I've heard that the United States of America started out as a pretty good idea, and progressed along for a while strong and true to it's ideals and even some common sense too.

Now there seems little hope for anything to take place that resembles common sense.

So, where was the turning point?

Hindsight is suppossed to be 20/20, let's see if any of us agree on where the wrong turns started.

The 70's, with the Hippie generation.....that IMHO was the turning point.

I think the hippie thing might be one of the earlier results of the turn...

Lawyers...............

& welfare.........

and becoming the World's Police Force.................

"If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve."

I wonder if WWII wasn't the last of the proud moments, with an incredible energy directed at a real enemy with nearly universal pride. The good times ran from there and the lack of a universal comeupance, ala the Depression to bring folks back to what matters seems to me to be a turning point.

Everybody that lived through the Depression took something from the experience, IMO, that was similar.

Viet Nam provided divisiveness, showing the huge gap in individuals' perceptions of exactly the same events. Korea provided neither patriotism nor great division and showed the mindset of the war-jaded Americans.

Ike's America was the good times without a tab to pay for quite a while and there is nothing worse than free time to corrupt a society.

But I could be wrong...
art

And it is the nature of societies to follow the path we are on. We are just doing it in record time.



We have forgotten why this country was founded, and what makes it great.



Also, diversity is no strength. Strength comes from unity.

IMO it all started downhill when single parent homes became the norm....

Nawww.....it was when those parents(married or otherwise) didn't incorporate a shred of discipline.

Some folks couldn't raise chickens.................

Very true, though I believe two folks could raise chickens better in most cases.... In my experience kids with strong father figures will fair much better on the average, as kids and as adults.

I don't think we've gone wrong, America has just become more powerful than our founding fathers could have ever imagined.

The world has changed and we have changed with it; or more correctly, America has changed the world.

I'd not dispute the ideal.



On the other hand,I often see kids talk to their folks and others in a manner that would warrant their seeing a Karate Movie and it would Star me,kicking their ass.



Kids are astute creatures and have a firm grip on where boundaries lie. Some parents instill no boundaries and routinely reap those "rewards".



That doesn't help Society..................

Well - I would say it went wrong when we started to care too much about offending others and disciplining children. When you care more about hurting feelings at the expense of doing right/ giving people the moral compass or the tools to be a productive member of society - then you have what we have today.

Less thought should be about that childs feelings today than the outcome of there life over the next 30 years.

Plus we have let the psychiologists tell us what is good and ok rather than common sense. My grandfather's generation (WWII) didn't give a damn what some guy in a bad tie said bout how they showld do things - they just sucked it up and DEALT WITH IT!

JMHO

Anyone see that Claritin commercial with that little dog, Baxter, on it? That's a symptom of the problem right there.

See how the little SOB pulls at the leash and the owner just puts up with it? Some people even get those leashes like a 50 foot tape measure so the dog can pull and tug at them from a longer distance. They don't want to be "mean" and just teach the dog to walk on a leash in a mannerly way.

People like that are parents too. They have the kids but don't define any clear boundaries, don't teach them to respect boundaries, and when the kids exceed the filmy boundaries they do put up they just get one of those 50 foot leashes to make the problem occur farther away.

We're now suffering the effects of the second generation of "Baxters". I really want to punt that dog when I see that commercial.

Your complaints and criticisms are age-old. Try looking at history over a longer span than mere decades.

I MUCH subscribe to the Theorum outlined nicely in Denis Leary's stand up,"No Cure For Cancer".

He touched upon the matter 100% without tact and nailed the issue squarely,with suggestion of his pending book: "Shut The [bleep] Up!" by Dr.Denis Leary.

Seldom are things soooooo succinct..................

Are we talking about the USA as a country or the people/society in it?

Just a question.

How can you possibly separate the two?

When Lincoln "saved" the union. That is when the Constitution and Bill of Rights started getting flushed!!

Well there are things this country does collectivly that I agree with/ see as being uniquely American - yet there are people in this country that I do not, and will not agree with and generaly do not find at all in the general meaning of "being an American"



I myself can not and will not ever agree with those in our society who are pro-abortion, anti religion, anti-gun, and anti- family. Not saying I can't be their neighbor and will treat them with respect - just can not agree with them. And that is a difference I have found to be out there - those of us on the right seem to be more respectful of disenting positions- we are not trying to say you HAVE to pray in school - just alow those that want to to be able to - yet those that just can not let it be say NO you absolutly can not as it may offend my 3 yr old.



I do not agree with those who say marriage can be between 2 men or 2 women, say we can not discipline our kids, say a simple prayer before a football game is infringing on their rights not to, or people who say that as Americans we need to be answerable to other countries as to our national defense.





I swell up with great pride when I see this country reach its hands out to those in need. I can not think of one instance where this country has said no to another in dealing with a natural or man made disaster. We help everbody- floods in China, famine in USSR (even tho we were enemys) these things make me proud of our Country - Ironicaly displaying those Judeo-Christian beliefs (do unto others...) that so many inside this country are trying to say should not be part of how we do business.



What I see is a real (and this is so cliche) culture war going on in this country - finally coming to a head. I see the changes in the schools as I graduated HS in 95 and then go back to those schools in just a 10 yr span to see the differences in attitude from the students/teachers and the way it is sliding farther and farther into the things I do not believe in.



I joined the military late in life - I was 25 - I had life expirence before that and to see the attitudes of new recruits coming in - fresh out of HS all believing that the govt, military, and the world OWES something to them just because the (OMG) had to do things they do not like or weren't born into the life of someone like Paris Hilton, makes me sick.



They have no concept of responsability, world affairs or world history (old adage those that don't learn from it...) I had an Army e-5 (person of responsability- supposed to mold young soldiers and teach them) not know what the significance of Dunkirk was, she also had no idea that Supreme court justices were appointed for life, we fought a war in 1812, no idea the Berlin Airlift ever occured. I am not saying a person has to be the walking History channel but she only saw America -up to this point- as the America shown to her by people who thought America has only done wrong - Korea, Vietnam, bay of pigs, that liberal bs spewed to her in schools.



If my beliefs make me some out of touch- "evil" right winger then so be it - these are beliefs based on my own observances and WHAT makes sense to ME.



My parents were never politicaly active or even active in anything other than

getting us to soccer, hunting, and so forth. Every political leaning and though I have comes from an un-influenced look at life. I made my decisions based on what I see and feel.



Just my expirence and way I think, as others have said "... your mileage may vary..."

i'm an outsider here so i'm hoping i don't get flamed. america has done nothing wrong. the problems mentioned are the problems every where.
America started as a true democracy and is one of the greatest democracies the world has seen. watergate should have been its proudest moment because it proved NO ONE is above the law. the world is changing so rapidly it must seem like there are wolves at the door. but when i see maybe 48 hours of news devoted to a poor american who gets beheaded, and day after day coverage of crimes done in a U.S. military prison, i often wonder what the agenda of the "free" press is. just my thoughts.

I think we are mostly on the same page so far, I was thinking that the beginning of the decline came around 1920, when the women were saddled with the responsibilty of voting. I also wonder what the economy would be like if most of the women were still committing their time to homemaking.

and child rearing..

I would say when people became afraid of saying what is right and wrong, for fear of being called judgemental. When these [bleep] pro choice [bleep] want to piss and moan about killing bambi, but don't blink an eye about killing babies. When we started operating on feelings and not thoughts. Steve

Our Society is becoming sooooo soft,that most have lost touch with reality.

One cain't put a Bandaid on everything and poopoo his way through life. My goal is to prepare my children for the worst,as everything shy of that will be a breeze. Meaning,I aim for them to squarely pull their own weight in this Life and do for themselves. Sadly,that is a somewhat novel approach in today's World,as per my observations.

The World is an unkind place,but too many have become accustomed to being coddled and want handouts provided by the minority who foot the bill(do the work). When you have more shirkers,than providers,things come unhinged quickly.

It seems all want a free lunch and to reside in a World that simply doesn't(can't) exist.

Some need a good shot betwixt the blinkers,to "see the light" and it's a shame that more aren't accomodated.............

A casual perusal of the history of the Mass Bay Colony, the formation of New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, the Virginia Constitution, etc., shows that our forefathers were first and foremost, God fearing, and specifically mostly Protestant.

The continuing influence of religion is shown in the first Great Awakening that made the Revolution possible by breaking down the petty bickers of the different sects, the Second Great Awakening that was part of the impetus that destroyed slavery, and then the 1900's holiness revival that resulted in American missionaries all around the world and prohibition here at home.

So I contend that the heart and soul of the culture of America in here golden years was a healthy church. The Puritan work ethic, respect for parents and elders, Godly shame and outrage over sexual immorality, honesty in business, justice in government, etc.

I maintain that our down fall began in the US seminaries back at the turn of the last century when the ministers studied German Higher Criticism, came to reject holy writ, and started to preach sentimental hoo ha. Then the folks came to regard the ministry with at best a polite patronizing attitude or outright mockery and rejection. We lost the fear of God as a people when we lost respect for his word. There has always been a hardened unbelieving secular section of America, but the heart and soul of all that was good came from the Church.

The clergy at the time of the Revolution was held in high regard, they preached up the fight, laid a philosophical ground work for the righteousness of it all and urged the people on from the strongest motivation possible, an enlightened conscience. They were considered the Black Column. The Brits desecrated Puritan Churches of Boston and said that the revolt would never be put down until they had rooted out "that damn Puritan spirit."

So in any case my point is this- our goodness came from our faith. That is my position.

And- I can stack up quotes from the founding fathers to support my position that would fill a library. George Washington's farewell comes to mind, Linconln's second inaugural, on and on.

To me the turning point was "tune in, turn on, freak out." The notion drugs are ok and don't hurt anyone. Billions of dollars later and many thousand dead, can we not see the lie? That coupled with we are more educated and more able to see the lies put before us by the media and those we elect.

I contend,that if you wanna see a GREAT fight,pit two men of differing Religous beliefs in the ring.

Funny thing is,most Religions opine that violence is to be avoided. Few can practice what they preach and thus the catalyst for History's GREATEST bloodbaths.

'Tis us Heathens,who oughtta be running things,so as to keep things neutral...................(grin)

IMHO, I would say around the late 50's, early 60's. That"s when we really began to allow liberal thinking into our culture and govt.We started to kick God out of our society and it all began to slide down the slippery slope. If a society kicks God out, it better do so expecting Him to kick back someday.
Dave in WV, Dixie Freedom, and teal325 all made great points so I won't use the space to repeat what they said, just that I agree.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

I trace it back to the post WWII Dr. Spock fetish many had with raising chilluns in a namby-pamby fashion. Let's blame him for succeeding generations, used to having someone make it all well and quick, for them. Like you said, the world's a nasty place and someone has to deal with the nastiness, rather than whine for someone else to come deal with it for them.

I think a lot of negative trends fed off each other and gathered strength in the 60s, fed by the media hysteria over Watergate and the chance to 86 the hated Nixon, and the rise to power of the "soft sciences"---with a study to explain why everything Judeo/Euro/American society had believed for 3000 years was racist, sexist, homophobic, discriminatory and hazardous to the self esteem of some person or species. And then society actually began to respond and act on this academic agenda and say, "Well this Birkenstock wearing socialist says I shouldn"t________ (fill in the blank) any more so I guess I better quit, and I better make everybody else quits too." Liberal judges decided these new found truths had actually been hiding in the Constitution all along (who knew?) and made them law, with the blessing of the learned media. And since then it's just been rolling downhill.

The cover up of the Kennedy assasination,followed closely by the manipulating of the Vietnam war by the Gov't and the news media.That started us on a slide and I'm thinking most of the events that occured after that are symptoms of a society in moral decline not root causes.
The obstacle to regaining our moral compass is the news media.It thrives on confrontation so there will always be a voice to disagree with anything,no matter how fundamentally right the original proposition is.
The Kennedy cover up showed the politicians that they could get by with any lie they want to tell.Vietnam showed the TV news guys that they could actually make policy rather than advocate or report it.
It's not apt to change soon.

Most of our social problems are rooted in FDR's "New Deal" (1933) and "Second New Deal" (1935).

No matter how good the intentions or grand the scheme, public welfare and work programs have been bastardized into systems whereas an ever-growing segment of our population contributes nothing to themselves or society.

To these people being an American means they are guaranteed a certain station in life and never have to lift a finger to obtain it. They are owed housing, food, healthcare, and education, and they don't even have to show up to collect. If we choose not to pay them off, their resentment and bitterness fuels crime and hate.

It's all about getting something for nothing.

I noticed during World War Two that kids -- especially boys -- whose fathers were away fighting the war were awfully hard for their mothers to handle. As some of the fathers came home again, many of them had had their fill of discipline and as a result, did not discipline their kids. And there were many broken families, with no fathers.

I think that a lot of the cultural and moral decay that has reached such depths today had at least some of its beginnings then and in those situational causes. In a simple phrase, the decline of discipline, especially the decline of self-discipline, as self-gratification has become both an obsession and a standard.

Rights have no responbilities except others' responsibility to guarantee us our rights to do, think, say, and have whatever we want.

Neighbors of ours came to Montana from "Back East" years ago, in part to raise their boys on a farm instead of in the city. One year, they raised chickens for the boys' chores. (With three to six university degrees between the two of 'em, and two professions, the parents didn't need the egg money.)

Everything they did had to be done "by the book," but they didn't have all the books. When the time came to kill and freeze the chickens, they'd heard that pithing the chickens made 'em easier to pluck. But they had no clue how. They also had no clue how to kill and dress the chickens. A brochure from somewhere probably explained pithing, I think, but they found no scholarly documentary how-to guide to the rest of the procedure.)

"Oh, Hell. Just chop their heads off and yank their guts out" -- a neignboring ranch mama's advice when they asked her how to prepare 'em for the freezer -- was too crude to consider.

So they cut off the wings and legs and threw the rest away.

I also think that part of the change has been peoples reluctance to think for themselves. I think that some people have found out that if they don't think for themself then when it goes down the crapper they can point the finger at others. Well "they" told me it was ok to do it this way. I think this is where we get into the peer preasure problems.

Just another log on the fire burning the classic American way of life to the ground.

As I stated earlier, I believe it started with Lincoln and the war. Then the transition from a mostly agrarian society to a work for wages one with no real roots to the land was the fell swoop. Now with ALL the "liberalism" (see socialism) and PC BS it is just accwlerating to where we are realy noticing. Too late I do believe, much too late, unless we as a society have a real epiphany soon.

T Lee

I am not sure where I read it but I am almost certain I remember this right- the US was 80% farm hands prior to WWII. Is that true?

The family farm was regulated and bought out to almost non existence. A local hog farmer explained how locally they just passed so many regulations that the little guy could never buy all the crap they said they had to have. Kinda how the Brits stole India, taxed the folks off their own land. How far reaching across America that is I don't know...

Yep - T lee that prob would be the "birthdate" if I had to give it one. I was drivin' down to Panama City, Fla once (me and 4 of my friends plus 'bout $600 worth of liquor! Lets just say it was a long week) and there was a guy on the radio talking bout the loss of personal freedoms. Described how he, as a libertarian, had a real problem with Lincoln as he believed Lincoln forced an extremely strong centralized govt down the throat of America- essentialy usurping (sp?) states rights, Was very interresting to a 20 year old looking foreward to a condo on the beach and a blender.

A hell of a lot further than you can imagine. Do a search for eminent domain, the new way to screw people out of their land, be ready for one heck of a wake up call.

We raised chickens when I was a kid. I knew how to kill, pluck, and clean chickens. Ater I got married we raised chickens, rabbits, and some lambs. I found some really good books called Raising *insert animal here* The Modern Way. They had some good tips on designing chicken houses or things to watch out for with sheep, etc.

I learned to raise trout commercially mostly from a California State Hatchery Manual. We did OK with that. We made our own incubators (commercial ones cost too much), spawned our own fish, and made some of our own demand feeders. You can learn a lot in books if you have some common sense to go with it.

I'm with JOG.

FDR's New Deal started us down the slippery slope of getting something for nothing.



Bill

I would also agree that is when we changed our thinking (average joe) with the change in govt and how it deals/thinks regarding the populace (sp?) being the Civil war. I must admit I never really though bout most of this a lot so I am in a little over my head!

All well and good Sir, if you can read and comprehend beyond a fourth grade level. That however is becoming the exception rather than the rule in todays society. We as a society have been "dumbed down" by the growing big brother "nanny state" form of government for so long that I doubt more tha 20% of Americans would be able to cope alone or in family units if the electricity went off for more than two or three days!


So used to the centralized government alluded to by brothr teal meeting 90% of their real or imagined needs they are helpless on their own. Not all, there is a core of folks like us that still can and will do for themselves, but we are becoming the anomaly.

Not only is the problem that people can't take care of themselves - they don't want to know!

They don't have the skills to do things for themselves and rather than learn them they spend $$$$ to go on an "extreem" vacation. Usually just walking over a hill and spending a night or two in a tent with a "survival guide" . All of this could/can be learned in the boy scouts.

Heck pick up a book or bother to ask "Hows that work?" rather than " What's a tire jack, why can't somebody help me raise my kids - its the schools job!!" You get the point.

My point exactly!



Growing up I thought milking the cows, slopping the hogs, feeding the chickens and cleaning out the hen house was "normal", not to mention chores, field work and going to school. ( No I did not walk miles in all kinds of weather uphill both ways) I did ride a horse or drove the "old" pickup when I got older. A week in the woods hunting was a welcome rest from REAL work and dint need no guide to do it!

I wonder if the proliferation of television helped us along too.

I would say that "helped" us get away from the family. Never a good think IMHO.

There's so many things that need changed, there's no way that a guy can point to just one thing and say "Here's where we screwed up".

Lee has a good point. The ACW left us with a federal goverment that could and would run ruffshod over the rights of states and localities to govern themselves.

Several others have pointed out other places that we did what seemed like a good idea at the time, but no-one bothered to think through the consequences.

FDR's socialist programs spring to mind as another.

I can't say exactly when liberal ideas became so powerful as to control the people's thinking. I doubt anyone else could either. But IMHO that is the ultimate root of the problems we face as a nation.
7mm

Once the people found they could vote themselves largess from the public treasury. We were warned about that BTW.

Stick,

While I do not disagree that religion has been used as an excuse for much violence, it pales when compared to the atrocities committed for secular causes.

During WWII, Hitler killed 13 million Germans because they were not the correct race. Yes, he may have loosely alluded to some Bible passages, but these were an afterthought. His well understood motivation desire was to create a master race.

Russia lost what, 20 million fighting WW II, which was clearly a war for gaining territory and resources.

Stalin killed millions for a most decidedly anti-religious reason.

Pol Pot killed 3.3 million Cambodians in his efforts to return to an agrarian society.

Then again, the extremist muslims are forcing their own genocide, and it is very early in the 21st century. While they are fighting with religion as an excuse, we are fighting to preserve civilization. I don't know how to categorize this war..............

Correction,friend Stick.Jesus said He came to bring division,not Peace.I don't get a chance to straighten out a heathen very often so I couldn't resist!
[I still can't make the smiley faces]

You know, reading through all of these "reasons," it came to me in two simple words:

Population density

150 years ago, folks had to figure it out or die. If their mistakes didn't kill them, they damn well had better learned from them. Of course, there were cities then too and within the cities things were going to hell, but....

Look, put too many rats or damn near ANY other animal in too close proximity and they're going to kill each other. If they don't, nature will step in. I don't know if it'll happen in our lifetime, but either animal nature (I don't call it human nature, because I don't think we have the corner on the market) OR nature itself will find a "cure."

I can't remember where, but I do recall reading it somewhere that humans are the only animal that kills others of its kind over ideas, or something to that effect. To me that statement, dismal as it sounds, kinda sums it up, for the past, the present, and most likely, the future. .......joken2

Not for the first time, I disagree with the general sentiments. True, many of the reasons given for the "decline" are problems, and I can bitch for hours about some of them, but I suspect that we will overcome them in the fullness of time.



We are the greatest and most powerful nation in history and will probably remain that way for a good while. I think our kids are smarter and far better educated than we give them credit for. In spite of our current misadventure in Iraq, I think our military is a finely honed weapon that, like any weapon, can be misused but is incredibly powerful and can be used as a force for good in the world. Any system as complex as ours will have many "squeaking wheels" but they will get grease and the system will endure. Religion, in any form, is not the reason for our greatness, capitalism is. The nearly certain knowledge that with hard work and sacrifice and just a bit of luck we and our children will have it better and easier than our parents did is a driving force.



America the Beautiful.















Of course, everything would be better sooner if we kill all the lawyers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hi, Steve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While we may be the greatest nation this world has ever seen and will be for a long time - that ain't saying much when you are being compared to France and Germany!!

I need to flesh out my point that FDR's "New Deal" is where things started to go wrong.

While an argument can be made that the Civil War is where our government started to go wrong, "We the people" are independent from the government. The Founding Fathers, by virtue of their character, rose above a much more repressive system to claim their freedom. The government cannot be fingered for our current predicament � we only have ourselves to blame.

The �New Deal� was a wondrous program designed to protect America�s citizenry and aid in the advancement of our infrastructure. �We the people� have bastardized the system with our demands of government and by our vote. We can�t fault a democratically elected government for acting as a mother bird feeding its clamoring chicks. Our government is only doing what we tell them to do.

I believe it is closest to what Muley Stalker and JOG have described it only a combination of those thngs. And to sum up JOG:
Once the people found they could vote themselves largess from the public treasury it was really downhill.
We were warned about that BTW.

Im sure no one will agree with me, but our moral decay began in the early 70's when the 60's hippies became teachers and started corrupting the minds of our kids. The environmental movement also is destroying jobs and opportunities in this country as they distort scientific data to support their environmental positions. Untruth in reporting by our liberal media, yada , yada, yada.

If you want to talk about corruption in the 70's, perhaps we should exam the Nixon administration.

I am proud that Nixon signed my honorable discharge. I am not proud he tryed to cover up watergate, but, you do realize he had nothing to do with watergate, his error of judgement was to cover it up. Furthermore, if you are relying on the movie on Nixon, I would remind you it was produced by the liberal movie media, the same wonderful folks who gave us Bambi.

Never saw the movie. Wouldn't go see one about Tricky Dick.

Where did we go wrong.....

Getting involved in international affairs that are none of our business.

The US was truly great internationally when we didn't intervene everywhere.

I say let's trade internationally, but let's limit it to just that....

If It Flies It Dies:
"Religion, in any form, is not the reason for our greatness, capitalism is. The nearly certain knowledge that with hard work and sacrifice and just a bit of luck we and our children will have it better and easier than our parents did is a driving force. "

I enjoy reading your posts because they provoke me to thought, and seeing how you come from the great and good state of Texas I tip my hat, but obviously I disagree with your post and I submit for your consideration:

George Washington at the battle of Brooklyn Heights, (i think I got that title correct) attributed his escape from the British with his entire army intact to the "Providence of God" The fog came down and covered all the troop movements in the boats. But for that fog the Brits could have destroyed the entire Colonial Army.

And what about the battle of Midway? Our planes were inferior to the Japs, our pilots more inexperienced, and our torpedoes sucked. Almost all the torpedo squadrons were destroyed one after another after another. Then at the very right moment, at the very right set of conditions those dive bombers "happened" upon the japs with their proverbial pants down. I knew a saintly old woman from my church who had a husband there, floating in the water for hours on end before his rescue and she told me the Lord impressed upon her to pray for him during this exact time... Point being- Americans prayed through that war.

These two incidents are just two- many more could be discussed. Things have many times just gone our way as Americans over and over again, at just the right time...

I attribute it all to Providential Grace.

I lived in India for a while, they are a democracy and they have capitalism, but it has not worked out for them very well. When I was there for a little over a year it was obvious and common knowledge that the whole societal structure ran on bribes; from the police to the building inspector. After I left the BombayStock Market several years later totally collapesed... internal corruption.

I believe that free market capitialism only works among the honest and the godly. You have to have some honor and honesty and justice worked into the fabric of the society if folks will trust one another, make loans, pay them back, etc. You can see our system coming undone every day as we see our moral decline.

I know I annoy some folks here, I understand that, sorry if I do as a lot of nice interesting folks come here and I guess I have worn out my welcome with a few of them. I like the counter argument, it makes me think, but for what it is worth I believe not only that God's grace made us great, but I think his withdrawal of his Providential Grace will be our total undoing. And I think it will be sooner rather than later. Towel head nuke, (God forbid)

in my opinion,

we began to go wrong when the cold war started... we began to accept that results justified means..... we accepted and promoted the idea that we could manipulate the world with covert violence and subterfuge..... and we believed that we would not be affected as a nation.....

now we glorify the covert actions groups that their initial promulgators hoped that we'd never know existed..... people raise their children to the ideal of the elite covert warrior..... we idolize the ninja, who were a criminal caste, and whom their own mothers refused to acknowledge their relationship to... we've made a hero of the sniper, of all things, because he is useful in the world that we have created.....
in short, we call bad good, until we don't know the difference...... john w

it's a leadership thing