to ai or not a 25/06

AI

Well...depends on what it is or is going to be used for.

fast and long

Richethec1: My advice - don't mess with a nearly perfect thing!
With todays modern powders and bullets I see NO need what so ever to go to that extreme and expense for modest gain. I know I wouldn't even consider doing an "A.I." job on either of 25/06 Rifles.
Best of luck to you with whichever you decide to do.
And welcome to the fire.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

AI then....if you don't mind fiddly farting around.


As MuleDeer will be along shortly to point out...you don't gain much from AI on a 25-06. He is not wrong either.


But........stay calm and Loony on I say.

No point in it- - - -you can overpressure that big -06 case with any number of modern powders without blowing it out to a fractionally bigger volume. AI is a solution looking for a problem to solve these days. Back when the only powder available for reloading was military surplus stuff sold from a 20 pound keg in a paper bag, AI might have made sense. Now the concept is as obsolete as a chastity belt.

No

Totally worth it.

Get a 270

Gay

I wouldn’t AI it.
Some gain on paper, but very unlikely you will see that gain in using the rifle.
If you want a fast .25 cartridge, get a 257 wby.

Wasn’t it P.O Ackley that said that in his experience and opinion the 25/06 was the ideal candidate to be AI’d? I recall reading that he thought it was the one that received the most benefit in performance from that modification.

It all depends on how much you mind trimming brass.

Pretty sure he claimed the 7mm Mauser AI was his best effort.

And the .250-3000

WHY ?

If you handload, everything should be AI if the case has any amount of significant taper.

Because it is there.

Why not, what's the disadvantage?

Pac Nor builds barrels every day

25-06 is over bore to start with

My AI experience

260 & 223

I wouldn’t. The .25/06 Remington needs nothing. Top performer.
Dave had in in a BDL. I swear I saw deer hit the ground before I heard the gun crack.
When I got home from the Army, he was bitching that it was shot out, because I wouldn’t hold a group.
I took it home and cleaned it with copper solvent over a couple nights. When we shot it that weekend, it was still a tack driver!
Somebody broke in and stole it.
Reon

Well, with this one you are right in my wheel house. I love to shoot quite a variety of cartridges but, along with .284, the .257 long ago became my fave. And, after everything from .250 Savage and .257 Roberts up through .257 Weatherby, the 25/06 is tops.

All things considered, and listing possible gains/losses - I can't see any reason to do that.

Yep.

I love AIs, and that one could give you marked improvement. Plus case life increases. Plus they look cool as heck.

Yes and double gay

Generally speaking, if you take a 7x57 and AI it then load it 70k psi. It will give better performance against the anemic 45k psi factory loads............

The real benefit of the Ackley Improved design is more stable brass , less trimming, otherwise its just exercise.

If I was building one, from scratch with no dies brass loads…. I’d AI and fast twist it.


A 257 on the cheap, and better(at ranges longer than I shoot)

Otherwise, I’d let it go.

I used a 25-06 as a year around truck gun for 10 or 15 years. 85 BTs & 100 partitions. Lots of critters died to it. Can't remember ever once wishing I had another 80 - 100 feet per second, shorter barrel life & a few hundred less dollars in my pocket.

I have a friend in Colorado who has killed around a dozen elk at various ranges. He has used his .25-06 on all of them with no problems. He uses factory ammo.

FWIW.

L.W.

257 Roberts, also applicable to 6mm and 7 Mauser.

Had 2 25-06s they have there place in long range work but don’t fit the bill in my brushy neck o the woods

Myself I would leave it as factory. It will do what ever you need it to do with out the extra 150 FPS. I mainly use 100 grainers for my best results. It is your gun you do what YOU want with it. I do not see ant great advantage.

This. At 65,000 psi in either cartridge, the AI might give you an extra 25 fps.

I had my 25-06 for about three years and 100 cases for it. (necked down GI 30-06 brass) I shot those cases about six times each year with no trimming and no annealing. They went with the rifle, loaded, when I sold it.

My buddy has the AI version. It’s one of the most accurate hunting rifles I’ve ever had the pleasure of shooting. Had it out on a private ranch spotlighting jackrabbits. I just aimed at the eye and it was absolute carnage. His runs a couple hundred fps faster than a standard 25-06

I have the standard 25-06 and shoot 75 gr Vmax for varmints. My oldest boy shot his first buck with it; a nice 4x4 muley. I took it coyote hunting with a couple friends; one of which is a world-class coyote hunter. Won lots of contests and all that. He saw me pull that out of the case and chastised me for bringing such a big gun. He brought a 22 Hornet. I was living in NE Nevada at the time and he really wanted a pelt from there for some reason. Well, we called a trio in but they hung up at about 400 yards. One sat down between two sage brushes and I let her have it! My friend jumps up and heads out to the dog as me and the other guy are laughing (he’s the one with the AI). We’re watching him through the binos as he picks it up and he’s cussing like a sailor and shaking his head as he’s walking back with it. He gets back, and shows me the softball size hole in the offside and tosses it into the truck still swearing about all the sewing he’s gonna have to do. I get 3800 fps out of those little vmaxes and they tear [bleep] up when they hit!

I used to have lots of Ackley guns but have kinda gotten away from them the last ten years. I’ve gotten kinda lazy about case forming and all that. Still have a 22/250, a couple 243s and a 6mm Rem version tho. Either way you go, you won’t be disappointed. It’s a shame the 25-06 isn’t more popular. Darn good round!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^°

this

I have a .25-06 AI Encore barrel, 26” with a VXiii 3.5-10 on it. Killed a lot of stuff with it for several years including longest ever shot on a caribou; one and done with a 100 grain TSX at around 400 yards. It’s been on inactive reserves for about 15 years now, just got it out a few months ago, started loading and fireforming some new brass, going to play with different bullets. Maybe I’ll kill some more stuff with it.

I have no opinion one way or the other whether it’s “worth it.” A lot of the stuff we do with rifles won’t stand close scrutiny under the light of pragmatism. Those AI cases sure do look cool though.


If I were to get another.25-06, I would be very happy with the regular version ( which I was when I did have one. If I wanted the fastest.257 I could get, I would go .257 Weatherby.

I have a few AIed cartridges and they do have an improvement on the parent.

I also have a 270,280,35whelen and a 25-06 and if i hold out a 30-06.

These have done everything i have asked from them and don't believe i would gain anything.

But that said it's your rifle so it is up to you,if you do get the twist that stabilizes the 130+- bullets.

Good luck

Wow, 4 pages into this thread and nobody has awaken Big Stick from his slumber

That’s a blessing in itself.

Don’t AI, but if you must scratch the itch, rebarrel with a slightly faster twist rate. Still get the same performance with traditional weight projectiles, but open the door for some of the heavier for caliber options if you wanted.

I'm with Dillonbuck:

"If I was building one, from scratch with no dies, or brass or loads…. I’d AI and fast twist it. Otherwise, I'd let it go."

If you already have dies, enjoy what you have and appreciate spending that extra $150-200 on powder, primers and bullets as you happily go forth and slay beasts. The improvement in the 25-06 AI compared to the factory chambering (at the same pressure level) is minimal, according to P O himself, and making it more overbore limits your powder selection. The reference I found, besides P O A, says a 100g load can go 8.4% faster in the AI version; that puts it 10th on the scale, behind the old tapered cartridges (25-35 WCF, 30-40 Krag, 250 Savage, 6.5 X 55 Swede, 30-30,7 X 57, 30 H & H, etc.). Much the same increase in velocity can be obtained by using longer barrels or boosting the pressure to unknown/unsafe levels, which is much more difficult to measure than velocity for us amateurs in the field.

That said, I did build a 280 AI from parts and I don't regret it, but it still isn't a 7mmRM when the chronograph whispers to my wallet. And a 257 Bob AI from 1970, before we really knew that the 25-06 was gonna fly.

If it were me:

1. If the goal were "fast and long" as stated by the OP, I wouldn't build a .25 of any flavor. But if it is a from-scratch build, I'd go AI. No reason not to.

2. If we're talking a pre-existing rifle, I'd leave it alone and put the money you save toward a 6.5 Creed or even a .243 shooting good bullets.

But, admittedly, I'm no expert; I'm just saying what I'd do.

Best of luck in your decision!

Don't tell all of the deer my uncle has killed under 50 yards since 1978 in the timber they were killed by something that supposedly doesn't work in the brush.

Anything... 06... is a simple and basic round.

Couple of years ago... GreenTop was selling 25-06 at $5 a box just to get ride of it. Pallets of it.

Pure stupidity...

It is a fine round.

Yes, I hope Mule Deer does chime in on this subject. I always learn something new (history, handloading, ballistics, bullet performance, etc...) whenever he lends his knowledge and experience on such matters. Kind of like listening to or reading through a PhD dissertation on the 25-06 Remington/25 Niedner/25 Whelen!

Guys like Mr. Adolph Otto "AO" Niedner, COL Townsend Whelen, Mr. Arthur Savage (250-3000), Mr. Ned Roberts (257 Roberts), and Mr. Roy Weatherby (257 Weatherby Magnum), et. al. was the quarter bore cartridges developers/loonies back in the day. Cool stuff!

Btw, some of you gentlemen will remember Mr. Bob Milek championing the 25-06 Remington in some of his outdoor/gun magazine writings throughout the 1970s and 1980s.

i got this from an administrator from another site.

" The "bigger issue" in the pressure discussion is what was actually being tested, and a previous post touches on the other issue; What is max charges.

1 - For a period of time, Copper Crushers were reported in PSI, rather than CUP(copper units of pressure). Then we moved on to piezo transducers, and strain guages for what is known to the world as PSI. For a somewhat large amount of time after the system change, the military was listing "PSI" but were actually measuring CUP. The system change happened after the major players in SAAMI(Federal, Remington, etc) did some very carefully controlled tests. What they found was that Copper Crushers are very inaccurate when used over @ 45,000 psi. Inaccurate to the tune of 15-20,000 psi swings of actual pressure! I know Denton has done some correlation between CUP and PSI, but the inaccurate reporting will limit you to correlation only. So in the 270 as an example, what you *thought* was a safe pressure, very well may have been quite hot. Such as a test proved when conducted on one of Ackley's loads in his rifle.

2 - Max load discrepency. This is another old wives tales from folks who don't fully understand what Canister-grade powder is, or what the reloading world is. Canister grade powder is blended to a range of nominal specs. However MOST of the brands that you know of, don't even list what those specs are; and they don't actually build the powder anyhow. So there is a VERY good reason why everyone selling powder cautions you to "Drop loads 10%, when switching lots". Powder isn't a fixed, never changing animal, so A load in grains will never produce exactly identical results; because the powder is different. In the extruded world, powder has it's burning rate controlled by Geometry, and so is loaded by volume to account for said lot variations. Grains don't account for this, which will change case fill volume and further aggrevate burning rate differences. Another reason why they tell you to drop your charges between lots.

Unless you have a Pressure Trace or similar accurate strain system, the only reasonable close way for the average joe to accurately measure pressure, is against the velocity. People CONSTANTLY forget/don't know/ignore this. They use the same charge in grains across different lots of powder, and then write that they have a "fast barrel" because the velocity is higher. There certainly CAN be fast barrels, but 98% of the time it is because they are simply over-pressure. Most good data is fired in a SAAMI minimum spec components, which will be more efficient and produce higher velocities, than a mass produced rifle."


i used a 22-250AI in a 27" barrel several years ago. i loaded 75gr Amax and different powder trying to get 150 - 200fps faster. the max i could do is 110fps faster. 50-70fps faster is average. i sold it and the Ackley really was disappointed. the only thing good about it was the AI brass, you never needed to trim it after i fireformed it.

The original cases had a bit of body taper and less shoulder angle for reasons. Feeding and reliability. AI's grow less and need less timing so that's an advantage. I also think every case should be fired in its chamber once before serious loading begins anyways.

That said as I mess around with my 280 ai's I often miss the perfect feeding and one more in the mag of my old custom KS 280. Should have kept that rifle. If it had been a bit faster twist it would have been close to perfect for me. One day I'll build my perfect rifle and it will likely be a 700LA clone in plain 280 with an 8 twist 22" shorter at about .600" at the muzzle. Maybe a brux #2.

Bb

I just don’t see a 25/06 as a winning proposition currently. It’s cool for sure though

If you handload or reload yes to AI if you don't it's a moot point. A 25-06AI is not to far off a 257WBY, I get over 4000 fps with 87 Vmax's and 4200 FPS with 70 Blitz Kings from a 12 twist 30" barrel.

Had myself the same conundrum about 5 years ago, but I didn't own a 25-06 yet either. Wanted a 1/4 bore, so I bought a 257 wby MKV and was finished with that.

I have 30-06 AI, 7MM-08 AI, 280 AI and a 6.5x55 AI, never once have I had a feeding issue.

But then I also have a 25 WSSM, that many say has feeding issues, which I have never experienced

I wouldn’t, fine the way it is. I have a 6.5mm-06, like hell out of it.

If it's a 06 case you sould AI it, my stable 22-06AI 6-06AI 25-06AI 30-06AI

After many many years of saving up parts....I had a 6mmRem improved built.

They are interesting. Plain and simple.

Barrel length?

It's just under 27.

Wowsers.

If I had to do it again...I would use a med sporter Lilja barrel.


As it happens my best friend give me a heavy hart blank so that's what I used.

Lucky I am a great big sonofabitch and can handle about anything.

Was there a reason you didn't chop it back?

Should get impressive velocities though. Hell of a coyote rig with a 70 grain bullet at max speed.

Upon reading through the whole thread so far, one might suggest the OP drop the idea and get someone to make him a necked down .26 Nosler rig..................



in the interest of Loonying on.

I didn't know Hornady had an 87 grain V-Max for the .257 caliber.

This!

Sorry EOMP the 87gr Vmax's were for the 6-06AI the 25-06AI were 87gr Spire Point.

The regular 25-06 has allways got the job done in a 24"..PO Ackley said it was allready overbore. Did have a 22" barreled xl-7 Marlin it shot ok but muzzleblast was rough..mb

NO!
I have a 26 inch No5 contour stainless fluted match barrel on mine. It will break 3500fps with 100's and 3175fps with 120's, a bit more with the medium weights.
If you need more, its in your head and will not be realized in the field.

Eww, that's gay !

Right ?

I have loaded for 4 Weatherby .257's since the 1970's, 3 Mark V's and one Vanguard. One barrel I documented every load that went through it.
At 800 rounds the naked eye could see throat wear.
At 900 rounds the groups were opening up.
At 95 rounds the groups became unacceptable in the 3-4" range at 100 yards.
At 1008 rounds I had the barrel pulled.

A .25/06 I expect to triple that round count at least. Am documenting a barrel now but so far, it is still shooting very well, meaning under a half inch with preferred loads. When I can't shoot that well any longer, I am sure that barrel will still able to out perform me.

I'm a quarterbore fan and see little reason to AI the .25-06, however the. 257R is very much improved by it.

If you pick the barrel plan on the heavy bullets currently available and expect more. Twisting it for at least 135s.

I've used mine on lots of coyotes with the 75gr Hornady hp, deer with a variety of bullets, and even elk with 120gr. The .25-06 is very versatile and easy to load for.

The one good thing about having an AI barrel, is you can still shoot factory ammo and start collecting formed brass for when you do start reloading of find some one who does. Also you can sell your formed brass shooters will pay good money for formed brass. I had this Remington 260 that was shot out and did a setback AKA rethroat and I AI it while it was on the lathe, it never shot as good as when it was Sammi spec, it actually shot best while I was fireforming the brass so I kept forming brass and trading the formed brass for reloading components. I have found you loose about 10% velocity while fireforming brass so I would always up the load while forming, we can't go loosing velocity now can we, one thing that was for sure the cases did not need a second cycle to form them, my buddy use to say laughing he could see the tooling marks from the chamber imprinted on the cases.LOL

No AI. I have shot mine since 1976, accounted for 3 elk, maybe half dozen mule deer (one at 600 yards), 10-12 antelope, a Florida hog, and a couple coyotes. Once I forgot to bring my reloads, and found some Remingtons in a sporting goods store in Kremmling Co. on my way to Clark. Thankful for that. Already good enough to shoot the eye out of an Eagle at 200 paces, so I see no need to AI it.

6.5-06 is what you are after. Better bullet selection. Longer barrel life. Excellent long range chambering. Still not a Swede but…. That one should be AI to save brass stretching. Go in peace…

Neither you or the game animal would notice the difference. Leave it.

Either round he will need handloaded ammo, and like I said in a previous post at least with 25-06 Ai he will be able to use factory ammo in a pinch.