To me it's always sad to hear about people trusting non-existent super-natural beings - when they should be listening to scientists.

Here's the sad story - both for the leader - and his followers.

The lesson?

Never drink the cool-aid.

Even after an eruption alert was issued and most villagers on the slopes of Java's Mount Merapi had been evacuated, 83-year old Mbah (grandfather) Maridjan stayed put.

The spiritual "guardian" of the mountain, his battle to tame one of Indonesia's most active volcanoes ended on Wednesday when he was buried by the mountain's thick ash.

He was reportedly found dead in a prayer position in his house, as rescuers also dug out more than two dozen more victims in the area - many who had also refused to leave.

In the wake of the eruption, houses and fields were left blanketed in thick, white ash, while leaves had been singed off trees.

Villagers say they will mourn the loss of a respected elder who was as important to them as the mountain itself.

The mountain is seen as sacred in the region, seen as the home of ancient Javanese spirits.

Located on the outskirts of the city of Yogyakarta on Java Island, it regularly causes small eruptions in the area.

Mount Merapi is seen as sacred in the region.
For years Maridjan had led ceremonies at the volcano, dispersing rice or flowers in or around the crater in an effort to appease spirits.

Maridjan believed he had a duty to the late sultan of Yogyakarta, Hamengkubuwono IX, who had appointed him for this purpose.

If there were to be an eruption, many villagers believed Maridjan would be warned in a vision.

Local beliefs are a mix of Islam, Indonesia's most predominant religion, and those dating from the island's Hindu-Buddhist period.

One tradition is the annual Labuhan ceremony, an auspicious event where the palace makes offerings to spirits, including the Goddess of the South Sea, Kanjeng Ratu Kidul.

It was Marijan who helped ensure such rituals were upheld.

Now that he's no longer around, who's going to look after Merapi?� It is not the first time the old man had defied warnings from the authorities about the volcano.

In 2006, when Mt Merapi last erupted, Maridjan even went closer to the crater, to meditate.

At the time, he told one journalist: "I'm not afraid because it's my duty.

"I'm like a soldier - they are never scared," he added.

Perhaps it came as less of a surprise then, when this time, despite government warnings, Mbah Maridjan decided that it was important to stay.

One rescue worker said that Maridjan was adamant in his refusal to leave his home village of Kinahrejo, just 5km (three miles) from the crater.

"I'm so used to being at home, it's better for me to just stay here and pray," Maridjan reportedly told him.

A journalist meanwhile perished trying to warn the old man to leave, according to local reports.

Maridjan was not the only one who could not bring themselves to leave, and rescuers say they fear the death toll may rise.

"I keep thinking about what's happening up there, with my cows, my property," said Hadi Sumarmo, who has a farm in Srumbung, a village 5km from the crater's mouth.

"I just want to go back to check. If I hear sirens, I'll get out again quickly."

For many survivors, the region will not be the same without their spiritual protector.

"To us, Maridjan is as important as Merapi. Now that he's no longer around, who's going to look after Merapi?" Wanto, 56, a farmer, told AFP news agency.

"What happens if there's another eruption?"

But, according to the Jakarta Globe, it was not a shock to the Yogyakarta palace, who had been warned of Maridjan's fate from a premonition.

"We had known long before it happened that Mbah Maridjan would be taken by Merapi," the newspaper quoted Gusti Prabukusumo, the brother of the current sultan, as saying.

"Now that he's gone, we have to choose a new gatekeeper soon."

You are soooooo superior to the rest of us.

Thank you for enlightening us.

BMT

brian is a genius!

Like the global warming scientists. miles

BCBrain,

If your faith gets you through the daily grind, I have no objection, do you? Better to have faith and not need it than to lack faith and find out you needed it. Common sense works well when combined with faith. BLIND faith is another matter altogether and can be fruitless when other options are available. Maybe in this case it is just God's way of cleansing the gene pool.

A reguler Instine!

Come on, Brian. The scientific method can tell us only very little about the world in which we live and its history.

He preaches atheism like it's a religion.

What a hippocrit. laffin'.

Maybe God wanted him to die?

Do you really believe that? If you do, how do you get through your average day?

Brian,
Don't wait 'till the eleventh hour to realize you need to talk to God. Those that do usually die at 10:30.

I really like that quote...

Did you hear it before, or is that an original?

Brian, you are SUCH an azzhole.

I've heard it before.

I guess I'm a little glad folks like Columbus, Galileo, and Copernicus DIDN'T listen to scientists.!

just watched an interesting entertainment snippet on the history channel...said columbus was in search of a lower-cost spice route to the far-east.

he must of been a republican?

Come on, that's a pretty weak incite, !

At 83 it is likely he has more experience with the volcanoe & mountain than most, including you and the scientists. Your own post states his faith carried him through at other times.

At 83 it is likely his faith has been tested more than most.

At 83 he might have known something about his health.

At 83 maybe he was just tired of taking care of the mountain.

At 83 maybe he realized his duty was done, and it was time to take up milking cows, in another world of course. (that scenario stands only if the cows perished of course)

At 83 not knowing his beliefs and faith personally, maybe faith was telling him it was time to reincarnate, as a cow of course. (see graph preceding this one)

At 83 maybe he realized his strength and faith needed youth to tame the mountain. And who knows, just maybe his faith and prayer did tame the mountain.

At 83 due to his faith and fulfillment of duty, perhaps he had a premonition about those who perished with him we know nothing about now that he has passed.

Whole lot of scenarios we can invent about this man and event, other than he drank Kool-aid.

....just funning ya'!

I imagine that the scientists could invent a real potent cool aid. Prolly make some folks believe in neverlution!

Our buddy Brian must be "god" if he "knows" God doesn't exist. Talk about "blind faith". God doesn't apparently fit into his world view therefore He doesn't exist. Must be nice to be the center of the universe. Still wish him well and a good hunting season.
The beauty of true faith (not an animistic witch doctor) is that it's not incompatible with with "science" but realizes that each will eventually complement the other. But those who blindly trust in "science" will follow blindly as an archeologist makes a "missing link" out of a pigs tooth as the early evolutionists did. But since they were "scientists", they were the voice of absolute truth....right???
I think Brian's biggest arguments actually lie with the thousands of scientists in medicine, biology, chemistry, physics etc who have a genuine belief in God. Who wouldn't want to discover the mysteries of God's creation and answer previously unanswered questions.
I rather think it is part of being made in the image of God that drives us to exploration in any number if scientific endeavors, as well as to "create" things out of what the world has given us. Science, art and knowledge is simply a manifestation of Gods characteristics put into man. Creativity and the quest for knowledge is a natural manifestation of being created by an Intelligent Creator that stamped his immage in the human soul.
The problem for Brian is that if he acknowldges there may even be a "God", then that could imply he may have some responsibility to recon with the same. But for someone who wishes to answer to no one but himself, athiesm is the "easy way out" and provides even an illusion of being "intellectually superior". Everybody needs to choose for themselves what to put their trust in, "but for me and my house, we will trust in the Lord". I see no conflict with science, intellegence, or truth in coming to this conclusion.

Coming from you - you can't believe the size of the smile you just put on my face!

You can't be fully human if stories like this - don't make you a little perturbed.

I mean let's face the truth everyone. When people die, ignoring scientists advice - because they had FAITH some old man in the clouds is going to save them - it's just damn sad. I've known of kids who died - because their "believing" parents thought their kids didn't need a blood transfusion - FAITH was going to save them. It didn't.

In Canada, we've had kids taken from parents who wouldn't try chemotherapy - or radiation - because FAITH was going to save their child. It wouldn't.

It was FAITH that motivated the 9/11 murderers. It was FAITH that motivated the Ayatollah's death squads. It's FAITH that motivates the Taliban. It's FAITH that motivates the Chechens that blew up that school in Russia. It was FAITH motivated the man that murdered the Vancouver gynecologist. It was FAITH that motivated the Conquistadors to murder the original North Americans. It was FAITH that murdered so many during the Spanish Inquisition. It was FAITH that motivated the Salem witch trials. It was FAITH that motivated the Bali bombers. It was FAITH that caused the murder of the men serving on the USS Cole. Today the men in Iraq trying to kill US forces and the ones trying to kill US and Canadian forces in Afghanistan are all motivated by the same thing - FAITH.

FAITH - in what does not exist.

Get mad all you want, call me all the names you want.

It won't change the truth.

Some people can't handle the truth.

You predicate your supposition with Earthly Death being a bad thing.


One's man's truth....

Just saying.


John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.

Atheism ain't the issue.

Your butt-headed self-righteous attitude and tactics are the issue.

BMT

The one thing those three great men shared - was the disapproval of an "infallible" church.

Ironic isn't it.

I heard it from my dad as he was dying from lung cancer in 1998. He was a Roman Catholic Deacon and told me he felt fortunate to have such a close relation to God because those who wait until the eleventh hour................ I often wondered if he heard it somewhere or if was is own thought. But if others have heard it, it answers that question.

Bob

Funny how when religious people try and tell people what to believe - it isn't considered "self-righteous" to preach what they believe in. But when an atheist does it - the name calling begins!

Why are atheists so insecure that they feel the need to make posts like this? Not enough faith in your own beliefs? Searching for support? Reminds me of the militant vegetarians.

Of course, once Stalin, Mao, et al. got rid of faith, and based everything on science, no one ever died again. Too bad those fellers had to die.

NEEDLESS death - is, to me, a bad thing - for people anyways.

Brian is a athiest troll.

We have our share of Christian "trolls" around here - I believe in balance.

It's a FORUM - it's supposed be all about spirited discussion.

You have the same zealous faith, just in a different god. What you and your "church" forget is that God gave us all a brain. If the spiritual leader made the decision not to leave that is his choice he made with his brain. You see, God also gave us free will. That also covers your ass as well.

Bless your hot little pegan soul .. BP...

Here's one of the aspects I see about my Christianity. If I'm wrong then I've lead a good and decent life.

But if you are wrong then you are Plucked!

If not believing in god is a religion - then not collecting stamps must be a hobby!

No name calling here. I just would like to know why on earth would you care if someone holds beliefs in a higher being? I don't care one way or another if you believe or you do not. Unless you can tell me something different I'll just have to assume that you are just jerking peoples chains, and if so, you apparently do a very good job of it.

I'm praying for an end to all volcanoes.

hmm? maybe it's just a chemical reaction of some kind? a phase-change chemistry?

the stars switch on at night, and the Sun switches on during the day? it's all a chemical reaction, right?

what is the basic issue, life after death? should we explore whether that's a selfish issue or not?

heh, i'm selfish, and i know it.

and then the trade-offs begin: how many souls would i be willing to die for?

and more importantly, can or does one ever recieve an infinity of heaven or hell, from a mere 80 years, plus or minus, spent being a biologic male or female down here on the Earthen?

is God an Economizer, or not?

it's an Experiment, y'all. the test is intense. and only X percent gets a passing grade.

No - I'll just be dead. I'll experience a total lack of thought. Like I do when I sleep - like I did when I was first growing in the womb. I'll just return to the earth - from whence I came.

Bingo.

I care when people die - needlessly.

re�li�gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled
[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

�noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8. Archaic

You like stamp collecting?

BP...

name calling, and personal insults are just oh so wrong.

we can all agree to disagree, but personal insults take it a mite too far, imho.

unless one is breathing a higher octane air than another, then there's no way to justify name calling, ever.

we're all volunteers...offering perspective as we best understand it. and it's fun to argue about the pay-offs of 80 years of biologic life down here on the Earthen.

It was SIN that motivated the 9/11 murderers. It was SIN that motivated the Ayatollah's death squads. It's SIN that motivates the Taliban. It's SIN that motivates the Chechens that blew up that school in Russia. It was SIN motivated the man that murdered the Vancouver gynecologist. It was SIN that motivated the Conquistadors to murder the original North Americans. It was SIN that murdered so many during the Spanish Inquisition. It was SIN that motivated the Salem witch trials. It was SIN that motivated the Bali bombers. It was SIN that caused the murder of the men serving on the USS Cole. Today the men in Iraq trying to kill US forces and the ones trying to kill US and Canadian forces in Afghanistan are all motivated by the same thing - SIN.

[/quote]

What I wanna know is how we gonna work evolution into this conversation?

And a pit bull.
And a [bleep].
And tazers.
And....

Eugenics came from trusting science. Thanks for playing...

There are far too many folks here who automatically start personal attacks on people they disagree with.

How pathetic.

Here's a clue...if your only response to a post is name-calling, you lose.

BrianBC the truckin froll

Hang around a while.

The 100th time BCBrian makes a post insulting beleivers y'all might figure out who the troll is.

BMT

and on that note.

Behaving as though the religious rituals of some ancient tribal cult has anything to do with faith in the Creator-God and throwing it out here for "discussion" is somewhat less than a well baited hook.

If not believing in god is a religion - then not collecting stamps must be a hobby!

That is exactly right. Some do have difficulty understanding what that means though. Think perogative, might help you to understand. Has to do with individuals and groups.

I'm assuming you fit into the individual or group category though.

Oh, I imagine he knew the science... at 83, running from death isn't all it's cut out to be... or all that comforting... to some.

Kent

Brian, are you implying that the spirits in the mountain took
the old man as some kind of sacrifice or something?

No - I'll just be dead. I'll experience a total lack of thought. Like I do when I sleep - like I did when I was first growing in the womb. I'll just return to the earth - from whence I came.


Wow, that reminds of the dust to dust thing I read in a book.

Sounds like faith to me, since there would be a good bit of science going on after your death. You likely would not be aware of it though, since you are dead.

Then again maybe you will be aware of it. That science thing you know, all about molecules, atoms, even ash, and other scientific stuff. Still sounds like some kind of faith, either way it goes.

OK, then my question is, if you think (know) Brian is trolling, why respond? What does it get you?

To tell the truth, when I see people reacting so blatantly to a troll I just have to laugh...

And boy, are you guys easy to troll.

Well, I really do like to drink Kool-Aid at times.

Please note it is spelled differently than BCBrian spelled it.

If at all possible for you, please go back and read his original post, looking for incitement for some here, and not discussion.

If you can not see that, then my words can not help you.

Was thinking the same thing. And Christianity goes well beyond just believing in a Creator-God. It goes to the Lamb of God dying for the creation that purposely turned their back on the Lord, and lived for self and sin.

Yep.
I almost said "and His Son" but cut it a little shorter for brevity's sake.

Figured it'd land on faithless deaf ears, anyway

He's right about one thing though, it's a shame to see people die like that.

Brian, the reason the old man stayed was he believed it was his duty to do so. We know you don't understand faith, but don't you understand duty? We are free because those brave heros before us, and also now, understood duty. Why mix the two? Just to have another opportunity to bash those of faith? Well, this was not a faith issue, but one of duty to a respected dignitary who had appointed him to a task he took serious pride in.

Exemplify some class. I believe you can. You're a pretty good guy and quite informative regarding shooting sports. Stick to what adds to the forum and quit trying to pry folks from their faith. You won't be successful against something some of us are more certain of than that which we can see, hear and touch.

You are not the least bit sad. Its just a pretext for you to condemn everyone else's religion---while your's gets a pass. Hypocrite.

lol


83 year old man decided to sit it out and put his faith in his maker

poor dumb bastid, missed the best year(s)??? of his life according to BC


I got no problem that you don't believe BC, why you got a problem with folks that do and sometimes choose a different path than you would?


for all we know the poor old guy may have wished it happened when he was 78 if that was when he got his last piece of azz

The last near death experience i had was last July when I hit a black bear on my motorcycle ( killed the bear outright)was off work 6 weeks due to injuries. But I have to tell ya' during the event I had no fear, no feeling that I had to save my wife who was with me, no nothing other than lets stick handle ourselves out of this situation, which we did and she sustained no injuries at all. We repaired the bike and rode 3 hours home after that. i had some pain so a few slaps of bacardi helped. people , relatives asked if that changed my/our outlook on this thing called life......The collective answer is no, we do and will do what we have always done, my wife has attributed the minimized damage and not getting killed to my younger days spent on a dirt bike( really helps in the riding dept). Some eluded to the thought that GOD some how helped these two atheist survive . maybe so , but I did not get any devine sense of it.

Just an old story that maybe fits in here somewhere, somehow - An old fellow was sitting on his porch as the flood waters rose to his second step. A neighbor came along on his IH MTA and suggested the fellow jump on and ride to higher ground. The fellow declined, with the comment that God would take care of him. Later, two guys came by in a 14-foot Lund to find the fellow sitting on his second-floor deck with water lapping at his feet. Their offer to take him to higher ground was declined on the grounds that God would take care of him. Still later, some National Guardsmen in a Huey offered to lift him off the roof from which he was dangling his feet in the water. Naturally, he declined, certain that God would take care of him. When he reached the Pearly Gates, he demanded an audience with the Head Guy and upon being ushered into his presence, demanded to know why He had not come to his rescue. To this, God replied, "Who do you think sent the tractor, the boat, and the helicopter?"

That's a good one...!

well, the Indonesian dude at least got warmed....the rest of us...not so much

RatherBHuntin,

In order to reasonably declare there is no Creator God, one would have to be omnipresent to verify God is not hiding behind a galaxy somewhere in the universe. Omnipresence would require omnipotence. And being everywhere would not do any good unless omniscience was not part of the deal to know everything to know God is or is not out there. If someone did in fact possess these properties, then they would be God and God would then exist!!

YEP !

"Evolution"...a very convenient philosophy that Hitler used to justify murdering millions he felt were "inferior" and thus supported "Nature's" concept of survival of the fittest and purifying the "best potential" breeding concept of the Arian race. Nature itself (science-evolution) he felt, supported his "righteous" pursuits of genocide.
As long as there is sinful mankind on the earth, there will always be evil, war, injustice, and all manner of selfishly motivated ambitions that victimize others. It can be done in the name of "science", religion, or any other convenient framework that supports their end goals but it has nothing to do with invalidating the existance of a Holy and Just God whom I believe to have revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ and proved it by raising Him from the dead.
Hard to believe that the same deciples that disowned Jesus at his death would all suddenly change to become bold proclaimers of his ressurection and eventually become martyrs for what they would have known was a lie, had it not been true. Especially when you consider the apostle Paul who killed early Christians with zeal, having suddenly converted to Christianity and preached Christ for the remainder of his life (dispite constant persecution) before being put to death for his faith by the Ceasar.

It is said that God helps those who help themselves.

Just he other day I heard Rush Limbaugh, an acknowledged believer in a Christian God, say the same thing.

I always figured if that's the case than why do I need God at all. I'll admit that sometimes I've wondered if there is some super natural being out there looking out for me but I also know that if I want a hole dug I have to dig it myself because God isn't going to lift a shovel full of dirt.

As to duty, the only person I'm duty bound to is myself and my own self-interest. I gave up being duty bound to any cause, ideology, group, government, politician, or super natural being.

And one last thing, one man's faith is another man's superstition.

Furprick, this diatribe is not meant necessarily to you. I just used your post for inspiration to rant.

'Spirited', he said. Unintentional or not, that was sweet!

So would it then be fair to say that every person who has committed suicide in the history of the world died because they had a lack of faith that things would work themselves out? How many victims are dead because of a lack of faith?

One thing we can trust, someday our present ignorance will make us look just as foolish those who follow "ancient", "antiquated" spirit based beliefs. That has been constant. The safest method is to get out before you commit any more foolish blunders for which your ignorance will be exposed by posterity. Of course, checking out now assumes there are no negative consequences in the hereafter.

Yep.
Lots of people say it.
Where they got it I'll never know.
It ain't in the Bible.

Only difference is, superstition isn't Biblical.

Actually I lied to ya in my last post, I do know where that saying came from. Just the same as I know the origin of superstition...

And luck...

Well Brian, since you are the same azzhole that tried to justify the muslims attacking us on 9-11, your opinion means nothing. Also, if you don't see the light before they start throwing dirt on your coffin, global warming will be the least of your concerns.

So people aren't entitled to have their own beliefs?

People can believe whatever they choose to believe. What many fail to account is that based on what they choose to believe about The Lord, the day of reckoning can have some fairly dire eventualities.

So believe what you want, but make sure that it contains "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures."

All your hyperbole is based around a premise of needless death?

Do praytell, explain what needless is, especially to a Christian.

Needless, I say, is spending your time on this rock stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the gift you have been offered by the Lord God Almighty.

Needless will be your eternal plight, IMO, and I pray that before you suffer an untimely exit from this life, you reconcile your animosity to the Provider.

And it IS a choice, too. Often times I hear people say that they don't believe but it isn't true. Truth is they've chosen to believe something different.

There are no voids in belief. Only choices.

I've never met an athiest who had enough self honesty to admit what is apparent to all those around him , and that is that he has crowned himself as Lord of the Universe .

He's just following in his father's footsteps.

"I will raise my throne above that of the Most High God."

It's a counterfeit crown. For everything single thing God invented, the devil provides a counterfeit.

And it's all based on that one choice...

Of course I believe that, Brent. Suggest you do a little research into the scientific method. I'll even get you started; in order to do science on something it must be observable, repeatable and falsifiable.

(Regret it's taken me so long to reply. Work has been crazy busy lately.)

Well, he did do pretty good with this:
I care when people die .........

Until he added this:
- needlessly.

Quite frankly, not sure what he is saying about anything other than himself,........ another attempt to tell others what they need. I do think it shows a weakness in his belief in science.

For those of you who understood the lesson of,".........turn away from those you can not help."
and the, ".........do not discourage your brother......", hope you are better at the righteous thing than I am.

And for many of us the Bible is mythology and superstition.

Who says? You have no empirical proof of what you say. To say that if some of us don't believe what you say we are cursed is no different than a black witch issuing a curse. It is interesting to note that no white witch would ever curse anyone but Christians do it all the time.

Well, we've never met - but I wear no crown. In fact, I believe the universe is my creator, and I believe I am subject to all the laws of the universe. In fact, if you really want to know what I believe in (Scientific Pantheism) you could look it up here.

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/index.htm

I still find it interesting that when the Christians on board write posts trying to influence people towards their own belief - it's a good thing. But when an atheist, pantheist, deist - or a person of any any other faith for that matter does it here - he's a "troll" for attempting to trying to influence people towards what he believes in - complete with the name-calling, anger and outrage.

To me, that in itself, is an interesting reflection on the actual character of many of the self-described Christians that we have here around at the fire.

If that's how Christians act - it's one more reason why I don't want to be part of that club.

Dude . . .

That means you are not an Atheist.

BMT

If I started multiple threads over time with the common theme that atheists are ignorant morons,thereby setting myself well above them,I would expect the atheists to dump on me. And I wouldn't play the victim card.

What if you started threads saying why you think Christianity is a good belief? Or, how it helped you?

Scientific Pantheists don't believe in a god. That - by definition - means they are atheists.

God - is what we DON'T believe in.

Scientific Pantheism - is what we DO believe in.

Why do pantheists believe in pantheism? There are several compelling reasons.

1. Most traditional religions have elements which are hard to believe or to reconcile with common sense, evidence or modern science. Most pantheists are reared in another religion, and as they mature come to question what they have been taught. This leads many people to atheism or humanism.

2. Atheism and humanism don't suffer from the logical or empirical problems of traditional religions - but many people find them too cold and dry. They don't provide a sense of positive belonging to nature and the universe.

3. Nearly everyone feels religious feelings when looking at nature or the night sky. Most people explain those feelings in terms of the religion they were taught as children.

Pantheism believes that those feelings are older and more basic than any traditional religion: they are a natural part of our existence as natural material beings. They are a recognition of our participation and belonging as members of nature and the universe.

Pantheism takes those feelings as its basic foundation.

Pantheists believe that the Universe and God are identical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

Here are some other famous Pantheists - and their own thoughts.

Albert Einstein
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

Margaret Atwood
"god is not the voice in the whirlwind - god is the whirlwind"

Mikhail Gorbachev
"I believe in the cosmos. All of us are linked to the cosmos. So nature is my god. To me, nature is sacred. Trees are my temples and forests are my cathedrals."

Sitting Bull
"Every seed is awakened and so is all animal life.It is through this mysterious power that we too have our being and we therefore yield to our animal neighbours the same right as ourselves, to inhabit this land."

Stephen Hawking
Larry King: Do you believe in God?
Stephen Hawking:
"Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the law of the universe."
Larry King Live, December 25, 1999

Carl Sagan
"A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge."
Pale Blue Dot

Henry David Thoreau
"We are enabled to apprehend at all what is sublime and noble only by the perpetual instilling and drenching of the reality that surrounds us. We can never have enough of nature."

I'd submit that self-identified "SCIENTIFIC PANTHEISTS" hold a different view.

Why he has nothing on Harry Truman, he never left Mount St Helens either.

At least they found his body. They never did find Harry's body after Mount St Helens erupted or any of the others who died on the mountian that day in May here in Washington.

That would be a different matter, would it not?

I do see your point.

Religion and belief are two different things, you can have one without the other.

Kent

this is a hugely interesting discussion. only the internet at this point in time could empower such a discussion.

everything from the monotheistic god, through various degrees to the pantheist view...and the secular humanists too.

having grown up in a church that preached that the throne of god was hand-hewn from redoak, it was years before i decided the Throne was really hand-hewn from whiteoak...leaving the contenders for redoak thrones totally out in the cold.

and of course, some of us do pursue a "personal" God. one that is bigger, better, and stronger than us. but, otherwise just like us...and if we make a mistake that version of God will likely reach down and pinch our head's off. and rightfully so.

then, there's those who walk amongst us who can live with a more "spiritual" god. one that is with us in spirit, if not otherwise.

at any rate, i don't know for certain. but, the discussion is very worthwhile to have. certainly, there'll be no general agreement, but why should there be?

zero gods, one god, three gods, a multitude of gods, how much difference is it actually going to make, after all?

as an aside once them aliens get all the gold from the earth to pave their streets with, what'll they do with the tailings, anyone know?

So who is to say it was not his time to go regardless of circumstances?????

If you need a journalist to tell you the volcano is erupting...

Just sayin

yep. synchronicity of events caused his demise, no doubt.

given the volcano, his location in proximity to it, and his unwillingness to evacuate, he was found to be in an unsustainable location. if only...

God, and/or his subordinates did all they could to save the man, no doubt. but, Angels aren't omnipotent. so there we have it. another Soul left the biological body.

BCBrian,

Do you view the concept of a Universe as the totality of what science can, has or eventually will prove/disprove?

Science says we can not destroy matter, we can only covert it.

Should there even be another universe beyond this one, then that would only expand what science has found at that point in time. It would seem to be a paradoxical end to the science approach, if science would ever prove the Universe was just there. Again, something for nothing. So again, we arrive at the veiled face of divinity.

If the Universe was just there, how does that not become a question of paradoxical nature?

Deists also claim Henry David Thoreau for whatever that's worth.

All Christians are atheists to the other religions.

Many Pagans, especially Witches, could be considered pantheists.

This Pagan believes in a monotheistic Deity also called The First Cause, Super Ultimate, The One, etc. that has two aspects, the Divine Feminine and the Divine Masculine, for whatever that's worth.

So you are an Obama supporter? ;-)

Not THAT one!!!!

Regarding the original post. Almost every large hunting forum has one.
The militant atheist.
The militant homosexual.
The militant liberal.
Even the militant animal rights fanatic.
(Edit, after poking around I forgot The militant anti-Catholic. Not sure how I could forget that one!)
Etc...
Considering as a rule, those things don't typical go with the 'typical hunter' their outspokeness runs the gamut from entertaining to yes annoying. Just take the posts for what they are worth, consider the source, and hunt on. Sometimes easier said than done, I know.
But then again, I'm one of those God fearing, heterosexual, conservative, meat eaters.... sooooo.... consider that source as well.

Some have one or more of the above traits. Great fodder for trolling in a place like this.

.

And the militant racist
Militant bigot
Militant elitist
Militant hyperconservative
Militant [bleep] - Usually in excessive numbers. 24hr being no exception.

All Christians are atheists to the other religions.

Would that be because Christians unify the prophecies of the Old Testament in the New Testament?

No, it follows the old adage that if you don't believe in my God you are an atheist.

I thought atheist meant "doesn't beleive in God".

I DO believe in the gods of other religions. The Bible speaks plenty clearly about them and who and what they are...



Not much.

Atheism can mean to not believe in any God or not believe in the other guys Gods/Goddesses. Christians believe in only one God (some would say three Gods, the Trinity) and are aware of other Gods/Goddesses of other religions but do not accept those Gods/Goddesses as equal to their God. The closes to accepting others God/Goddesses is the Catholic Church's sanctifying some Pagan Gods/Goddesses by conferring sainthood on them, i.e. Saint Bridget.



See, atheist,

That may be an old adage but it most certainly should not be remotely universally applied.
I am a Christian (Catholic). If you don't believe in the divinity of God (the Father), Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit (aka The Trinity) that does not necessarily make you an atheist in my book. It just makes you wrong. And I FULLY respect your right to be wrong!
An Atheist, is most certainly someone who has made a conscious decision to reject any teachings he/she has been exposed to and believes in no god. I find it hard to call someone who has never heard of God an Atheist although I suppose technically they could be called such. An Agnostic simply has a fear of commitment.