Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Competition vs "real world"

Yes, I was in the Corps and I'd agree that rifle qual was a competition of sorts. I never did enjoy it, despite never qualifying as anything other than expert, which wasn't terribly difficult for someone who grew up shooting guns, or even those who listened to the instructors and applied the taught fundamentals. Too many rules, people saying when I can and can't shoot, etc. It just wasn't my thing and while I am sure it didn't hurt anything, I never felt it made me a better shot, either.

As an aside, I distinctly remember a drill instructor saying that recruits whom had fired a shotgun before were nearly always the worst rifle shots on Edson Range. I shotgunned the hell out of birds growing up and had no issue qualifying as expert.

Aside from the shooting skills, Competition will hone your OODA Loop. Naturally that will transfer over to 'real world'. If you can out-loop your adversary it will help you re-gain the initiative, and have the adversary off balance and reacting to you, instead of the other way around. (Mr Dicken did this very well in his food court engagement of the mass shooter).

For the record, I've never participated in formal shooting competition. I have gone through a couple of high intensity shooting schools put on by the USMC, and by the Diplomatic Security division of the State Department. I came out of both schools really "on my game" with the handguns especially. Those skills are very perishable though, and I've been just a casual shooter for the last 20+ years.

It's also true that under stress, most people will do what they have been training to do.

If there hasn't been any training.......well.....

I've never had the money to train to the level I experienced in those formal shooting schools.

We literally shot around 1000 rounds per day for two weeks. Day, night, near, far, stationary, moving, in, around, and under vehicles, pop-up targets, moving through obstacles, instructors firing AKs close enough to have dirt flying in our faces from the impacts.

It was really good training, and all on the taxpayer's dime.......grin

The guy who wins a shoot named “National Championship” is recognized as the best in the Nation at the time

The guy who wins a shoot named “World Championship” is recognized as the best in the World at the time

Of course to be considered the best all time is cumulative

Actively competing improves the skill well beyond what simply practicing informally will do. Anyone who denies that fact is ignorant and lying to themselves for some weird reasons

I dont have any problem with my tax money going for that....thank you....bob

If you have no ambition, practice is useless (or informal) and so is competition useless. I've been to some of the same exact clays shoots you have and I know as well as you do - there are a lot of people there that are there to simply "have a good time on a weekend" and there are those there to compete and advance. Both are competing, both will have wildly different results at the end of a 10 year career. It's up to the individual to determine what they want to do within the sport but the blanket idea that you'll be better just because you compete is bullchit.

Unless you compete with intention, the same as practicing with intention - you'll just be spending money.

The original post was directed at people who, specifically, state they are "good" at (insert discipline here) shooting and don't compete. Nobody's arguing that there are not people who go to competitions and just have fun. Heck, I'm that guy with a shotgun. I'm completely and utterly not good, and don't care enough to practice, but will go with the guys to Horse and Hunt and have a great time shooting clays. I'm not saying I'm the best clay shooter to ever live, then avoiding shooting a competitive round of clays.

I get that and I understand your point but you can't watch a guy say shooting eggs at 500 yards and say he's not "good" at long range because he didn't compete or one can't get that level of proficiency without competing.

Well, for one, we don't know how many takes that took. Like a reality show, the prep makes a huge difference, and we don't get to see it. Seems odd though that someone who cares enough to keep gigs of copy paste screen shots available to post would pass up the opportunity to shine on any big stage.......

There's a big difference between participating and competing.

I used to run a few 10K runs, but I didn't consider myself competing. It was just a good time with friends, and drinking after.

I can see where that same concept applies to participating in the local shooting comps.

John Burns?

I would agree and those that go out and COMPETE probably have a robust practice path then too. Practice builds the shooter, comps display the fruit of that practice.

Goalie, thanks for the post and this thread, good discussion.

I did some competitions(ipsc.uspsa etc.) a long time ago and I've had the opportunity to take in some personal self defense/combat classes from Gunsite and others so have at least have some experience in both. That being said I think the important point to be made is maintaining proper context when using competition as a training aid for self defense. I know, that's obvious dumb ass! but....Individuals like Mackay and others who have had the training/experience of combat understand the does and don'ts that occur in lethal confrontations and keep the competition scenario in context with regard to that end. People who have only competed and not had any formal training in real world self defense and lethal confrontation may potentially be at a disadvantage in that regard. What may be "good" habits for competition may be bad for particular lethal scenarios., and may even get you killed. IMO this is where I think some of the argument (albeit mislead) leads to criticizing the use of competition as a tool for self defense.

One of my pet peeves when doing competitions was having to walk around with an empty gun in my holster until my turn at the starting line and only then given permission to load my weapon. Yes, I know, it's the rules, safety liability etc.etc. The problem is creating a habit of assuming the gun is either loaded, or unloaded, . Being taught to press check your weapon to confirm either was drilled into me during my formal self defense class time, not so much at competitions. They were more worried more about having an empty chamber than anything else (Rule 1 screams loud!).

I understand that competitors should have their heads screwed on straight and know the status of their weapon at all times but if people haven't taken the time to get real world combat training to get the really important stuff burned into their brains they may not realize the gravity of screwing that up even just once. I've heard of at least one prominent comp. shooter who lost his 1st place position during a big shoot and missed out on some serious coin because he forget to load and make ready by charging his weapon after he came to the line and after the buzzer sounded. The loudest sound in the world is a click when you expected a bang, even more so if there is lead coming your way. It hurts to miss out on a multi thousand $ purse, more so if you get shot because of a simple brain fart.

This video from Larry Vickers makes the point a little better as far maintaining context. If you don't understand the difference you may be in for a big surprise... I'm all for competition shooting and whole heartedly believe in its real world applications, that should be obvious, we just need to understand and appreciate the context of each and how the differences should be applied. Don't let the art overshadow the martial.

Absolutely right about that. I used to shoot USPSA, NRA Action, IDPA, every week, and did that for 15-20 years! I was pretty good back then. Then, I got burned out and quit that, took up varmint shooting for awhile.

I recently started shooting pistols again, and went to a local match. I got my clocks cleaned thoroughly and completely, but I keep going back. I have "infirmities" now, and can't do the things I used to,, but I AM getting better now. Skills get rusty if you don't keep them up. It's still fun, and challenging.

Well, when I was 20, a buddy and I were invited to shoot skeet. Neither of us had ever done that before but we had been hunting and shooting since we were old enough to hold up a gun. I had the age group champion shooting with us and helping me out. High house, low house, doubles, etc. after the second stand, he suddenly got pissed and wouldn’t say much more. In the end, I broke 23 birds with an old Mossberg 500 and my buddy broke 22 with his Marlin which tied the ‘champion’ shooting a Citori. He was absolutely convinced we were experienced shooters and were sandbagging. Nope. You don’t have to be involved in an organization to be a good shot so put that garbage argument away.

I shoot in competition regularly and have done so for the last 20+ years. That includes IDPA. USPSA, 3 Gun etc. I mostly do it because it's fun, but I think there are some real benefits. I also generally practice one day a week with a handgun and regularly do dry fire and air gun practice at home.

I think the main thing you get from competition is learning how to shoot under stress. Getting used to shooting under stress is especially useful for self defense situations where stress levels are going to be very high. I've never had to use a firearm in self defense, but I have some confidence that I could do so effectively if the need arose.

Of course, competition doesn't necessarily teach you the proper use of tactics, and I've also trained at a number of schools that teach tactics. For self defense purposes you need both pure shooting skills and an understanding of tactics.

The more experience you have, the better prepared you are to deal with difficult situations. And I would say that applies to hunting too. An intense hunt can involve plenty of stress when you get to a difficult shot.

There's no one way to do things, but I think there are real advantages to shooting in competition if you have the inclination to do so.

It's an argument that literally nobody in this thread has made.

There are a lot of good posts here. I agree with getting as much training and experience as one’s time and budget allow, and with engaging in relevant problem-solving competitions when possible. My experience cannot compare to the experience of many who are posting here.

I do want to add a personal caveat concerning some of the posts about reverting to training when bad things happen. It’s anecdotal, but I have known people (3X for one guy) who were terrible shooters but who delivered in ways that they and nobody else would have expected when bad things happened. They were not gunfighters, but they were fighters who had guns. They also had a lot of experience in stressful, life-threatening situations that did not involve shooting, but where quick judgment and action were important. Some may discount such occurrences as pure luck, but I am not confident of that.

I think the same type of thing also arises in criminal elements who don’t get any firearms training but somehow manage to land good hits on good guys without resorting to spray and pray. Again, I don’t believe it’s all luck.

I think it would be a bad idea for anyone to fall into the trap of overly-discounting the capabilities of untrained or poorly trained people when talking about fighters who have guns.

It's obvious I am "The Best" at living rent free.

To be "The Best" at shooting then one has to enter competitions and win against all comers in that doctrine.

There will be only one "The Best" and it's time dependant.

Now, as 24hr Campfire is a hunting website, we must admit that being 'The Best" as a shooting doctrine hardly means you will be great or even good at hunting.

A semi skilled shooter will bring home more game than "The Best" shooter who can't find any game to shoot.

Competition is a great way to introduce some stress into your shooting and make you a better shot, which is one part of being a better hunter.

I believe the same would be true of a gunfight. The better you can shoot under stress the better your odds of winning, but if you get flanked all the shooting skill in the world won't fix that problem.