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An Army physician is refusing to deploy to Afghanistan because he says that Obama is not qualified to be president due to not being a natural-born citizen, and the Army has taken the first steps toward court martial. See the MSNBC article at the link below:

Army officer challenging Obama's citizenship

The issue has apparently come up before in the case of a Reservist who volunteered to go and then refused on the grounds that Obama could not issue a lawful order as a result of not being a natural-born citizen:

quote from linked article:
Last summer, an Army Reserve major volunteered to serve in Afghanistan, then filed suit to keep from being deployed, arguing that Obama was not a natural-born citizen. But a federal judge rejected the case, saying it was moot because the Army had already said that under rules for reserve volunteers, he didn't have to go.
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Somehow I have a feeling the Pentagon tries to sweep this current case of the physician refusing to deploy under the rug to keep from having to prove Hussein's citizenship in a court setting. However, who knows, this could be the situation that brings down the whole Soros-Obama house of cards and kills the Obamacare Law. Kinda ironic that it is a physician that is trying to bring down Hussein.
There's a Lt. Col., trying the same tactic.. I wonder how that will turn out?

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Somehow I have a feeling the Pentagon tries to sweep this current case of the physician refusing to deploy under the rug to keep from having to prove Hussein's citizenship in a court setting.
Ya think? Not just the Pentagon - every court has refused to get into that powder keg.. They have families to consider..

I'm sure Junior1942 is about ready to join in.. laugh
There are fools and then there are damn fools; this guy is the latter. I wouldn't throw away my career over Obama. The friggin issue is DEAD. Get over it, he's President and it isn't going to change until we either vote his arse out, or his second term expires...Let's hope it's the former.

The "birthers" are pathetic.
Adolf Obama's citizenship has to be challenged or we will have foreign presidents from here on out.
Agree. I think the guys didn't want to deploy. The Army doesn't have to prove Obama's citizenship, only that these [bleep] refused to deploy.
Just some slick-sleeve Sally trying to dodge a deployment.
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Adolf Obama's citizenship has to be challenged or we will have foreign presidents from here on out.
It was challenged; the challenge failed...it's OVER.
Originally Posted by Gene L
Agree. I think the guys didn't want to deploy. The Army doesn't have to prove Obama's citizenship, only that these [bleep] refused to deploy.
I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what these guys are thinking, whether they're using the issue or honestly don't feel he has authority. I think you're right though, that the Army won't even have to prove anything about Obama, just that they refused to go.
I hope these guys are into January in Leavenworth, Kansas.
Last I heard, Hawaii was part of the USA. Dang, I just realized that I helped a birther waste bandwidth.
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
There are fools and then there are damn fools; this guy is the latter. I wouldn't throw away my career over Obama. The friggin issue is DEAD. Get over it, he's President and it isn't going to change until we either vote his arse out, or his second term expires...Let's hope it's the former.

The "birthers" are pathetic.
Pathetic? For demanding that he provide irrefutable proof he is eligible for the job? As has been already said, it opens the door for a non-native President. Can you say "world government"? I think it is pathetic that people are willing to accept very thin documentation of his eligibility, or that we, as American citizens, have no "standing" to demand he produce adequate documentation. Futher, he referred to himself as a Kenyan, when running for Senate. The Constitution is important, and these people are grinding it under their heels.
Gene,

The military has to prove the order is a lawful order. The vast majority of the time, the legality of orders isn't challenged, but when the legality of an order is challenged, it is up to the court with jurisdiction to determine the level of burden for the military to prove the order is lawful. The court martial could punt and say they watched the inauguration either in person or on TV and that the military recognized Obama as CinC, so therefore Obama is rightfully president, or they could say the issue hadn't been fully resolved in court and let the defendant's lawyers go after Obama. I really doubt the latter is going to happen, but the defendant does appear to be itching to go to court martial with his case, and there are no guarantees at trial.

I think the defendant's lawyer would have a little difficulty getting the documents he needs in discovery, but that's not my problem, and I'm wishing the lawyer success.
Kevin,

Obama's citizenship was challenged in civilian court, not military court, and IIRC the Supreme Court didn't take the case on appeal. Also, IIRC the federal court that ruled essentially said the case was moot because the election had occurred and Obama had been sworn in. My personal opinion is that that isn't enough for a court martial to deny the man his defense, but I'm not a JAG lawyer either.
This one won't work. What we need is a bunch of states refusing to acknowledge laws passed by congress because they aren't signed by a legal president.
Well whether you like the results or not. Whether you agree with the conclusions made by the courts or not, doesn't change the fact that the birth debate has gone as far as it's going to go. The issue is DEAD.

Really now...Is there anyone on this forum that truely thinks that the issue will suddenly get pushed through and Obama will be un-seated? Really?
Yeah, it's pathetic. Losers whining about it are even more pathetic.

Also, I don't think there IS a discovery rule in the UCMJ.
I think the lawsuit is stupid, but on the other hand, I WOULD like to see some transcripts, school records, and a bona-fide birth cert. Just to feel better about my country, ya know.
Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner
I think the lawsuit is stupid, but on the other hand, I WOULD like to see some transcripts, school records, and a bona-fide birth cert. Just to feel better about my country, ya know.


That is how I see it.
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Really now...Is there anyone on this forum that truely thinks that the issue will suddenly get pushed through and Obama will be un-seated? Really?
I don't.. It will be buried until the Messiah leaves office..

Some day, some way, the real truth - one way or the other - will come out.. I hope I live long enough to find out what IS the truth..
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Well whether you like the results or not. Whether you agree with the conclusions made by the courts or not, doesn't change the fact that the birth debate has gone as far as it's going to go. The issue is DEAD.



No, it is not dead. It won't be dead until his birth, adoption and education records are all released.

Hawaiian vs. Kenyan birth aside, I can easily say that 0bama was adopted by Soetero and that he is legally a citizen of Indonesia. You cannot prove that statement as incorrect until you see whatever adoption records and education records there are.

Natural born does not mean dual citizen!
Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Well whether you like the results or not. Whether you agree with the conclusions made by the courts or not, doesn't change the fact that the birth debate has gone as far as it's going to go. The issue is DEAD.



No, it is not dead. It won't be dead until his birth, adoption and education records are all released.

Hawaiian vs. Kenyan birth aside, I can easily say that 0bama was adopted by Soetero and that he is legally a citizen of Indonesia. You cannot prove that statement as incorrect until you see whatever adoption records and education records there are.

Natural born does not mean dual citizen!
Again, no court is willing to hear the case. The Supreme Court opted not to hear the case and that's as high as it goes. So where do you think this is going to go. Hey, you want to beat a dead horse, you go right ahead. But you'll get much better results by advocating for a good congressional candidate than you'll ever get on this birth issue.

YOU may not believe that the birth certificate is legit, but the highest court in the land is satisfied; that's as far as the issue is going to go.
The SC has made no such determination or ruling in re: the birth certificate.
The man's own words:


Given this guy's record and previous deployment to three different theaters, I doubt that this is being done to avoid another deployment. He is a smart man and could probably easily come up with a way of avoiding deployment that doesn't involve a court marshall...

And here's Dr. Manning's read on this:

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=y6vvTrvgZ1c&feature=related[/video]

Say what you will, but you have to respect this man's sincerity. I've been watching his videos for several years now and he's been a true conservative throughout.
Sincerity is no measure of what's true and what's not. There is an old saying, "Never let them see you sweat." All this birther nonsense is giving a victory to the Dems, it's such a transparent issue. It's the ultimate example of letting them see you sweat, and it's "Playground Politics." His birthplace is only an issue to those who oppose his presidency and who, apparently, lack the grounds for which to oppose it and therefore try to play lawyerball with an weird claim.

If you want him out of office, VOTE.
Anyone that spends over $1M to hide records that could simply be opened to clear this entire mess up sure looks like they are hiding something important. Why not just open his long form birth cert (including attending physicians names for verification), his college transcripts (including any student loan applications) and his records as an attorney (including records held by the bar assn). He promised transparency did he not?
For the same reason JFingKerry never released his Vietnam records......
the guy isn't trying to get out of deployment, he's using his position to try to bring to light this cover up of the Obamanation.
The whole birther thing now smacks of whining. As noted, it's a dead issue. It's a way for people to complain and feel like they are helping without actually getting involved in the political process. It's easier to whine than to knock on doors, volunteer to work for the party or run for office.
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His birthplace is only an issue to those who oppose his presidency and who, apparently, lack the grounds for which to oppose it and therefore try to play lawyerball with an weird claim.


Birthplace isn't a weird claim. If he is not a natural born citizen, as well as a current citizen, that is an overly sufficient ground upon which to oppose his fitness to serve. Federal requirements to hold the office of President of the United States are very specific. Apparently it does not matter to you. However, your opinion or mine for that matter is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not the qualification has been met. It would be a very simple matter to open up sufficient records to clarify this issue one way or the other but there is strong opposition from the administration to doing so. That, along with his multi-national upbringing and possibly being legally a foreign national, is certainly sufficient cause for suspicion.

To call those with concern names or infer they are misguided reminds me of the "Nuts & Sluts" defense the Clintons always used when confronted with incriminating charges. The issue of being a native born citizen of the United States in order to hold it's highest office is about as serious an issue as we the people can address. To say we should sweep it under the rug because of lack of support or to accept non-review by the Supreme Court as final determination of citizenship authenticity is an absurd suggestion. It is no more acceptable than are draconian anti-second amendment laws and measures, unconstitutional federal mandates, confiscatory tax regulations and on and on.

Further, for some to say "It's settled. Move on." is further nonsense. We could say the same for the current misguided takeover of our private healthcare system. I for one do not intend to consider that issue settled either even though Congress and our acting President have so mandated. Shall we always simply "Move on" when the federal government dictates? If those present on this forum are that far along then we as a country are truly in serious trouble. Quite a while back when more liberal in my thinking I had a T-shirt that simple said "Question Authority". Though my belief system has gone thru considerable change over the years I maintain even more the firm belief that we should "Question Authority". Authourity excercised unlawfully and without consent brings domination. I will not be dominated. I will accept legal, moral and legitimate authority; but here in a free country when I question that authority I expect and demand proof it is legal, moral and legitimate.

So, with all that being said will the people be allowed access to all evidence pro and con on this issue? Maybe not. But if we cease to question and demand answers the outcome is obvious. And to me, it matters.
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
There are fools and then there are damn fools; this guy is the latter. I wouldn't throw away my career over Obama. The friggin issue is DEAD. Get over it, he's President and it isn't going to change until we either vote his arse out, or his second term expires...Let's hope it's the former.

The "birthers" are pathetic.
Not a birther (at least I don't think I am), but I have looked at their arguments, and they seem strong.
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
There are fools and then there are damn fools; this guy is the latter. I wouldn't throw away my career over Obama. The friggin issue is DEAD. Get over it, he's President and it isn't going to change until we either vote his arse out, or his second term expires...Let's hope it's the former.

The "birthers" are pathetic.


Yep, and the marxists continue to play the kook-fringe for suckers and will never release his birth certificate. A simple perusal of the microfiche archives of the Honolulu Rag, clearly shows a birth announcement for one BHO on the date specified. Kinda hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence. But even if it were true, the matter is clearly moot. jorge
Originally Posted by Junior1942
Last I heard, Hawaii was part of the USA. Dang, I just realized that I helped a birther waste bandwidth.
He was born in Kenya to a father who was not an American citizen. In that case, to be a "natural born citizen," he must have had a mother who was an American citizen who lived in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16. Obama's mother was only 18 when he was born, which was only 2 years after the age of 16. Not a natural born citizen. Not eligible to be president.
My 2 cents.
Can you imagine what would happen if the election was overturned?

At best many segments of the country would see this as overturning an election based on a technicality�

At worst the takeover of government by the courts.

Either would spark riots and worse for years.

Frankly I wish it were that easy but it is not and sadly it is a dead issue� it is too hot to touch.

To keep this from happening again we need to stop constitutionally unqualified persons from running�
not try to get them out after they are elected.
A simple perusal of the microfiche archives of the Honolulu Rag, clearly shows a birth announcement for one BHO on the date specified. Kinda hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence.
----------

I hope you're somewhat kidding when you suggest that it would be hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence. I disagree completely with you and Kevin and will say,with grimaced face and humility, that I completely agree with Hawkeye in his first response to Kevin above.

Although I certainly do not consider myself a birther but more of a seeker of the truth and facts, this argument is not going away and it's having an opposite affect other than showing those who wish for such proof as fringe kooks. Lawyers seeking the truth and soldiers who actually hit the fronts questioning their Commander in Chief's authority to order such gets relegated to fringe kooks? Not in my black and white book of life, it doesn't!

Lastly, there's much to be garnered from the document request and it's clear something is being hidden from observation. That's on Obama, not those desiring proof and evidence from one holding the highest office in the land. And, I don't mean your hottie wife,Jorge!

Produce the evidence and then finish us off with a "I told you so,dumbass" but, until then, it's not a resolved issue.
It is making news. And, a Court Martial is a place where a person can be cleared of alledged wrong doing every bit as much as punished for an error.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...hip-refuses-afghanistan/?test=latestnews

As for the waste of time believers, the true heros often go against popular sentiment. In this field it is all opinion, and using adverbs to belittle people doesn't make you right.

I agree with what the LTC is doing, but I do feel that the Citizenship issue is a dead horse. Read this comment off that link.

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If someone were to have pulled a stunt like this under Bush, they'd label him as a traitor and be calling for a firing squad. period, and all of you know it. As a military officer one's duty is to obey orders, regardless of what you think of the person handing them down. I came from a military family so I know this to be the case. This hoopla over a birth certificate is merely a distraction from the real issues as to why people do not want Obama as resident. Seriously folks. Look up the laws you obviously do not know about. This is from the U.S. Constitution online...Title 8, Section 1401 clearly defines who are citizens of the United States at birth. Here they are.... �€� Anyone born inside the United States * �€� Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe �€� Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S. �€� Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national �€� Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year �€� Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21 �€� Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time) �€� A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S. People who are making this up are just doing it to suit their needs......READ folks and educate yourselves!


The bolded are where I have my issues, IIRC, isn't that what the officer's of the Third Reich used as their excuse for following Hitler Blindly, Military Officer's are able to protest what they consider unlawful orders, seems a lot of folks, other than Jorge, PUGS, my wife and a few other's realize this. Les
Originally Posted by isaac
A simple perusal of the microfiche archives of the Honolulu Rag, clearly shows a birth announcement for one BHO on the date specified. Kinda hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence.
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I hope you're somewhat kidding when you suggest that it would be hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence. I disagree completely with you and Kevin and will say,with grimaced face and humility, that I completely agree with Hawkeye in his first response to Kevin above.

Although I certainly do not consider myself a birther but more of a seeker of the truth and facts, this argument is not going away and it's having an opposite affect other than showing those who wish for such proof as fringe kooks. Lawyers seeking the truth and soldiers who actually hit the fronts questioning their Commander in Chief's authority to order such gets relegated to fringe kooks? Not in my black and white book of life, it doesn't!

Lastly, there's much to be garnered from the document request and it's clear something is being hidden from observation. That's on Obama, not those desiring proof and evidence from one holding the highest office in the land. And, I don't mean your hottie wife,Jorge!

Produce the evidence and then finish us off with a "I told you so,dumbass" but, until then, it's not a resolved issue.
+1
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
There are fools and then there are damn fools; this guy is the latter. I wouldn't throw away my career over Obama. The friggin issue is DEAD. Get over it, he's President and it isn't going to change until we either vote his arse out, or his second term expires...Let's hope it's the former.

The "birthers" are pathetic.
Not a birther (at least I don't think I am), but I have looked at their arguments, and they seem strong.


Yes, but you thought Iraqis carrying RPGs were "bodyguards."
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To keep this from happening again we need to stop constitutionally unqualified persons from running�
not try to get them out after they are elected.


We need to allow unqualified politicians fraudulently elected to office to continue to hold that office?? And we need to keep illegals from coming into the country but not evict those already here?? And we need to prevent crime but not prosecute criminals?? Are you serious? Call me simple but it's obvious prevention/punishment is not an either/or option. Both prevention and punishment are required to insure at least partially the integrity of public office. What laws do I get to break??

But yeah, sounds hard. Guess we ought to just go sit on the porch.
Originally Posted by shootem
Quote
To keep this from happening again we need to stop constitutionally unqualified persons from running�
not try to get them out after they are elected.


We need to allow unqualified politicians fraudulently elected to office to continue to hold that office?? And we need to keep illegals from coming into the country but not evict those already here?? And we need to prevent crime but not prosecute criminals?? Are you serious? Call me simple but it's obvious prevention/punishment is not an either/or option. Both prevention and punishment are required to insure at least partially the integrity of public office. What laws do I get to break??

But yeah, sounds hard. Guess we ought to just go sit on the porch.
Yeah, that's the part that gets me too. I guess if you can make it out of the 7-11 after robbing it, you get to keep the money. Weird sheit.
Again. This time real slow:

NO COURT HAS EVER REVIEWED OR SUBPOENAED OBAMA'S RELEVANT DOCUMENTS.

UNTIL THEY DO THE ISSUE OF OBAMA'S CONSTITUTIONAL ELIGIBILITY FOR THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT IS NOT SETTLED!


Thank you.
Just like they've never did DNA tests to make sure he's human.

They have refused to hear the issue, which makes it pretty well settled.
Originally Posted by isaac
A simple perusal of the microfiche archives of the Honolulu Rag, clearly shows a birth announcement for one BHO on the date specified. Kinda hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence.
----------

I hope you're somewhat kidding when you suggest that it would be hard to [bleep] with that kind of evidence. I disagree completely with you and Kevin and will say,with grimaced face and humility, that I completely agree with Hawkeye in his first response to Kevin above.

Although I certainly do not consider myself a birther but more of a seeker of the truth and facts, this argument is not going away and it's having an opposite affect other than showing those who wish for such proof as fringe kooks. Lawyers seeking the truth and soldiers who actually hit the fronts questioning their Commander in Chief's authority to order such gets relegated to fringe kooks? Not in my black and white book of life, it doesn't!

Lastly, there's much to be garnered from the document request and it's clear something is being hidden from observation. That's on Obama, not those desiring proof and evidence from one holding the highest office in the land. And, I don't mean your hottie wife,Jorge!

Produce the evidence and then finish us off with a "I told you so,dumbass" but, until then, it's not a resolved issue.


Holy crap, I agree with Bob!!!!!! grin
Originally Posted by temmi
My 2 cents.
Can you imagine what would happen if the election was overturned?

At best many segments of the country would see this as overturning an election based on a technicality�

At worst the takeover of government by the courts.

Either would spark riots and worse for years.

Frankly I wish it were that easy but it is not and sadly it is a dead issue� it is too hot to touch.

To keep this from happening again we need to stop constitutionally unqualified persons from running�
not try to get them out after they are elected.
If you allow him to sit as President if he were actually proven to be unqualified, then you have just nullified the highest law of our nation.

As to your last statement, you are dead-wrong. Technically, as I understood it, there was no law preventing him from running regardless of his qualifications. Where the lawbreaking comes into play is when he actually takes the oath of office. So there was no real redress for this before he was sworn in. Most folks thought that the Democrats wouldn't be stupid enough to run somebody whose whole Presidency could be negated.
Originally Posted by Gene L
Just like they've never did DNA tests to make sure he's human.
Now THERE'S a good idea!! laugh laugh

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They have refused to hear the issue, which makes it pretty well settled.
Uh, no, just the opposite..

They, and their families, want to survive.. They also know the ramifications of that potentially riot-inducing trial.. By using the 'non-standing' issue, they can avoid it all.. No balls, no blue ribbon..

They'll let the Liar In Chief hang himself, politically, and keep their distance, PC-wise... Like I said above, I hope I live long enough to actually find out the truth..




(thought I better add a couple smileys so the lefties won't think I'm actually serious..)
Originally Posted by Gene L
Just like they've never did DNA tests to make sure he's human.

They have refused to hear the issue, which makes it pretty well settled.
I have no idea whether he is qualified to hold the office or not, but the Birther side has compelling evidence and the Obama side can do nothing but obfuscate while attempting to discredit and humiliate the people asking the questions.
Well, they're dumb question.

What compelling evidence do the birthers have? The fact is, there is compelling evidence otherwise: his birth was recorded in the Hawaii newspaper on the date of his birth. Oh, I'm sure an argument can be made that his mother registered him as an American citizen and somehow forged his/her names on the hospital role, but is that an intelligent argument?

All those birthers remind me of the 9/11 Truthers. One has to ask, "What level of proof would be accepted by all those who question?"

The answer is "No level of proof would be accepted." It's like those who believe man did not go to the moon. Buying into an idea the reinforces one's hopes, and more important, WISHES, kinda eliminates room for the truth. It's much easier to believe what one wants rather than sidle up to the uncomfortable reality of what actually is.

At some point, instead of hanging hopes on the 1:TenZillion chance of proving him NOT born as a U.S. citizen, those Birthers need to put it behind them and get out and organize and vote against him.
One has to ask, "What level of proof would be accepted by all those who question?"
=============

Easy....the actual birth certificate. How do you address/respond to the 1981 passport travel to Pakistan question,Gene?

I think comparing it to 9-11 conspiracy theroies is rather foolish seeing that all that evidence had been looked at ad nauseum leading up to that investigation and report.

In this particular matter, no one has seen the actual, birth certificate. So, glaring differences exist subject to debate,for sure, but easily resolved,as well.

You've had to provide your original birth certificate for certain things in your life and you and I are nobodies. What's absurd about requesting a president to produce his/hers?
Gene, the proof the birthers have is all circumstantial. His grandmother saying he was born in Kenya. His wife saying in a speech in 2008 that they'd visited Obama's homeland of Kenya. No doctor name or even hospital being provided as to where he was born. Him attending state school in Indonesia when the country only allows citizens of Indonesia to attend state schools. Obama visiting Pakistan on an unknown passport during his college days. Lots of small things, not even sure any more which ones are even true.

And, as I understand it, Hawaii at the time of his birth would issue a certificate of live birth for babies born elsewhere. And anybody could put the notice in the paper.

I don't think there's anything to it.. but I'd like to see it resolved. I don't think it's anything but reasonable for the American people to ask the POTUS to prove citizenship by providing the original birth certificate and whatever else is necessary. Shouldn't even be able to run without being vetted.
Look cracker, I'm obamma, the supreme being. As dictater I don't have to show your honkey aze anythin.... peon.






In his own words, Tiger Woods... you SUCK!
The whole deal has been skewed and diminished by the Alinsky tactic of ridicule. I don't contend that he IS ineligible, but rather, that he has not supplied documents that remove any doubt. Hell, he would need more proof than that to work as a custodian in the White House. In addition, I would have serious doubt Obama could get a Yankee White clearance to even get in, given his past associations. The "birth certificate" produced, was in fact, a certificate of live birth. The two documents are not the same. Hey, I'm just a nobody, but I am an American, and he has not supplied enough information for me to be comfortable with his citizenship status. You may indeed, be legally right, (in the sense that O.J. is innocent) but that is not the end of it. Nobody will challenge it, lest they assume room temperature, figuratively, or in reality. To assign a buzzword - "birther"- to this line of thinking does exactly wht is intended. It diminishes their credibility. Dirty fighting at it's best.
I would imagine GWB supplied no documents to establish that he was an American citizen. I'd like to see proof!

I think folks should concentrate on voting him, and more important, his homies like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid out of office rather than tiresomely demanding proof that he is qualified to be in office.
Knock yourself out. I'm certain the records would be provided without the circus surrounding this guy. I did not always agree with the Bush's, but they are a class act. Not the description Obama inspires.
Originally Posted by bender
Knock yourself out. I'm certain the records would be provided without the circus surrounding this guy. I did not always agree with the Bush's, but they are a class act. Not the description Obama inspires.
Amen, brother... Amen..
Whether or not he inspires you has nothing to do with whether or not he's a citizen of the US.

I voted for Bush twice and think he was a joke both time. Less of a joke than Algore, but still...

I would think if anyone asked Bush to prove he was a citizen of the US he would be personally insulted and NOT provide proof or anything else that panders to a fringe demand. Anyone with balls would do the same.
McCain did. You're side-tracking instead of addressing the questions. Further, providing such documentation will be law before the next Presidential election.

Bam-Bam's citizenship qualifications were made an issue both before and after his election. With Bush Sr being president without question, why would his son's citizenship even be in question?

Bammy's was and is. It's not settled.
I think the fringe is longer than people think, and of course, if the request was an official one, the material would be provided, guaranteed. Anyways, you ignored the point I made regarding legality vs. ethical, with the O.J. trial as an example. The fact that he was found innocent, did not change my opinion, or many others, as to whether we thought he was guilty. Reality and the law are sometimes at odds. Another forinstance - "it depends on the meaning of is...". Didn't make me feel very good about Clintons innocence. Again, were he a CPO in the Navy, he'da been in the brig.
Originally Posted by Gene L
I would imagine GWB supplied no documents to establish that he was an American citizen. I'd like to see proof!

I think folks should concentrate on voting him, and more important, his homies like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid out of office rather than tiresomely demanding proof that he is qualified to be in office.
From what I've understood about all this, the document supporting his birth is not a Birth Certificate. The Certificate of Live Birth doesn't date from the day of his birth but was generated later. His birth certificate exists but is sealed. There was an announcement in the paper some months later. None of this proves his eligibility for the POTUS.

As to voting him out of office, I personally believe that most of the regulars here voted for McCain. As such, we did what we could. You've said several times we should all vote. I don't think, save for Derby, there are too many of us planning on doing otherwise. One really has little to do with the other. I also don't think anybody here is wasting much energy on the Birth issue, but hey, if you want to continue to urge people who normally vote to go vote, do so, although it does strike me as a bigger waste of energy than a little discussion about the birth thing.
Not accurate to compare GW with Obama. Bush didn't have a barely legal aged caucasian mother and an already married Kenyan father and a Kenyan grandmother who says she was present at his birth in Africa. He didn't have a foreign national as a step-father or attend school in that step-father's home country where citizenship is required to attend said school. Bush didn't travel on questionable credentials or get tuition possibly based on foreign identity. Lots of questions apply to Obama that in no way apply to Bush. And again, it would be so easy for this transparent administration to provide documents sufficient to eliminate all these suspicions. Gee, I wonder why they don't do that?
I haven't said this before but I'm not necessarily a "birther". What I am is intelligent enough to recognize questionable circumstances no one in government is willing to reconcile. And I have an extreme distrust for a federal government whose primary objective for decades now has been self perpetuation.
Since no one has apparently researched this, here's a link to the non-difference-that-matters between a Certificate of Live Birth and a Birth Certificate.

There are other sources if you wish to do your own research;

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_a_cert...e_thing_as_a_birth_certificate_in_Hawaii
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104044

BORN IN THE USA?
Pentagon orders soldier fired for challenging prez
Army warrior terminated from job after questioning Obama eligibility

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 15, 2009
3:08 pm Eastern


By Chelsea Schilling and Joe Kovacs
� 2009 WorldNetDaily

The Department of Defense has allegedly compelled a private employer to fire a U.S. Army Reserve major from his civilian job after he had his military deployment orders revoked for arguing he should not be required to serve under a president who has not proven his eligibility for office.

According to the CEO of Simtech Inc., a private company contracted by the Defense Security Services, an agency of the Department of Defense, the federal government has compelled the termination of Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook.

Cook's attorney, Orly Taitz, wrote in her blog that Simtech CEO Larry Grice said he would try to find another position within the company for Cook, but nothing is currently available.

The Department of Defense does contracting in the general field of information technology/systems integration, at which Cook, a senior systems engineer and architect, was employed until taking a military leave of absence on July 10 in preparation for his deployment to Afghanistan.

"Grice told plaintiff, in essence, that the situation had become 'nutty and crazy,' and that plaintiff would no longer be able to work at his old position," Taitz wrote.

Grice made clear that it was Defense Security Services that had compelled Simtech to fire Cook, Taitz wrote.

According to the report, Grice told Cook "there was some gossip that 'people were disappointed in' the plaintiff because they thought he was manipulating his deployment orders to create a platform for political purposes."

The Simtech CEO then discussed Cook's expectation of final paychecks, without any severance pay, and wished the soldier well.

Messages left with Grice's office had not been returned at the time of this report.

"A federal agency (such as the Department of Defense, acting through the Defense Security Services Agency) clearly violates the Whistleblower Protection Act if it takes or fails to take (or threatens to take or fail to take) a personnel action with respect to any employee or applicant because of any disclosure of information by the employee or applicant that he or she reasonably believes evidences a violation of a law, rule or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety," Taitz wrote.

"What has happened in the present case of Stefan Frederick Cook is that a federal agency appears to have taken action against Stefan Frederick Cook's private employer, Simtech, Inc., which is a closely held corporation owned and operated by members of a single family, who are as much victims of the Department of Defense's heavy-handed interference with plaintiff Cook's private-sector employment as is plaintiff Cook himself."

As WND reported, Taitz confirmed to WND the military rescinded Maj. Cook's impending deployment orders.

"We won! We won before we even arrived," she said with excitement. "It means that the military has nothing to show for Obama. It means that the military has directly responded by saying Obama is illegitimate � and they cannot fight it. Therefore, they are revoking the order!"

She continued, "They just said, 'Order revoked.' No explanation. No reasons � just revoked."

A hearing on the questions raised by Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook, an engineer who told WND he wants to serve his country in Afghanistan, is still scheduled for July 16 at 9:30 a.m.

Join the petition campaign to make President Obama reveal his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate!

"As an officer in the armed forces of the United States, it is [my] duty to gain clarification on any order we may believe illegal. With that said, if President Obama is found not to be a 'natural-born citizen,' he is not eligible to be commander-in-chief," he told WND only hours after his case was originally filed.

"[Then] any order coming out of the presidency or his chain of command is illegal. Should I deploy, I would essentially be following an illegal [order]. If I happened to be captured by the enemy in a foreign land, I would not be privy to the Geneva Convention protections," he said.

The order for the hearing in the federal court for the Middle District of Georgia from U.S. District Judge Clay D. Land said the hearing on the request for a temporary restraining order would be held Thursday.

Want to turn up the pressure to learn the facts? Get your signs and postcards asking for the president's birth certificate documentation here.

Cook said without a legitimate president as commander-in-chief, members of the U.S. military in overseas actions could be determined to be "war criminals and subject to prosecution."

He said the vast array of information about Obama that is not available to the public confirms to him "something is amiss."

"That and the fact the individual who is occupying the White House has not been entirely truthful with anybody," he said. "Every time anyone has made an inquiry, it has been either cast aside, it has been maligned, it has been laughed at or just dismissed summarily without further investigation.

"You know what. It would be so simple to solve. Just produce the long-form document, certificate of live birth," he said.

Cook said he was scheduled to report for duty today to deploy to Afghanistan as part of President Obama's plan to increase pressure of insurgent forces there.

He told WND he would be prepared for a backlash against him as a military officer, since members of the military swear to uphold and follow their orders. However, he noted that following an illegal order would be just as bad as failing to follow a legal order.

Just before news of the orders being revoked were reported, MSNBC anchor Keith Olbermann called Cook a "jackass" and Taitz a "conwoman," as he labeled both of them the "worst persons in the world." He flayed the soldier as "an embarrassment to all those who have served without cowardice."

Named as defendants in the case are Col. Wanda Good, Col. Thomas Macdonald, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Obama, described as "de facto president of the United States."

According to the court filing, Cook affirmed when he joined the military, he took the following oath: "I, Stefan Frederick Cook, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

However, he later took the following officer oath: "I, Stefan Frederick Cook, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of Major do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

According to the claim, "Plaintiff submits that it is implicit though not expressly stated that an officer is and should be subject to court-martial, because he will be derelict in the performance of his duties, if he does not inquire as to the lawfulness, the legality, the legitimacy of the orders which he has received, whether those orders are specific or general."

The military courts offer no option for raising the question, so he turned to civilian courts to consider "a question of paramount constitutional and legal importance: the validity of the chain of command under a president whose election, eligibility, and constitutional status appear open to serious question."

"Barack Hussein Obama, in order to prove his constitutional eligibility to serve as president, basically needs only produce a single unique historical document for the Plaintiff�s inspection and authentication: namely, the 'long-form' birth certificate which will confirm whether Barack Hussein Obama was in fact born to parents who were both citizens of the United States in Honolulu, Hawaii, in or about 1961," explains the complaint.

Taitz said she will attend the hearing to amend the temporary restraining order to an injunction because more members of the military have joined the cause.

"We are going to be asking for release of Obama's records because now this completely undermines the military. It revoked this order, but it can come up with another order tomorrow. It can come up with orders for other people," she said. "Am I going to be flying around the country 1,000 times and paying the fees every time they issue an order?"

Defendant Col. Wanda Good filed a motion to dismiss the plaintiff's action for a temporary restraining order "for lack of jurisdiction" today.

"This case no longer presents a live case or controversy, nor does Major Cook have standing to pursue his claim," it states, "therefore, the Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction over his claims and they should be dismissed."

It continued, "The Commanding General of SOCCENT has determined that he does not want the services of Major Cook, and has revoked his deployment orders. .. Without mobilization orders, Major Cook lacks standing to pursue his claims."

But Taitz said the issue "must be resolved immediately," and she will continue working to ensure Obama proves he is eligible for office.

"We're going to be asking the judge to issue an order for Obama to provide his vital records to show he is legitimately president," she said. "We're going to say, we have orders every day, and we'll have revocations every day. This issue has to be decided."

She said there cannot be any harm to the president if he is legitimately holding office.

"If he is legitimate, then his vital records will prove it," Taitz said. "If he is illegitimate, then he should not have been there in the first place."

Asked what this decision means for every other serviceman who objects to deployment under a president who has not proven he is eligible for office, Taitz responded:

"Now, we can have each and every member of the military � each and every enlistee and officer � file something similar saying 'I will not take orders until Obama is legitimately vetted.'"

Multiple questions have been raised about what that would mean to the 2008 election, to the orders and laws Obama has signed and other issues, including whether he then is a valid commander-in-chief of the military.
Now Jason, you're just being a plain ole trouble maker grin
Originally Posted by isaac
One has to ask, "What level of proof would be accepted by all those who question?"
=============

Easy....the actual birth certificate. How do you address/respond to the 1981 passport travel to Pakistan question,Gene?

I think comparing it to 9-11 conspiracy theroies is rather foolish seeing that all that evidence had been looked at ad nauseum leading up to that investigation and report.

In this particular matter, no one has seen the actual, birth certificate. So, glaring differences exist subject to debate,for sure, but easily resolved,as well.

You've had to provide your original birth certificate for certain things in your life and you and I are nobodies. What's absurd about requesting a president to produce his/hers?


Holy crap, I agree with you again. This has got to stop! grin
For an army to work orders have to be orders. The current concept is that only lawful order are orders. However, claiming that BHO isn't qualified to give the order so you don't have to obey it is like refusing an order from a lieutenant because you think he cheated on a final exam in ROTC. There are plenty of smart ways to appose BHO instead of stupid ones like refusing military orders.
This is can all be easily put into context with what is required of you as a juror in a criminal trial.....

The catch phrase here is "beyond reasonable doubt".

Is Obama a Natural Born Citizen, yes or no? With that, is he a Natural Born Citizen "beyond reasonable doubt"?


The answer is NO and if it isn't, you sure as hell shouldn't be sitting on a jury.
Originally Posted by husqvarna
For an army to work orders have to be orders. The current concept is that only lawful order are orders. However, claiming that BHO isn't qualified to give the order so you don't have to obey it is like refusing an order from a lieutenant because you think he cheated on a final exam in ROTC. There are plenty of smart ways to appose BHO instead of stupid ones like refusing military orders.


You're right. Unfortunately, seems like lots of people are determined to prove sterotypes about their intelligence.

The "beyond a reasonable doubt" has pretty much been proved with the announcement in the paper at BO's birth and the Certificate of Live birth. If anyone doesn't believe these rather compelling pieces of information, then you'd be interested in purchasing my interview with the UFO alien living in my backyard.\

It's only $10. PM me for delivery.
You're too easy,Gene. I'll bet the illegal immigrants sure loved it when you were the one questioning their legal status.

Sorry you're having difficulties with the concept of two very different documents and evidentiary burdens of proof but now you at least have a bit of understanding of how defense lawyers were able to obtain not guilties with some of your cases.
Probably the lawyers weren't of your quality. In my years as a cop, I lost only one case, in fact. And what law school teaches the necessity of proof of innocence rather than proof of guilt?

Are you interested in my interview with the space alien?
This isn't evidence of proof or guilt,you should know that. It's simply verification, you know...like documents produced via a subpoena.

And, if you had more than 50 jury or bench trials and you try to suggest you only lost one, then the interview should occur because it had to have happened somewhere out in space. It sure didn't happen in a courtroom or,if it did, you have a most self -serving definition of lost in your memory banks.
That is, in fact, what I'm not only suggesting, but insisting.

I worked mostly drugs where the evidence of guilt was overwhelming and legally obtained. It's rare (or was then) to lose a drug case. Don't see how anyone can...it's direct evidence.

The case I lost was before a jury, and the doper was a student whom the jury just didn't want to convict.

Lots of cases settled out of court of course. But no, lost only one. If you're winning drug cases you're one hotshot lawyer, or the LE officers are pisspoor.

And no, mostly they were NOT jury or bench cases as the evidence was so overwhelming as to make such kinda uselss...like proving Obama is a US citizen. If you go back and re-read my post, I didn't say "trials," I said "cases."
Gee Gene that's all great for your bio and all but how about a response to the issue at hand? You know, you thinking it was a guilt or innocence question and my comment it's simply a verification,production of documents issue.

There's more verification with chain of custody docs and lab analysis' with your 100% win cases(save 1)than Bam-Bam has had to produce to be Prez! Go figure them apples!

Did the live birth announcement newspaper clippings the illegals gave you during or after drug busts settle their immigration status in your mind?

A jury nullified you and your evidence,huh? Ouchie!! Did you say something about interviewing space aliens when cross examined as to your informant?
Your unimpressive reading skills undermine your qualifications to comment on evidence. Or are you a judge as well as a lawyer?

You sound like a kid... "Oh yeah? Well, that might be SO, but..." and go off on a tangent. Looks like I now know TWO space cadets.
Well I can tell you guys one thing or maybe even two; try getting a passport or Social Security with a certificate of live birth and see how far you get.
HUH?? What the Hell are you talking about,Gene? You dabbling in the sparkling cider tonight,bud? Try and stay focused.

I hope that didn't sound like one of your prosecutors!
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Gene, the proof the birthers have is all circumstantial. His grandmother saying he was born in Kenya. His wife saying in a speech in 2008 that they'd visited Obama's homeland of Kenya. No doctor name or even hospital being provided as to where he was born. Him attending state school in Indonesia when the country only allows citizens of Indonesia to attend state schools. Obama visiting Pakistan on an unknown passport during his college days. Lots of small things, not even sure any more which ones are even true.

And, as I understand it, Hawaii at the time of his birth would issue a certificate of live birth for babies born elsewhere. And anybody could put the notice in the paper.

I don't think there's anything to it.. but I'd like to see it resolved. I don't think it's anything but reasonable for the American people to ask the POTUS to prove citizenship by providing the original birth certificate and whatever else is necessary. Shouldn't even be able to run without being vetted.
That pretty well sums up my view on the matter, as well.
Good luck with this one as our courts seem to think that a citizen of the US has no standing in court to question the legitamacy of someone who is elected to office but has offered no proof of his legitamacy and in fact has hid lots of details of his past,.hmmm to me primafacia evidence and gosh I am not even a lawyer or legal scolar. Our legal and political system has certainly taken a turn away from common sense. Ocman's razor and all that stuff that worked for many year. Remember reading about the old west circuit court judges who carried one or two law books with them as they made their rounds. I wonder how they would rule on this case.. lol
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Well I can tell you guys one thing or maybe even two; try getting a passport or Social Security with a certificate of live birth and see how far you get.


My certificate is a "certificate of birth." No problems getting a SSN or a passport. Don't know how this differs from a Certificate of Live Birth" except I was born alive. And according to the link, it doesn't matter in Hawaii, either.

It was a plot, back in 1945. The certifying official apparently thought I was going to be president some day. So he issued this certificate, which does NOT say "Birth Certificate." Says "Certificate of Birth."

Legal minds are aboggle.
Gene as I said in the other thread, my daughter was born in the U.K. Her birth certificate was issued by the local British government. Shortly after her birth we sent the paperwork to the American Embassy in London, in return we recieved an American "Certificate of Birth". Anytime she's had show proof of birth they require her British birth certificate, not her "Certificate of Birth".
Originally Posted by isaac
HUH?? What the Hell are you talking about,Gene? You dabbling in the sparkling cider tonight,bud? Try and stay focused.

I hope that didn't sound like one of your prosecutors!


More like some ditch weed he confiscated from some teenagers. He didn't realize it was spiked with acid.

Turn off the White Album Gene and go to bed.
My certificate isn't an American (Federal) per se, it's a Georgia birth certificate and maintained by the state records office. In perpuity. Your case is different, I would imagine, and required a different doccument.
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by isaac
HUH?? What the Hell are you talking about,Gene? You dabbling in the sparkling cider tonight,bud? Try and stay focused.

I hope that didn't sound like one of your prosecutors!


More like some ditch weed he confiscated from some teenagers. He didn't realize it was spiked with acid.

Turn off the White Album Gene and go to bed.


Looks like Cocktail Hour for the Fringe. Drink up, fellows, and pretend it isn't Kool Aid you're drinking. Just don't forget to vote this November.
Just don't forget to vote this November.
_________________________



I'll do that as a certainty,Gene. Who are the players in Georgia you're thinking of pulling the lever for? How many are up to the plate?
No politicking at this point. It's still very early. Govenor has been a bummer, but he's limited to two terms. My state rep is retiring and not all have announced.

GA has been republican for a few years now. Pols remain the same, however.
It certainly was an energized crowd for Hannity in Atlanta last night. He had several conservatives from Georgia on early in the program, including Herman Cain (whom I had never heard of), who announced he might consider a run at the presidency if his health issues were cleared up.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Gene, the proof the birthers have is all circumstantial. His grandmother saying he was born in Kenya. His wife saying in a speech in 2008 that they'd visited Obama's homeland of Kenya. No doctor name or even hospital being provided as to where he was born. Him attending state school in Indonesia when the country only allows citizens of Indonesia to attend state schools. Obama visiting Pakistan on an unknown passport during his college days. Lots of small things, not even sure any more which ones are even true.

And, as I understand it, Hawaii at the time of his birth would issue a certificate of live birth for babies born elsewhere. And anybody could put the notice in the paper.

I don't think there's anything to it.. but I'd like to see it resolved. I don't think it's anything but reasonable for the American people to ask the POTUS to prove citizenship by providing the original birth certificate and whatever else is necessary. Shouldn't even be able to run without being vetted.
That pretty well sums up my view on the matter, as well.


+2 That sums it up well.

I will say that I have my doubts that BO will ever resolve his BC without a court order, it would be caving in to his political opposition and at the moment leaving things are they are is driving people crazy.
Extordinary claims require extraordinarly proof. I personally think the claim of BO being not qualified by birth an extraordinary claim, and not his responsibility to further the obvious proof (already provided here) of his birthplace.

Circumstantial claims from his grandmother notwithstanding. My grandma didn't know where I was born (at home) either. I have only my daughter's word, which I trust, that my grandson was born in New York. I wasn't there and have not seen his birth cerificate. I would take it as offensive for someone to claim otherwise, and think it was their claim to prove. And apparently BO's OTHER grandmother the American said he was born in Hawii. Why is this circumstantial evidence not credited? So it goes.

Let's move on to getting him voted out of office.
Birth aside, we do have evidence that 0bama's mother married a foreign national and that 0bama did live in Indonesia. Adoption by the foreign national would give 0bama citizenship in that country.

0bama is not Natural Born, he is a dual citizen.
Originally Posted by Gene L
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Well I can tell you guys one thing or maybe even two; try getting a passport or Social Security with a certificate of live birth and see how far you get.


My certificate is a "certificate of birth." No problems getting a SSN or a passport. Don't know how this differs from a Certificate of Live Birth" except I was born alive. And according to the link, it doesn't matter in Hawaii, either.

It was a plot, back in 1945. The certifying official apparently thought I was going to be president some day. So he issued this certificate, which does NOT say "Birth Certificate." Says "Certificate of Birth."

Legal minds are aboggle.


If you are old enough to be collecting SS before embossed Birth Certificates became mandatory I doubt you will suddenly lose your SS but in the future you might have a serious problem with a Certificate of Birth that is not embossed when getting or renewing your passport. I had to get a new Birth Certificate that is embossed and real fancy. A photo copy of the birth certificate with a ink stamp is unacceptable for obtaining legal Federal documents for travel and identification.
Originally Posted by Gene L
Extordinary claims require extraordinarly proof. I personally think the claim of BO being not qualified by birth an extraordinary claim, and not his responsibility to further the obvious proof (already provided here) of his birthplace.

Circumstantial claims from his grandmother notwithstanding. My grandma didn't know where I was born (at home) either. I have only my daughter's word, which I trust, that my grandson was born in New York. I wasn't there and have not seen his birth cerificate. I would take it as offensive for someone to claim otherwise, and think it was their claim to prove. And apparently BO's OTHER grandmother the American said he was born in Hawii. Why is this circumstantial evidence not credited? So it goes.

Let's move on to getting him voted out of office.


Gene,

If you had one daughter who said her son was born in New York and another daughter who said she was there when the boy was born in Maryland, then how would you reconcile the discrepancy in a legal matter?
It wouldn't be an issue, quite frankly. If you had two dautghers making entirely different claims, I suggest there is a bigger problem than where a kid was born. I hope it isn't a problem with you. Also, if I had a daughter in, say, Afghanistan I think I would give less credence than to my daughter who was the birth mother.

I've had to prove my birthplace on a few occasions, and completly trust the sources and those who interprety those sources.
Put me with the moot point people....actually I think BHO is an alien - prove to me he's not - no matter where he was born his mother could have been inseminated with alien sperm. Or he could have been transported to Earth and the microfiche magically manipulated. Aliens could have manufactured him to be indistinguishable from a natural human...etc, etc, etc.

You could have ten legitimate complaints against his presidency and as soon as you bring in the birther argument you immediately lose all credibility....you might as well argue his astrological sign, put some crystals in your pocket and wear a pyramid around your neck.

As some have suggested, this might be the smartest move the Dems could have made - legally and procedurally the issue is over and done...but leave a window for some to keep bringing up and they thereby lose any actual credibility they may have had...

Those who ride the "birth horse" also believe Elvis lives down the street, OJ didn't kill his wife, Bush personally planted explosives in the WTC and go to bed every night hoping to be transported to heaven aboard the Hale-Bopp asteroid.

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