet are all these street/gang type kids idiots? Some are to be sure, but many have a razor-sharp streetwise wit which defies quantification on formal written tests and who are ANYTHING but stupid.

These same sort of kids are often able to perform sophisticated non-academic endeavors, ranging from building their own legitimate businesses like a body shop (consider the folks at "Orange County Choppers" for example) to running sophisticated criminal syndicates.

Teach many of these same 'hood kids chess, put money on it, and they'll have you checked in no time.

Many kids I have taught from the various 'hoods do not read well. I believe reading is a skill like music, best learned and repeatedly practiced young. There is a huge difference between merely being able to read, and being able to read and interpret a complex question.

I have seen tons of kids who can "read", as in mouth the sounds perfectly well, but who cannot easily internalise those words into concepts and questions to be answered. Yet ASK 'em that exact same question verbally and they'll come right back at you with the answer. Its not comprehension that is the problem, but READING comprehension, a gift which all of us put to reading early on take for granted.

Barak, I have seen you jump to assume that some of my 'hood kids who succeeded only did so through preferential quotas, which I found disturbing.

Every year I see kids who should be dumb as a post considering their circumstance absolutely knock my socks off with their academic ability, the sort who sit around doing rubick cubes for fun. What made THAT particular sibling a prodigy I dunno, (I usually ask them if they had been abducted by space aliens at any time ).

Soo... are some folks smarter than others? absolutely. Are some families smarter than others? Yepper. Are some whole clusters of families brighter, prob'ly so. In the real world it doesn't matter worth a hoot, especially given all the confounding factors which muddy pat conclusions.

Rating whole "ethnic groups" reminds me of the current idiocy of "rating schools". A school, like an ethnic group is just an artificial construct. Both are made up of individuals, which fact oughtta be the focus and basis for policy.

Which, of course, tosses "affirmative action" out the window.

Birdwatcher

Great post, Birdy.

Paul

Yup--It was so well written that I may just have to agree without even knowing what the heck I'm agreeeing to!!

Well said, Birdy, I wish that you would write this way whenever you post, as we "may" agree far more than is always obvious.

Your point about the street kids is particularly worthwhile and valid, IME, some of the barely literate aboriginals I know in northern Canada would amaze me with their precise, well-articulated intelligence.

My father, did not attend high school and my mother finished with junior high and stenographic training; yet, both of these people were well spoken, extremely capable albeit largely auto-didactic in their learning and highly repected in my home town. My father's excellent, descriptive writing about the early days of our area and my mother's accounting abilities were frequently mentioned to me, in admiring terms, when I owned and operated my own independent bookstore.

My mother learned this on her own and actually was the first civilian in Canada to take over a specific position in the R.C.M.P. that had always be held by an NCO. My father understood the basic hydrological, limnological and climatic situation of Kootenay Lake to a degree that astounded my personal friends who are professional biologists.

Intelligence certainly is not racially or culturally defined, even a "troglodyte" of a social conservative (like me) cannot agree with such racist drivel.Again, good stuff!

Excerp from Barak's post: "as far as IQ is concerned"

Those few words pack next to no weight in my opinion.
I know 2 guys with 120+ IQ's, who can barely lace up their own shoes. Sure it is only a sample of two, but in my experience, the people who are "book smart" are very little use when it comes to putting ideas into a practical application. The smartest man I have ever met, only had a grade six education, yet could draw up plans and build complex machinery that would give most engineers a skull cramp.

RO

Had this typed last night, but could not get it to submit. Kute and Bird said it better, but I think it is the same general point.

I'm just a WASP of average intelligence, but here's my take.

On the demise of Larry, I think that we would all do well to let the key words of John 8:7 guide us. I know that I'm a sinner and am, therefore, not worthy to be a caster of stones. I intend to send Larry a note to thank him for the wisdom of his experience that he has shared with me.

On the intellectual superiority of the races, I don't know if any race is inherently superior to another, but some people just work harder to get ahead. For example, I personally know of an extended family of Vietnamese Catholics who were resettled from Northern Vietnam to Southern Vietnam when the French gave up in the mid-1950s. They built a new life in the South and were successful. When the US gave up in the early 1970s, they came to Lincoln, NE, with nothing, built a new life, and have been successful. 2 of the Daughters who were born in South Vietnam, but grew up and were educated in the Lincoln public schools, now have PhDs. That, I believe, is a pretty common scenario among the Vietnamese folks who I have met. They don't all get PhDs or MBAs, but most of them are good, contributing, citizens. The point that I'm seeking to make is that it is my perception that people of Asian heritage often pull themselves up from the bottom of society to become middle and upper-middle income families within a generation or 2. I don't believe that the same percent of the white, black, or hispanic population has as much success, but I don't think that they, in general, work as hard to get ahead. Same/same with sub-continent Indians who come to America for an education and stay to become successful. This isn't new, as the Chinese have been the merchants of East and Southeast Asia for over 100 years, just as the sub-continent Indians were the merchants over much of colonial Africa prior those former colonies becoming independent countries. When the new black governments took control and threw the Indians out, their economies collapsed in short order, since the new rulers didn't have the expertise to successfully fill the infrastructure void.

Oh, and what about people who practice the ethics of the LDS/Mormon Church? 'Pretty hard to find a more thrifty, honest, and self-sufficient group of people.

Jeff

I view it as a fairly well-formed piece of scientific research--sort of like More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott.

Is that what I said?


Are you hoping to get my goat by calling me a racist, the way people get yours by calling you one? Sorry. I've never seen anything morally wrong with racism, although in many cases it works out to be counterproductive in a practical sense.


A college professor agrees with the liberal establishment regarding a controversial piece of politically-incorrect research? Say it ain't so!


And you call me racist, eh? At least I never compared Jews to whites.


Okay.


Read the subtitle of that book again: especially the second-to-last word. Read it several times, if you need to.


Laffin here...


Am I usually considered a liberal here? By whom?

Consider it readily admitted.


I won't deny it, but the occasion of which you speak does not leap instantly to my memory, unless you're talking about one of my kneejerk rants about affirmative action.

It sure ain't me.

I've thought many hours, well, maybe minutes, about Barakistan and while I would be hard pressed to list the misgivings I have in any given order there is just something in the back of my mind that says it won't work. Given human nature as you and I (Christians) understand it, it is unworkable. One example: suppose that I, as a resident of Butler county, pay my fees to the Butler County Police Protective Association for their 'protection'. At some point I become highly miffed at some jerk who lives in Dallas County PPA and take a baseball bat to him then flee back to Butler County. They are bound by contract to protect me. What would be the outcome of Dallas County PPA coming after me? Would this not degenerate into a warlord situation such as in Afghanistan?

Barak, at NO point in my comments have I called YOU a racist, I simply stated that separation by race is racism, as I think even a BS artist like you would agree. You very carefully separate my comments by "cut and paste" to try to present my comments out of context and thus make it seem as though I am saying something different than what I actually said; this is a typical pseudo-intellectual trick on the 'net and it is invalid as an argument.

I have no interest in whether you are a racist or a [bleep]' Martian, your comments are simply all too commonplace among a certain type of person that I have known. The "Nature-Nurture" debate is quite beyond your ken AND your presentation of a single author's work as de facto proof of your neo-Nazi theories demonstrates that clearly.

In any event, your attitude concerning the supposed intelligence levels of Jews, etc. is a foolish and dangerous one; making comments like this here in racially-culturally mixed Vancouver, B.C. can get a guy into REAL trouble. I think that your comments/opinions are not only un-scientific, but, are rooted in an arrogance that may well get you into a situation that you cannot handle, I have seen this here a number of times....but, it's your problem.

JEWS are NOT more intelligent than ANYONE else, period.

Fair enough, although it's important to think about what the definition of "work" you're using is. For example, would you say that government "works?"


I'd say just the opposite. Given the Christian understanding of human nature, it seems clear that giving one human coercive power over others is one of the most dangerous, boneheaded stunts one could possibly pull. Perhaps man is not particularly good at governing himself...but however bad he is at that, in a situation where he is forced to deal with the unpleasant consequences of stupid decisions, he's going to be much worse at governing others, where it's those others, not him, who have to pay the consequences for his stupid decisions.


So in your model there's only one PPA ("private protection agency" is the generally-accepted expansion of that) per geographical area, and that area's PPA has a monopoly there? That's not Barakistan; as a matter of fact, the only difference I can see between that and what we have now is that (presumably) one would be able to opt out of being protected (and out of paying for it) if the protection began to become too oppressive.

In Barakistan, you'd be able to choose your PPA from among several providing service in your area, in much the same way that you choose an ISP today.


Not unless the two PPAs were too dumb to anticipate a situation like this before it happened. In real life, it would be very, very rare for PPAs to actually fight each other: they'd have contracts with one another that pre-specified how situations like the one you describe would be dealt with. No bloodshed, no destruction of property.

For example, in your situation (assuming it wasn't completely evident from the very beginning who was at fault), they might have agreed that a pair of agents consisting of one from each PPA would be assigned to perform an investigation, and bring the resulting evidence before a judge at a mutually-agreed-upon arbitration firm.

If your side lost the arbitration, then your PPA would not protect you against your victim or his PPA (to do so would constitute an initiation of force, which would utterly destroy your PPA's reputation, customer base, and bottom line), although it would probably contact you to warn you, so that you'd have the option of calling up your victim before he got to you and bribing him or blackmailing him to leave you alone.

Depending on the blatancy of your original attack, your PPA and your victim's might bill you for the investigation and arbitration. If it was your second or third offense, your PPA might raise your rates or even drop you as a customer.

Heh.

I think it's pretty clear to see what's going on here; there's no need to continue.

So I leave you in control of the arena. Congratulations, and good luck.

Pretty heady stuff here. If you miss Stick's lively banter I think you can find him on snipers hide. Hard to mistake his witty remarks, but he seems more polite?

No, Barak, you are honestly mistaken, it was NOT my intent to imply that YOU are a racist as I doubt that you are and don't know or care anyway; it is simply that I consider any distinction between peoples on an ethnic or racial basis to be racist....NOT always a negative issue, but, in today's society, usually made to seem that way.

BTW, my comments about society HERE were made in response to YOUR question concerning government assistance in my region, so, the word ...American... that you refered to is irrelevant to your query.

No harm, no foul, I have no animosity toward you, but, I do disagree with you on this.