One of my pards and I were running and gunning coyotes on some cranberry bogs last Friday. It was my turn to do the scoping while he did the calling and shooting. We were set up in a prone position on top of a dike with an excellent view of some bogs. Three deer broke out across a dike about 250 yards out. Shortly after I noticed movement along the edge of a bog. Swung the spotting scope over to the object and there was a guy standing in some shoulder high brush looking at me with binoculars. He melted back into the brush and I whispered to my pard not to shoot left of high noon in that direction.

A few minutes went by and were about to move our set when a warden came up behind us and another one further off to our left. The first warden finished checking our licenses and the second one arrived cussing at us for pointing a loaded rifle at him. When he finished his tirade I reached down into the grass beside me and showed them my mounted spotting scope. There was a pause then the warden lectured me about pointing the mounted scope at a hunter or another person.

I could see his point because at a distance the scope set resembles a gun with scope. I told him, first of all, I do not make it a practice to scope another person because of the perception and secondly, I will continue to use the setup for varmint hunting and wildlife observation. End of discussion.

Do you think I should discontinue the use of my set up?

Only if it's too stinky after you shove it up his azz.

Pretty damn good idea for spotting, IMO. Cut the forearm off as far back as you can without messing up the point of mounting it on a stock, and paint that stock bright orange.

I'd be pissed if I saw some do pointing something at me I thought was a hot rifle..

No

I don't have a problem with what you did.

But I also see the issue the warden has. from his distance he couldn't tell what you were pointing. I get an uneasy feeling when the scopes are pointed my direction in a gun shop and they're mounted similar to yours.

I suppose you carry the thing "hot" too, right? (Everyone please note the )

That's what they get for sneaking around in the woods and not making their prescience known. I don't think you were at fault at all..!

There is a camo condom that goes over the scope. If the stock is painted bright orange wiley coyote is going to mark me pronto. However, I agree with your concern about a potential loaded rifle pointed at me.

If the Warden would not have been hiding and sneaking it would not have happened either. It was a spotter, so no harm no fowl

Sorry, I see nothing wrong there. Yes it might be a bit disconcerting to the spotee, but once the true nature of the item is known that should have been the end of the discussion IMHO.

Spot on as usual

That's my point, too. When the warden realized he had not had a rifle pointed at him, he should have manned up and let it go, rather than trying to save his manliness and chew somebody out. He acted like a little kid.

Works both ways , under the right conditions the warden with his binoculars could have looked like someone pointing a scoped rifle at YOU.


Mike

Some people have to have the last word no matter what, right & wrong has no bearing on it, simply proving in their mind they have power.

I agree but having spent time in the crosshairs of an idiot I can find sympathy for the way he felt. I am thinking there might have been a bit more adrenalin still flowing around in his blood than normal. I would not be too hard on him for feeling the way he did.

If I'd been the warden and saw a 'gun' aiming my way, I'd have hit the dirt. However, he had no business chewing on anyone for using a scope after he found out what it was.

I'd re-think this setup. Suppose you pointed your spotting scope at another hunter, and he thought you were pointing a rifle at him, and he got angry and started shooting at you. Things could go south quickly.

I'm not saying your setup is right or wrong, just think about your own, and your partner's, safety.

N
O

We're on the same page. I wouldn't have been too hard on him either; I'd have just chewed back or laughed at him.

Roundoak,
I guess thats the "like it or lump it" position and your probably quite within your rights to stick to that stance.

However, playing Devils Advocate for a second, if the position were reversed, how would you like it?

Also, could using that set-up result in further hassle? I'm thinking what if somebody called a LEO because they felt you were using a "rifle" inappropriately?

Sometimes, just because you have the lawfully right to do something, doesn't necessarily make it a good idea so to speak...

Anyway, away from the "ethics aspect", what mag is the scope?
And is there any particular reason why you choose that set up over a conventional tripod???

I have a Nikon 50ED with a x27 eyepiece and while I can hand hold it using my stalking sticks as a steady, putting it on a tripod makes it far more effective..

Regards,

Peter

Depends on, what would you think if someone was pointing what you felt was a scoped rifle at you. If you are ok with that, then continue its use. If not somehow modify your scoping setup where it might not be taken as offensive. GW

IMHO the Gamey is an idiot. If I understand correctly he was observing you from a position well within your field of fire. Ken

well, 'officer safety', or the officer perception of his safety, trumps everything.

That says it all right there.

To avoid a problem in the future if somebdy sees you glassing them just hold it up sideways so they can see what it is.

Pretty funny, I got much the same treatment going through a barricade on the SRS bomb plant back in about 1990. I had a spotting scope on an airrifle stock. It was sticking butt-up out of a box in the van when a Whackin' Off guard (oops make that a Wackenhut guard) went ballistic.

Something about a "simulated weapon". I thought real weapons were the only issue...

Peter E, The Redfield has 18x to 40x glass in it. I do use it with its tripod and telescoping camera tripod, however in some instances I find it very handy to mount it on the gun stock. Straped into a backpack there is very little set up time over a truck hood, rock, log, fence post, pack, coat and etc.

As stated in my initial post, I do not make it a practice to scope individuals and that action has kept me out of trouble with the set up since 1985, until now of course. If I can maintain that record for the next 25 years I will continue to feel good about the way the setup was utilized.

I use to hunt Minnesota and Wisconsin each year for about 15 season...

I hate to say this, as I usually support LEOs...but I don't know what it is in Wisconsin and its DNR...

I've met a few really laid back and decent DNR guys in Wisconsin... but I have also met more A Holes with the 'short man complex in a position of power' among their ranks than anywhere else...

you weren't doing anything wrong RoundOak and also once you showed the officer what you set up was, to remove all doubt, he didn't need to shift gears and then give you the DNR lecture he did...

These guys just like to push scenarios so that they can write citations.. sorry but I have seen it first hand, many more times that once...

they tried it with me besides other people in our party, I just wouldn't bite the bait...

eg, we had one 19 yr old kid in our party... a DNR guy comes up to him and asks to see his license... then also asked him where his back tag was? Kenny said it was on his back.. the DNR guy told him it wasn't..

So he takes off his jacket and hat ( orange), shows the DNR guy the tag...and asking him irritated.. YOU COULDN'T SEE THAT???

the DNR guy, with his attending "witness" told him.. " Oh I saw it, I just wanted to see if you knew it was there....then he wrote Kenny up for being out deer hunting without having Orange on... Kenny tells him "I just took it off to show you the tag, that you could see in the first place!!!..."

"Doesn't matter, you don't have it on now and you have a rifle in your possession and you are hunting..."

So he was busy writing Kenny a citation.. I had observed it from a tree stand probably within a 100 meters..

I climbed down and went over and since Kenny was in our party, stuck my nose into it..

the DNR officer told me to mind my own business.. I told him he was pulling a fast one to give a citation to one of our younger boys in the party, and I observed the entire thing, and it was told entrapment and Bs...

His response was " good you can go into court with him if he decides to try and fight it.. I have my "witness" right here..

well we went to court.. and I drove 200 miles over there and came in as Kenny's witness.. Kenny lived down in Madison.. and this was out of Tomahawk...

Kenny gave his side after the DNR guy gave his story backed up by his "witness"...not only did I tell the judge that I had observed this incident, I had observed the same officer out pulling the same thing on several other people...

This clown evidently had a local rep for being an A HOLE, even among the locals... the gal at the local store was telling us that his witness was his brother in law, and he took him along, probably to keep from him being shot with no witnesses....

That isn't enforcing laws, that is creating problems to create job security for himself...

I'd say No.

The Warden was looking at you with binocs and he couldn't tell what it was? I'd tell him to call Doug and upgrade whatever it is he has....

Nice spotter set up...keep using it.

Roundoak,

As I said, I was simply playing Devils Advocate; the last thing I would want to see is a member here accused of "road hunting" or something similar because they were quite innocently using that set up from a truck, and were reported to a Warden or other LEO..

Regards,

Peter

RO

NO--HELL NO!

You were/are right and the warden wrong.

Keep using it!

WN

roundoak-

Heck no - keep on using it. I have a very similar set up though mine is cut back quite a bit more. A few years back I was parked alongside a road one fall evening observing a couple of whitetail bucks in a field. A car came flying up behind me, the guy wailing on his horn and shouting from his car. (He thought I was shooting at the deer!) He pulled up alongside me to chew me a new one - his face grew quite red when he discovered he was looking at my spotting scope.

Keep using it. But it does indeed look very much like a rifle and if you point it in the wrong direction and get yourself shot because someone hears a shot and sees you pointing what looks very much like a rifle at them, that is just the chance that you are willing to take I guess. Not worth it to me. Does look great though. And don't forget. It is always the other person's fault.

If you keep using it.. Just keep in mind that if some other dude sees you pointing it at them, and perceives that he is threatened, he might return fire. Cut the stock down and paint it orange..

I think the warden should thank you very much for being so diligent in spotting him in your field of fire and directing the shooter to avoid the area he was in. If he had his binocs at 250 yards and he had any kind of gun/woodcraft sense he knew damn good and well it wasn't a firearm. I'm going to say that at 250 yards with a pair of 7x35s I can almost tell the make and model of a rifle and certainly whether it is one or not. He sounds like a D**khead to me.

Alan

+1

You CAN keep using it...

But if the state statted issuing spotting scopes like yours to Wardens to use regularly in the field, would you think it was a good idea or bad idea?

Doesn't matter to me either way, just asking.

They already do and I have no problem with it.

WN

Wyoming Wardens have been using that same setup for decades. Someone just needs to pull the pink thong out a little!

Lots of those in the WI DNR.

That's a sad story Seafire and a shame that folks like him are in the field. I've generally had decent experiences with the wardens.

As for the topic at hand, he was out of line for lambasting you. He put himself in a position where he knew it could occur and has no reason to protest. I would press forward to continuing it's use if it works for you.

was checked by 2 very nice young Miss gamewardens today on a dove field. Chatted awile and back to poppin doves. On the other hand if the one that gave you the toungue lashing had been there I'd told him to go pizz up a rope and to hit the road.
We don't put up with that down here...

That is odd. Several years ago (about 12 years) I mounted a small Leupold spotting scope to a gunstock at the request of one of our game wardens.

I mounted an aluminum block into the stock. The scope was held in place by a 1/4" screw which extended from the bottom of the stock, through the block and into the threads on the bottom of the scope. I worked really slick.

The warden still uses it even though he is now retired from the state of Wyoming.

Our "Possum Cops" are top-shelf.

After reading all the above posts and shooting the breeze for a couple of hours with the boys down at the local watering hole, I am not going to change the set up. It has served me well for years without incident.

Will be up at the cranberry bogs again this week looking for yotes.

I wouldn't change it either, I was just saying that I understand where he's coming from. He could have explained himself without being a di*khead though.

If he'd had prescience, he would have already known that it wasn't a firearm.

About 50 years ago when cameras and telephoto lenses were bigger than they are now, my family was in the hills of Virginny. My photography looney dad had mounted his giant lens and camera on a gun stock which made it much quicker to get wildlife pictures, especially on uneven terrain.
We pulled off the road near an old house, jumped out of the car to photo some critters. As dad was setting the exposure, (no auto stuff back then), an old man came out of the house and let loose with one barrel of his SxS shotgun.
Thought we were fixing to pop one of his cows I guess. Nobody hurt and after explanations and appologies we all had a good laugh later.
Luckily the old gentleman fired that warning shot into the air and not us. If you keep using that rig I pray that you continue to receive a "warning shot" and not something worse. It's a nice set up, but you have to weigh the pros and all of the possible cons.

The thing about hunting is, most times, the hunter is trying to keep his whereabouts a secret, especially with coyotes. Having the place crawling with humans doesn't help the hunting. I've never appreciated a game warden checking me while I was in the act of hunting or fishing. It is an imposition on my very limited time while lawfully doing something that I greatly enjoy. For a game warden to simply stop me while fishing to check my fire extinguisher and such or come walking up on my hunt to check my plug or license is, in itself, out of line. If I am actively and blatantly violating a game law (i.e. jack lighting, shooting ducks before or after sunrise/sunset, shooting five times in rapid succession, etc) then OK come check, but not just because it suits them to do so. I would be plenty pissed if I had finally gotten a day off to go coyote hunting, driven out to do so, set up, started calling and then found out that I had called up two game wardens. It wouldn't have mattered what they said.

For Game wardens, probable cause is simply being in the field. That shouldn't be.

Alan

I am thinking very seriously of sending my Hot Dog and Little Dog howlers back to Primos because they are defective. Sure they call in yotes but they call in game wardens too.

This ain't over yet. I called a couple of my contacts at the WDNR office in Black River Falls WI this morning and discussed the Friday incident. They both suggested I take the incident up the ladder so I called and left a message with their Supervisor. He returned my call a few minutes ago and he asked for a picture of my spotting scope rig and I e-mailed it while we were still talking. The Super said he has used a similar setup for years.

My buddy and I are typing up a statement of the events that happened that day and will forward to the Super. If nothing else, maybe the warden will get written up and placed in his personnel file.

I have an old B&L spotting scope from the 1960's mounted on an '03 Springfield stock that I use all the time. I never point it at people because I realize that I could very easily get shot doing so. If someone thinks I am aiming a rifle at them they would be quite justified in their minds to shoot first and ask questions later.

I don't point rifles at people and I don't point things that look like rifles at people. Your rig looks like a rifle.

I can see the guy getting wound up about what he perceived as a threat. He should have, however, backed off when he saw what was going on - as long as you were treating him with the same repect you would expect him to show you.

How big are these bogs you are talking about? As a long time coyote caller I see your set up doing far more harm than good in a calling situation. Unless these bogs are miles across I suspect you are doing far more spooking than spotting!

What I would be miffed about is why these guys didn't wait to check you out at your vehicle. Screwing up a hunt is bullcrap, pure and simple.

Thats what happens when you sneak around in the brush when people are hunting. Of course you are going to check out motion with your scope. He was not easily identified as a person, so I dont see how he can find fault with it.

The only issue here, is that your "binocs" looked like a rifle to him. Other than that these setups have been around for eons. As soon as you see its a person, you quit looking so they don't think its a rifle.

I could see being upset as the warden and I personally probably would have mentioned it when I talked to you, that it could be mistaken, but no harm no foul, just to be careful with it as I'd hate to see someone else shoot you.

As to the first glance.... I mean the warden is there snooping... you can only be SO certain of your target and what is beyond.... their risk goes with the job... always trying to sneak up to folks with guns... its dangerous... hell if I don't know you are there sneaking up on me and a duck etc... flies by low and I know its safe, nothing back there but brush, I"m gonna shoot.... You take that risk as a warden when you sign on to the job voluntarily. And I'm damn glad that you took the job as a warden, much appreciated and more are needed

Hello Joe788, the cranberry bogs we hunt on vary in size from 20 acres to 1/4 sections. The guy I hunt yotes with traps beaver for the cranberry growers to keep their canals and waterways free flowing. He beat my azz in a skeet shoot about 15 years and we got to talking hunting afterwards and he invited me to hunt yotes and now we make it a point to hunt two or three times a year at the cranberry farms.

As far as our setups spooking yotes and doing more harm then good, I think we have done extremely well on yotes the last 15 years on these bogs, thank you.

Come on guys! Some of you are saying that you might get shot using this set up? So its ok to shoot someone that you percieve to be looking at you through a rifle scope, but its not ok to mount your spotting scope to rifle stock? That is ridiculous! If someone shoots at you then they are going to prison. Nobody wants to risk that.

RoundOak, just keep using your set up and things will be fine. Obviously, you cant paint it orange for coyote hunting. The Warden was in the wrong. He should not have been coming up on your set like that in the first place. If your going to be walking through land that people are hunting, your likely to get scoped out. If I am watching a creek bed, and I see motion in the brush, I put the scope on it. Standard hunting practice.

Dont recall if the OP mentioned it, but did the warden have a good amount of orange on so he wouldnt be shot?

"If I am watching a creek bed, and I see motion in the brush, I put the scope on it. Standard hunting practice."


Sorry, but it's not standard practice for me. I have binoculars to identify things before I raise my rifle.

Safety first and foremost.

Just saw this post and only read the OP...and Bullet butts response..



Bulletbutt was right....


Ingwe

Might want to change up to a quality all weather stock though and glass bed the spotting scope so it holds zero.

This crap about "if the warden/guy had been wearing orange" is a real crock of schit. I know several guys who are colorblind. Orange makes no difference to them. If you use the telscopic sights on a high powered rifle to identify a target, you NEED to get your ass kicked. It ain't about color or hot/cold chamber,it is all about genuine safe handling. Like DON'T POINT YER RIFLE AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT!!! And I have no prob with the OP using his set-up as he did. And the warden was right to be frazzled over it. but it was NOT a rifle and it was shown. End of story.



added:Using a rifle scope to ID a target is one of the trash practices I usually expect to hear from a NYC idiot. Sorta like the infamous "sound shot" Standard hunting practice for them???

Jim...check your Email....woody

Yes, I would discontinue the use of the current set-up to avoid getting shot. If I see someone pointing that set-up at me, and it looks like a gun, I will shoot back. Of course the warden was pissed...put yourself in his shoes. Make it look like something other than a gun.

http://www.cameralandny.com/opticaccessories/stedistock.pl?page=stedistockcamerashoulderbrace

Enjoy your time in prision.

You have to joking or out of your friggin' mind. Are going shoot at the first reflection of single lens without taking the time to see what it really is?

It's schit like this and pointing a scoped rifle to identify something moving in the brush that causes shooting accidents.

Both of you need bish slapped and loose your priveledge to hunt as far as I'm concerned. Either that or take a basic Hunters Safety class and pay attention this time.

UNFREAKINREAL.

Agreed. I do suppose hwoever, if you tried sneaking up on the squirrel sheriff to make him [purposely] nervous by continuously pointing your "fake gun" at them, then maybe you'd be guilty of harrassing them .....

But if you were going about normal activities and using your handy-mounted spotter like it sounds ..... I'd remind the squirrel sheriff of a former Soviet (and still Rooshun) saying ..... "toughski [bleep]!"

Also agreed!

LOL I was wondering if someone was going to trash my raunchy old M98 sporter stock.

Thanks, bcp. I believe I will dump my old M98 sporter stock and throw some money at solving the issue. The shoulder stock should even look innocent enough to glass babes at the beach.

A lot of people are fairly quick on the trigger and work under the assumption that the only reason to aim a gun at something is to shoot that something. The old "tried by 12/carried by 6" argument comes into play when you are being targeted by a real firearm or what appears to most reasonable people to be a firearm. I have successfully refrained from shooting at the several people who have scoped me with their rifle scopes but did have my safety off once(some trespassing jerk continued to scope me with his rifle scope from about 35 yards even after I made my humanness clearly known by sight and sound while hunting on my land). What you would do and what someone else would do may be two quite different things. I treasure my life enough not to give someone else a fairly good reason to do me harm.

A reflection off a single lens does not always mean someone is aiming a rifle at you.

Keep it up.
I have a 10/22 stock set up the same way. I learned to use a spotting scope like that from a game warden 35 or so years ago. Works great.

Thanks for the feedback, ladies and gentlemen. Heading for the cabin - yotes and whitetail scouting on the agenda.

Wow, ingweewee, I owed you before, but now I REALLY owe you!

NO.

sneak up on guys varmint hunting,expect to get some thing pointed at you.

Get off your high horse judge fishhead. No I'm not joking. It's called self defense. It has nothing to do with hunting. If someone points a gun at me, I'm going to shoot back. I'm gunna identify whatever's pointed at me and if what looks like a gun is still pointed at me I'm going to defend myself. That rig looks like a gun and scope. I hunt in areas where cartels are sporting AK's and SKS's. You don't point guns, or [bleep] that look like guns, at people--thats in all safty gun classes.

uh yea...

No, shooting at something you BELIEVE to be a rifle that's pointed at you is NOT self defense. It's attempted murder, or murder if you connect.

If you even return fire at a rifle that's shot in your direction, that's still not automatic self defense. Could very well be the hunter is firing at a critter in front of or behind you and just hasn't seen you. Again, if you return fire that would be attempted murder or murder on YOUR part.


Danged sure glad you don't hunt anywhere near me.

Nothing to do with nothing but I sure would love to come across robo-deer one of these days whilst hunting and setup about 600yards out with turrets.

[/quote]

No, shooting at something you BELIEVE to be a rifle that's pointed at you is NOT self defense. It's attempted murder, or murder if you connect.


[/quote]

Are you serious???? Ok so someone points a gun at you that has no firing pin........ and you shoot them in self defence. You would put them in prison wouldnt you. Hear hear campfire members. Calhoun wants you to inspect the gun, make sure its real, and make sure it has the evil bullets in it before you can fire back in self defence. Ok liberal.

This is a gun? And you would "shoot back"? My question is, how the heck did this shoot AT you in the first place?

And if you shoot at this... how many birdwatchers have you shot at who have the huge lenses on their cameras?

"Honest judge, it was self defense! He pointed that shiny glass thing at me and I got so scared I wet my pants and HAD to shoot back!"

laffin... tough guy on the internet.

Allright buddy... Come to AZ and start whipping that around pointing it at hunters and the average AZ'n. There's a rifle stock there and its mounted like a scope-- dont be stupid -- its not a camera. Add some yardage and it looks like a rifle as the Warden in the story thought. Yea Im a tough guy on the internet. You showed your colors closet liberal.

Hopefully you're never on a self defense jury cause you'd put someone away for murder for defending themselves.

Next time when someone points what you believe is a gun at you, dont shoot back. Don't shoot back until the gun shoots at you.

Are you serious???? Ok so someone points a gun at you that has no firing pin........ and you shoot them in self defence. You would put them in prison wouldnt you. Hear hear campfire members. Calhoun wants you to inspect the gun, make sure its real, and make sure it has the evil bullets in it before you can fire back in self defence. Ok liberal. [/quote]

Your reading comprehension suck...he didn't point a gun at him.

Like I said before, enjoy your time in prision. Well, that is AFTER school gets out. Letting kids out of school for lunch isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Your reading comprehension suck...he didn't point a gun at him.
[/quote]

... it was a hypothetical. Re-read

Yo Tzone...


The moral of the story is don't point stuff that looks like a gun (like a spotting scope mounted on a rifle stock) at people, as people will shoot back at you if they perceive they are threatened.

Plenty of rifles out there with Hubble-Esq optics, and it would be way easy to confuse the two.

Well, TZONE maybe after school you and your liberal friends can sit on a jury and put some self-defending citizens in prison. Like I said, come to AZ and point that rig at some people and see what happens... Man up. Share your story on the campfire about what happend when you did it.

"Hopefully you're never on a self defense jury cause you'd put someone away for murder for defending themselves."

ALL RISE. The 24 Hour Campfire Kangaroo Court is now in session. The Honorable Judge High Horse Fish Head presiding.

Judge High Horse Fish Head's advice to the the Jury.

"shooting at something you BELIEVE to be a rifle that's pointed at you is NOT self defense. It's attempted murder, or murder if you connect."

The accused's testimony

"Honest judge, it was self defense! He pointed that shiny glass thing at me and I got so scared I wet my pants and HAD to shoot back"

The prosecution's evidence:



Jury's decision: Guilty as charged.

Judge High Horse Fish Head's sentence: "Bailiff, whack his Pee-Pee and then bish slap him"





I don't think the "shoot first, answer questions later" idea is going to work in court.

Still trying to figure out how people are going to "shoot back" at somebody with a spotting scope and stock? Is there a 10megawatt laser firing through that scope? Sure as heck ain't no bullets coming your way. What you're really saying is that there are tens of thousands of hunters who will blow you away if you point a rifle in their direction?

No. 100% no. Anybody who has ever hunted public land in Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska or any other state knows better than that. Stupid crap happens all the time every year, and the wisdom and restraint of the average hunter is what keeps us all safe.

What if they are pointing a spotting scope at you from a prone position? Can you really tell the difference from hundreds of yards away that it's mounted on a stand versus a rifle? What about a scope mounted on a monopod or sticks - fairly common, and from head on would look VERY similar to a rifle sitting on a monopod.

I've been hunting for 35 years and have had several dozen hunters THAT I KNOW OF scope me. Probably hundreds more that I never knew about. I've had rifles fired in my direction. I've had to take cover. I've had to retreat. I've walked away from hunting parties because one or more people were dangerous enough that I wouldn't hunt near them. I've been peppered with shotgun pellets from a distance multiple times, even by idiots who could see me downrange.

But never, ever, have I been tempted to fire first - much less fire in response to a perceived threat. And I never will unless I know for 100% that somebody is intentionally trying to kill ME - not just firing at me because they think I'm a deer or coyote.

I might end up dead or wounded for my inaction, but I sure as heck ain't going to be responsible for putting some teenager or newborn baby's father into a grave because I'm too paranoid or jack full of myself to take cover and evaluate a situation or to retreat.

The voice of reason and common sense, thank you.

Gay post dude.

Sac up...set up that rig, point it at people and see what happens. All you need is one jurer to see that the rig looks like a gun and the shooter was in fear of his life.

The origonal question was if he should discontinue the use of the rig. Yes IMO, be it criminal or not... you may get shot pointing that rig around. A warden already thought it was a real gun.

The court is still in session. Judge High Horse Fish Head presiding.

Oakster was shot by PhilinAz and survived.

Oakster's testimony:

"If your going to be walking through land that people are hunting, your likely to get scoped out. I was just watching a creek bed, and I saw motion in the brush, I put the scope on it. Standard hunting practice."

PhilinAZ's testimony:

I'm gunna identify whatever's pointed at me and if what looks like a gun is still pointed at me I'm going to defend myself. So I shot the [bleep].

Judge High Horse Fish Head's finding's.

Your both Dumbphucks that need to stay out of the woods.

Judge High Horse Fish Head's sentence:

"Bailiff, whack both their Pee-Pee's and double bish slap em."

No

Thanks Terry. I knew you'd think that about my post.

And he didn't shoot either. I have spent considerable time in an environment where people were actively trying to kill me and I them. I am still not going to fire on a glass flash or seeing somebody scope me. I will try to join up with them and point out my displeasure however, and if it turned out to be a rig like the OP showed would probably admire it.

Go back to the mall and play mall ninja, you do not impress me in the least.

No...no reason or common sense TLEE. I thought as a former LEO you would understand better.

Using his own arugment he said it's hard to tell what is pointed at him. My point exactly! It's hard to tell the spotting scope mounted on a rifle stock with a subject holding as if it were a rifle -- it is not a real gun.

Consiquently.... when something that looks like a real gun is pointed at another human -- you encourage them to defend themselves. Follow? So... back to the origonal assertion....If someone felt in fear for their life, you might get shot pointing that rig at someone. Follow? Not a good idea to point something that looks like a rifle at someone. A warden already thought it was a gun.

Sometime retreat is not possible and in certain areas of this country such as AZ, you can't trust anyone behind what you see is a rifle. I'd rather be judged by 12 than be dead or crippled for the rest of my life.

PhilinAZ,

I'm trying to use a little humor to maybe, just maybe get you see a different side of things. At least we're only talking about it on the internet instead of reading about a real hunting accident. Step back and think about what everybody's saying. It's better to change your thoughts now than after committing an avoidable and unforgiveable accident and then having to live with the consequences for the rest of your life.

This post says it all as far as I'm concerned. BTW, good job Calhoun.

You must live around a bunch of retards to have to endure being scoped by other hunters. Holy crap. I hope you just made that up to try to prove a point. They probably had a round in the chamber too. What a disgrace to the hunting community and shooters in general.

Scope me, and you better be willing to have lead flying your way. Plain and simple..

Oracle my ass. You point a squirt gun at somebody, they have the right to shoot you if they perceive a threat. Only a dumbass would point a squirt gun at somebody, and only a dumbass would point something that could be mistaken as a weapon at somebody in the field. As I said before, cut it down, paint it orange, and you are good to go.

Stick with posting cat pictures.

Here's a good thread from somebody who's lived through more hunting and stupid hunting incidents than almost any of us will ever encounter.

Ethics is a big issue in his thread. Might be worthwhile to think about where you'd fall in anybody's list if they thought you'd shoot somebody for scoping you.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4347748/1


And, no, I didn't make up the fact about being scoped dozens of times. It's happened, and there are lots of idiots out there who don't see anything wrong with it. Might be worthwhile to think about the fact that it is NOT a crime to point a rifle and scope somebody. Definitely not in this state at least. Would love to see the regs of any state where it is illegal.

Ohh there you go with the name calling........

I'll stoop to your level and say I bet you root for officers to go to prison when they shoot a suspect with a weapon that looked like a real gun too. Sad...very sad. I thought you had a better understanding of the law and common sense.

Mall ninja

PhilinAZ

What does this quote mean?

"Sac up...set up that rig, point it at people and see what happens. All you need is one jurer to see that the rig looks like a gun and the shooter was in fear of his life."

People that are this afraid in the woods need to stay home as they obviously have never been fired on in earnest. It ain't fun and I think that folks that spot with their scopes need a good azz whipping for stupidity. The rig the OP used may resemble a rifle but I have also seen a bunch of similar camera mounts in use over the years. Mishaps are mishaps but fer crying out loud get some common sense. Some of you sound like the loonies that predict "blood in the streets" every time a new jurisdiction passes shall issue laws.

You will no doubt ever see the guy that shoots at you if he is trying to kill you.

Calvin, if a water pistol makes you pee your pants you need medical intervention.

All this juvenile posturing is enough to gag a maggot, some of you need to get a life.

I rarely call names, but I will call a spade a spade when I see one.

Your "mall ninja" talk is the only posturing I've seen on this thread. You don't have a clue.

The reality is that you only point a weapon at something you want to kill. That is a rule to live by, and people will react when having a weapon pointed at them, to preserve their own life. Only a dumbass would point something they KNOW could be mistaken as a weapon at another human being.

All I know is what dad told me, 'Being right don't help much if your dead because of it'

Calvin, think of a 4-12x scope. Fairly normal.

Now imagine you're downrange and see somebody pointing a rifle in your direction.

Are you REALLY going to kill him in cold blood? There's absolutely NO chance that he's not zoomed in on some critter to the left, right, high or low from you and doesn't even see you because he's zoomed in at 12x?

You also really think that in the time it takes for you to see him in your binocs, then for you to lower them, bring up your weapon, sight on him and fire.. that he won't have killed you if that was his purpose?

Murder 1, premeditated. Life in prison. Any prosecutor who's ever been in the field will have you being bubba's girlfriend for the rest of your life. Maybe get it reduced to negligent homicide. Of course you'll be broke from defending against the civil wrongful death lawsuits.

First thing I'm going to do before I "shoot back" is hit the dirt. Don't ask me how I know.

Only a dumbass could still think he was pointing a weapon.

Right don't mean much if you're dead. Seems to me the world is full of dumb [bleep], can't see helping them to reach the pinnacle of the dumbphucktitude.

I'm not saying pointing the scope at the warden was right.

But to shoot first and ask questions about it later, especially at a person, ranks high on the list of dumbphucktitude

I ain't saying it was wrong, but pointing something that looks like a rifle from a distance don't help you even if right, as acknowledged by your last sentence.

Agreed.

deleted due to late found restraint

Chicken

nothing against the law about pointing a scope ata person - it does look like a weapon though- bet it works great-
[bleep]'m or he would have took it away - no laws broken!
anything other than hunting you might have got shot though - lol

To me its a good thing you had that spotting outfit. Let you know there was someone sneaking around in the woods and to not shoot in that direction.

In every predator hunting video on my shelf has the shooter sitting on his stand with his gun on his shooting sticks, stock resting near his shoulder. Motion kills predator stands. There guns are only moved a few inches to be in shooting position. They do not use binoculars etc.

After thinking about it, I will wait longer for a positive ID before beginning to line up. I never would shoot at motion, and never stated that I would.

I am man enough to admit when I am in error.

I would ask that you leave me out of your profanity filled 'better than thou' tirades in the future. I do not need to resort to name calling to prove my point. I also prefer to keep my name away from posts like that. I think that they are in poor taste. Doesnt take a big man to learn cuss words. Lots of people can find time to use them when they are drinking instead of working, or bossing their wives around.

I assure you that I try to be a safe hunter. I try to pass on safe hunting techniques to my son and the youth that I introduce to hunting. I can also assure you that I have formed a pretty solid opinion of ' Your Honor ', and it isnt really much I need to share.

Go on with your tirades, and your arguments, but leave me out of them.

+1

They were doing their job, just handled this particular situation poorly IMHO. There job is to make sure game laws are being followed, our job is to follow the law and hunt in a safe manner. Scoping with a spotting scope is safe and not gonna be responsible for a negligent discharge. Spotting with the scope on a loaded rifle on the other hand is plain ignorant. I have a pair of binoculars or a monocular to verify I am in fact shooting at an animal. When predator hunting I set up in a blind or covered position with a know field of fire and limited access with the rifle at the ready. As mentioned above movement is your enemy when dealing with predators, but I still make sure of my target before bringing the rifle to bear. All of this is simply common sense, it is also why we had "free fire zones" in RSVN, you knew if they weren't yours they were enemy.

My sincerest and honest apoligies to you for me calling you out in my posts.

I'm stating this publicly for everyone to see.

Your last post was a good one. Everybody makes mistakes and as long as a man sees the errs of his ways that's OK by me.

Good hunting to you,

fish head

This thread is very telling.

Most likely no one on here would have an issue being looked at through a spotting scope - heck, most of you have looked at folks through spotting scopes before and never thought twice about it.

Now, we mount that spotting scope in an old rifle stock-which is nothing more than a hunk of firewood when you get right down to it-and suddenly if we look at someone through that same spotting scope, we've done something worth being shot over.

Now why is this? Because that hunk of firewood makes it appear to be a rifle. But it isn't a rifle. There is no possible way on God's green earth that a spotting scope stuck in a rifle stock is ever going to fire a bullet and kill someone. It's no different than a spotting scope mounted on a tripod. The difference is that we percieve it to be some sort of threat.

But here's the fascinating thing-through this entire thread,we know that we're dealing with a spotting scope here. We know it's not a rifle. Yet people are still saying they would shoot someone if they pointed such a contraption at them. Folks that wouldn't blink if they were being looked at by a spotting scope on a tripod would suddenly kill a person simply because said spotting scope was stuck in a gun stock.

Brian.

That's another one I don't understand. What if it was another hunter? Should he also make his presence known? Ain't hunters supposed to sneak around the woods?

Brian, You have to go on the best information you have in order to make quick decisions in what you may consider to be a life-theatening situation. It does not have to be a rifle in order for you to think it is a rifle. Try pulling out a toy pistol and pointing it at a cop at a traffic stop and see what happens. Didn't Dillenger break out of jail once with a bar of soap carved to look like a pistol? How many quicky-marts have been robbed by some dude with nothing more than his hand placed in his pocket to look like a pistol? Does the law treat that dude any different than it would if he really had had a pistol? (Perhaps some of you legal eagles can answer that last question.) I wonder what type of reaction you would get if you were to take a stock-mounted scope to a fence near an airport runway and use it to look at landing planes. Take a book backpack to that same airport, put it down in the lobby, and walk away. I dare say it will cause a stir even though it is quite harmless. We often must act on what things appear to be rather than what they really are.

WCB,MY opinion was and is that the OP was quite OK to do what he did. What my comment was directed at are those who actually DO use the 'scope sights on their rifle to ID their targets. That is NOT responsible gun handling in any way shape or form."sneaking" through the woods, insisting that hunter orange would rectify the situation etc is pure horsecrap. Hunters sneak, and as for the colors-well colorblind guys couldn't tell you the difference. Crappy way to lay the responsibility off onto someone else when it is the 100% responsibility of the gunner to be safe in his/her actions. A telescope mounted on a riflestock for ease of use is completely alright. Shooting at someone for pointing anything while in the woods?? Nope. Returning fire otoh is a horse of a different color.

Evil, I am not too trigger happy and have managed to hold fire when put in very real danger by people scoping me with sights on very real rifles. I do wonder, however, about the "returning fire" bit. You can return fire if they didn't get you on the first shot. Do you want to bet your life on their poor marksmanship?

I didn't say to DO IT, I merely class it as a response that has more geuine grounds than the first mentioned. What HAS frosted me is when some guy didn't check his background before his shot and a slug smacked a nearby tree when he missed his deer. I did NOT shoot back but he learned that he had an extremely questionable parentage among other things. That is why I rarely hunt the southern zone here in NY.

That frosts me also. I quit deer hunting in one area after hearing people brag about all the "sound shots" they took at "deer" on wildlife management area hunt. Having bullets go over your head or having buckshot rattle through the bushes near you are not pleasant experiences.
I feel the main point to be made is that the scope is fine (I have and use one just about like it) but that it should not be used in such a way that might give someone the false impression that you are aiming a rifle at them.

Safety orange?

I like to sneak around as much to keep my whereabouts unknown to other hunters as the critters.

+1 It is telling when hunters will lay blame on someone for not being dressed as a traffic cone so they won't accidentally shoot someone.

Here's the one issue that still bothers me about this thread. The percieved threat that your life is in imminent danger while hunting. There's plenty of other circumstances where if someone is pointing a weapon at you, or what you believe is a weapon, in a hostile enviroment, that shooting first is justified. That one's easy enough.

The key is a hostile enviroment. A sitution where a reasonable person would percieve that their life is in imminent danger. We're talking about hunting situations. I don't consider that a hostile enviroment. I've never felt the need to fear murderers in the woods. Caution and worrys about hunters with poor judgement and poor gun handling is different story.

Isn't there any comradery amongst hunter's left?

Do you percieve fellow hunters as muderers and a real threat to your life?

Is there any tolorence for ingnorance or poor gun handling?

Think about all the examples of dumbphuckitude that you see at a public shooting range. We've all seen that. Unfortunately it carrys over to the field and hunting situations.

The blanket statement that someone will shoot another human being, in a hunting scenario, is IMO flat out wrong. There at least has to be qualifying and extreme extenuating circumstances to justify pulling the trigger and taking someone's life. It should be an absolute last resort in only the most unusual of circumstances rather than a knee jerk reaction. Even then you're probably going to kill an innocent person. I couldn't do it unless somebody shot at me first. I'm willing to gamble on the infinitesimal odds that I'm going to get shot vs the extreme odds that I'm going to prison for shooting first.

My first reation to somebody pointing anything at me would be to wave my hat and let them know I'm there.

There is one circumstance that greatly changes the hunting scenario and that's hunting in Arizona. PhilinAZ, do hear me on this one? Hunting near the US/Mex border poses a entirely different threat with the current issues there. The way things are now you're just putting yourself in harm's way. Personally, I wouldn't want to hunt or venture anywhere near the border. It shouldn't be like that, but it is.

Am I'm making any sense at all to those of you that have made the blanket statement that you're going to shoot somebody for pointing something at you?

It's the blind ingorance of poorly educated hunters and knee jerk reations of others that would justify far greater controls and requirements for hunter education and gun safety than currently exist. Do any of us really want that?

I'm absolutely amazed at some of the attitudes of the "knowlegeable" folks here on the fire.

Were supposed to be the good guys setting the right examples.

My life has been in grave danger from other hunters in a hunting situation. I have been scoped with a loaded high-power rifle at close range by someone who positively had to know I was a human. Blaze orange, waving arms, and shouts left little doubt that someone 35 yards away was not a deer yet the scoping continued. I have a friend who is paralysed from a load of buckshot fired at him from about the same distance. I got blasted at about 50 yards with a heavy load of dusk shot by someone in a flooded wildlife management field shooting a cripple that was between him and me. A local man was killed by a hunter several years ago while walking through his field during deer season. A guest on my private heavily-posted hunting land was getting ready to aim his rifle at the source of noise and motion he detected in the woods near his stand when three trespassers wearing full camo and carrying what looked like AR-style rifles sneaked out of the brush. There were a few very tense moments until the three were persuaded to lay down their arms and step away from them. The three turned out to be friends of some local kid and the guns were airsoft, but my friend had very legitimate reasons to fear for his safety until the real facts were known. No hostility caused any of these incidents yet they occurred.

We are, indeed, supposed to be the good guys who set a good example. In this case the good example would have been to use the perfectly legal equipment in such a way that no misunderstanding could lead to an unfortunate event.

Notropis,

We're in agreement on the safety issues. There's a big difference between an accident and someone intentionally shooting another human being. You didn't elaborate on the stories as to whether they were extremely unfortunate accidents or a willful acts of violence. Please comment on this.

The guy that kept scoping you would make me very nervous. That's one situation that'd be a tough call. Obviously you made the right decision. Nobody was shot.

"We are, indeed, supposed to be the good guys who set a good example. In this case the good example would have been to use the perfectly legal equipment in such a way that no misunderstanding could lead to an unfortunate event."

As far as the whole spotting scope on a rifle stock issue goes there's two simple solutions. Make it look less rifle like and if someone sees you glassing them hold it up sideways so they can see what it is.

Hunters don't need to shoot fellow hunters. I'm trying my best to convey that message.

Imminent danger is imminent danger period. Our hunting/scouting areas are anothers drug route, gun route, felony hide... etc... to assume every rifle trained on you is some careless/stupid hunter is to be a fool.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with a Spotting Scope but one time years ago I was in a tree stand deer hunting in the Osceola National Forest about a mile or two north of Ocean Pond and some ashhole started shooting into a barrow pit filled with water and bullets were ricocheting off the water flying all around me. talk about scary as hell. It was absolutely terrifying!!!! It taught me a real lesson on knowing your background before you shoot. I never want to be in that position again nor do I wish anyone else be in that position either.

It was definitely good or bad lesson in firearm saftey spotting scope or no spotting scope.

If you want to selectively quote me you should have quoted this:

"Do you percieve fellow hunters as muderers and a real threat to your life?"

And this.

"There is one circumstance that greatly changes the hunting scenario and that's hunting in Arizona. PhilinAZ, do hear me on this one? Hunting near the US/Mex border poses a entirely different threat with the current issues there. The way things are now you're just putting yourself in harm's way. Personally, I wouldn't want to hunt or venture anywhere near the border. It shouldn't be like that, but it is."

And this.

"There at least has to be qualifying and extreme extenuating circumstances to justify pulling the trigger and taking someone's life."

And this.

"Am I'm making any sense at all to those of you that have made the blanket statement that you're going to shoot somebody for pointing something at you?"





Can't you see my point on all this?

"Hunters don't need to shoot fellow hunters. I'm trying my best to convey that message."

Unfortunate accidents as opposed to willful acts of violence? Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. I suppose they should be called easily preventable mistakes. The hunters are out there to blow something away and often get caught up in that mindset to the point that they don't exercise proper caution before they pull the trigger. They often see what their expectations want them to see. I don't think that is an accident because they willfully pulled the trigger on something they thought they wanted to shoot and I don't think they went into the woods for the purpose of shooting a human. We should do what we can to make those easily preventable mistakes more easily preventable. Our very lives may depend on doing so.

The fellow tracking me with the rifle still gives me the creeps 35 years later.

I am also reminded of a fellow with whom I hunted once, and only once, who came back to camp laughing about a fellow hunter he was watching through his scope who passed up a shot at a deer that was standing in front of someone's truck parked on the road. He sa1d he would have taken the shot if he had been that fellow.

Maybe this is a good time to throw out how hunting is one of the safest sports/hobbies there are. Far safer than boating, far safer than almost anything.

This despite the fact that there are hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people wandering the farmlands and woodlands in November with high power firearms. Many with little to no experience with the handling of firearms except for a few hours in a hunter safety class.

And people live. And the anti's have a very hard time finding incidents to use against us that put us in a bad light.

It's incumbent upon all of us to practice AND preach safety, and to retreat from a dangerous situation rather than escalate it.

Stay safe.

As Calhoun says.. To take the life of a teenager or anyone would be a burden I would hate to carry for the rest of my life
FOR GODS SAKE - DO NOT SHOOT BACK. Stupidity is not a crime so please do not let it become a death sentence. I have had bullets come near me and have not even considered "Returning Fire" Right or wrong I do not want continue the stupidity.
As to the spotting scope on a gun stock...... If it is percieved as a threat - CHANGE IT !!!! While the concept is sound and very functional why would you want to place yourself in the same situation again. The warden may have run into idiots before and this is a sore point with him. My reading of your post I understand was a reasonable response to someone on his high horse but sometimes a little understanding can go a long way.
Right or Wrong - legal or Illegal the taking of a persons life would be as bad as it could get.
Many years ago as a volunteer fireman called out to a road accident involving a car and motorbike, The guy on the motorbike said 'I was in the right', just before he died

A Friend DOWN UNDER

Bravo 27