The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
Watch youtube, "Texas Plinking". A guy down in Texas has a 1000 yard range and invites people to come down and shoot at a 10" plate at 1000 yards. They get 10 rounds and if they hit the 10" before using up their allotment they can use the rest of their 10 rounds to hit a 5" gong. Watch episode 6 to see some really good shooting.
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
I used to shoot a lot of sporting clays and trap. 10's of thousands of rounds a summer/month sometimes. Traveled etc.
My hit/kill percentage on ducks and geese is considerably higher than it ever was on clay. Maybe because of the clay games - dunno.
IMO - when it comes to gun games, it's more important to participate at different places. Used to shoot against a lot of guys who made AA or Masters by only shooting tournaments at one course. Get them off that one course and suddenly they're C class shooters. Give me a guy who's a B shooter but shoots courses of fire all over the place over the AA/Master who never leaves home.
I shot USPSA in the 90s, was an officer and President of our local club for several years. About once or twice a year a group of law enforcement officers from one branch or another would show up for a match and place at the bottom.
I would be very friendly and invite them back. We would never see them again.
Whether it's competition or just shooting, the common denominator amongst those who shoot real well is that they shoot a lot. I like competition. I like competition that proves the equipment (like BR or "F" class) And the shooter, and I like competition that accents shooter skill (like M-S or Palma). GD
... I used to shoot a lot of sporting clays and trap. 10's of thousands of rounds a summer/month sometimes. Traveled etc.
My hit/kill percentage on ducks and geese is considerably higher than it ever was on clay. Maybe because of the clay games - dunno.
IMO - when it comes to gun games, it's more important to participate at different places. Used to shoot against a lot of guys who made AA or Masters by only shooting tournaments at one course. Get them off that one course and suddenly they're C class shooters. Give me a guy who's a B shooter but shoots courses of fire all over the place over the AA/Master who never leaves home.
+1000 on getting out and shooting different places, different course of fire, rifles, etc. I have a small range set up here on the farm out to 300 yards. I can look like a wizard when new folks show up. But I openly acknowledge, I have a significant "home court" advantage... The other piece of that is "get off the bench". Start shooting field positions, particularly off hand...
Watch youtube, "Texas Plinking". A guy down in Texas has a 1000 yard range and invites people to come down and shoot at a 10" plate at 1000 yards. They get 10 rounds and if they hit the 10" before using up their allotment they can use the rest of their 10 rounds to hit a 5" gong. Watch episode 6 to see some really good shooting.
I just started watching his show about a week ago. Nobody was hitting that ten inch gong. I'll have to check out episode 6.
As a firearms instructor in my agency for 24 of my 26 years on the job. Getting Deputies to an open range date was an exercise in futility. We would see the same few people over and over again. But seldom the people who really needed to be there. It was frustrating!
even kind of the same way and amongst the competitive world everybody thinks they're chosen discipline is the hardest. and I'm really no different I don't guess. I do love seeing people come and shoot the NRA silhouettes the first time when they realize all the rules regulations and time limits sink in and it's all totally off hand. a lot of people don't come back the second time.. to me it's one of those disciplines you don't even have to win or even place that high to have a really good day as long as you keep bettering yourself..
Not unusual at all. Just because you can shoot in one setting doesn't translate to all shooting sports and/or hunting scenarios. And just because you are an excellent hunter doesn't mean you are a high level competitive F-Class shooter.
I've seen a lot of competent shooters fall apart in the field.
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
True^^^
In my limited experience the guys that were winning were also shooting and dry firing a lot.
I still try to shoot as often as possible and can really see what meager skill I have left disappear after missing range time for a while.
The Secret Service shooters would show up fairly regular, especially LR matches. Those guys usually snagged the "X on the first shot" coins.
Shot some IPSC matches with a club that would squad first timers with guys that they knew would guide them and not run them off right out of the gate.
Damned arthritis and a buggered up spine/shoulder will really put a damper on competing.....have fun while you're able!
even kind of the same way and amongst the competitive world everybody thinks they're chosen discipline is the hardest. and I'm really no different I don't guess. I do love seeing people come and shoot the NRA silhouettes the first time when they realize all the rules regulations and time limits sink in and it's all totally off hand. a lot of people don't come back the second time.. to me it's one of those disciplines you don't even have to win or even place that high to have a really good day as long as you keep bettering yourself..
I think the rifle disciplines that include off hand matches or are shot completely off hand really level the playing field.
Knew a lot of competitors that could nearly clean OTC matches after they got off their feet.
I, I, I...what is this damned obsession most here seem to have about everyone else doing things the way they do it?
Sorry if you're offended by people noticing stuff and talking about it on a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss different ways to do things, why are you here?
Sorry if you're offended by people noticing stuff and talking about it on a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss different ways to do things, why are you here?
I am not pushing others to do as I do. Nor am I deriding their decision to walk a different path.
Don't bother answering, I have lost interest in what you have to say.
In my observation working with some of the best special operations shooters, one thing was obvious. The guys who were really switched on, generally went and did competitions. That included both handgun and rifle shoots. There were a good number of USPSA shooters. PRS was in its infancy when I was doing what I was doing, but sniper matches like the USASOC International Sniper Competition were available. One of my team mates was an ISC winner and was/is exceedingly talented.
He is standing pictured w/o gear on in this pic. Their faces are blurred, as some are still working.
Anyways,
I noted that our best shooters were all USPSA guys. No surprise there. I cannot think of any of our instructors who were not USPSA shooters. You had to really be a switched on shooter to get a shooting instructor slot. You were already amongst a group of guys who shot a LOT, so to stand out in that crowd, you needed to be talented.
Practice the same way you fight. Games is games, sports is sports, neither translate to when the schit hits the fan.
That begs the question then, do you think competition shooting, games if you will, is detrimental to "gunfighting" since it doesn't translate, or just neutral?
In my observation working with some of the best special operations shooters, one thing was obvious. The guys who were really switched on, generally went and did competitions. That included both handgun and rifle shoots. There were a good number of USPSA shooters. PRS was in its infancy when I was doing what I was doing, but sniper matches like the USASOC International Sniper Competition were available. One of my team mates was an ISC winner and was/is exceedingly talented.
He is standing pictured w/o gear on in this pic. Their faces are blurred, as some are still working.
Anyways,
I noted that our best shooters were all USPSA guys. No surprise there. I cannot think of any of our instructors who were not USPSA shooters. You had to really be a switched on shooter to get a shooting instructor slot. You were already amongst a group of guys who shot a LOT, so to stand out in that crowd, you needed to be talented.
Good post - if I recall correctly didn't you and your partner win the first sniper match held at the Blacks Creek range in the early 2000's? Lots o' USPSA shooters at that match as well.
Yeah that was a state sniper championship. We took top Mil/LE team and third overall. I have won one or two things. I try not to bring some things up here on the Fire as it turns into a measuring contest of sorts. These days I would be lucky to hit a hillside.
I can however say with certainty that those skills have translated into being calm under pressure/under fire during engagements. Knowing your capabilities has direct correlation. Knowing you have the ability to dominate a situation probably has saved a few idiots from being shot since I knew they did not stand a chance and giving them just a little bit more time to reconsider their choices.
I used to pooh-pooh the idea of shooting in competitions. I have been to Gunsite 6-7 times, been through Tom Givens' Rangemaster classes (when he had his building in Memphis), took a class with Larry Vickers, and a good bit of local training.
I always figured I was good to go and didn't need to try any matches. I practice pretty regularly on my range at home and figured I had reached a fair level of proficiency and was doing ok. Of course, that was just me shooting alone, with the dog watching from a distance.
On a whim just about a year ago I signed up to shoot a Steel Challenge match. It was quickly made apparent to me that there was a BIG difference between what I could do at home alone, and what I could do with people standing around watching, and a timer going off in my ear. It was a big awakening. Man it's a lonely feeling standing there going pew-pew-pew and them plates ain't ringing.
I will never be a Grand Master Steel Challenge shooter. I shoot the match with my every day carry gun, stock CZ P-10C. And a plain old Ruger .22/45 with iron sights for rimfire. But going to the matches has opened my eyes to where I need to be, and there are a lot of cool guys there too. Most of them are better than me, a few are worse. And it's fun! And my 17-year -old daughter comes with me now and shoots!
My goal is mainly to be able to do what I can do at home alone, in front of other people watching and a timer running, and try to improve from there. It has not been easy but I am coming along, and having fun doing it.
Signing up for a match has definitely increased my interest in improving, it has been well worth it.
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
I'd rather be hunting something than spending time shooting targets. YMMV.
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
Here is real worl shooting with iron sights and guns over 100 years old. The first is 3 shots with open sights at 100 yards with 2 separate Sharps rifles at the same target. The second is 2 groups with a slight adjustment to center the group with a Remington Rollong block at 200 yards. That is long range with those sights...
I'd rather be hunting something than spending time shooting targets. YMMV.
they're not mutually exclusive. And, FWIW, I agree with you. I don't spend enough time shooting with a purpose anymore because I don't need to, and a lot of range time is my son shooting not me nowadays.
Thankfully, deer are big and easy to kill inside 100 yards.
The problem is that without competition, there is little/no motivation to improve once one attains a minimal level of competence.
I don't agree. I competed with a lot of guys who had literally ZERO desire to get better. They just liked shooting. Go out, hit their 40% and never improved. I know others that would spend all kinds of time on skeet fields, shooting open to get better for duck season - not a single league or registered target ever shot.
IMO - motivation comes from within the person. Their own drive, the competition or not can be an outlet or a means to an end but it's not a replacement for personal accountability and drive to be better.
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
FWIW, the original post doesn't say anyone NEEDS to compete, but questions the assertion made by many here on the 'fire that being good at, say, PRS isn't "helpful" to hunting. I simply am making the assertion that, yes, it is. It builds skills that hold up under stress, and while not exactly the same as shooting at game, they're skills that are positive in the equation of competence and skill.
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
FWIW, the original post doesn't say anyone NEEDS to compete, but questions the assertion made by many here on the 'fire that being good at, say, PRS isn't "helpful" to hunting. I simply am making the assertion that, yes, it is. It builds skills that hold up under stress, and while not exactly the same as shooting at game, they're skills that are positive in the equation of competence and skill.
Absolutely
Originally Posted by JSTUART
Originally Posted by goalie
Sorry if you're offended by people noticing stuff and talking about it on a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss different ways to do things, why are you here?
I am not pushing others to do as I do. Nor am I deriding their decision to walk a different path.
Don't bother answering, I have lost interest in what you have to say.
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
FWIW, the original post doesn't say anyone NEEDS to compete, but questions the assertion made by many here on the 'fire that being good at, say, PRS isn't "helpful" to hunting. I simply am making the assertion that, yes, it is. It builds skills that hold up under stress, and while not exactly the same as shooting at game, they're skills that are positive in the equation of competence and skill.
That’s where my “I am sure doing so could be useful in some ways” part comes in.
The worst field/ game shot I ever hunted with (twice- I thought the first was an off-day), was a "competition shooter." On the 3 animals I saw him take, none were clean kills. "Buck fever" maybe. Or not...
I don't know how good or bad he was at competition, not having observed him there.
He was better than I on doves, tho. But that's not saying much.
I enjoy the Texas Plinking videos. It is enlightening in a real world way, no spoter, the wind is what it is and the most success seems to come from shooters using a load that they can see their impacts and adjust. I like the run what you brung aspect.
I, I, I...what is this damned obsession most here seem to have about everyone else doing things the way they do it?
Sorry if you're offended by people noticing stuff and talking about it on a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss different ways to do things, why are you here?
He lives an unarmed slaves life in Australia and gets pizzy anytime someone talks about shooting, cause he is not allowed by his masters in Canberra.
Originally Posted by T_Inman
(snip)
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
I think we all agree competition is not required to be good at field shooting but it would be required to be "the best".
Just my pedantic post of the day.
I believe competition will improve one's shooting and it does not have to be formal. Watch a few vidoes of current shooting, what ever type, and compete with that by your self. To get better one needs to know what's better.
For the local club competitions equipment racers can influence participation of newbies or established participants.
I've seen this where there were say 20 shooters would show up for a monthly match. A few equipment racers would begin their spending on better equipment. Hi score was shot among those few month over month.
Some who remained chose to shoot anyhow just for fun.
Participation dwindled over time to where a few remained damaging the fun shoots and killing the match.
Just an observation.
This wasn't much of a problem for disciplines like Bullseye pistol where shooters were ranked by the first several weeks scores, A, B, C, D ranked groups of shooters. But sandbagging the first weeks could be a problem.
That schidt [competition] will get you killed on the street! If you carry a gun for self defense you will never know how good you are or aren't if you don't compete. Participating in USPSA or IDPA is the best reality check you can get.
Participating in comps will probably motivate you to get better which leads to more practice and regular dry fire. Soon the goal will become unconscious competence which allows you to analyze and solve problems under pressure thus allowing you to eliminate threats efficiently and not shoot non threats.
Or you can join the masses that quote stats and chant 3 feet, 3 seconds and 1 shot w/ my 45 will get er dun.
If you think you are good enough you probably don't own a shot timer.
For the local club competitions equipment racers can influence participation of newbies or established participants.
I've seen this where there were say 20 shooters would show up for a monthly match. A few equipment racers would begin their spending on better equipment. Hi score was shot among those few month over month.
Some who remained chose to shoot anyhow just for fun.
Participation dwindled over time to where a few remained damaging the fun shoots and killing the match.
Just an observation.
This wasn't much of a problem for disciplines like Bullseye pistol where shooters were ranked by the first several weeks scores, A, B, C, D ranked groups of shooters. But sandbagging the first weeks could be a problem.
On the flip side, I love when I can beat people shooting race guns with my carry gun at USPSA. It's literally win-win. If I don't, well, they have an optic and comp, and I'm shooting limited minor......
Yep, there's more than one way to….measure a dick.
Are you sure? I thought the only truly sanctioned method was center of the anus, twice around the balls, and to just beyond the tip.
Where’s Paul when you need clarification on stuff like this??
Good point, I'll ask Paul if he'll allow it. But he'll probably ly just ask if I want to discuss it over a nice dinner at a Viking restaurant.
And to clarify my comment on dick measuring contests, it was not a reference to the competitions themselves. It was a reference to the threads on here discussing the competitions. No matter how they start, they all end up with Paul on the measuring tape.
For the local club competitions equipment racers can influence participation of newbies or established participants.
I've seen this where there were say 20 shooters would show up for a monthly match. A few equipment racers would begin their spending on better equipment. Hi score was shot among those few month over month.
Some who remained chose to shoot anyhow just for fun.
Participation dwindled over time to where a few remained damaging the fun shoots and killing the match.
Just an observation.
This wasn't much of a problem for disciplines like Bullseye pistol where shooters were ranked by the first several weeks scores, A, B, C, D ranked groups of shooters. But sandbagging the first weeks could be a problem.
On the flip side, I love when I can beat people shooting race guns with my carry gun at USPSA. It's literally win-win. If I don't, well, they have an optic and comp, and I'm shooting limited minor......
Putting your ego aside and inserting reality does lead to great things. Training w/ Tier 1 combat vets led me to competing w/ my carry G19 and striving to make all A zone hits. I didn't win comps but became a more competent and confident shooter.
Sporting clays, skeet, and trap, helped my shotgun shooting skills tremendously. Moving targets are fun to hit. I hit well with my rifle and pistol. However, most rifle and pistol ranges you are only shooting still targets. Maybe learning to shoot them faster would help. Never shot in a pistol or rifle match. Have a friend who goes to Cowboy Action shooting. That would be fun, but have to buy another pistol, and an old fashioned pump or double barrel shotgun for the matches.
Putting your ego aside and inserting reality does lead to great things. Training w/ Tier 1 combat vets led me to competing w/ my carry G19 and striving to make all A zone hits. I didn't win comps but became a more competent and confident shooter.
mike r
It's almost like what you get out of it depends on what effort you put into it.......
Watch youtube, "Texas Plinking". A guy down in Texas has a 1000 yard range and invites people to come down and shoot at a 10" plate at 1000 yards. They get 10 rounds and if they hit the 10" before using up their allotment they can use the rest of their 10 rounds to hit a 5" gong. Watch episode 6 to see some really good shooting.
I haven't competed beyond the "Club" level in any discipline. Local F-Class is fun. Mostly a bunch of guys who just like to shoot and learn about trajectory, reading wind, and develop good shooting technique. Our very small private range has a couple BR matches annually that I try to make. I don't stand a snowball's chance in Hades of placing let-alone winning, but it's a really fun bunch to hang out with so I go and I shoot.
We typically swap annually between Skeet and 5-stand because that's what we have locally that isn't Trap. The team is just a bunch who like to keep the rust knocked off so as to be competent when fall rolls around again. Not serious and it's as much about a plate of hot-wings and a beer after shooting as it is the shooting.
I attended the local practical pistol shooters weekly league exactly once. I didn't enjoy their company at all. Core group of 4-5 guys who wanted to make the course really hard as they had some matches coming up. My sense was that really they set up the course to keep everyone except that core group away so those 4-5 guys could have the range to themselves once a week.
I've seen very competitive rifle-shooters completely lose their mind on live targets from coyotes to elk. Most of them fall into the: "I've done it once so I can now do it all the time" crowd. I've also seen people who don't practice much at all with good hand/eye coordination be pretty darn proficient on critters with a rifle.
I grew up in the heart of pheasant country during the peak years of CRP. I grew up smack dead-center of the "Good Old Days" of pheasant hunting in North America. Upland birds in open country is by far the large bulk of my field experience, especially as it pertains to observing a lot of other hunters as during the 80's and 90's, large groups of hunters were very common. I've seen a LOT of very proficient trap, skeet, and sporting clays shooters that were mediocre at best on live bird, even over dogs. More often that not their problem was EGO and trying to "get the bird first", a few just came completely unglued upon a flush. This is also where I've seen a bunch of shooters who virtually practice 0% off-season be exceptional wing-shooters with nothing more than some good hand-eye coordination and enough experience/flushes that the shooting was almost all just muscle-memory and they didn't get rattled or over-think things.
The only think I know about shooting handguns is that pretty-much everyone is better at it than I am.
I am a big advocate for participating in the shooting sports. I started my boys out in Steel Challenge when they were 7-8 years old and then into USPSA by 12. It’s been something that we could do together and it’s always fun to watch them try to beat each other and their old man. But, most importantly, it has taught them (and me): • How to shoot under stress • How to clearly identify targets and make accurate shots, recognize them while already moving on to the next target, avoid the targets you don’t want to shoot and all while moving and not just standing still in a weaver stance on a square range. • Reloading fast and smoothly under stress and not shooting to empty before doing so. • Making repeated headshots on moving targets while you’re also moving. • Making a plan of “attack” and sticking with it when the buzzer goes off (the mental aspect is huge). • Making fast and accurate follow-up shots on moving and static targets. Clearing your weapon quickly and smoothly under pressure if there's a "jam" and continuing on. • Gaining complete confidence in your weapon, it’s capabilities and yours with it.
Yes, yes, we all know that the stress of a competition is not the same as the stress of a real-life shootout, but I’m damn well more prepared for one than I was before I started and so are my sons. Plus, it’s fun and the guys and gals that we shoot with are some of the best people a person could know. We’ve made life-long friends in this sport. Watched kids grow up in it.
Our club is very encouraging to new shooters and especially to family groups. We’ve got multiple families that not only participate but excel in it.
We run USPSA the 2nd Saturday of each month, Outlaw Steel the 4th Saturday and Steel Challenge on 5th Saturdays. We routinely run 60 shooters per match and have 15 or so that travel at least 2 hours to come to each match. We run our stages to be challenging and generally have stages that are fun and challenging for all class levels. We have unclassified shooters all the way through Master (and every couple of months a Grand Master factory sponsored shooter) at each match. We run at least 2 certified RO’s with each squad and always work with the new shooters to make sure they are safe and having a great time. Most of us also participate in other matches outside of our club at least once a month in addition to state, sectional and national level matches.
So, for me and my family, it has been a worthwhile endeavor on so many levels that I can’t imagine not participating.
I am a big advocate for participating in the shooting sports. I started my boys out in Steel Challenge when they were 7-8 years old and then into USPSA by 12. It’s been something that we could do together and it’s always fun to watch them try to beat each other and their old man. But, most importantly, it has taught them (and me): • How to shoot under stress • How to clearly identify targets and make accurate shots, recognize them while already moving on to the next target, avoid the targets you don’t want to shoot and all while moving and not just standing still in a weaver stance on a square range. • Reloading fast and smoothly under stress and not shooting to empty before doing so. • Making repeated headshots on moving targets while you’re also moving. • Making a plan of “attack” and sticking with it when the buzzer goes off (the mental aspect is huge). • Making fast and accurate follow-up shots on moving and static targets. Clearing your weapon quickly and smoothly under pressure if there's a "jam" and continuing on. • Gaining complete confidence in your weapon, it’s capabilities and yours with it.
Yes, yes, we all know that the stress of a competition is not the same as the stress of a real-life shootout, but I’m damn well more prepared for one than I was before I started and so are my sons. Plus, it’s fun and the guys and gals that we shoot with are some of the best people a person could know. We’ve made life-long friends in this sport. Watched kids grow up in it.
Our club is very encouraging to new shooters and especially to family groups. We’ve got multiple families that not only participate but excel in it.
We run USPSA the 2nd Saturday of each month, Outlaw Steel the 4th Saturday and Steel Challenge on 5th Saturdays. We routinely run 60 shooters per match and have 15 or so that travel at least 2 hours to come to each match. We run our stages to be challenging and generally have stages that are fun and challenging for all class levels. We have unclassified shooters all the way through Master (and every couple of months a Grand Master factory sponsored shooter) at each match. We run at least 2 certified RO’s with each squad and always work with the new shooters to make sure they are safe and having a great time. Most of us also participate in other matches outside of our club at least once a month in addition to state, sectional and national level matches.
So, for me and my family, it has been a worthwhile endeavor on so many levels that I can’t imagine not participating.
That's awesome!!!
I'm looking to get my son shooting precision rimfire matches with his Bergara B14r. It most certainly won't hurt his shooting while hunting.
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
I'd rather be hunting something than spending time shooting targets. YMMV.
I'd rather be hunting something than spending time shooting targets. YMMV.
How do you hit the targets?
It's been my experience that shooting well is a perishable skill. More so if you're doing it fast or under stress. I don't think, however, that he's saying he doesn't check zero before hunting, just that he doesn't spend a lot of time shooting paper or steel???
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
I agree with Goalie in his OP & also what Mackay said later.
I've never competed with a rifle, other than just a few club shoots of various types, but I did compete with a pistol & traveled a 3 state area in the summer.
Competing, plus all the trigger time required for practice, makes most everyone who does it regularly, better, period. 500-1000 round of practice a week tend to have a positive effect on your shooting.
And it does it in a lot of ways: obviously speed & accuracy are 2 pieces that get better over time, at least until you hit a wall.
But other good things also happen; you get to a point where you are highly focused, but it's a kind of sub-conscious focus in that you are not having to think about every element any longer.
The gun comes up & almost on it's own, acquires the target & almost sub-consciously you squeeze off the shot...................it's not only muscle memory at play, but mental memory as well.
And that carries over into your more casual shooting & range practice experiences; I've never been in a situation on the street to test that, but I believe that the muscle & mental memory takes over you you can execute almost w/o thinking about it
When the gun comes up, everything goes more or less on autopilot, unless you get the brain signal to stop.
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
Reality's a bitch, that's for sure. Hard. Cold. She doesn't care what you think.
I firmly believe that you don't "rise to the occasion" at all. You default to your level of training and competence. And the sad truth is, the first gunfight you're in is gonna be like the first time you had sex: "it'll be over a lot quicker than you imagined. You won't be nearly as good as you thought you'd be, and the best possible outcome is that you'll be just good enough to get the chance to do it again."
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
Reality's a bitch, that's for sure. Hard. Cold. She doesn't care what you think.
I firmly believe that you don't "rise to the occasion" at all. You default to your level of training and competence. And the sad truth is, the first gunfight you're in is gonna be like the first time you had sex: "it'll be over a lot quicker than you imagined. You won't be nearly as good as you thought you'd be, and the best possible outcome is that you'll be just good enough to get the chance to do it again."
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
Where I've seen the most people fall apart is head to head competitions. Since you are mainly talking pistols, that would be things like bowling pin matches, or even dueling trees. People should go to some of those, and see how they would fare. My club likes to welcome in new shooters, because we shoot for fun, but we've seen some newbies get offended. Even hearing some remarks like, "well if we would have known we were going to be shooting against professionals, we wouldn't have came".. The main thing is to get out there, and have fun. Regardless of what you are shooting.
Don't get offended easily. A lot of clubs and its members are there to help you get better, and enjoy your sport, but some disciplines of the shooting games are out for blood: When I was shooting trap for money, you had a lot of guys that would try to get into your head. You learn to not pay attention to those guys, or use that to your advantage. You learn that competing at that level is as much about the head game as it is actual skill. The guys that are getting too riled up, or nervous are the ones that aren't going to be bringing home the bacon. Just how it is. There's a big difference between shooting for money, shooting against yourself and shooting against others.
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
Reality's a bitch, that's for sure. Hard. Cold. She doesn't care what you think.
I firmly believe that you don't "rise to the occasion" at all. You default to your level of training and competence. And the sad truth is, the first gunfight you're in is gonna be like the first time you had sex: "it'll be over a lot quicker than you imagined. You won't be nearly as good as you thought you'd be, and the best possible outcome is that you'll be just good enough to get the chance to do it again."
Curious if you've been in a gunfight. I have not.
Yes, I have.
Edit: there's people with a LOT more two-way range time that agree with my OP here in this thread.
I used to pooh-pooh the idea of shooting in competitions. I have been to Gunsite 6-7 times, been through Tom Givens' Rangemaster classes (when he had his building in Memphis), took a class with Larry Vickers, and a good bit of local training.
On a whim just about a year ago I signed up to shoot a Steel Challenge match. It was quickly made apparent to me that there was a BIG difference between what I could do at home alone, and what I could do with people standing around watching, and a timer going off in my ear. It was a big awakening. Man it's a lonely feeling standing there going pew-pew-pew and them plates ain't ringing.
By taking training from some nationally-recognized trainers plus competing in a real match, you have done more than 90% of gun owners do. Good show!
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
Reality's a bitch, that's for sure. Hard. Cold. She doesn't care what you think.
I firmly believe that you don't "rise to the occasion" at all. You default to your level of training and competence. And the sad truth is, the first gunfight you're in is gonna be like the first time you had sex: "it'll be over a lot quicker than you imagined. You won't be nearly as good as you thought you'd be, and the best possible outcome is that you'll be just good enough to get the chance to do it again."
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
Reality's a bitch, that's for sure. Hard. Cold. She doesn't care what you think.
I firmly believe that you don't "rise to the occasion" at all. You default to your level of training and competence. And the sad truth is, the first gunfight you're in is gonna be like the first time you had sex: "it'll be over a lot quicker than you imagined. You won't be nearly as good as you thought you'd be, and the best possible outcome is that you'll be just good enough to get the chance to do it again."
I'm not good enough at math to be a good long range shooter. I'll watch Erik Cortna and my head explodes with the math calculations..🤯 Farthest buck I've killed was 668 several 500+. Even 500 is too far if you can't read wind in hunting conditions. Kudos to those that can.
Yeah that was a state sniper championship. We took top Mil/LE team and third overall. I have won one or two things. I try not to bring some things up here on the Fire as it turns into a measuring contest of sorts. These days I would be lucky to hit a hillside.
I can however say with certainty that those skills have translated into being calm under pressure/under fire during engagements. Knowing your capabilities has direct correlation. Knowing you have the ability to dominate a situation probably has saved a few idiots from being shot since I knew they did not stand a chance and giving them just a little bit more time to reconsider their choices.
I concur. My time in LE/SWAT don't compare at all to yours in Mil/LE, but it was enough to show me that there was a lot of utility to our guys who also participated in competitive shooting. The top guys on my SWAT team on ops were mostly competitive shooters as well as being dedicated to training on their own quite a bit. Some of our guys competed in long range rifle, some competed in USPSA or IDPA, some competed in 3-Gun, depending on their interests. Naturally they gravitated to the roles on the team where they were most suited.
I think it's silly to point out examples where a good hunter who's never shot in a USPSA match did poorly at his local club match, or a good 1000-yard high power rifle competitor who's done little hunting did poorly on an upland bird hunt. Each of these guys has skills in their primary shooting activity, and when they transition to a different shooting sport, there's gonna be a learning curve. There's no shame in it! But too often people try a new shooting sport and don't get much support when they start out, or are even subject to ridicule, so they shy away from doing it again. That's a sad commentary on the old hands, who should be making an extra effort to bring the new guys along until they gain some facility.
And as you point out, MS, just because you or I were at the top of our competitive game in the early Aughts, that don't mean we could hold a candle to the top guys today.
Life moves on, priorities change. I no longer have the time or inclination to reload 15,000+ rounds of pistol ammunition every winter to use in practice and competition during the April-September IDPA season, and the arthritis in my hands would be horrific if I were to go back to my 3-4X weekly practice sessions (at 250-300 rounds per session). But the lessons I learned shooting competitively in those days have stayed with me, and while I practice far less now, I still practice using established drills and a timer so I can measure my performance against a known standard.
I'd rather be hunting something than spending time shooting targets. YMMV.
How do you hit the targets?
It's been my experience that shooting well is a perishable skill. More so if you're doing it fast or under stress. I don't think, however, that he's saying he doesn't check zero before hunting, just that he doesn't spend a lot of time shooting paper or steel???
I don't shoot competition or shoot long range, but logic would tell me anything involving time, positioning from 1 shooting station to another, long range where breathing control, trigger control, reading wind, etc, is involved, I don't see how you could not be 100% correct.
However I will disagree in todays world where it seems like the way 99% of any shooting always done with people is with a scoped rifle, off a bench, for groups at 100 yds. For that type of shooting which is the way most people judge their accuracy and their rifles accuracy, it takes almost no practice once you've achieved any set goals. I can be off for long periods and 2-3 shots be back in the game when shooting bench groups at 100, or in some cases with some rifles, hit the same dot on the first shot I hit 8 mo's ago with it.
Field position shooting, or iron sight shooting whether it be rifle or pistol, requires practice to stay on point. At least for me it does. Most people spend no effort at either. Only thing that matters is groups on paper off a bench.
I think at least some here are confusing ‘need to’ with ‘it helps’.
I for one, do not believe a person needs to compete in any formal competition to be good or the best. I am sure doing so could be useful in ways but it isn’t a requisite.
As an aside, I personally can’t stand any type of formal competition. I have never competed in any kind of match and have zero clue what F class, USPSA, etc. is. It just doesn’t interest me but rock on if that’s your thing.
A lot of people don’t compete because it may reveal an untruth about their marksmanship ability!
I have no doubt this is correct…I will NOT argue that competition has advantages in a lot of ways but I don’t feel it is an absolute requisite to be the ‘best’ (whatever that is), for long range shooting/hunting anyhow. I absolutely can see a huge advantage to timed shooting and doing so under pressure for self defense or even offense scenarios.
I shake my head at those on here who constantly ask how many matches a person has shot, in order to back up (admittedly, pompous) claims. Some people just aren’t even mildly interested in competition and can still be really good. I am admittedly not the best shot in the world and that is something I need to work on but just don’t find enjoyment in shooting targets and can’t force myself to go to any sanctioned shooting event. That doesn’t mean I can’t make a tough shot reliably at an elk at last light on the last day, which is pressure in and of itself, to people like me. I know several really good competitors that have missed shots such as those, on more than one occasion.
I have no doubt this is correct…I will NOT argue that competition has advantages in a lot of ways but I don’t feel it is an absolute requisite to be the ‘best’ (whatever that is), for long range shooting/hunting anyhow. I absolutely can see a huge advantage to timed shooting and doing so under pressure for self defense or even offense scenarios.
I shake my head at those on here who constantly ask how many matches a person has shot, in order to back up (admittedly, pompous) claims. Some people just aren’t even mildly interested in competition and can still be really good. I am admittedly not the best shot in the world and that is something I need to work on but just don’t find enjoyment in shooting targets and can’t force myself to go to any sanctioned shooting event. That doesn’t mean I can’t make a tough shot reliably at an elk at last light on the last day, which is pressure in and of itself, to people like me. I know several really good competitors that have missed shots such as those, on more than one occasion.
The flip side of that coin is people claiming to be the best rifle shot ever, in the history of mankind, that never have and never will put those amazing skillz on display in competition. If you're that rare bird that flies high without competition honing your edge, you're probably not bragging about how good you are on here.
I have no doubt this is correct…I will NOT argue that competition has advantages in a lot of ways but I don’t feel it is an absolute requisite to be the ‘best’ (whatever that is),
.
It’s actually the entire reason competitions exist; to determine The Best
The flip side of that coin is people claiming to be the best rifle shot ever, in the history of mankind, that never have and never will put those amazing skillz on display in competition. If you're that rare bird that flies high without competition honing your edge, you're probably not bragging about how good you are on here.
I won't argue with that.
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
It’s actually the entire reason competitions exist; to determine The Best
Whether it’s golf, football, shooting etc…
Solid point and fair enough, but does that mean that the biggest white-tail ever taken by a hunter is in the record books?
I've got a Montana moose that (at least would have been) in the top 5 in the state, but I never had the desire to enter him.
For reference, you were in the Corps, right? If so, you have demonstrated better than basic marksmanship skills (unless you were Pizza Box, if so, sorry) and qual is basically a competition.
I think competition tends to force repetition and trigger time if your the type to invest in it and WANT to do better. Do the same trigger time and repetition without signing up for the local shoot - you're still likely to be a damned good shooter.
Long way of me saying - competition doesn't hurt but I don't put a ton of stock in a guy just because he also competes. It's not something that makes me respect someone immediately.
I've seen a lot of chitty competitors that remain chitty shots over years because they compete but do nothing else. No practice. A lot of guys saying "I won a tournament" but turns out they're "C" class, not HOA or Master's class. They were just the best "C" class which isn't hitting a ton of targets in the clay games.
I have no doubt this is correct…I will NOT argue that competition has advantages in a lot of ways but I don’t feel it is an absolute requisite to be the ‘best’ (whatever that is),
.
It’s actually the entire reason competitions exist; to determine The Best
Whether it’s golf, football, shooting etc…
The best on that given day over that given course of fire. Best all time for ever, regardless? Then you need to build a resume and that resume needs to be stretched out over various matches, disciplines and years against competitors with similar resumes.
I have no doubt this is correct…I will NOT argue that competition has advantages in a lot of ways but I don’t feel it is an absolute requisite to be the ‘best’ (whatever that is),
.
It’s actually the entire reason competitions exist; to determine The Best of those who choose to participate
Whether it’s golf, football, shooting etc…
I added my thoughts in bold.
It's kind of like bass fishing. Some really good fishermen who could win on any given day, but who want nothing to do with bass tournaments. (I don't blame them)
I think competition tends to force repetition and trigger time if your the type to invest in it and WANT to do better. Do the same trigger time and repetition without signing up for the local shoot - you're still likely to be a damned good shooter.
Long way of me saying - competition doesn't hurt but I don't put a ton of stock in a guy just because he also competes. It's not something that makes me respect someone immediately.
I've seen a lot of chitty competitors that remain chitty shots over years because they compete but do nothing else. No practice. A lot of guys saying "I won a tournament" but turns out they're "C" class, not HOA or Master's class. They were just the best "C" class which isn't hitting a ton of targets in the clay games.
PRS/IDPA/USPSA might be different.
You're not wrong. Simply competing doesn't mean much if you're last and are not putting in effort. And, conversely, telling everyone you're the best doesn't mean much if you won't back it up.
For reference, you were in the Corps, right? If so, you have demonstrated better than basic marksmanship skills (unless you were Pizza Box, if so, sorry) and qual is basically a competition.
Yes, I was in the Corps and I'd agree that rifle qual was a competition of sorts. I never did enjoy it, despite never qualifying as anything other than expert, which wasn't terribly difficult for someone who grew up shooting guns, or even those who listened to the instructors and applied the taught fundamentals. Too many rules, people saying when I can and can't shoot, etc. It just wasn't my thing and while I am sure it didn't hurt anything, I never felt it made me a better shot, either.
As an aside, I distinctly remember a drill instructor saying that recruits whom had fired a shotgun before were nearly always the worst rifle shots on Edson Range. I shotgunned the hell out of birds growing up and had no issue qualifying as expert.
Aside from the shooting skills, Competition will hone your OODA Loop. Naturally that will transfer over to 'real world'. If you can out-loop your adversary it will help you re-gain the initiative, and have the adversary off balance and reacting to you, instead of the other way around. (Mr Dicken did this very well in his food court engagement of the mass shooter).
For the record, I've never participated in formal shooting competition. I have gone through a couple of high intensity shooting schools put on by the USMC, and by the Diplomatic Security division of the State Department. I came out of both schools really "on my game" with the handguns especially. Those skills are very perishable though, and I've been just a casual shooter for the last 20+ years.
I've never had the money to train to the level I experienced in those formal shooting schools.
We literally shot around 1000 rounds per day for two weeks. Day, night, near, far, stationary, moving, in, around, and under vehicles, pop-up targets, moving through obstacles, instructors firing AKs close enough to have dirt flying in our faces from the impacts.
It was really good training, and all on the taxpayer's dime.......grin
The best on that given day over that given course of fire. Best all time for ever, regardless? Then you need to build a resume and that resume needs to be stretched out over various matches, disciplines and years against competitors with similar resumes.
The guy who wins a shoot named “National Championship” is recognized as the best in the Nation at the time
The guy who wins a shoot named “World Championship” is recognized as the best in the World at the time
Of course to be considered the best all time is cumulative
Actively competing improves the skill well beyond what simply practicing informally will do. Anyone who denies that fact is ignorant and lying to themselves for some weird reasons
I've never had the money to train to the level I experienced in those formal shooting schools.
We literally shot around 1000 rounds per day for two weeks. Day, night, near, far, stationary, moving, in, around, and under vehicles, pop-up targets, moving through obstacles, instructors firing AKs close enough to have dirt flying in our faces from the impacts.
It was really good training, and all on the taxpayer's dime.......grin
I dont have any problem with my tax money going for that....thank you....bob
The best on that given day over that given course of fire. Best all time for ever, regardless? Then you need to build a resume and that resume needs to be stretched out over various matches, disciplines and years against competitors with similar resumes.
The guy who wins a shoot named “National Championship” is recognized as the best in the Nation at the time
The guy who wins a shoot named “World Championship” is recognized as the best in the World at the time
Of course to be considered the best all time is cumulative
Actively competing improves the skill well beyond what simply practicing informally will do. Anyone who denies that fact is ignorant and lying to themselves for some weird reasons
If you have no ambition, practice is useless (or informal) and so is competition useless. I've been to some of the same exact clays shoots you have and I know as well as you do - there are a lot of people there that are there to simply "have a good time on a weekend" and there are those there to compete and advance. Both are competing, both will have wildly different results at the end of a 10 year career. It's up to the individual to determine what they want to do within the sport but the blanket idea that you'll be better just because you compete is bullchit.
Unless you compete with intention, the same as practicing with intention - you'll just be spending money.
If you have no ambition, practice is useless (or informal) and so is competition useless. I've been to some of the same exact clays shoots you have and I know as well as you do - there are a lot of people there that are there to simply "have a good time on a weekend" and there are those there to compete and advance. Both are competing, both will have wildly different results at the end of a 10 year career. It's up to the individual to determine what they want to do within the sport but the blanket idea that you'll be better just because you compete is bullchit.
Unless you compete with intention, the same as practicing with intention - you'll just be spending money.
The original post was directed at people who, specifically, state they are "good" at (insert discipline here) shooting and don't compete. Nobody's arguing that there are not people who go to competitions and just have fun. Heck, I'm that guy with a shotgun. I'm completely and utterly not good, and don't care enough to practice, but will go with the guys to Horse and Hunt and have a great time shooting clays. I'm not saying I'm the best clay shooter to ever live, then avoiding shooting a competitive round of clays.
If you have no ambition, practice is useless (or informal) and so is competition useless. I've been to some of the same exact clays shoots you have and I know as well as you do - there are a lot of people there that are there to simply "have a good time on a weekend" and there are those there to compete and advance. Both are competing, both will have wildly different results at the end of a 10 year career. It's up to the individual to determine what they want to do within the sport but the blanket idea that you'll be better just because you compete is bullchit.
Unless you compete with intention, the same as practicing with intention - you'll just be spending money.
The original post was directed at people who, specifically, state they are "good" at (insert discipline here) shooting and don't compete. Nobody's arguing that there are not people who go to competitions and just have fun. Heck, I'm that guy with a shotgun. I'm completely and utterly not good, and don't care enough to practice, but will go with the guys to Horse and Hunt and have a great time shooting clays. I'm not saying I'm the best clay shooter to ever live, then avoiding shooting a competitive round of clays.
I get that and I understand your point but you can't watch a guy say shooting eggs at 500 yards and say he's not "good" at long range because he didn't compete or one can't get that level of proficiency without competing.
I get that and I understand your point but you can't watch a guy say shooting eggs at 500 yards and say he's not "good" at long range because he didn't compete or one can't get that level of proficiency without competing.
Well, for one, we don't know how many takes that took. Like a reality show, the prep makes a huge difference, and we don't get to see it. Seems odd though that someone who cares enough to keep gigs of copy paste screen shots available to post would pass up the opportunity to shine on any big stage.......
There's a big difference between participating and competing.
I used to run a few 10K runs, but I didn't consider myself competing. It was just a good time with friends, and drinking after.
I can see where that same concept applies to participating in the local shooting comps.
I would agree and those that go out and COMPETE probably have a robust practice path then too. Practice builds the shooter, comps display the fruit of that practice.
The "who's the best long range shooter" is playing out almost exactly how I've seen it go with handguns. People that say they're "good" and have skillz, only to show up to one USPSA match and never go back after getting smoked. They'll say stuff like "games ain't gunfights" and lie to themselves that shooting fast and accurate from the draw, on the clock, isn't relevant to "the real world." ironically, most saying that stuff have never been in a gunfight.
I will make the assertion that it is a very rare bird that is at the sharp end of any shooting discipline and doesn't use competition to hone skills. People on here actually act like being a top PRS shooter wouldn't help immensely with long range hunting or being a master in USPSA wouldn't help in a gunfight. That's absurd on it's face.
Anyhow, if you haven't ever gone out and competed, do yourself a favor and do it. You don't need the best gear (I shoot USPSA with what I carry) and testing your skills against others and a clock is always a good thing.
Goalie, thanks for the post and this thread, good discussion.
I did some competitions(ipsc.uspsa etc.) a long time ago and I've had the opportunity to take in some personal self defense/combat classes from Gunsite and others so have at least have some experience in both. That being said I think the important point to be made is maintaining proper context when using competition as a training aid for self defense. I know, that's obvious dumb ass! but....Individuals like Mackay and others who have had the training/experience of combat understand the does and don'ts that occur in lethal confrontations and keep the competition scenario in context with regard to that end. People who have only competed and not had any formal training in real world self defense and lethal confrontation may potentially be at a disadvantage in that regard. What may be "good" habits for competition may be bad for particular lethal scenarios., and may even get you killed. IMO this is where I think some of the argument (albeit mislead) leads to criticizing the use of competition as a tool for self defense.
One of my pet peeves when doing competitions was having to walk around with an empty gun in my holster until my turn at the starting line and only then given permission to load my weapon. Yes, I know, it's the rules, safety liability etc.etc. The problem is creating a habit of assuming the gun is either loaded, or unloaded, . Being taught to press check your weapon to confirm either was drilled into me during my formal self defense class time, not so much at competitions. They were more worried more about having an empty chamber than anything else (Rule 1 screams loud!).
I understand that competitors should have their heads screwed on straight and know the status of their weapon at all times but if people haven't taken the time to get real world combat training to get the really important stuff burned into their brains they may not realize the gravity of screwing that up even just once. I've heard of at least one prominent comp. shooter who lost his 1st place position during a big shoot and missed out on some serious coin because he forget to load and make ready by charging his weapon after he came to the line and after the buzzer sounded. The loudest sound in the world is a click when you expected a bang, even more so if there is lead coming your way. It hurts to miss out on a multi thousand $ purse, more so if you get shot because of a simple brain fart.
This video from Larry Vickers makes the point a little better as far maintaining context. If you don't understand the difference you may be in for a big surprise... I'm all for competition shooting and whole heartedly believe in its real world applications, that should be obvious, we just need to understand and appreciate the context of each and how the differences should be applied. Don't let the art overshadow the martial.
The problem is that without competition, there is little/no motivation to improve once one attains a minimal level of competence.
Absolutely right about that. I used to shoot USPSA, NRA Action, IDPA, every week, and did that for 15-20 years! I was pretty good back then. Then, I got burned out and quit that, took up varmint shooting for awhile.
I recently started shooting pistols again, and went to a local match. I got my clocks cleaned thoroughly and completely, but I keep going back. I have "infirmities" now, and can't do the things I used to,, but I AM getting better now. Skills get rusty if you don't keep them up. It's still fun, and challenging.
Well, when I was 20, a buddy and I were invited to shoot skeet. Neither of us had ever done that before but we had been hunting and shooting since we were old enough to hold up a gun. I had the age group champion shooting with us and helping me out. High house, low house, doubles, etc. after the second stand, he suddenly got pissed and wouldn’t say much more. In the end, I broke 23 birds with an old Mossberg 500 and my buddy broke 22 with his Marlin which tied the ‘champion’ shooting a Citori. He was absolutely convinced we were experienced shooters and were sandbagging. Nope. You don’t have to be involved in an organization to be a good shot so put that garbage argument away.
I shoot in competition regularly and have done so for the last 20+ years. That includes IDPA. USPSA, 3 Gun etc. I mostly do it because it's fun, but I think there are some real benefits. I also generally practice one day a week with a handgun and regularly do dry fire and air gun practice at home.
I think the main thing you get from competition is learning how to shoot under stress. Getting used to shooting under stress is especially useful for self defense situations where stress levels are going to be very high. I've never had to use a firearm in self defense, but I have some confidence that I could do so effectively if the need arose.
Of course, competition doesn't necessarily teach you the proper use of tactics, and I've also trained at a number of schools that teach tactics. For self defense purposes you need both pure shooting skills and an understanding of tactics.
The more experience you have, the better prepared you are to deal with difficult situations. And I would say that applies to hunting too. An intense hunt can involve plenty of stress when you get to a difficult shot.
There's no one way to do things, but I think there are real advantages to shooting in competition if you have the inclination to do so.
There are a lot of good posts here. I agree with getting as much training and experience as one’s time and budget allow, and with engaging in relevant problem-solving competitions when possible. My experience cannot compare to the experience of many who are posting here.
I do want to add a personal caveat concerning some of the posts about reverting to training when bad things happen. It’s anecdotal, but I have known people (3X for one guy) who were terrible shooters but who delivered in ways that they and nobody else would have expected when bad things happened. They were not gunfighters, but they were fighters who had guns. They also had a lot of experience in stressful, life-threatening situations that did not involve shooting, but where quick judgment and action were important. Some may discount such occurrences as pure luck, but I am not confident of that.
I think the same type of thing also arises in criminal elements who don’t get any firearms training but somehow manage to land good hits on good guys without resorting to spray and pray. Again, I don’t believe it’s all luck.
I think it would be a bad idea for anyone to fall into the trap of overly-discounting the capabilities of untrained or poorly trained people when talking about fighters who have guns.
To be "The Best" at shooting then one has to enter competitions and win against all comers in that doctrine.
There will be only one "The Best" and it's time dependant.
Now, as 24hr Campfire is a hunting website, we must admit that being 'The Best" as a shooting doctrine hardly means you will be great or even good at hunting.
A semi skilled shooter will bring home more game than "The Best" shooter who can't find any game to shoot.
Competition is a great way to introduce some stress into your shooting and make you a better shot, which is one part of being a better hunter.
I believe the same would be true of a gunfight. The better you can shoot under stress the better your odds of winning, but if you get flanked all the shooting skill in the world won't fix that problem.
I was never any sort of bad tactical guru faster than Leathem more accurate than Plaxco and better hair than Barnhart shooter but I've been to John Shaws Midsouth school twice(anybody old enough to remember John?). And I got my screen nic because the s&w L frame guys thought my 1911 was "unreliable" and the young Glock guys thought I was "old dangerous unreliable" and the Instructor kept saying that my 8 shot 1911 was " an old handgun for average shooters not near as reliable as my Beretta 92." Jim McCullough built that 1911 for me with Colt/Wilson parts and a Clark barrel seems Dave the average guy shooter went through 16 other shooters to win the shoot off after training including the instructor.
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