Via http://rfth.org

Saturday, Jul. 26, 2008
Is It Tradition Or Is It Biblical?

"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?'" - Matthew 15:1-3

Sometimes we have to get outside of our own traditions to notice some of the legalisms we have embraced. During our seminary days, my wife and I were serving as missionaries at a Scottish Baptist church. I soon noticed that there was no specific time at the end of the sermon for people to "walk the aisle" to make a decision to join the church or to accept Christ. I went to the pastor and expressed my concern. "This is not good," I told him. "Why are you not doing this?" He looked at me with that rather condescending smile that Englishmen specialize in and said, "Well, Bryant, would you show me in the Bible where it says you've got to 'walk the aisle' to become a Christian or join a church?" And then he added, "Bryant, would you do a little study and see how the Bible teaches us to make a public confession of our faith in Jesus Christ? The only thing you'll see is baptism."

So often we elevate tradition to the level of the Bible. Tradition can be meaningful, but when we elevate it to the level of the Bible, we make it idolatry and ignore the 2nd commandment. Let's be sure that in following Christ, the Bible is our ultimate authority on how to live for Him.

can a person live a good life, here and for ever, without the hierarchy of religion?

Without religion, yes!

Without the blood of the Lord Jesus applied to his life, absolutely not!!!

Without the blood of the Lord Jesus applied to his life, absolutely not!!!


Respectfully, so a person can just bumble along through this thing called life and have no knowledge of the 'underpinnings' of the lord and still wind up in the same place/acknowlegement?

If I recall correctly, people such as the Cherokee indians who may have never knew of Christ, would be in purgatory until He comes again and they will get the chance to know Him. But before He comes again, all will have heard of Him ... one of the signs that He is soon TO come. Some one please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is this to say all pre european Indians are in purgatory now or up until the white man showed up?

Many things that are good and not found in scripture are also not unscriptural. The altar call is one example, Sunday school is another,there are many others such as musical instuments in New Testament worship.

Such activities can occur according to Biblical principles even if specific examples of them may not be present in the scriptures.

Britt

Morality would not exist without religion, so that question is pretty much moot.

Morality doesn't hinge on religion. In fact some of the most immoral people I know are the most religious and church going people around.

If you say that morality can't exist without a spiritual path I might go along with that but not religion.

Some people do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do.

I don't steal my neighbor's tools, not because of a threat of hell or promise of heaven, but because it is to my greater benefit to get along with my neighbor. Then we will help each other in time of need instead of shooting at each other.

Bruce

I don't steal my neighbor's tools, not because of a threat of hell or promise of heaven, but because it is to my greater benefit to get along with my neighbor. Then we will help each other in time of need instead of shooting at each other.



Bingo!

[quote=Bootsfishing]If I recall correctly, people such as the Cherokee indians who may have never knew of Christ, would be in purgatory until He comes again and they will get the chance to know Him. But before He comes again, all will have heard of Him ... one of the signs that He is soon TO come. Some one please correct me if I'm wrong.

What is and where is "purgatory?"

Sounds like a nice place to wait.

------------
"Purgatory is not a mega ski resort, but it offers excellent skiing and facilities at reasonable rates. The view from the Legends summit is considered one of the best in Colorado, with several 14,000-foot mountains visible.

The ski area has 75 trails and nearly 750 acres (26% advanced, 51% intermediate, 23% beginner). The highest lift goes to 10,820 feet and the longest run is two miles. Snowboarding and Nordic skiing are available. Cross country at Mesa Verde is unique and popular. Child care and children's lessons are also available.

Luxury lodging includes the nearby Tamarron Resort with 100 rooms plus 270 two-and three-bedroom condos, restaurant, lounge, pool, hot tub, exercise room and on-site cross country skiing. The historic Strater Hotel in Durango has luxurious Victorian rooms, live theater at Christmas, hot tub, restaurant, and an authentic saloon from Colorado's gold-rush days.

Luxury condominiums nearest the ski area include Cascade Village with studios to three-bedroom units, fireplaces, steamroom, hot tubs, sauna, exercise center, restaurant, lounge. Purgatory Village Hotel has condo suites with a pool, hot tub and restaurant. Purgatory Townhouse has studio and two-bedroom units with fireplaces, hot tub.

Excellent restaurants include The Palace and Red Snapper in Durango, and Tamarron Resort between Durango and Purgatory. Cafe Cascade at Cascade Village near the ski area is considered by many to be one of Colorado's finest restaurants, with magnificent views of the rugged Needles Wilderness Area.

Night spots that usually have music or dancing include Tamarron near the ski area and Farquahrts and AJ's in Durango."

http://www.coloradoadventure.net/index2.cfm?var_file=region/skipurga.html

So purgatory probably is a pretty good place, huh?

those indians get all the breaks, I guess thats why they are PO'd at the white man for messing up such a nice place.

Bootsfishing,


What happen to
"It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement."?

Or where does purgatory fit in with,
"There is no other name (Jesus) given among men where by we must be saved."

Thanks for the laugh!

Does this passage indicate that we should not wash our hands before we eat?

No. It indicates that, while hand washing was a good tradition, it should not be considered to be as important as God's commandments. Jesus was reprimanding the church elders for emphasizing tradition while ignoring the commandments of God.


From Matthew 15:


16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?

17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?

18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

If there had NEVER been ANY religion, at all, ever; what would society have its morality based on?
To clear something up, there are definitely moral people without religion. However, their morals are the product of a society based on and descendant from religion, so the same concept applies.

For example; Feudal Japan. Free of religion, and morality.

Another note; morality does not have to match other concepts of morality. Isalmic radicals are moral, based on their own moral code. It's more of a self-relevant idea to the religion.

I am beginning to recant this because I have been thinking on this, reading scripture and seeking counsel of others and am looking for a verse, if my memory serves me, where it says something about God reveals Him self to all .... does that strike a bell with any one else? Study in progress ....

FWIW, here is something that strikes a better chord ....

For all of Mankind

While the Bible lists many types of sinners who will not be in the Kingdom, it does not mean to say that anyone who has sinned is excluded (Revelation 21:8, 27 & 22:15). We have all sinned (Romans 3:23). It is through the process of conversion that even the worst sinner can change and become acceptable in God's eyes. Some are called to repentance and conversion at this time, others will be called later on. Eventually all who have ever lived on this earth will have been given the opportunity to enter into the process of conversion.

Those who have not been called and have not repented, nor been baptized and received God's Holy Spirit in their lifetime, are not lost as some churches teach. It would be grossly unfair if the many millions who lived before Christ was born, or who never heard of Christ, were condemned to eternal death. God has a plan that provides a way for all who have ever lived to repent and go through the process of conversion so they too have the opportunity to enter into His Kingdom.

This is the Kingdom the prophets like Isaiah and Daniel anticipated It is the good news Christ and his disciple preached, and it is the message that is still being preached today by the people of God. It is a message about the Kingdom that God will establish on earth when Christ returns. It is indeed a very real Kingdom and Jesus instructed us to pray for it to come (Matthew 6:10). Those who are called and respond in this life have a commission to continue preaching about the Kingdom to those who will listen.

I've always had quite enough to be curious about and to worry about with considerations of my own eternity without worrying about or judging the mysterious specifics of others' spiritual standing or eternal status.

If a religion (like Christianity) actually changed people's behaviour - then a nation founded on Christian beliefs, and with the huge majority of it's people professing to be Christian should have a very low incarceration rate and it would be a very peaceful and love-filled society - would it not?

Do we find this to be true - on any nation on earth?

Nations?

No. But, if you look at pure Mennonite or Amish communities, you'd find likely the closest approximation of such cultures, and crime rates are nearly non-existent.

To a larger, and somewhat lesser degree, the Mormons are also a rather good example of that which you seek, BCB......

In a way - I agree with you.

But let me offer this analogy. In BC private schools frequently "out-rank" public schools in provincial-exam test scores. So - private schools are better - right?

No.

When you think that the public school system takes EVERYONE (under-performers, troublemakers, FAS kids, mentally challenged kids etc.)- and let's ALL students write the exam - it is very surprising how close we are in test results. Most private schools "bounce" students that are under-performing and don't accept student's with real problems in behavior or having learning disabilities.

Same with religions and sub-groups of religions.

The Amish (and the LDS church) "bounce" anyone they disapprove of - out of their communities. So - society at large gets all of the "under-performers" from these groups - while the church gets to claim superiority by having society look at only the "honour role" people - in other words - the people it decides to allow to retain membership.

Do you see my point?

PS - In regards to the Amish - Does a "love-filled" parent ever choose to "shun" and give up on a wayward child - just because such a a child might wish to live life a just bit differently than his parents do?

IIRC, such actions are in line with their beliefs and teachings, so (again, if I am correct in my recollection) such actions would actually go to support the earlier position that they are a "nation" founded upon and in harmony with their religious ideals.

To my way of thinking - a nation is a place stuck with everyone born in it.

Once they can "pick and choose" - they aren't a nation.