well, the government did it. i didn't think they would. i wonder if the rest of NATO will go to 6.8x51?



https://taskandpurpose.com/news/101st-airborne-next-generation-squad-weapon/

101st Airborne soldiers are first to receive new Next Gen Squad Weapon
Close combat forces will receive the new weapons including a National Guard armored brigade in May.

BY PATTY NIEBERG | PUBLISHED MAR 29, 2024


Soldiers with the 101st Airborne at Fort Campbell, Kentucky are the first to receive the Army’s new Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) system this week.

On Thursday, soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment were equipped with the NGSW ahead of April training where they will practice with new equipment, according to Army Futures Command. The training will involve a train-the-trainer course to prepare NCOs to conduct follow-on training across the company.

The Army also plans to field NGSW systems to a National Guard armored brigade in May.

The two NGSW rifles, which increase lethality at longer ranges, will be used by close combat forces which have historically sustained “80% of the casualties in combat,” according to Brig. Gen. Larry Burris, commander of the Army Infantry School and Army Maneuver Center of Excellence in a brief to reporters in 2022. Other forces will continue to use the M4 and the M249 weapons systems.

“For example, the company supply sergeant will continue to carry [an] M-4 or another weapon, not the Next-Gen Weapon,” Burris said.

The XM7 will be the new personal weapon for soldiers across the Army and replace the ubiquitous M4 rifle, which has designs originating from M16s used by Vietnam War soldiers. The XM250 will replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, a 1980s-era gun.

The XM7 weighs around 8.4 pounds, which is slightly heavier than the M4, weighing about 7.3 pounds. The XM250 is about 12 pounds, significantly lighter than the SAW, which weighs approximately 18 pounds.

When it comes to firing, the XM7 and XM250 rifles are designed to use a larger and heavier bullet size “with improved armor-penetrating capabilities,” according to Fort Campbell’s public affairs.

“There’s fewer rounds required for the soldier to carry,” Lt. Col. Micah Rue, product manager for soldier weapons at the Army’s Program Executive Soldier office, told Task & Purpose. “They don’t need as many as they needed in the past to neutralize the target. But if you look at the round itself, it’s actually a more substantial round.”

The new weapons will use 6.8mm ammunition while previous weapons used 5.56mm ammunition.

Officials began the NGSW development process after a 2017 study “recognized the need for weapons that will perform better at range,” according to AFC.

The Army has used over 25,000 hours to develop and test the NGSW system with soldiers, including those from the Kentucky base who were the first operational users of the XM7 rifle and the XM250 in September.

The Army also did natural environment testing in extreme cold and hot, tropical environments after studies in a closed, simulated environment where researchers take the weapon, put it in a freezer, let it soak overnight, and then shoot it for testing, Rue said.

With the help of several Army offices and private companies like Sig Sauer and Vortex, the Army was able to “deliver on schedule as promised,” despite “challenges, setbacks, and speed bumps,” Lt. Col. Mark Vidotto, lead of the NGSW for the Soldier Lethality Cross-Functional Team at Fort Moore, Georgia, said in a press release.

The rifles are a generational shift for the Army which will begin to retire its older inventory of personal and squad weapons with designs dating back to the Vietnam-era.

“This is the first time in our lifetime, the first time in 65 years the Army will field a new weapon system of this nature, a rifle and automatic rifle, a fire control system and a new caliber family of ammunition,” Burris told reporters in 2022 after the Army awarded a 10-year contract to Sig Sauer for weapon production.

“This is revolutionary,” Burris said, adding that the Army used rapid acquisition authorities for a process that “may have taken eight to 10 years to complete,” but instead took “roughly 27 months.”

Commander of the Army’s office for armaments and ammunition at Picatinny Arsenal, Brig. Gen. William Boruff, told reporters that fielding the weapons to certain units would be based on ammunition availability. The production of new ammo, he said, requires the Army to start a new industrial base – an issue the entire Department of Defense has struggled with while supplying Ukraine with enough munitions and maintaining its own stockpiles simultaneously. A combination of increased demand for munitions and older, dried-up production lines has led the DOD to establish new facilities and billion-dollar, multi-year contracts with defense contractors.

The Army set up a plan to produce the new ammunition at a contractor-operated Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Missouri. After seven to eight years, the Army plans to take the production lead with Sig Sauer as a second source.

“The NGSW fielding is a culmination of a comprehensive and rigorous process of design, testing and feedback, all of which were led by Soldiers,” said Col. Jason Bohannon, project manager at PEO Soldier. “As a result, the Army is delivering on its promise to deliver to Soldiers the highest quality, most capable small-caliber weapons and ammunition.”

6.5 (well, 6.8) Creed....??

Cool. Now Sig and Vortex can use hi-def action photos of the new weapons system in battlefield scenarios to sell us more polymer pocket pistols and 3-9x deer scopes!

Never have liked the idea of the 277 Fury, makes no sense at all to me, three piece case seems overly complicated for a high-volume ammunition user like the US armed forces. It has basically the same case dimensions as the 308 Win. I think the 6.5 CM would have been a much better choice for practical purposes. The 277 Fury is ballistically similar to the 270 Win (130 gr @ 3,000 FPS).

The .277 Fury SAAMI (voluntary) MAP chamber pressure of 80,000 psi (551.6 MPa) enables a 135 grains (8.7 g) projectile muzzle velocity of 3,000 feet per second (914 m/s) from a 16-inch

277
136 gr
3000 fps
.493 G1
@ 1000 yards
v 1414
E 600
T -295"
MOA 28

6.5 Cm
135
2850
.584
@ 1000 yards
V 1508
E 682
T .298
MOA 28

Granted the G1 is not similar and the 277 is spec'd with a 16" barrel the CM seems close enough with a lot less bother.

I bet the wizard had a hand in this .

“There’s fewer rounds required for the soldier to carry,” Lt. Col. Micah Rue, product manager for soldier weapons:

Seems to be going in the opposite direction from the 308 to 5.56 (more ammo, same weight), if I were a soldier in the field, I think I'd like the idea of "more ammo", not less.

But, will it blow the lungs right out? Also, Ft. Moore, Georgia, isn't familiar to me; where is it? GD

This is a classic textbook example of the military industrial complex doing what it does best...invent it...and then invent a need for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong here...but the main argument for dumping the 7.62 NATO to the 5.56 was ammo loadout weight,right? So now we adopt a round that weighs 3 times that of 5.56?...the XM-7 rifle is 2 pounds heavier empty too. So weight WAS a big deal...until it wasn't, I guess.
I'm not sayin' it won't be good...I'm sayin' it's strange how the procurement people threw out lightweight as a desirable attribute. I was always of the opinion that the M-4 was great in close quarters and jungle...but it sadly lacked out in Injun country where ranges and visibility increased.

That struck me as well. Is fire superiority and suppressing suddenly not part of an infantry fight?

It was Ft. Benning until the woke administration renamed all of the bases named after Confederate Generals.

Ron

Wasn't that the reason in the 50's that they went from the 30-06 to the 7.62x51/308?

The entire concept a this new cartridge MAKES ZERO SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe it will be a HUGE disaster of epic proportion.

Does it come in rainbow colors for the queer armed forces?

Some people don’t fully comprehend keeping the same ballistics, but shortening the case by a half inch.

Serious mistake this is.

Perhaps better to have R&D'd a new 5.56 round in the 70 grain range and improved propellants coupled with an increase in individual weapon barrel length to 18" or so to take advantage of same. Alternatively, just go back to 7.62 with modern improvements.

This new wonder round to me smacks of expensive teething problems, and what happens when near-peer body armor can defeat it?

That sounds like it's going to be a goat rope to me. And the loss of a true squad machine like the SAW seems like a recipe for disaster. But I'm just a arm chair general.

You must remember in today's Queer Army most of the upper echelon have never been in combat, and those that say they have were in rear with the gear, they all depend on the special ops guys to do their fighting for them, and the special ops guy's have already turned down these weapons, just like in S.E. Asia when the S.F. turned down the Stoner, the people that are in the SCHITT should have their choice of weapons. Rio7

With the way the army operates, you will have US forces on the same battlefield with two different standard issue rifles firing two completely different rounds. That alone will complicate logistics.

The purpose of the round is to increase range of lethality, but that only matters when you hit your target. As stated, fire suppression and maneuver is key. Less rounds on the modern battlefield seems counterintuitive to what is needed.

well what a moronic move. The first to get the new stuff are the very same folks that parachute into battle with VERY dicey resupply. It's like the Pentagon just set the airborne fellows to be slaughtered when they run out of ammo.

Anyone else in NATO with knowledge will not follow our lead.


They wanted something smaller than a full power round, around .270.
We insisted on 7.62, they acquiesced.
10 years later we adopted the 5.56.
Left them hanging with a tremendous investment in something they never wanted.


Now, almost 60 years later, we adopt a 270, high tech, high pressure, high expense,
unproven round.


I'd give the Uncle a 🖕!

Seems like they figure this round will let soldiers make one shot kills further out. Okay.

The dream of well aimed individual fire by rank and file soldiers has always been that, a dream. From volleys of arrows to massed infantry with muskets to machine guns to machine guns firing faster to assault rifles, putting as many projectiles into a given area gets hits. Trained troops can hit targets, but most of them rightfully don't want to expose themselves long enough to acquire a good sight picture, breathe, aim and squeeze.

The NRA was formed after the Civil War in large part to improve marksmanship of the recruits, the generals being dissatisfied with the accuracy of their soldiers.

The Germans figured out that targets rarely presented themselves for more than a few seconds so the MG 34 and 42 were designed to put as many rounds as possible into an area in a short time. They also figured out that most combat engagements take place within 400 yards so they created the Sturmgewehr.

In Korea, troops armed with .30-06 rifles lethal to 1000 yards often would not engage targets much beyond 200 yards. Part of that was the mountainous terrain which prevented them from seeing the enemy further than that but also because they knew their chances of actually hitting what they were aiming at decreased quickly beyond 200 yards, so they just saved their ammo. When a firefight happened, fire often started with the BAR then spread outwards to the individual riflemen from there. Lots of lead in the air does the trick.

Generals always fight the last war. In an area where good visibility extends out hundreds or thousands of yards, a weapon firing a projectile lethal at longer ranges makes sense. But even with a more lethal projectile, putting lots of lead where the enemy is will get hits.



This is just my educated and well regarded opinion, but an updated Wehrmacht squad organization still seems to make the most sense - it's built around an automatic weapon capable of sustained fire, a designated marksman who can make well aimed hits on distant targets, a grenadier and then a bunch of guys to carry ammo for the machine gun and also contribute to the general storm of lead. The bottom line is still having lots and lots of ammo when and where you need it.

Now I guess civilian ammo manufacturers will go all out producing this round for the DOD and leave the civilian market without ammo again. I'm glad I have more than my family and close friends will need for the rest of my days.

The Sig steel base cartridge is ingenious since it allows for 80,000 PSi, but why not employ that concept in a Grendel-based cartridge (.22 ARC for example with an 80 grain pill or 6mm ARC with a 105 grain pill? You could motivate it at +3000 fps from a 16.5" barrel and still use the M4. With the 6mm ARC, 800-yard performance would be within an eyelash of the .227 Sig Fury but with much lighter ammo and rifle.

Personally, I'd rather have 100 rounds of a cartridge that will lay an enemy combatant on his ass than 400 rounds of ammo that I've got to shoot him 4 times to put down, all the while hoping he doesn't clack off a hidden IED while he's flopping around.
5.56 had no business as a war cartridge.

Didn't the 70 grain bullets fix the M4? Obviously the 6.5 Grendal was too simple for big military contracts. Heavy projectiles like AK. Best range of match proven bullets already in production and well developed was just too damn obvious.

Tell me you know nothing about infantry tactics without telling me you nothing of infantry tactics.

How many rounds of barrel life you think an 80k PSI 6mm will go?

Improved ballistics and long term same ammo for MG as for the average Joe. Simplified logistics. That same setup with a 20 inch barrel would make an excellent DMR rifle. Ballistics are far superior to 223. Will there be growing pains? Yes. Will every old fudd and fogey complain? Yes. Let's recall the complaints against the 223 in Nam, ie inferior penetration. I've seen plenty of hogs require multiple 223 hits at 200 yards where a 6.5CM or better will put them down with authority. I'm very much looking forward o getting my hands on a civilian version of this new 277 in an AR platform with full 80k psi ammo. Should be a winner.

You believed the average grunt could make consistent hits with iron sights on man-sized targets at 1,000 yards?

Did you read the rest of the sentence and if so, why would you put words in my mouth when my original words were quite different than yours?

"In Korea, troops armed with .30-06 rifles lethal to 1000 yards often would not engage targets much beyond 200 yards."

"...they knew their chances of actually hitting what they were aiming at decreased quickly beyond 200 yards, so they just saved their ammo."

The subject here is lethality of the projectile. The .30-06 projectile is lethal at 1000 rounds; the troops were armed with a weapon that could conceivably kill at 1000 yards. The point being that even though they had a weapon with long range lethality, they did not try to hit targets that far because they knew their chances of hitting were slim and slimmer.

Nowhere did I say "I believe they could make consistent hits with iron sights on man-sized targets at 1,000 yards". My assertion is exactly the opposite of your assumption as to what I believe, which is that the average soldier cannot make accurate,well aimed hits at longer ranges during the heat and stress of battle. That's backed up by what the soldiers themselves actually reported.

And if someone wants a citation, I got that from the book "Battlefield Analysis of Infantry Weapons" by S. L. A. Marshal, which as it's titled, is an analysis of the effectiveness and actual use by the soldiers of each of the many Infantry weapons employed during the Korean War.


Geez, read and respond to what I actually wrote, would ya?

As unpopular as it might be among those who bluff and boast,
with 0 actual knowledge.

A whole damn bunch of shooting with no target actually in sight is darn worthwhile.

All this talk as if it's common to take prone and casually pick off enemy combatants,
like shooting Prarie dogs!

Sometimes.

Sometimes they be shootin back.
For some reason, rounds/ hit drops then?🤣🤣🤣🤣


Then there is this thing called fire and maneuver.





But that's just stuff soldiers do.


Feal men line 'em up and get 3 per round.
While smoking a cigarette.
Just like Wayne John.

I asked you a question. Why do upset?

Since we have been at war almost continuously for the last 20 years or better in the middle east, I would think some lessons have been learned by those who care to pay attention. Close encounters were relatively rare in those theaters as it was common for the muzzies to open fire from distant wood lines, ditches, or windows in mud huts that the 5.56 couldn't easily penetrate. In fact I read a couple reports that there were investigations by IG after complaints that our soldiers were executing Taliban soldiers because so many of them were shot in the head. What it turned out to be was that was the only part of their bodies exposed shooting from windows so that was where killing shots almost always landed.

However, in open country the 5.56 tends to run out of energy pretty quickly and penetrating even the most miniscule armor used by some muzzies was an issue at times at extended ranges. Hopefully, this new round will answer some of those problems, along with the fire control system including a scope for more accurate shooting if I understand the as issued version of the new weapon. As any new weapon, only real way to test is in real combat with real soldiers and I assume that will happen soon enough- whether it is already planned or not... let's hope they are right and this new weapons systems saves lives but I'm not yet convinced.

That’s actually funny as hell.



P

I am upset because I find your question extremely insulting, since it implies an invalid belief on my part that was refuted in the entirety of what I had written, which you conveniently left out.

E.g., "If pigs had wings, hollow bones and weighed as much as birds, they could fly. But they do not, therefore they can't."


You believe pigs could fly?



However, in the interests of clarity, no, I do not believe that the average grunt could make consistent hits on man-sized targets at 1,000 yards.

Currently the M7/SPEAR has accuracy issues and the M4 will out reach it, each using same optic.

General Milley's pet project.

It's likely the M7/SPEAR will die faster than the SCAR 16.

The DI Stoner system AR will stay on the top of the hill.

I was going for a Haiku but needed the 4th line.

"The primer is sealed with a new material which, surprisingly, resembles a polymerized rendition of "Cheeto's dust" said a factory rep."

Yeah, West Point didn't teach me sh-it about infantry tactics.
Where did you learn your infantry tactics?

Tell us about "fire and maneuver" and why less bullets is better than more bullets.

Less bullets is not better than more bullets, generally. However, a man can only tote so much crap on the battlefield and I'd rather tote less of something that will do its job that whole lots of stuff that won't.
Anyway, just WTF does your egotistical ass know about infantry tactics? Air Force, right?

The 187th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division taught me my infantry tactics. Not some crap I read about or watched videos of on-line. 😉

Yes I was in the Air Force and I would bet I did just as many real combat assaults as you did at West Point. Unlike many here my learning didn't stop after a 4 year hitch.

The fact you don't understand that for any given weight an infrantry grunt gets many more bullets of 5.56mm than of the new 6.8mm pretty much defines your whine.

The ol saw that the 5.56mm won't work is just silly based on over 2 decades of GWOT with the 5.56mm working really well in combat. You just look dumb stating the 5.56mm has "no business as a war cartridge". The 5.56mm has the longest and best run as a "war cartridge" the world has ever seen. The newer M855A1 version has proven even more effective in real combat.

in case no one mentioned the 6.8x51 is designed to go thru level 4 body armor and plates at 500 meters, something the 5.56 is lacking. the Army 6.8 projectiles, are kept under wraps and not commercially available, is special materials rounds.

body armor is something to consider.

This!

Maybe I missed it, how many rounds can the standard issue magazine hold?

War in the Middle East is only question of time. These will come in handy because when it comes to supporting Americas most valued ally in major war no boots on the ground is not going to be an option.

RE: the change--There is a huge amount of money spent on R&D for new weapons--the military/industrial complex needs more money

BINGO! That is the ultimate, most essential advantage of this pathetic feather nesting project. An in your face mooning of every single tax strapped citizen. These degenerates should be forced to the front lines in Ukraine toting their garbage. R&D field testing.

And the civilians who will change to the new cartridge and rifles, along with reloading supplies, is a substantial market.

Nah. They got the six five creed, best bullet ever. On the shelf everywhere.

Seems like the 7.62x39 ought to be at least mentioned in that breath as well.

No illusions/delusions about experience here, I didn't/haven't and am now to old to serve in any military capacity. The only version of "combat" I have experience with is trying to keep other boats off my marker bouy when catching is good. The last "war" video game I played extensively was on an Atari driving pixilated tanks.

Does it make any sense to have these available for the best few shooters in a squad, maybe for those who set a perimeter, or, as an option if traveling through open country? Does it have to be "All or nothing?"

Don’t shoot til you see the whites of their eyes!!!

lol

Now if only the army could teach their soldiers to shoot.

I wonder what 80k psi is like when your buddy corks a few off next to your ear.

The standard 50-60k sucks pretty hard.

I can't help but think that the 6.5 CM would have done just about everything they are trying to accomplish with a whole lot less R&D. If not the CM, a modified 260 Rem which is based upon the 308 case. In same bullet weights, the 6.5 has a higher BC and better long range performance than the 277.

That is the best informed post on this thread. Warriors need to train hard and like to train hard.


mike r

If one of the 101st's choppers flies over my house, as they do on a regular basis, and one of the new rifles falls out, and stuff has been known to, maybe I'll find it and give you guys a review.

It's about time! I used the M16 in 'Nam and it sucked. Was always jamming just when you needed it most to perform. 'Course you became an expert at quickly recycling your weapon. The gooks had 30 round magazines and we had twenty round magazines. Put us at a disadvantage.

I'm glad that our military is finally providing a superior primary weapon for our service men and women.

It will be interesting to see how well that electronic scope performs. Maybe carry several extra batteries? It would be a bitch for the battery to run out just when you need it the most. Some users may elect to use a simple telescopic site.

Weren't they going to be supplied with suppressors?

Two things strike me about this: 1) the most important tool in the military, after the soldier, is being designed using analytics ala McNamara and the Whiz Kids in the 60's, not boots on the ground grunts. Interesting the MACV-SOG guys and LRRPS carried their weight in ammo. 2) the other thing that if this is the main battle weapon of our ground forces, then our arsenals are going to have to ramp up production bigly...and there's goes prices and components for civilians.

The mountain of dead the 5.56 has piled up obviously has no effect on your opinion. Second anytime I can have 280 to 320 rounds over 140 I will take the formwer.

How many for a .277 at 80K psi. And just how good are the suppressors? How many rounds will they last? How loud will the rifles be without a suppressor? Seems a miserable choice, going deaf, running out of ammo.

What is the militaries fascination with .277 when there is .264 and .284? Stick a large rifle primers in a 6x47 lapua and make a 130g boat tail with a g1 bc of better than .550. The lapua round is proven accurate and a few extra bc points wouldn't hurt. Too many of our old military guys listen to too many of their uncles 270 win deer hunting stories. The swedes had the bore right over 100 years ago. I like the 6mm gt too. A 110g 6mm bullet can have a bc over .6 and weighs less.

Bb

500 yards is pretty ambitious anyway for most.

20 just like the M14.

Seems reasonable to use the new rifle with designated riflemen.

can a 5.56 penetrate Level 4 body armor at 50 meters? 100 meters? 150 meters? 200 meters? i don't know, but i betcha the Army does know.

the 5.56 was a good round to kill unarmored opponents. today in this day and age, China supplies level 4 body armor to their troops. it's kinda hard to kill the Chinese troops having level 4 body armor using the 5.56.


338 Lapua with polymer cases is less weight than a 7.62. i don't know if the Lapua is coming out or shelved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVgyOHB5D5M&t=132s&ab_channel=Task%26Purpose

just for your own info

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...new-rifle-machine-gun-and-optic-in-2024/

Army to field new rifle, machine gun and optic in 2024
By Todd South
Dec 20, 2023


The Army’s newest rifle and automatic rifle are already in the hands of soldiers for testing and will officially field to its first unit in 2024.

The service delivered the Next Generation Squad Weapon rifle and automatic rifle, known as the XM7 and XM250, respectively, along with its advanced optic, the XM157 fire control, to a platoon in the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, Kentucky in late September.

That platoon, along with a squad from the 75th Ranger Regiment, conducted user tests over the subsequent months as the Army ramped up for full fielding to a not yet identified unit in the 101st by the second quarter of fiscal year 2024, officials told Army Times.

The XM7 will replace the M4 for close combat units such as infantry, scouts, combat engineers and special operations forces. The XM250 will replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon for the same units.

The weapons and optics will drop the “X” in their names once fielded.

Non-close combat forces will continue to carry the M4 and M249 for the foreseeable future.

The legacy M4 and M249 fire the 5.56mm round while the XM7 and XM250 fire the recently developed 6.8mm cartridge.

The Army began development of the “intermediate caliber” to better defeat enemy body armor and increase both accuracy and lethality at longer ranges. That effort began in earnest following the 2017 Small Arms Ammunition Configuration Study, which identified firepower and range gaps in small arms across the Army.

The Marine Corps has actively participated in multiple testing and evaluation sessions with the Army, provided feedback and is “monitoring” the Army’s development and fielding of the weapons systems.

The heavier round provides better penetration and outperforms the 7.62mm round used in the M240 machine gun system, typically found at the platoon level.

The increased energy of the round also allows shooters to penetrate barriers that deflected 5.56mm rounds, as demonstrated in a live fire during which an Army Times reporter participated in September at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland.

Multiple XM250 6.8mm rounds drilled holes through cinder blocks and struck a human silhouette target while only a single 5.56mm round managed to damage, but not fully pass through the cinder blocks.

“That’s turning cover into concealment,” Lt. Col. Micah Rue, product manager for soldier weapons at Program Executive Office-Soldier, said at the time.

The current 10-year contract for the Sig Sauer weapons, builder of both systems, has a ceiling value of $4.5 billion, and the Vortex Optics/Sheltered Wings XM157 fire control cost ceiling is set at $2.7 billion.

The fire control allows for computer-aided ballistics, matching the round and weapon with the optic for better accuracy. The shooter can aim at the target, push a button on the weapon or optic and it will automatically adjust for distance and bullet drop, allowing the user to adjust fire rapidly.

The fire control has preprogrammed ballistics information and can be fit to nearly any small arms weapon system in the Army’s inventory.

Sure. Until the suppressor lost. Or not installed properly or damaged jumping out of a vehicle or slammed against a doorframe just enough to cause a baffle strike.

20.

The 6.8X51mm is the same case size as the 7.62X51mm (.308). It's a .270/08 running at very high pressure.


Yeah the 7.62X39mm is a contender but has not been the frontline issue round for the Commies for decades. The Orcs went to a 22 cal version and the ChiComs use the 5.8X42mm. The trend to the smaller caliber rounds is pretty much universal for those with large armies.

The M7 is going to be a failure for general infantry issue and the current guns are not accurate enough for DMR duty.

Well then, perhaps you should tote you some .22 LR or .17 HMR so you could quadruple that to 1,200 rounds or so. 🤷‍♂️

This is what a West Point education gets you nowadays I guess…

They shoulda just kept the M1 Garand. John C. Garand even wanted to make it a .277 caliber but General MacArthur vetoed that because of the gazillions of rounds of 30-06 they had left over from WWI.

After the last four years, I don’t a give a schidt if they use any caliber from 17 on up.

It will slow the AAP s down when the already can't keep up with the rate that congress is giving our armaments away to foreigners.

My "nowadays" was mid 80's.

So, now we mock West Point graduates here?

Wow.

Well their pledge has changed with the times, you know. Army values? Mourn maybe more than mock.

Have I said this before ? Too complicated, too expensive (good for "losing" a few 100 large). And not made in the US of A, and that is a disgrace.

The contract was awarded to SIG Sauer Inc, a US Based company that is a partner with Germany based SIG Sauer AG. The guns are manufactured in New Hampshire (the one in USA!)

and Lake City produces the ammo for it.

Normally it's the Air Force developing the fat turkeys that can't fly. This stupid thing won't either. But it too is the perfect weapon for wars that won't be fought. Good for the Economy, stupid! Or Stupid economy.....

However uppers capable of using 7.62x51 will be available for countries unwilling to use the Fury. Or us when it becomes obvious short barrels, 80K psi and suppressors have a hard time enjoying each others company for long. Wonder if the rifles will function without the suppressor installed? Wonder how loud it will be without the suppressor? Bet we go back to the 7.62x51 quickly.